Jerry Falwell died today

[hollysmom]

Anyone have him on their list?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070515/ap_on_re_us/jerry_falwell

SSM

[mom2garret]

I do! How are we keeping track of this. I guess Escher isn't doing it anymore.............
Jodi

[Gilgamesh37]

and I'm pretty sure you're the only person who had him Mom2Garrett.

I don't know how recently Escher's been on, but last year, I don't think he did mid-year updates, did he? Just the final accounting at the end of hte year?

[funniegrrl]

I can't say I'm shedding any tears.

[SheRa]

i agree with funniegrrl. i saw this on boingboing today and was reminded of just what a jerk he really was:

Falwell's stupidest quotes, direct from hell
Bigoted religious phony Jerry Falwell went to hell today. Voices of American Sexuality collected some of the stupidest things he said while he was befouling the living world:

* “AIDS is not just God's punishment for homosexuals; it is God's punishment for the society that tolerates homosexuals”

* "It appears that America's anti-Biblical feminist movement is at last dying, thank God, and is possibly being replaced by a Christ-centered men's movement which may become the foundation for a desperately needed national spiritual awakening."

* "If you're not a born-again Christian, you're a failure as a human being."

* After the September 11 attacks Falwell said, “I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People For the American Way, all of them who have tried to secularize America. I point the finger in their face and say 'you helped this happen."

* “Christians, like slaves and soldiers, ask no questions”

* “[Homosexuals are] brute beasts...part of a vile and satanic system [that] will be utterly annihilated, and there will be a celebration in heaven.”

how can someone THAT heartless claim to be a man of god?

[Gumbeaux]

The most "right on target" quote I've seen is: "The Moral Majority is neither". ;)

[JenZen]

I went to Liberty. Jerry was my chancellor.

For all of his public blunders, he was a very good man who did more than many of us ever will.

You all should be somewhat ashamed.

[Wendy w]

I can't say I'm shedding any tears.

Me neither.

[Robyn1007]

It's hard for me to be happy that someone is dead, as there is always someone else who loved that person. But, with the kind of vile hate this man has spewed over the years I'm glad that it's one less person spewing it.

[LakeMartinGal]

It's hard for me to be happy that someone is dead, as there is always someone else who loved that person. But, with the kind of vile hate this man has spewed over the years I'm glad that it's one less person spewing it.I am totally in agreement with this!

[Lauren]

Originally Posted by Robyn1007
It's hard for me to be happy that someone is dead, as there is always someone else who loved that person. But, with the kind of vile hate this man has spewed over the years I'm glad that it's one less person spewing it.

I am totally in agreement with this!

Me too! I have no respect for him.

[Gumbeaux]

For all of his public blunders, he [Jerry Falwell] was a very good man who did more than many of us ever will.

You all should be somewhat ashamed.

Hilarious! :D

[funniegrrl]

You all should be somewhat ashamed.

I cannot and will not be ashamed for speaking against the kind of insane hate and bigotry that he espoused and preached. Not only was he a bigot, he and others of his ilk perverted the entire meaning of Christianity. He was neither a man of God nor a person who achieved anything worth achieving. He is one of the primary reasons that this country has been turned upside down. The religious right will not rest until we are no longer a republic but are an evangelical theocracy. We move closer to it every day as our rights are more and more circumscribed, as it becomes more and more acceptable to spew bile at people who aren't white male evangelicals. He is one of the fathers of this movement and HE should be the one to be ashamed.

I never revel in anyone's death, but there are those I don't choose to mourn, and he is one of them.

[charley]

The world's a better place.

Adios! (http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/load/hottopics/msg0513581226972.html?9)

[stefania4]

I really can't gloat or be glad about a death. It is a terrible shame for his family.

I do hope his hateful beliefs died with him.

[JenniferJJ]

I went to Liberty. Jerry was my chancellor.

For all of his public blunders, he was a very good man who did more than many of us ever will.

You all should be somewhat ashamed.

I find it interesting on this BB that if someone from the liberal persuasion dies, it is a great loss, despite any faults they had. If someone from the conservative side dies, we have comments like the majority on this thread.

[badunnin]

I find it interesting on this BB that if someone from the liberal persuasion dies, it is a great loss, despite any faults they had. If someone from the conservative side dies, we have comments like the majority on this thread.

Could you give me an example? Because I'm having a hard time coming up with a liberal who dealt in the type of negative, prejudiced rhetoric that Jerry Falwell dealt in that has passed and yet hailed as being a great loss.

Sincerely, A Failure As a Human Being

[Jalapeno]

I think most would consider Billy Graham to be conservative but I highly doubt you would see any negative comments about him. Then again you don't hear the same kind of crap out of his mouth as you did Falwell's...hmmmm maybe that could have something to do with it!

[Beth]

I did not care for the man, but I would feel like a hypocrit if I were to mouth off with hatred or anger the moment I heard of his death.

[testkitchen45]

Sincerely, A Failure As a Human Being

*snort* :D

(No, you're not, badunnin!! :) )

Jerry Falwell was an unusually divisive figure. As a conservative Christian, I know of no Christians who agreed with his, let's call it, "personal speaking style." His remarks were simply rude. He forgot that the NT calls us Christians to give a quiet answer for what we believe. Billy Graham is revered b/c he spreads the truth in love, not in snotty comments; he's a better picture of what Christianity teaches--a much more loving and humble way of presenting theology.

[badunnin]

I think most would consider Billy Graham to be conservative but I highly doubt you would see any negative comments about him. Then again you don't hear the same kind of crap out of his mouth as you did Falwell's...hmmmm maybe that could have something to do with it!

I would consider him to be conservative as well, and yet I have the utmost respect for Billy Graham, despite the fact that I am not Christian. I believe he is a wonderful, loving, passionate man who represents his faith and his congregation well. What does Graham have to say about Falwell's passing? "Jerry Falwell was a close personal friend for many years. We did not always agree on everything, but I knew him to be a man of God. His accomplishments went beyond most clergy of his generation. Some of my grandchildren have attended and currently attend Liberty University. He leaves a gigantic vacuum in the evangelical world. I am praying for his family, and especially the university that he headed."

According to JF, though "Billy Graham is the chief servant of Satan in America." Nice, eh?

testkitchen - thanks, I don't think I am either. ;)

[GingerPow]

Some of my grandchildren have attended and currently attend Liberty University. He leaves a gigantic vacuum in the evangelical world. I am praying for his family, and especially the university that he headed."
Billy Graham was being generous indeed. However, I wouldn't let my grandchildren or children attend Liberty University. This is the school that displays a dinosaur fossil labeled "3000 years old." :rolleyes: This may be of interest...
LU supports young-earth creationist organizations including Answers in Genesis. In Biology classes students are taught both evolution and creation. An additonal class called History of Life investigates issues of creation and evolution.

In December 1991 Creation reported, Arlton C. Murray "excavated a dinosaur for Liberty University’s museum," which proclaimed "this dinosaur was the first of its kind in any creationist museum."[21]

On October 23, 2006, evolutionary biologist Richard Dawkins spoke at Randolph College, where he was told that Liberty has on display dinosaur fossils dated a few thousand years old to correspond to young Earth creationism.[11] Dawkins criticized, "If it's really true, that the museum at Liberty University has dinosaur fossils which are labeled as being 3000 years old, then that is an educational disgrace. It is debauching the whole idea of a university. And I would strongly encourage any members of Liberty University that are here to leave and go to a proper university."[12]

Currently, the school is looking for biology teachers with "a young-earth creationist philosophy."[13] Furthermore, the school asserts "there is now mounting evidence that man and dinosaurs did indeed live on earth at the same time" and claims "the chances are good" that there were dinosaurs on board Noah's Ark.
http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache:k_dlo3wOWQ8J:en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberty_University+Dinosaur+fossils+at+Liberty+Uni versity&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=3&gl=us
I had a friend many years ago who worked in the production department of Falwell's television show called "The PTL Club." We never, ever discussed any aspect of his job, or namely, his employer. Just didn't want to go there.

Wouldn't it be fun to eavesdrop on the conversation he's having with God now that he's passed over. "Now listen Jerry - there are a few things we need to discuss...";)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerry_Falwell

[ClaraB]

I did not care for the man, but I would feel like a hypocrit if I were to mouth off with hatred or anger the moment I heard of his death. I couldn't have said it better.

[Debralynn]

hhmmm.....pondering......wings or horns?????

[stefania4]

hhmmm.....pondering......wings or horns?????
It's not up to us to decide or to know. Mr. Falwell's fate is, as it always has been and is for all of us, between him and God.

