question about cocoa

[ljt2r]

Does it go bad? If it is kept sealed, in a dark cool place, how long will it last? I have some (embarassingly) old cocoa that I want to use.... We're talking years people, not months. :o :p

[patissac]

I googled it....15 years!:eek: This can't be right!

http://www.providentliving.com/food/shelflife.html

Some others have also said indefinetly to 24months?

[HealthyinMN]

It probably won't go "bad", but you may not get the same quality of flavor if it is really old.

[Hammster]

I googled it....15 years!:eek: This can't be right!

http://www.providentliving.com/food/shelflife.html

Some others have also said indefinetly to 24months?

The link must be referring to foods that are canned and not yet opened for the first time. Carrots and Celery = 10 years!! :eek:

[Linda in MO]

Some others have also said indefinetly to 24months?

That's what I found. I'm w/Joe though. The flavor might be off. I'd just suck it up and buy a new can.

[ljt2r]

I googled it....15 years!:eek: This can't be right!

http://www.providentliving.com/food/shelflife.html

Some others have also said indefinetly to 24months?

That same website said to boil all canned veggies for 10 MINUTES :eek: before consuming. Ugh.

Well it wasn't really the money, more that I was suddenly weirdly craving it now and I can't get to the store until tonight.... *sigh*

[ljt2r]

Embarassed ot have to clarify--it is unopened. Does that change any of your opinions? Yikes.... I really MUST be aware of what I own...

[funniegrrl]

I really don't think it would go bad. I've had open cans in the pantry for years and used them with no problem. Like herbs and spices, it might be that the flavor won't be as strong, but it shouldn't make you sick or taste bad unless it's been contaminated.

[hlburi]

I really don't think it would go bad. I've had open cans in the pantry for years and used them with no problem. Like herbs and spices, it might be that the flavor won't be as strong, but it shouldn't make you sick or taste bad unless it's been contaminated.


ummmm...every professional chef I've ever cooked with has said to throw out any herbs/spices that are over a year old. (most say 6 months). Anything after that, they are just powder. They may not make you sick but they aren't gonna do anything for any of your dishes either. :confused:

[dneilson]

I wholeheartedly agree with hlburi. Pros have told me the same thing...additionally, it's been mentioned in countless cookbooks and on the Food Network. What makes herbs flavorful are their oils. The older herbs are...the more flavor they lose.

As I posted in another thread...anything with fats/oils (once open and exposed to air) cannot be kept indefinitely. It becomes rancid AND CAN MAKE YOU ILL. Nuts and flours do become rancid over time (room temp determining how much time that takes) if not frozen or refrigerated. Same holds true for cocoa butter.

Dolores

[ljt2r]

The cocoa is fine--still rather strong actually. Although as I said, it was unopened. I was worried more about it hurting me. I have always been somewhat skeptical of the whole throw your spices out thing--if they lose strength, why not just use more of them? (Rather then throwing them away, I mean--I am not advocating buying in bulk to last a lifetime). I keep whole spices and grind them periodically when needed. But anyway... I assume if something is rancid it will actually smell bad? I have always wondered about this one, since I have kept things longer than you might think you should but nothing has ever gone rancid as far as I can tell.....

[erinlovesmarc]

I wholeheartedly agree with hlburi. Pros have told me the same thing...additionally, it's been mentioned in countless cookbooks and on the Food Network. What makes herbs flavorful are their oils. The older herbs are...the more flavor they lose.

As I posted in another thread...anything with fats/oils (once open and exposed to air) cannot be kept indefinitely. It becomes rancid AND CAN MAKE YOU ILL. Nuts and flours do become rancid over time (room temp determining how much time that takes) if not frozen or refrigerated. Same holds true for cocoa butter.

Dolores

I read somewhere that whole wheat flour has to be refrigerated or it becomes rancid...I know I read why but I can't remember now...I've been keeping it in the fridge ever since but I always wonder why white flour doesn't need to be refrigerated (or maybe it does too but it just wasn't mentioned in the article)...anyone know?

[ljt2r]

I read somewhere that whole wheat flour has to be refrigerated or it becomes rancid...I know I read why but I can't remember now...I've been keeping it in the fridge ever since but I always wonder why white flour doesn't need to be refrigerated (or maybe it does too but it just wasn't mentioned in the article)...anyone know?