And that's precisely what bothered me so much about Falwell and his ilk; they believed they knew decisively what everyone's forwarding address would be post-mortem.

[aggie94]

I find it interesting on this BB that if someone from the liberal persuasion dies, it is a great loss, despite any faults they had. If someone from the conservative side dies, we have comments like the majority on this thread.

I think that's wholly inaccurate. To wit, the thread on Ronald Reagan's passing:

http://community.cookinglight.com/showthread.php?t=59135&highlight=reagan

Nothing but respectful comments, even from the left.

[Robyncz]

It's not up to us to decide or to know. Mr. Falwell's fate is, as it always has been and is for all of us, between him and God.

And that's precisely what bothered me so much about Falwell and his ilk; they believed they knew decisively what everyone's forwarding address would be post-mortem.


Yes, Yes, Yes!! Well said, Stefania!


I find it interesting on this BB that if someone from the liberal persuasion dies, it is a great loss, despite any faults they had. If someone from the conservative side dies, we have comments like the majority on this thread.

I think that's a gross generalization. I believe that the offense many people have taken to comments made by Falwell have little to do with conservatism and everything to do with his close-minded, mean-spirited, hate-filled attitude towards people different from him.

[Lucy Lou]

The world's a better place.

Adios! (http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/load/hottopics/msg0513581226972.html?9)


That's pretty crude, but not unexpected.

I can't be happy about this man's death or the loss to his family, even though I didn't agree with some of his beliefs. You make me grateful I'm not that kind of person.

[JenZen]

Frankly, my opinions are going to be highly unpopular on this board as it is indeed very much tilted toward the left. All of you with your haughty banter and joyous comments about someone's death think you're sitting high as horses because you're better than Falwell. Well honestly, as someone else said on here, you're no better for condemning the man and you're showing as much hatred as you believe he did.

And as for the comments on Liberty, you have no idea what you're talking about. I graduated from LU with a very-rounded world perspective. Yes, I was required to take a class on creation/evolution. So what? It was taught be some very intelligent men who believe that God created this planet ... that there is design and a designer in creation ... that there is physical proof of a biblical creation.

I'm not going to defend my education here any further. I have no need.

And frankly, there was much more to Falwell and to Liberty than what the media cares to show.

So knock it off. Find another topic. Do something better with your day than come in here and fling cheap comments.

I'm angry, and I deserve to be.

I was on the phone last night with my advisor from Liberty, and she was very upset, as is the entire campus. Whenever anyone dies, it leaves a vacancy.

[funniegrrl]

JenZen:
There is a huge difference between condemning someone for their words and actions and condemning someone because of who they are, which is what Falwell did. Falwell and his cronies make my blood boil, but -- again -- I'm not reveling in his death nor espousing hatred. Still, the occasion of his passing provides an opportunity to comment on what he said and did in his life. Since he proclaimed to be a final authority on right and wrong and what God wants, it's only natural to speculate if his sanctimoniousness is coming home to roost.

My comments aren't cheap. They are deeply held beliefs -- yes, as deeply held as your evangelical beliefs. I am horrified at the direction this country has taken in the last 15 or 20 years as the religious right has dictated the discourse and actions of government. I am appalled at the daily chipping away of our rights by social conservatives. The Bill of Rights has been torn to shreds (except, of course, the 4th amendment). There is more divisiveness and prejudice than ever. The right complains about "the liberal agenda" or "the homosexual agenda" and on and on. Those are myths, while the religious right clearly has an agenda to remake this country in their narrow-minded image.

OK, so this board leans left and you have different views. Maybe you subscribe to Falwell's party line hook, line and sinker; maybe not, maybe you're a true thinking, compassionate conservative. It doesn't matter, because this thread isn't about you, it's about him. It's funny, somehow the right always thinks that a group that has lefty tendencies is a crime against nature or something. The words "liberal" and "Democrat" are flung as an epithet rather than simply being used as a categorization. As the saying goes, reasonable people can agree to disagree. I have a dear friend who is a conservative Christian, and there are many issues where we disagree. He, however, is a reasonable person and respectful of other views, and we have had some interesting conversations. I have two other dear friends who are staunch Republicans. Again, they are reasonable, thinking people who are political conservatives but not social conservatives, and we can agree to disagree and have interesting conversations.

Most people are complex creatures. The greatest of men and women have contradictory aspects to their natures, and sometimes say and do things in private that are at odds with their public persona. That's just human, and I would argue that complexity is what makes a person more than just a cipher. (Take a look at the Founding Fathers, for example.) If Falwell was in fact more open-minded and compassionate than his public persona led the world to believe, OK, fine. But, given the constant drumbeat of his message, the lengths to which he went to say outrageous things and to try make our government conform to his public message, I would doubt that his redeeming qualities would make up for the bigotry and the attempt to slap down everyone and anyone who wasn't a straight white evangelical Christian male.

I am not ashamed to say that I not only disagreed with Falwell, I thought he was part of a group that perverted the true meaning of Christianity and is damaging to this country and Western civilization. Dead, alive, it doesn't matter. I would say it to his face if he were in front of me. I don't hate HIM -- there is no one I can think of that I truly hate -- but I DO hate what he did and said, and no apology or backtracking is necessary.

[bobmark226]

http://www.teletubbies.com/teletubbies.jpg

"Bye, bye, Jerry!"

[Gumbeaux]

http://www.teletubbies.com/teletubbies.jpg

"Bye, bye, Jerry!"


Hilarious. :D


Refresh my memory, which one is the "bad" guy. I can't tell by looking? :rolleyes:

[newtricks]

Hilarious. :D


Refresh my memory, which one is the "bad" guy. I can't tell by looking. :rolleyes:


The purple one is guilty of promoting the Bill Moyers/ Left wing Homosexual Agenda to the preschool set. Isn't it clear??;)

[Wendy w]

I believe that the purple dude that Jerry was hot and bothered about is Winky Tinky or Tinky Winky. I can't remember. I was wondering when someone was going to mention this.

Leave it to Bob. ;) LOL!

[funniegrrl]

Funny "interview" with Tinky Winky on Salon.com today. Written by their sports columnist, no less.


Tinky Winky says bye-bye to Jerry Falwell
The former TV star recalls the trauma of being called gay by the conservative preacher.

By King Kaufman

May 16, 2007 | Eight years ago the Rev. Jerry Falwell warned parents that BBC children's television star Tinky Winky was a hidden symbol of homosexuality. Falwell died Tuesday at 73, and the world wanted to talk to Tinky Winky.

"They're calling again, again, again," he said by phone from his home in Islington, in London. A spokesman said the former "Teletubbies" costar got more than 100 calls from reporters in the hour following news of Falwell's death.

"Oh dear, it's easy to say the wrong thing here," he said. "Tinky Winky sad whenever someone dies, but ..." He left it hanging there.

In a 1999 article in his National Liberty Journal headlined "Tinky Winky Comes Out of the Closet," Falwell pointed out that Winky could be taken as representing gays.

"He is purple -- the gay pride color, and his antenna is shaped like a triangle -- the gay pride symbol," Falwell wrote. "The character, whose voice is that of a boy, has been found carrying a red purse in many episodes and has become a favorite character among gay groups worldwide."

In the resulting media firestorm, gay-rights activists called for Winky to come out while Christian groups demanded the BBC fire him so that he couldn't, in Falwell's words, "role-model the gay lifestyle."

[snip]

"... at the end of the day, I'm not terribly sad, and I think a lot of people feel the same way. Jerry Falwell was a divisive person, a hateful person, and what I've tried to be all about, in the Teletubbies days and since then, has been love. I've got to keep it that way. I don't want anybody feeling good about it when it's my time for Tubby bye-bye."

http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2007/05/16/falwell_tinky/

[Jalapeno]

Sorry I missed the entire Telletubby thing. How was the purple guy promoting homosexuality? :confused:

[Jalapeno]

Oops funniegrrl and I must have been posting at the same time.

[jimjimmerjim]

Here is part of a loving obit from the lovely, caring, compassionate folks at Westboro Baptist Church, true Partners in Christ:



WBC will preach at the memorial service of the corpulent false prophet Jerry Falwell, who spent his entire life prophesying lies and false doctrines like "God loves everyone".

There is little doubt that Falwell split Hell wide open the instant he died. The evidence is compelling, overwhelming, and irrefragable. To wit:

1. Falwell was a true Calvinistic Baptist when he was a young preacher in Springfield, Missouri, and sold his soul to Free-Willism (Arminianism) for lucre.

2. Falwell bitterly and viciously attacked WBC because of WBC's faithful Bible preaching -- thereby committing the unpardonable sin -- otherwise known as the sin against the Holy Ghost.

3. Falwell warmly praised Christ-rejecting Jews, pedophile-condoning Catholics, money-grubbing compromisers, practicing fags like Mel White, and backsliders like Billy Graham and Robert Schuler, etc. All for lucre -- making him guilty of their sins.


Falwell is in Hell, Praise God!!



America, Cursed of God

http://www.godhatesamerica.com/

This has all the makings of some real entertainment.

[newcook]

What I can't understand are the bad comments about Billy Graham. What did Falwell hold against him, and why is Westboro Baptist Church calling him a backslider?

[honeygirl1971]

funniegrrl, well said...

I don't revel in anyone's death, but I am glad that voice has been silenced, finally. :cool:

[SandyM]

http://www.cagle.com/news/FarewellFalwell/images/cagle00.gif


http://www.cagle.com/news/FarewellFalwell/images/sack.jpg


http://www.cagle.com/news/FarewellFalwell/images/beeler.gif

[Lauren]

I too was remembering the Tinky Winky episode. Apparently because he carries a bag/purse, is purple and has a triangle on his head ... he's gay. :confused:

[leightx]

No doubt his family and friends are saddened by his death, but I see no reason to be. His ideas, unfortunately, didn't die with him - they live on in many of his followers, and in those that support his ideas through their donations. That is the true tragedy, IMO. :(

[Jalapeno]

I too was remembering the Tinky Winky episode. Apparently because he carries a bag/purse, is purple and has a triangle on his head ... he's gay. :confused:

Do we even know if Tinky Winky is a boy? Barney better not get caught holding someones purse or he'll have some hell to pay! ;)

[Lauren]

Do we even know if Tinky Winky is a boy? Barney better not get caught holding someones purse or he'll have some hell to pay! ;)

You're right! We don't know Tinky Winky's gender. :p

[JMM74]

No doubt his family and friends are saddened by his death, but I see no reason to be. His ideas, unfortunately, didn't die with him - they live on in many of his followers, and in those that support his ideas through their donations. That is the true tragedy, IMO. :(

Leigh, ITA. :(

[jmarie]

I have a friend who is gay. I discussed this thread with her, at length, yesterday and SHE thinks that your comments are out of line. She has always held the belief that it isn't who you are sleeping with rather than who you follow as your Lord.

She said that Jerry Falwell was practicing what he believed and never wavered from that. She said he took some hard knocks for it, but he never wavered. She said that she respected him for that even though she didn't agree with him. She said that she doesn't agree with what a lot of preachers say, but she still goes to church, when the mood hits her.

She said that it doesn't bother her what he and others think about her lifestyle...that it is her lifestyle and it is no one elses business and so why should she care ?

She said that there is one unpardonable sin and that is to sin against the Holy Spirit by not accepting Jesus as your Savior (my opinion, as well) and that the Bible teaches against a lot of other stuff including lustfullness, adultry, gluttony and more and that there isn't one person who isn't guilty of at least one of those sins talked about in the Bible and if people would stop worrtying about what other people think, their lives would be a lot easier and they would be more healthy.

And she thinks that the comments in this thread are just plain rude. That everyone has some unpopular opinion that others in their lives know about and it probably doesn't stop you from spouting it.

And my opinion (jmarie) is that you are acting exactly exactly like you complain this Jerry Falwell did, shooting off at the mouth, without regard to how others may feel about what you are saying. :( My thinking is that your thinkig is that two wrongs make a right?

Rev.Jerry Falwell wasn't a perfect man, he did a lot of good things and believe it or not, he will be missed by many, including his family.

Let him rest, please.:(

[bobmark226]

SHE thinks that...

She said that ....

She said that .....

And she thinks that....

Really, Joyce, who gives a flying f*ck what your friend thinks?

She said that there is one unpardonable sin and that is to sin against the Holy Spirit by not accepting Jesus as your Savior

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Your friend is a hypocrite who's apparently found a way to justify her sexual perversity within Christianity. Better tell her she's going to burn in hell despite her convenient rationalization, and remind her that according to Rev. Falwell, she's also responsible for over 3,000 deaths at the WTC.

Bob

[Robyn1007]

She said that it doesn't bother her what he and others think about her lifestyle...that it is her lifestyle and it is no one elses business and so why should she care ?


Really? Someone spewing hate about who a person is is something society shouldn't care about? I seem to remember a man named Adolf Hitler who spewed the same sort of vile, unfounded hate that KILLED millions of people. It is our responsibility as a society to keep the type of person that thinks that killing people in God's name or in the name of superiority is okay in check so that something like the holocaust never happens again.

[Lauren]

Really? Someone spewing hate about who a person is is something society shouldn't care about? I seem to remember a man named Adolf Hitler who spewed the same sort of vile, unfounded hate that KILLED millions of people. It is our responsibility as a society to keep the type of person that thinks that killing people in God's name or in the name of superiority is okay in check so that something like the holocaust never happens again.

Well stated, Robyn.

[funniegrrl]

jmarie, perhaps your friend should come read the thread before passing opinion on it.

Why is stating my views rude? I should be praising Falwell? I shouldn't say that I disagree (vehemently) with what he said and did and stood for? I shouldn't protest against hate and bigotry? The fact that he never wavered from his views is not reason alone to celebrate him or even give him a pass. Once again, I'm not being flip or "shooting off at the mouth." I am expressing strongly held views about what I believe is right and wrong, and doing so in regards to one single individual, not entire categories of people. If you (and your friend) can't see the difference, I'm sorry. But I will not apologize for speaking out against hatred and intolerance, period, and I will not accept third-hand criticism.

Perhaps a refresher of history is in order (props to Robyn for reminding me about it)

First they came for the Communists, and I didn’t speak up,
because I wasn’t a Communist.
First they came for the Socialists, and I didn’t speak up,
because I wasn’t a Socialist.
Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I didn’t speak up,
because I wasn’t a Trade Unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I didn’t speak up,
because I wasn’t a Jew.
Then they came for the Catholics, and I didn’t speak up,
because I was a Protestant.
Then they came for me, and by that time there was no one left
to speak up for me.
-- Pastor Martin Niemöller (1892–1984)


P.S. If your friend is going to churches where the pastors preach against gays, then perhaps she should find a more tolerant church. There are plenty of loving, inclusive churches all over the country who do not view homosexuality as a sin or something to be "cured."

[cookinprogress]

I won't be missing or mourning the death of Jerry Falwell one bit, and won't make any apologies for it either. I'm sure he wouldn't lose any sleep over the deaths of many of the people he didn't approve of, so why should any of them be so mournful of his death? Some people just aren't worth that kind of respect, and he is one of them. Good riddance.

[kima]

Thank you Robyn and funniegrrl for expressing much more eloquently than I could thoughts and opinions that I ardently agree with.



Thanks for the laugh as well Bob.

[leightx]

I'm also puzzled as to why "strength of convictions" is such a laudable quality - especially when those convictions are so incredibly malicious. I see no reason to honor anyone for their unwavering adherence to hateful statements. :confused:

[kima]

I'm also puzzled as to why "strength of convictions" is such a laudable quality - especially when those convictions are so incredibly malicious. I see no reason to honor anyone for their unwavering adherence to hateful statements. :confused:

Yeah- if that is the case then Bin Laden is one admirable dude. When we know for sure he is finally dead we can at least say he stood by his beliefs.


:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

(I am not equating Falwell with Bin Laden for the record)

[testkitchen45]

Leigh, ITA. :(

Ignorant question to follow . . . what's ITA?:confused:

[lindrusso]

Ignorant question to follow . . . what's ITA?:confused:

I totally agree?

[Autumnsun]

I just finished reading this thread. I had the same question about ITA. I assume that she is meaning I totally agree.

[Gumbeaux]

Down here in the South, it could mean Istimated Time of Arrival. :D

[TieKitty]

Gumbeaux....I like your new picture, but where's the banana?:D

[lindrusso]

Gumbeaux....I like your new picture, but where's the banana?:D

ACK! NO! Not the disconcerted banana-fearing school girl!!!!!!!!!!!

[sparrowgrass]

I did not care for the man, but I would feel like a hypocrit if I were to mouth off with hatred or anger the moment I heard of his death.

Funny--I would feel like a hypocrite if I suddenly decided he wasn't so bad, just because I heard he was dead. My opinion of him did not change between a week ago, when he was breathing, and now, when he is not.

I thought he was hateful, pompous, and self-righteous then, and I think the same thing now.