I know this one! :p It's because white flour does not have the oils--the processing removes the parts that have them (the germ and bran). All whole grains should live in the freezer--although I don't always keep my rolled oats there, but I know I should. I guess I am now wondering if my cocoa should too.....

[Hammster]

I have always been somewhat skeptical of the whole throw your spices out thing--if they lose strength, why not just use more of them?


I had some ground cardamom that I'd had for around 6 months in a sealed container. What I mean is that I'd use it from time to time and reseal the container. It was kept in a cabinet away from light and heat and after 6 months, there was no aroma at all. So, I think they do wear out over time. Some may take longer than others however.

[ljt2r]

I had some ground cardamom that I'd had for around 6 months in a sealed container. What I mean is that I'd use it from time to time and reseal the container. It was kept in a cabinet away from light and heat and after 6 months, there was no aroma at all. So, I think they do wear out over time. Some may take longer than others however.

I actually keep my whole cardmom in the fridge--forget why i was advised to do this but I was. I also keep all of my whole cinnamon sticks and nutmeg in the freezer. But much of the rest don't get stored this way. But we like a lot of spices so chances are I use them decently quickly.

[ClaraB]

ummmm...every professional chef I've ever cooked with has said to throw out any herbs/spices that are over a year old. (most say 6 months). Anything after that, they are just powder. Since most herbs are only harvested once a year, what are you supposed to do for the other 6 months? It's not like herbs suddenly lose all flavor once they're 6 months (or a year) old - it's a very gradual thing. I think sometimes these chefs suffer from food snobbery :rolleyes:.

I get my spices from Penzey's and just use the sniff test - if the jar still smells like it's supposed to, I keep it. Penzey's actually scoffs at the idea of pitching your spices after 6 months and recommends the sniff test. I do generally order new spices every 1 1/2 to 2 years.

As far as the cocoa goes, if it's less than 3 years old, I'd give it a try. I just used some Penzey's dutch process cocoa that was almost 2 years old last weekend and we survived :o :) .

[avariell]

sometimes you really start to wonder how people survived before expiration dates...
i personally think we are total slaves to the producers - if a spice smells good, use it. if it smells neutral, throw it out. what happens on the 6 month and one day date? is it any worse off than the day the bottle turned 6 months? it just seems wasteful. i guess this is my little pet peeve... but i think we are a little crazy in the US about food spoiling (and germs but that's for another post).

[ljt2r]

Since most herbs are only harvested once a year, what are you supposed to do for the other 6 months? It's not like herbs suddenly lose all flavor once they're 6 months (or a year) old - it's a very gradual thing. I think sometimes these chefs suffer from food snobbery :rolleyes:.

I get my spices from Penzey's and just use the sniff test - if the jar still smells like it's supposed to, I keep it. Penzey's actually scoffs at the idea of pitching your spices after 6 months and recommends the sniff test. I do generally order new spices every 1 1/2 to 2 years.

As far as the cocoa goes, if it's less than 3 years old, I'd give it a try. I just used some Penzey's dutch process cocoa that was almost 2 years old last weekend and we survived :o :) .

I agree. :)

For the record, the unopened cocoa was good--and it was like 5-7 yrs old (!!! :o ). BUT it was unopened.

[funniegrrl]

ummmm...every professional chef I've ever cooked with has said to throw out any herbs/spices that are over a year old. (most say 6 months). Anything after that, they are just powder. They may not make you sick but they aren't gonna do anything for any of your dishes either. :confused:

ummmm ... I didn't say you SHOULD use old herbs/spices, I was just saying they weren't harmful and could still be used, even if they potentially wouldn't taste quite as good as something purchased the day before. Besides, how do you know how old something is when you buy it? Sure, lots of products now have "best by" or packing dates on them, but unless they do, who's to say that that bottle of cinnamon didn't leave the plant a year ago and has been sitting on various docks and shelves ever since?

Personally, my palate can't tell the difference between 6-month-old and 12-month-old herb/spices. They aren't "just powder" -- they do lose potency and don't provide optimum flavor, but that doesn't mean they are worthless. If I'm lookin' to toss some dried basil into my spaghetti sauce, I'm not going to dither about whether it's 2 months or 2 years old. If it doesn't smell/taste as potent as I would like, I just toss in a little more. As a single person who doesn't make six figures, I can't afford to completely restock the pantry with dry goods every 6 months or year.

[avariell]

Personally, my palate can't tell the difference between 6-month-old and 12-month-old herb/spices. They aren't "just powder" -- they do lose potency and don't provide optimum flavor, but that doesn't mean they are worthless. If I'm lookin' to toss some dried basil into my spaghetti sauce, I'm not going to dither about whether it's 2 months or 2 years old. If it doesn't smell/taste as potent as I would like, I just toss in a little more. As a single person who doesn't make six figures, I can't afford to completely restock the pantry with dry goods every 6 months or year.

i completely agree.... i would love to see a side by side test of foods prepared with 6 month old spices and 12 month old spices to see if anyone actually noticed the difference.:rolleyes:

[Hammster]

I actually keep my whole cardmom in the fridge--forget why i was advised to do this but I was. I also keep all of my whole cinnamon sticks and nutmeg in the freezer. But much of the rest don't get stored this way. But we like a lot of spices so chances are I use them decently quickly.

I keep my whole nutmeg in a tiny tupperware container right in the spice cabinet and it is just fine there. The cardamom lost its punch, I think, because it was ground. If it were whole it probably would have lasted much longer. I'm lucky in that I can go to a store that sells spices in bulk by the ounce so I only need to buy a little at a time and so I use it up pretty quickly and normally they don't have a chance to go old or stale.

[ljt2r]

I keep my whole nutmeg in a tiny tupperware container right in the spice cabinet and it is just fine there. The cardamom lost its punch, I think, because it was ground. If it were whole it probably would have lasted much longer. I'm lucky in that I can go to a store that sells spices in bulk by the ounce so I only need to buy a little at a time and so I use it up pretty quickly and normally they don't have a chance to go old or stale.

I got an entire bag of whole nutmegs from Penzey's, and plus I got several of their spice box sets, which are packed with cinnamon sticks and nutmegs, so I have a lot--I am hoping the freezer preserves it all for me.

[hlburi]

Oh Good Grief! :rolleyes:

I wasn't trying to start a fight. I was trying to pass on information, which as I stated earlier, has been passed on to me by many professsional chefs. Sorry, but if someone who is IN the profession tells me something, I tend to take note (especially when I hear it from numerous sources in same said profession).

But then again, I guess I can count myself lucky because I happen to have a grocer who sells spices in bulk so I don't have to have a bunch of spices sitting on my shelf getting "dated".

[ClaraB]

Oh Good Grief! :rolleyes:

I wasn't trying to start a fight. I was trying to pass on information, which as I stated earlier, has been passed on to me by many professsional chefs. Sorry, but if someone who is IN the profession tells me something, I tend to take note (especially when I hear it from numerous sources in same said profession).

But then again, I guess I can count myself lucky because I happen to have a grocer who sells spices in bulk so I don't have to have a bunch of spices sitting on my shelf getting "dated".But you weren't passing on information, you were passing on opinions. Other people may have different opinions that are equally valid. And honestly, I don't hold the opinions of professional chefs to be any more valid than those of good home cooks such as the ones on this board.

Frankly, I would go broke if I replaced all of my 50+ spices every 6 months or even a year. I do not buy my spices in bulk because I think their quality is inferior to Penzey's, and I have no idea how long the spices have been sitting around exposed to the air. I'll keep my "dated" spices, thank you :cool:.

[hlburi]

But you weren't passing on information, you were passing on opinions. Other people may have different opinions that are equally valid. And honestly, I don't hold the opinions of professional chefs to be any more valid than those of good home cooks such as the ones on this board.

Frankly, I would go broke if I replaced all of my 50+ spices every 6 months or even a year. I do not buy my spices in bulk because I think their quality is inferior to Penzey's, and I have no idea how long the spices have been sitting around exposed to the air. I'll keep my "dated" spices, thank you :cool:.

So I guess that would be the equivalent of OPINIONS expressed by people in the medical field, etc? Maybe the equivalent of not using meds after a certain date or cleaning out your makeup after a certain amount of time? Just because it's an OPINION then doesn't mean it's not valid or doesn't have merit. Sorry. I stand by my OPINION. I'll stick with the professional chefs. My philosophy is, if I'm going to the trouble of making a dish and i've spent $XX amount of dollars on the rest of the ingredients, why wouldn't I spend .05 cents to buy some fresh bay leaves because the ones in my cupboard (assuming there are any there) are older than dirt??? :rolleyes:

Or maybe some people don't realize that spices can and do go bad?? Why is it wrong to let people know this??