[KAnn]

She said that it doesn't bother her what he and others think about her lifestyle...
(

I am straight. It is NOT a "lifestyle". It is how I was born. One of my sisters is gay. It is not a "lifestyle". It is how she was born.

And my Christian friends and family members believe that all God created was good and that includes all people whether gay or straight.

Falwell is reaping what he sowed. I will not miss his intolerance or his hateful statements. He hurt many good and decent people.

[little_bopeep]

ACK! NO! Not the disconcerted banana-fearing school girl!!!!!!!!!!!

Oh, geeeez...what would Jerry have made of this?????

[eas11]

Funny--I would feel like a hypocrite if I suddenly decided he wasn't so bad, just because I heard he was dead. My opinion of him did not change between a week ago, when he was breathing, and now, when he is not.

I thought he was hateful, pompous, and self-righteous then, and I think the same thing now.

Me too. Thanks for writing exactly what I would have said.
I am not at all sad this man has been silenced. Regrettfully, I'm sure there will be followers spewing his hateful and most ridiculous comments!

[Beth]

Funny--I would feel like a hypocrite if I suddenly decided he wasn't so bad, just because I heard he was dead. My opinion of him did not change between a week ago, when he was breathing, and now, when he is not.

I thought he was hateful, pompous, and self-righteous then, and I think the same thing now.

I didn't change my views of the man or his actions because he died, but I don't want to act like him.

[Jalapeno]

And my Christian friends and family members believe that all God created was good and that includes all people whether gay or straight.

Just because a person believes it doesn't make it true. We are all called to turn away from our sin and repent, not try to justify it.

If all that God created is good then that would include Falwell, Hitler, Bin Laden, Hussein, and countless others, after all God did create them too!

Bottom line is it is our choices in life that either secure or deny our place in heaven.

[blazedog]

Just because a person believes it doesn't make it true. We are all called to turn away from our sin and repent, not try to justify it.

If all that God created is good then that would include Falwell, Hitler, Bin Laden, Hussein, and countless others, after all God did create them too!

Bottom line is it is our choices in life that either secure or deny our place in heaven.

There is no "moral" being on the planet -- and probably the universe -- that would not agree that the people you mentioned (with the exception of Falwell) are evil. To equate a gay person with a mass murderer is astounding -- does one then support pogroms against these evil dwellers among us who choose to love someone of the same sex?

What possible basis do you have for this belief other than narrow minded bigotry -- If you are going to cite Biblical passages, give me an f'ing break as I could no doubt provide you with Biblical mandates which you wilfully ignore -- and since you are a Christian I assume, I would assume that you are also not dutifully following all of mandates contained in the Old Testament -- do you keep kosher for example?

I am an atheist and have a strong moral code which includes my not killing -- or otherwise hurting people (and living creatures to some extent) because it is wrong -- not because some mythical creation of a cultural superego is threatening me with hell.

Homosexuality hurts no one and one's view of it as wrong or sinful is based on ethnocentric cultural taboos.

As for anyone who truly believes the ultimate sin is not accepting Christ as one's savior -- what can I say except that a place populated by those would be my version of hell.:eek:

[honeygirl1971]

She said that there is one unpardonable sin and that is to sin against the Holy Spirit by not accepting Jesus as your Savior (my opinion, as well)....

This is, I guess, one of my major problems with most versions of Christianity. According to this belief, a serial child molester who accepts Christ as his savior belongs in heaven, but, say, Gandhi doesn't. :(

[Jalapeno]

I am an atheist

Well that explains everything. :rolleyes:

[blazedog]

Well that explains everything. :rolleyes:

It explains nothing since your world view would send me into the same fiery pit if I were Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, Wiccan -- or any of the other religions that don't accept Christ as a savior == along with homosexuals and other sinners.:D

Anyone who shapes their behavior out of a fear of hell has a pretty underdeveloped moral compass.:eek:

[KAnn]

Just because a person believes it doesn't make it true. We are all called to turn away from our sin and repent, not try to justify it.

Bottom line is it is our choices in life that either secure or deny our place in heaven.

That would be YOUR belief system and your values. They are not mine and they are not universal.

[hlao23]

Well that explains everything. :rolleyes:

Except that I'm a Christian and I agree with everything Blaze had to say in that post.

Not all Christians believe that it is a sin to be homosexual.

[KAnn]

This is, I guess, one of my major problems with most versions of Christianity. According to this belief, a serial child molester who accepts Christ as his savior belongs in heaven, but, say, Gandhi doesn't. :(

Woops, I missed this! How true! (And how odd.)

Thank you for that foof for thought!

[bobmark226]

Thank you for that foof for thought!

Would that be low cal foof or full fat? ;)

Bob
(Sorry, I couldn't resist.)

[JenniferJJ]

This is, I guess, one of my major problems with most versions of Christianity. According to this belief, a serial child molester who accepts Christ as his savior belongs in heaven, but, say, Gandhi doesn't. :(

This is the way I can explain in the parent-child example: A loving parent doesn't want their children to be with them because they are well-behaved (while I admit, this must be nice), they want them to be with them because they are THEIRS and they have a relationship with them. I mean, you don't go out and buy a birthday present for the kid in your kid's class who got the best grades when you have never met this kid, you buy a birthday present for YOUR kid.

The problem is that people think of this place where the good people go and hell is the place where the bad people go. The problem is that God doesn't work like that. I'm really glad: I'm better than some and worse than others, so I'm no shoe-in on the goodness method.

Heaven, per the Christian belief/Bible, is where God is and the the people who want to be with God go there. If one does not want to be with God, why would one want to go where he is?

[blazedog]

Heaven, per the Christian belief/Bible, is where God is and the the people who want to be with God go there. If one does not want to be with God, why would one want to go where he is?

Because your ethnocentric view of god assumes there is one God who can only be worshipped in a particular manner -- as opposed to a broader view which recognizes that a "greater power" can be worshipped in many ways.

Do you believe out in the etherworld there are different "heavens" -- somewhat like subdivisions in which the various gods of the earth have dominion over those souls which worship them -- I would imagine the Jewish heaven to be a cross between the Catskills and Miami Beach perhaps since Jews worship the Judeo Christian "god" but don't accept Christ and therefore would be denied access to YOUR heaven.:D Ah well, we lived for years with restricted covenants -- why would it be any different in the afterlife?:D :D

Are there older developments like Valhalla or Mount Olympus where Greeks and Vikings pursue their separate cultural interests in eternity?:D

[badunnin]

Heaven, per the Christian belief/Bible, is where God is and the the people who want to be with God go there. If one does not want to be with God, why would one want to go where he is?

But what about the homosexual who believes in God, wants to be with Him/Her, but is told by the church that part of what makes him/her an individual (again, like KAnn stated, not a lifestyle) is offensive to God and sinful?

[ADM]

I'm sure there will be followers spewing his hateful and most ridiculous comments!

We have been noticing that, even on this thread, haven't we? :rolleyes:

[leightx]

Jennifer - I understand and respect that Christians want to go to Heaven and be with God, and I think both you and Grace (in the proving God thread) have talked about Heaven being a place where Christians go to be with God. What I think most people have a major issue with is that some Christians just can't let that be enough. They want to legislate their own personal version of morality, based on their religion, and I think that's very very wrong. Just because you believe that your version of morality is "true" doesn't give you permission to force it on anyone else.

In other words, I still don't get what difference it makes to anyone - Christian or otherwise - if another person is homosexual. Why did Jerry Falwell give a rat's @ss about people he knew he wouldn't have to spend eternity with anyway (in his version of heaven, at least)? :confused:

[leightx]

Oh....and this?

I am an atheist

Well that explains everything. :rolleyes:

is appalling. What exactly are you trying to say?

[Grace]

Jennifer In other words, I still don't get what difference it makes to anyone - Christian or otherwise - if another person is homosexual. Why did Jerry Falwell give a rat's @ss about people he knew he wouldn't have to spend eternity with anyway (in his version of heaven, at least)? :confused:

There's only one version of Heaven. We don't all go to our own versions of Heaven. If you believe there's a heaven, that is.

And you keep missing the point about Heaven. It's NOT a place for perfect people! There ARE no perfect people! There is no list anywhere that says this sin isn't so bad, so if you commit this one, you still get to go, but if you commit any of the sins on this list, well then, forget it, you're out for good! The people who go to Heaven will all have sinned in their lives. ALL. Every single last one. God will decide who goes and who doesn't based on the relationship He has with each person individually, and I guarantee that there will be people there who were homosexual on this earth. Falwell knew this too. Falwell didn't believe in a heaven that was filled with non-sinners?? Not sure where you got that idea. For heaven's sake, if Falwell does go to heaven (only God knows if he will or not!!), he, Falwell, was very obviously a sinner too! And Falwell couldn't condemn anyone to hell, but he voiced what he believed was sin. Every person is allowed to make their own moral judgements.