But go ahead and use your 6 year old cloves if you want to. I'm certainly not going to stop any one.

But if anyone would like INFORMATION backed up by a lot of professional chefs (who are probably getting kickbacks from the Spice industry, why on earth else would they say such things! ;) ) then it's there for the taking and it's free.

[avariell]

a lot of professional chefs recommend a lot of stuff that the majority of home cooks ignore.

[ClaraB]

So I guess that would be the equivalent of OPINIONS expressed by people in the medical field, etc? Maybe the equivalent of not using meds after a certain date or cleaning out your makeup after a certain amount of time? Just because it's an OPINION then doesn't mean it's not valid or doesn't have merit. Sorry. I stand by my OPINION. I'll stick with the professional chefs. Speaking as an RN, it's actually not an equivalent concept - expired medications undergo chemical changes and deterioration that can make them useless or even dangerous. That's not opinion, that's fact. Herbs and spices don't become dangerous, just less potent, and the change doesn't happen overnight.


My philosophy is, if I'm going to the trouble of making a dish and i've spent $XX amount of dollars on the rest of the ingredients, why wouldn't I spend .05 cents to buy some fresh bay leaves because the ones in my cupboard (assuming there are any there) are older than dirt??? :rolleyes: I agree that old spices are a waste of time - we just disagree on when spices need to be replaced. We also disagree on where spices should be bought - if I'm buying bay leaves, I'm going to be spending more than $.05 on them in bulk. Again, if you're buying your spices in bulk, how do you know they're not already outdated when you buy them?


Or maybe some people don't realize that spices can and do go bad?? Why is it wrong to let people know this??Nothing wrong with letting people know that spices can go bad, but again, I disagree that they go bad in 6 months. Nothing wrong with me giving my opinion, either :D.


But go ahead and use your 6 year old cloves if you want to. I'm certainly not going to stop any one. My, aren't we a bit testy this morning :p? Actually, I replace my spices every 1-2 years, but thanks for giving me permission to use old ones :D.


But if anyone would like INFORMATION backed up by a lot of professional chefs (who are probably getting kickbacks from the Spice industry, why on earth else would they say such things! ;) ) then it's there for the taking and it's free.Professional chefs are cooking to a much more exacting standard than most home cooks do. Therefore it would stand to reason that they use the very freshest ingredients possible, and since money is not as much of a concern to them, it would make sense for them to replace their spices more often. Although I still think it's foolish for them to replace spices every 6 months when they'll just be getting "new" spices from the same year's harvest. They're also probably not getting their spices from the bulk bin at the local Safeway, either. Again, most home cooks can't afford to replace their spices that often, and probably don't need to, either, since the difference in food at 6 months or 1 1/2 years just isn't going to be that great. Higher quality spices are also going to last longer than cheap spices do.

[ljt2r]

If you really want the freshest, best spices you ought to buy whole, toast and then grind anyway. But that sure wouldn't stop me from using up older (yes older than 6 mos) spices. Freshly gound toasted spices are better than anything you can buy in a store. Just pointing out that there are all levels, and I doubt anyone here actually toasts and grinds fresh for each dish.

[Hammster]

I got an entire bag of whole nutmegs from Penzey's, and plus I got several of their spice box sets, which are packed with cinnamon sticks and nutmegs, so I have a lot--I am hoping the freezer preserves it all for me.

Yeah, in those quantities that Penzeys provides, freezing would make sense. As the majority of the bulk spices where I shop are in the .59 to .79 per ounce range, I can buy a small amount and replenish on a regular basis. The spices at that store do rotate through pretty fast so I know they don't sit in the jars on the store shelves very long so they are pretty fresh.


I think what's important and maybe it's been missed (or I just missed it), but just smell (and even taste) your spices before you go to use them. I'm not a slave to the date on the container. And as it turns out the cocoa was fine because it was sealed in its original packaging all these years. I was amazed that the ground cardamom had absolutely no aroma at all after roughly 6 months of regular use. Luckily I only had a small amount left and so I didn't feel bad throwing it away.



Avariell: a lot of professional chefs recommend a lot of stuff that the majority of home cooks ignore.

Amen to that.

[ljt2r]

Yeah, in those quantities that Penzeys provides, freezing would make sense. As the majority of the bulk spices where I shop are in the .59 to .79 per ounce range, I can buy a small amount and replenish on a regular basis. The spices at that store do rotate through pretty fast so I know they don't sit in the jars on the store shelves very long so they are pretty fresh.