As for legislating them, that's a different subject. But to suggest that Falwell believed no homosexuals would ever get into Heaven anyway, so who cares about them is an absurd idea.

And the whole idea behind Christianity is to care about others, not not care. So I also bristle at the idea that we as Christians should just "write off" people just because they're not "one of us", as it is the antithesis of real Christianity.

[leightx]

And you keep missing the point about Heaven. It's NOT a place for perfect people! There ARE no perfect people! There is no list anywhere that says this sin isn't so bad, so if you commit this one, you still get to go, but if you commit any of the sins on this list, well then, forget it, you're out for good! The people who go to Heaven will all have sinned in their lives. ALL. Every single last one. God will decide who goes and who doesn't based on the relationship He has with each person individually, and I guarantee that there will be people there who were homosexual on this earth. Falwell knew this too. Falwell didn't believe in a heaven that was filled with non-sinners?? Not sure where you got that idea. For heaven's sake, if Falwell does go to heaven (only God knows if he will or not!!), he, Falwell, was very obviously a sinner too! And Falwell couldn't condemn anyone to hell, but he voiced what he believed was sin. Every person is allowed to make their own moral judgements.

I'm not sure if are directing the entire post at me or not, but since you quoted me, I'll answer anyway! :) I don't think Heaven is the place for perfect people, nor do I really think anyone on this thread views Heaven that way, whether they believe in it or not. You're missing my point however - Falwell doesn't think homosexuals will get into Heaven, so I'm not sure why you think my statement is so absurd!

And the whole idea behind Christianity is to care about others, not not care. So I also bristle at the idea that we as Christians should just "write off" people just because they're not "one of us", as it is the antithesis of real Christianity.

There is a big, HUGE, ENORMOUS difference between "caring" about someone, and condemning them. Falwell and his ilk don't care about homosexuals (and "abortionists", and feminists :rolleyes: , and Jews, etc...) - they condemn them. That is wrong. I know plenty of Christians who disagree with the same things Falwell did, but they don't spew vile hatred about others, and they don't encourage people to give them millions to support their ideas either.

[JenniferJJ]

Jennifer - I understand and respect that Christians want to go to Heaven and be with God, and I think both you and Grace (in the proving God thread) have talked about Heaven being a place where Christians go to be with God. What I think most people have a major issue with is that some Christians just can't let that be enough. They want to legislate their own personal version of morality, based on their religion, and I think that's very very wrong. Just because you believe that your version of morality is "true" doesn't give you permission to force it on anyone else.

In other words, I still don't get what difference it makes to anyone - Christian or otherwise - if another person is homosexual. Why did Jerry Falwell give a rat's @ss about people he knew he wouldn't have to spend eternity with anyway (in his version of heaven, at least)? :confused:

As far as legislating our own personal version of morality, don't we all do that to some extent? I mean, we do have laws against killing, stealing, selling illegal drugs, etc?

And like Grace said, the idea about Christianity is to care about other people. I've made a new friend who really drinks way too much. I really think she has a problem. She said that the reason she's been drinking so much lately is because she's grieving over a friend who died. But her drinking stories go back way before that. The only things she suggests to do for fun are drinking related. But if I invite her to something that's not drinking-related, she'll go. I'm not judging her, but I really don't think this is good for her, let alone the danger of her being on the road.

The rules God made really are for our benefit. I really think that one could read the Bible just to find out the rules God made for us to live our lives and, even if one decided they didn't want to follow Jesus as his/her Savior, one could see that the rules make sense for us to follow if we want to have a life in harmany and with fewer troubles in life.

[badunnin]

And like Grace said, the idea about Christianity is to care about other people.

But how in the world can anyone say, in all honesty, that this quote, from JF, is about caring? I can not find ANY caring or compassion in much of what he preached. It was a very exclusionist view of the world, separating into us and them.

“[Homosexuals are] brute beasts...part of a vile and satanic system [that] will be utterly annihilated, and there will be a celebration in heaven.”

[Grace]

Falwell doesn't think homosexuals will get into Heaven, so I'm not sure why you think my statement is so absurd!


I only saw him condemning behavior. I never once heard him say they won't go to heaven. I would be interested to see where he said that. He condemned the behavior as sinful behavior. I think (correct me if I'm wrong) that you extrapolated from that then he must think they won't go to heaven because they are sinning.... which is why I said heaven is/will be FULL of sinners!

Editing to add, I never heard the quote Bethany posted. I didn't follow Falwell or listen to him. So perhaps he did say things like that, which I won't defend, since he can't know any more than anyone else what God will or won't do for sure.

[leightx]

So Grace and Jennifer, you're saying that you really believe that Falwell was just being incredibly caring to the homosexuals, feminists, "abortionists" and Jews? I'm not sure whether to laugh, or cry. I think I'm mostly just disgusted.

[JenniferJJ]

So Grace and Jennifer, you're saying that you really believe that Falwell was just being incredibly caring to the homosexuals, feminists, "abortionists" and Jews? I'm not sure whether to laugh, or cry. I think I'm mostly just disgusted.

To be honest, I didn't really follow Farwell, so I cannot really discuss him. On page 1, I realized I didn't say what I wanted, and couldn't articulate it well, so I decided to forget it. On this page, I posted again because I felt like I could respond to honeygirl's comment, which seemed more about Christianity rather than Farwell.

When I commented about Farwell caring about others who sin, I was just adding to Grace's post and really going from the attitude of "any Christian", not Farwell.

[Grace]

So Grace and Jennifer, you're saying that you really believe that Falwell was just being incredibly caring to the homosexuals, feminists, "abortionists" and Jews? I'm not sure whether to laugh, or cry. I think I'm mostly just disgusted.

No. Read my edit to my post right before yours. I, like Jennifer, didn't follow Falwell or know what he really said. I was going with the assumption that he thought what I believe. Apparently not. :rolleyes: And anyway, just for the record, I had no intention of entering this thread, precisely because I don't know much about Falwell, and didn't have anything to contribute, until my name came up, and an assumption was made about what I believe. I didn't come here to comment on Falwell, what he believed, what he said or anything like that. I only came to refute the idea that we shouldn't care about people who "sin" since they won't be in heaven anyway. I don't know if that's what Falwell thought. But that's not a Christian principle.

Coming back to edit one more time - lest anyone think I'm wishy-washy - I do believe in right and wrong. And I do believe that God does destroy what He considers evil (I do not claim to be an expert on what God sees as right and wrong). But Sodom and Gomorrah are two examples. He sent warnings before He destroyed. Read the book of Jonah (it's only 4 short chapters). It's a story about a lot of things, but one of those things is Jonah was sent by God to Ninevah to warn them that if they didn't change their ways, they'd be destroyed. Jonah didn't want to go, so he tried to run away from God. But that's not my point here. Eventually he did obey God and go to Ninevah and warn the people. They ended up repenting, so Ninevah was spared. And Jonah was like Jerry Falwell!! He was mad at God!! He didn't like what the Ninevites were doing, and he didn't think they deserved to be spared! He went up out of Ninevah and sat at the edge of town waiting for God to destroy it so he could sit and watch. But the Ninevites repented wholeheartedly - they declared a fast and wore sackcloth, even the King wore sackcloth and sat in dust, they even made the animals fast, and they asked God to spare them. So God had compassion and spared them destruction.

An excerpt from my recent Bible study on this: "Consider the difference in Jonah's heart and God's heart. God wants to have compassion and redeem a wicked people and Jonah thinks that the people do not deserve the message. God has a desire to reach the people even though they are disobedient. Jonah has decided that some people are too wicked to deserve the message."

This is exactly Jerry Falwell's sin, IMO. He may (I say may, since I have no idea for sure) have been warning people on behalf of God, but it was his lack of sincere desire that the sinners really be redeemed that was his sin, IMO. I am NOT saying that JF was speaking for God and warning people. I don't know. All I am saying is that even if he was (in terms of sending warnings - we know God does this), his attitude was not from or of God. JF was like Jonah and wanted to condemn those people himself and not leave it to God.

[Jessica]

I would imagine the Jewish heaven to be a cross between the Catskills and Miami Beach perhaps since Jews worship the Judeo Christian "god" but don't accept Christ and therefore would be denied access to YOUR heaven.:D Ah well, we lived for years with restricted covenants -- why would it be any different in the afterlife?:D :D

OK, I have no interest in getting embroiled in this debate but this comment cracked me up. I can't wait to get to Jewish heaven, where I will dine on rugelach and pumpernickel bagels and watch movies on Christmas. Of course, I support gay marriage and am pro-choice, so maybe I am going to Jewish hell to eat Jello and Cool Whip.

Guess I just embroiled myself.

:rolleyes:

[blazedog]

OK, I have no interest in getting embroiled in this debate but this comment cracked me up. I can't wait to get to Jewish heaven, where I will dine on rugelach and pumpernickel bagels and watch movies on Christmas. Of course, I support gay marriage and am pro-choice, so maybe I am going to Jewish hell to eat Jello and Cool Whip.

Guess I just embroiled myself.

:rolleyes:

You forgot the obligatory dinner at a Chinese restaurant on Christmas Day.:D

[ADM]

You know, heaven wasn't opened just 2007 years ago after people first heard about the name God.

Early civilizations, world-wide, always knew that there was a powerful *presence* they did not understand, but revered and worshiped. There is proof of this on all continents, (Stonehenge, Easter Island, Asia, American Indians, etc.) I can't seriously believe that any beneavalent God would abandon all of those early faithful worshipers and decide they were doomed, just because they hadn't heard the word the precise word, "God". Does anyone, besides Jerry Falwell, really believe that *God* was a WASP?

Wars, all over the globe, have often been religious based, such as the present Irish Protestant-Catholic conflict. It was the early Puritans who came to America who provoked the Indian Wars. In one New England area they captured an Indian, decapitated and placed his head on the village pole. Pretty shabby, for people who left England in search of religious tolerance! Catholic priests killed one of my early Protestant ancestors, in Canada, while trying to convert her to the Catholic religion. The Spanish Inquisition was certainly not god-like! The Klu-Klux-Clan was against all Blacks, Catholics and Jews. Jerry Falwell proclaimed the same.

Becoming an ordained Minister, Catholic Priest or even a Rabbi, does not mean an automatic admission to heaven, does it? I find that many self-proclaimed Athiests live a much better and a more religious life than highly proclaimed and respected "Born-again Christians*!

1st Corinthians 5:1-13 = "Judge Not, Lest Ye Be Judged". That was just one of the parts of the Bible that Jerry Falwell chose to ignore! He also ignored tolerance, compassion and "God is love". His legacy is that he spread, and taught, hate.

And, no one has ever disagreed that his family should mourn his death. We all have had a loved one die, and it is devastating!

[funniegrrl]

And there is plenty of evidence that belief in a higher power is simply a trick of the human brain.

Arguing about religion is pointless. Those who believe certain things as "true" -- existence of sin, existence of heaven & hell, appropriateness of trying to "save" those perceived as sinners (an ENTIRELY Christian concept, absent any other religion I've ever heard of, and I was an Anthropology major), stories in the Bible being real events in which God was an actor, on and on -- won't stop believing based on an online argument. Those who don't believe, won't be convinced based on an online argument.

Or any argument.

Remember the Spanish Inquisition? The Pope and his minions were just trying to "care" for their fellow Catholics. Oh, and don't forget Henry VIII and his daughter, Bloody Queen Mary. Before that, there were the Crusades -- four of them, I believe. Since then there have been any number of beheadings, burnings, boiling in oil, hangings, battles, wars, and every manner of horrible murder in the name of whatever particular flavor of Christianity was in vogue with the people in power.

So please, don't tell me that Christians who try to dictate what is right and wrong for the rest of the world are just trying to "care" for us poor sinners.

[honeygirl1971]

The problem is that people think of this place where the good people go and hell is the place where the bad people go. The problem is that God doesn't work like that. I'm really glad: I'm better than some and worse than others, so I'm no shoe-in on the goodness method.

Heaven, per the Christian belief/Bible, is where God is and the the people who want to be with God go there. If one does not want to be with God, why would one want to go where he is?


Jennifer, I understand what you are saying, and it makes sense to me, up to a point. Following this line of thinking, though, what do you think happened to Gandhi when he died? He did not accept Jesus as his savior and did not want to go to Christian "Heaven" to be with Christian "God," so what do you think happened to him? Did he go to Hell? From what I understand, most Christians do NOT believe that there are alternative afterlives (as in, Hindus go here, Christians go there, etc.), so ?? In addition, according to Christian belief, Gandhi is still part of God's creation whether he accepts Him or not...so God condemns Gandhi because he did not accept Christ, even though he devoted his life to peace? Let's say for the sake of argument that Hitler accepted Jesus Christ as his savior (I do not know if he did or not, as I am no expert on Hitler or Nazism). Do you really believe in a God who, in this example, would save Hitler but not Gandhi?

[funniegrrl]

Following this line of thinking, though, what do you think happened to Gandhi when he died? He did not accept Jesus as his savior and did not want to go to Christian "Heaven" to be with Christian "God," so what do you think happened to him? Did he go to Hell?

Actually, yes. In Dante's Inferno, he assigned what he termed "the virtuous heathen" to the first circle of Hell (the least, um, punishing). Lucky them! http://italian.about.com/library/anthology/dante/blinfernoindex.htm

[ADM]

Actually, yes. In Dante's Inferno, he assigned what he termed "the virtuous heathen" to the first circle of Hell (the least, um, punishing). Lucky them! http://italian.about.com/library/anthology/dante/blinfernoindex.htm

You are equating Dante with, or as a helper to, God? :eek: I suspect that the final decision was pretty well worked out, without mortal help or input, long before Dante's Inferno was written in the early 1300's! :rolleyes:

[colleency]

Well that explains everything. :rolleyes:

Wow. Just wow. I am agnostic. I have friends that are atheists that talk about how atheism is one of the last "acceptable" prejudices. Comments like that are kind of like kicking someone. You could put that same statement after any sentence that starts, "I am..." What a thing to say!

I know that there are people who are prejudiced, but it always stuns me when it's so blatant, which is actually silly, I guess, when you consider the prejudices against homosexuals that are so blatant that they're being written into law.

It's scary that people can just write off whole groups of people because they're different. I guess I don't like to think about all the people that hate me because of who I am or who I'm not. I can be hated for: being American, being female, not taking Jesus as my personal savior, having a mom who's gay, being a science fiction fan, wearing costumes, not being muslim, having too much money (middle class), being white...where does it end? Would these people hate me if we had a chance to go on a picnic together?

Please, if there is a god or gods, let me have the wisdom not to hate people I don't know.

[JenniferJJ]

Jennifer, I understand what you are saying, and it makes sense to me, up to a point. Following this line of thinking, though, what do you think happened to Gandhi when he died? He did not accept Jesus as his savior and did not want to go to Christian "Heaven" to be with Christian "God," so what do you think happened to him? Did he go to Hell? From what I understand, most Christians do NOT believe that there are alternative afterlives (as in, Hindus go here, Christians go there, etc.), so ?? In addition, according to Christian belief, Gandhi is still part of God's creation whether he accepts Him or not...so God condemns Gandhi because he did not accept Christ, even though he devoted his life to peace? Let's say for the sake of argument that Hitler accepted Jesus Christ as his savior (I do not know if he did or not, as I am no expert on Hitler or Nazism). Do you really believe in a God who, in this example, would save Hitler but not Gandhi?

Again, Christianity does not have a good/bad test to get into Heaven. Yes, I do believe in a God who loves everyone, even murderers. As far as I know, Hitler did not accept Jesus as his Savior. I would never want Heaven to be a good/bad system. I would be living my whole life wondering if I have done enough, because you can't just not do bad things, but you have to do really good things, too. As far as I know, that is what Muslims struggle with - never knowing if they have done enough good to get to heaven. And of course, in Hindu how good you are in this life determines what you will come back as. One difference between God and man is that God can forgive all sins and loves all people, even murderers. I do not personally know any murderers. However, my uncle who died recently was a cocaine addict who was in and out of prisons in 2 or 3 states. Several family members continually tried to help him. My dad did not know what to do, but said what I guess everyone must have felt "He is still my brother."

So, that's kind of like God is - He says "This murderer is still my child" Plenty of murderes have accepted Christ and changed their ways.

And yes, if people who are good by society's standards (actually God's measurement is perfect and nobody, not even Ghandhi was/is perfect) but they reject God, they will not go to where God is, Heaven.

[colleency]

I guess a more succinct way of saying what I was trying to say and staying on the topic of the thread is:

Jerry Falwell encouraged this kind of response:

I am an atheist.

Well that explains everything. :rolleyes:

to anyone who wasn't in his very narrow view of how things should be.