I think what's important and maybe it's been missed (or I just missed it), but just smell (and even taste) your spices before you go to use them. I'm not a slave to the date on the container. And as it turns out the cocoa was fine because it was sealed in its original packaging all these years. I was amazed that the ground cardamom had absolutely no aroma at all after roughly 6 months of regular use. Luckily I only had a small amount left and so I didn't feel bad throwing it away.

Yes I bought the smallest bag possible of whole nutmegs, having no idea I was soon to acquire a lot more. :eek: But freezing has worked really well since I only grate nutmeg fresh anyway.

I totally agree with you about smelling the spice--and I am also shocked your cardamom was that gone after only 6 mos. Was it a brand you had used previously (or since)? I find cardamom a difficult one since I really don't use it a lot or in large quantities. I recently threw out a bottle of it myself, deciding I had to just break down and buy a new one....

Laura

[Hammster]

I totally agree with you about smelling the spice--and I am also shocked your cardamom was that gone after only 6 mos. Was it a brand you had used previously (or since)? Laura

I was in and out of the jar pretty regularly, so that may have contributed to its early demise.

The bulk jars (think apothecary jars with a lid) at the market don't have any brands listed on them. It'll just say something like "Ground Cardamom". It'll give a price per ounce and per lb. And sometimes the label on the jar will also mention what kinds of recipes to use the spice in as well.

[ADM]

If you really want the freshest, best spices you ought to buy whole, toast and then grind anyway.

Do you *really* toast and grind ALL the spices you use in recipes? (It sounds like kindergarten make-work, to me!) Are you talking about seed spices, like cumin, sesame, celery, poppy, dill, etc? Or, do you mean spices like cardamon seed, cinnamon sticks, whole nutmegs, etc? And why would you even want to toast those? I am totally :confused:

I have several hundred cookbooks and none suggest that you should toast and grind all spices or herbs. If it has ever been suggested on Food Network, I missed it.

Do you have a referenced source I could read, for my continuing education? :) TIA!

[ljt2r]

Do you *really* toast and grind ALL the spices you use in recipes? (It sounds like kindergarten make-work, to me!) Are you talking about seed spices, like cumin, sesame, celery, poppy, dill, etc? Or, do you mean spices like cardamon seed, cinnamon sticks, whole nutmegs, etc? And why would you even want to toast those? I am totally :confused:

I have several hundred cookbooks and none suggest that you should toast and grind all spices or herbs. If it has ever been suggested on Food Network, I missed it.

Do you have a referenced source I could read, for my continuing education? :) TIA!

Well you kind of made my point for me--heavens no I don't always toast and grind--likewise I don't worry so much about the expiration date on spices. I was just saying that if you are going to insist on throwing out spices after 6 months, why aren't you (you the collective you, not you :p :eek: ) then also toasting and grinding? For the record though Tyler Florence always toasts and grinds whole spices--it is something I find rather unrealistic about him. But anyway, somewhere in this thread someone pointed out that spices (I am NOT talking about herbs) have oil which gives them flavor--when you toast them it brings it out, much like nuts. Intensifies the flavor. As far as grinding, I grind in 2 cases: when I have taken the time to toast (although you can toast ground spices as well but they are easier to burn) and when I run out of ground spices, because I do predominantly store whole spices, so as to avoid this whole debate (and bc I don't live near Penzey's :D ). When do I toast and grind? Well I ALWAYS do for curry paste --I just got into the habit and always have (and my Thai cookbooks do always call for it). I always toast my chile peppers before rehydrating in traditional Mexican recipes (once again my Mexican cookbooks do always call for it), such as chorizo--I don't ever use pre-ground chile powder in chorizo. These are all dishes that when I make I plan them in advance and take my time. I don't usually toast my spices for weeknight meals--just too lazy/pressed for time. I will grind anytime though when I run out--mostly the seeds in this case. And so I am quite aware of how much nicer they are. It's amazing how my cloves/coriander/cumin/allspice/etc smell after I have ground them. But I agree wholeheartedly that you just use more of older spices rather than throwing them away, unless they have totally lost all smell or smell wrong.

Here are some resources for you:

http://www.taunton.com/finecooking/indian-food/fbi19.asp

http://www.cooksillustrated.com/images/document/howto/ND06_Spices101.pdf