:(

[funniegrrl]

You are equating Dante with, or as a helper to, God? :eek: I suspect that the final decision was pretty well worked out, without mortal help or input, long before Dante's Inferno was written in the early 1300's! :rolleyes:

Wow, talk about misinterpreting something.

The question (which I quoted) was, "what do you [Jennifer] think happened to Gandhi when he died? ... Did he go to Hell?"

My response was that the traditional line of thinking in Christianity would answer the question as "yes." That traditional line of thinking was written down by Dante. I did not equate Dante with God, did not say Dante was God's "helper," and also did not say what God had "worked out."

So, here are a couple of :rolleyes: :rolleyes: for you. :cool:

[funniegrrl]

I would never want Heaven to be a good/bad system. I would be living my whole life wondering if I have done enough, because you can't just not do bad things, but you have to do really good things, too. As far as I know, that is what Muslims struggle with - never knowing if they have done enough good to get to heaven. And of course, in Hindu how good you are in this life determines what you will come back as. One difference between God and man is that God can forgive all sins and loves all people, even murderers. ...

And yes, if people who are good by society's standards (actually God's measurement is perfect and nobody, not even Ghandhi was/is perfect) but they reject God, they will not go to where God is, Heaven.

The first paragraph is very interesting, because it is a particularly Protestant point of view. When a lot of Christians talk about Christianity, they act as though Catholicism, Greek Orthodox, Russian Orthodox, etc. don't exist. I always find that amusing.

The second paragraph is also interesting, because it points out one of the great flaws in the idea of the Christian heaven. What about people who have never heard about the Christian god? What about all of the people who lived before Jesus? Hell must be full of good, loving people who lived virtuous lives, but are punished due to when and where they were born.

[GingerPow]

It's scary that people can just write off whole groups of people because they're different. I guess I don't like to think about all the people that hate me because of who I am or who I'm not. I can be hated for: being American, being female, not taking Jesus as my personal savior, having a mom who's gay, being a science fiction fan, wearing costumes, not being muslim, having too much money (middle class), being white...where does it end?
Would these people hate me if we had a chance to go on a picnic together?
After reading through this entire thread, then to come to your post, Colleency, makes something abundantly clear to me. What if people simply accepted each other as a fellow human being. Period. Human. Being. No labels whatsoever. What might that feel like if people tried that for one single minute, which in essence would be to release imposed belief systems and judgement.

It is as if we adopt personas, beliefs, and yes, Colleen, in a manner of speaking; costumes ;) in order to 'belong' somewhere, but in truth are not about the true nature of the being. What we do not adopt ourselves often becomes imposed upon us. We identify ourselves and are identified by others as these artificial labels. And what a list of labels there exists today! :rolleyes:

To say I am an "American" for instance, means one thing to me, but a very different thing to a person halfway around this planet. They might think they know who I am based on the term "American."

Where does this "us/them" mentality come from? Is this some ancient tribal instinct still residing in some deep part of our brain?

Upon further reflection, this need to judge and label truly says less about the ones being judged, and speaks volumes about the one doing the judging. As I have heard Dr. Wayne Dyer say, "It shows them to be one who has a need to judge."

I love your picnic question, Colleen. My guess would be when people meet one on one, look each other in the eye, and these labels are shed we all might learn that the other guy isn't that bad after all.

[ADM]

[QUOTE=funniegrrl;1218996]Wow, talk about misinterpreting something. The question (which I quoted) was, "what do you [Jennifer] think happened to Gandhi when he died? ... Did he go to Hell?" My response was that the traditional line of thinking in Christianity would answer the question as "yes." That traditional line of thinking was written down by Dante. I did not equate Dante with God, did not say Dante was God's "helper," and also did not say what God had "worked out." QUOTE]

Maybe I misinterpreted, but it sure sounded to me that you were trying to add "The Book of Dante", to the bible to make a point! Dante certainly isn't in my traditional line of religious thinking, like he seems to be in yours.

[blazedog]

And yes, if people who are good by society's standards (actually God's measurement is perfect and nobody, not even Ghandhi was/is perfect) but they reject God, they will not go to where God is, Heaven.

By "God" -- do you mean a belief in the Christian god as described in the New Testament which includes a belief in Jesus Christ as a form of god -- or just god as a "greater power" that can be worshipped in many different ways -- all of which are equally pleasing to this entity or essence of whatever.

Although Jews theoretically accept God, they would be damned because of their non-acceptance of Christ -- other religions with their own god or gods are also damned because they are worshipping the wrong god? -- would this be a correct statement of your beliefs?

Again -- I don't think anyone who doesn't share your beliefs particularly cares that they are being excluded from this particular country club of the eternity.

It is what seems to come from these kinds of beliefs -- whether they are a Jihad, the Inquisition, the Holocaust and so on -- that terrifies me.

[funniegrrl]

Maybe I misinterpreted, but it sure sounded to me that you were trying to add "The Book of Dante", to the bible to make a point! Dante certainly isn't in my traditional line of religious thinking, like he seems to be in yours.

Where did I say I believed in the Bible or was a Christian, or believed Dante's Inferno was an adjunct to the Bible? I wasn't answering the question according to MY belief system, but according to Christian thinking that reaches back millenia as expressed in Dante's work. Dante simply gave the name "virtuous heathen" to the group that would include Gandhi, and I was quoting his work in order to use the label. I think you're the only person confused by that. So please ... let's drop it, 'k?

[moonbeam]

After reading the posts by colleency and Gingerpow, I immediately thought of John Lennon's song Imagine.
Imagine
John Lennon
Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today...

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace...

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one

Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world...

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one

[kima]

That song (one of my favourites) always comes to mind when I read religious threads.

If only.......

[ClaraB]

That song (one of my favourites) always comes to mind when I read religious threads.

If only.......But you make it sound like religion is a bad thing overall, and while I won't argue that there have been many terrible atrocities committed in the name of religion, religion has also led to many beneficial things. Nearly every religion on earth has as its mandate to love one's neighbor - isn't that what John Lennon was after? Just because jihadists commit terrorist acts in the name of Islam, does that make Islam a bad religion? That would be like saying that Jodie Foster is a bad person because John Hinckley shot Reagan in her name :rolleyes: .

[kima]

I am not wild about organized religions but I do understand that many people find inspiration and comfort from them.

I am not sure if the good done in the name of religion outweighs the bad but as a nonbeliever I would not be sad if "religion" became an antiquated notion.



Anyway I truly don't want to get into this discussion though I find it very interesting . As I head to the ripe old age of 50 I realize I won't change anyone's mind on such a deeply personal issue nor do I even want to.

[ClaraB]

I am not sure if the good done in the name of religion outweighs the bad but as a nonbeliever I would not be sad if "religion" became an antiquated notion.
And as a believer, I would be tremendously discouraged if this intolerant, messed-up world was all there was :o .

I do agree that neither one of us is likely to change the other one's mind, though ;) ....

[kima]

And as a believer, I would be tremendously discouraged if this intolerant, messed-up world was all there was :o .

I do agree that neither one of us is likely to change the other one's mind, though ;) ....

My final comment on this (it is an interesting topic). I am not discouraged at all knowing this is the only world that exists and that when we die we are dead,fini- no different than a dog or a flea or a cow. All we have is the here and now.
And for me it it isn't what would be the most advantageous thing to believe - it is what it is. There is no Santa either though I kind of wish there was.

[honeygirl1971]

Again, Christianity does not have a good/bad test to get into Heaven. Yes, I do believe in a God who loves everyone, even murderers.

I understood that in your first post. What I was asking, though, is what do you think happened to Gandhi when he died? Did God send him to burn in a fiery pit in Hell?


As far as I know, Hitler did not accept Jesus as his Savior.
I do not know if he did or not. For the sake of argument, though, let's say he did. Then, by your account, he would be saved, right? Because the ONLY thing that matters is whether or not you accept Jesus as your savior, right? Not if you are a sinner (because, all humans are sinners), if you are a murderer, if you are a genocidal maniac...Right?

One difference between God and man is that God can forgive all sins and loves all people, even murderers. I do not personally know any murderers. However, my uncle who died recently was a cocaine addict who was in and out of prisons in 2 or 3 states. Several family members continually tried to help him. My dad did not know what to do, but said what I guess everyone must have felt "He is still my brother."

So, that's kind of like God is - He says "This murderer is still my child" Plenty of murderes have accepted Christ and changed their ways.

Again, I understood this from the beginning. But I just wanted you to clarify, that even if God loves everyone, no matter what, he still condemns those who do not accept Jesus as their savoir to burn in Hell for all eternity. To me, that is an extremely conditional kind of love. :confused:


And yes, if people who are good by society's standards (actually God's measurement is perfect and nobody, not even Ghandhi was/is perfect) but they reject God, they will not go to where God is, Heaven.

So, they burn in Hell instead? That's all I'm trying to clarify here. This is one of the major problems I have with many forms of Christianity. It just doesn't work for me that a all-powerful, perfectly good, omniscient being would behave this way (creating man to be imperfect, testing him, getting angry when he fails, punishing him, and so on).

[GingerPow]

After reading the posts by colleency and Gingerpow, I immediately thought of John Lennon's song Imagine.
I must admit Moonbeam, as I proofread my post, which included Colleency's statements, before submitting it, the lyrics to "Imagine" came to mind. He was on to something.

[newcook]

QUOTE=honeygirl1971;1219168]I understood that in your first post. What I was asking, though, is what do you think happened to Gandhi when he died? Did God send him to burn in a fiery pit in Hell? ]

Believing Christians interpret the bible in wildly different ways. Only God can judge the secrets of men's hearts. No one can judge a man by his outward religion. It is the secret life that God looks at.

Romans 2:14-16

14 Even Gentiles, who do not have God’s written law, show that they know his law when they instinctively obey it, even without having heard it. 15 They demonstrate that God’s law is written in their hearts, for their own conscience and thoughts either accuse them or tell them they are doing right. 16 And this is the message I proclaim—that the day is coming when God, through Christ Jesus, will judge everyone’s secret life.




QUOTE=honeygirl1971;1219168]I do not know if he did or not. For the sake of argument, though, let's say he did. Then, by your account, he would be saved, right? Because the ONLY thing that matters is whether or not you accept Jesus as your savior, right? Not if you are a sinner (because, all humans are sinners), if you are a murderer, if you are a genocidal maniac...Right?]

Here I think it is difficult for someone who doesn't believe in God to understand but I will give it a shot. The difference between the way you understand this and the way I do is that I believe there really is a God who is actively saving me (from my self aware judgmental self and what that has done to all of mankind). His saving is not just words but an actual power at work in me changing me every second of every day. It is not that I have accepted him as my savior (in a religious way), it is that I am allowing Him on a daily basis to change me in whatever way He deems best. I have to first believe He is the one who can save me, and then I have to ask Him to do it, then He can go ahead and do the work. Each step of the work is still voluntary on my part, and I can accept or reject anything he is doing. There are many theories about how He does it. Some speculate that He does not change us all at once because we are unable to change that way and keep the change permanent. Sort of like if a person goes on a diet, they can lose weight. But if they want the change to remain permanent, it is a long process of relearning.



QUOTE=honeygirl1971;1219168]Again, I understood this from the beginning. But I just wanted you to clarify, that even if God loves everyone, no matter what, he still condemns those who do not accept Jesus as their savoir to burn in Hell for all eternity. To me, that is an extremely conditional kind of love. :confused: ]

I believe I explained that above. Also, many believers interpret hell in wildly different ways. Some think it is what life would be like with the absence of God, not to mention the fact that a great many Christians believe that eternal life begins the moment after we receive the presence of the Holy Spirit to be our new Life. He is eternal, so our life is now eternal.


John 4:14
But those who drink the water I give will never be thirsty again. It becomes a fresh, bubbling spring within them, giving them eternal life.”
John 4:36
The harvesters are paid good wages, and the fruit they harvest is people brought to eternal life. What joy awaits both the planter and the harvester alike!

John 5:24
“I tell you the truth, those who listen to my message and believe in God who sent me have eternal life. They will never be condemned for their sins, but they have already passed from death into life.

John 5:39
39 “You search the Scriptures because you think they give you eternal life. But the Scriptures point to me! 40 Yet you refuse to come to me to receive this life.
John 6:47
“I tell you the truth, anyone who believes has eternal life.

John 6:63
The Spirit alone gives eternal life. Human effort accomplishes nothing. And the very words I have spoken to you are spirit and life.

Acts 11:18
When the others heard this, they stopped objecting and began praising God. They said, “We can see that God has also given the Gentiles the privilege of repenting of their sins and receiving eternal life.”

QUOTE=honeygirl1971;1219168] So, they burn in Hell instead? That's all I'm trying to clarify here. This is one of the major problems I have with many forms of Christianity. It just doesn't work for me that a all-powerful, perfectly good, omniscient being would behave this way (creating man to be imperfect, testing him, getting angry when he fails, punishing him, and so on).[/QUOTE]

There are other ways to interpret it. I tried to explain another way in the other thread. I will not rewrite it all here but just will give a resume the way you did. I don’t claim to understand it all perfectly, as I explained in the other thread, my experience of knowing God, and my experience of His transforming love and power are what is important to me.

God created man perfect and innocent (like a baby is innocent, not self aware, not judging himself or others). He told them not to eat the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil. (Don’t live on the basis of moral right and wrong-it will kill you; live by God’s Life (at that time, they had complete relationship with God, they could hear Him speak for example). Man went ahead and started judging by good and evil and began to die as God had warned him would happen. Man also began to destroy one another with it. So God made a plan to save man from himself. First He had to put a limit on the destruction, and made a law to curtail it. Man could not be saved by the law, because the principle of sin in him made him unable to. Then He sent His Son to show a better way and to bring His Life (eternal life) back into man. Jesus showed the surpassing glory of love and forgiveness over legalism and the law. Then He put an end to all of it by taking sin (which includes all of the sins plus the very principle of sin) and dying with it. Then he rose again with God’s Life principle to be the first among many. And He invites everyone who wants to forsake the old way of man, to come to Him to receive Eternal Life so that man can once again live as he was originally meant to live, free from the law and legalism, and living by the law of Life which is love.

Romans 7:7-8:4
God’s Law Reveals Our Sin
7 Well then, am I suggesting that the law of God is sinful? Of course not! In fact, it was the law that showed me my sin. I would never have known that coveting is wrong if the law had not said, “You must not covet.”[a] 8 But sin used this command to arouse all kinds of covetous desires within me! If there were no law, sin would not have that power. 9 At one time I lived without understanding the law. But when I learned the command not to covet, for instance, the power of sin came to life, 10 and I died. So I discovered that the law’s commands, which were supposed to bring life, brought spiritual death instead. 11 Sin took advantage of those commands and deceived me; it used the commands to kill me. 12 But still, the law itself is holy, and its commands are holy and right and good.
13 But how can that be? Did the law, which is good, cause my death? Of course not! Sin used what was good to bring about my condemnation to death. So we can see how terrible sin really is. It uses God’s good commands for its own evil purposes.
Struggling with Sin
14 So the trouble is not with the law, for it is spiritual and good. The trouble is with me, for I am all too human, a slave to sin. 15 I don’t really understand myself, for I want to do what is right, but I don’t do it. Instead, I do what I hate. 16 But if I know that what I am doing is wrong, this shows that I agree that the law is good. 17 So I am not the one doing wrong; it is sin living in me that does it.
18 And I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[b] I want to do what is right, but I can’t. 19 I want to do what is good, but I don’t. I don’t want to do what is wrong, but I do it anyway. 20 But if I do what I don’t want to do, I am not really the one doing wrong; it is sin living in me that does it.
21 I have discovered this principle of life—that when I want to do what is right, I inevitably do what is wrong. 22 I love God’s law with all my heart. 23 But there is another power[c] within me that is at war with my mind. This power makes me a slave to the sin that is still within me. 24 Oh, what a miserable person I am! Who will free me from this life that is dominated by sin and death? 25 Thank God! The answer is in Jesus Christ our Lord. So you see how it is: In my mind I really want to obey God’s law, but because of my sinful nature I am a slave to sin.
Romans 8
Life in the Spirit
1 So now there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus. 2 And because you belong to him, the power[d] of the life-giving Spirit has freed you[e] from the power of sin that leads to death. 3 The law of Moses was unable to save us because of the weakness of our sinful nature.[f] So God did what the law could not do. He sent his own Son in a body like the bodies we sinners have. And in that body God declared an end to sin’s control over us by giving his Son as a sacrifice for our sins. 4 He did this so that the just requirement of the law would be fully satisfied for us, who no longer follow our sinful nature but instead follow the Spirit.

[Andrea_2]

So, they burn in Hell instead? That's all I'm trying to clarify here. This is one of the major problems I have with many forms of Christianity. It just doesn't work for me that a all-powerful, perfectly good, omniscient being would behave this way (creating man to be imperfect, testing him, getting angry when he fails, punishing him, and so on).

This is one of many, many things that bothered me as a kid about religion, and just made no sense at all. I became certain at a very young age that this whole religion thing just couldn't possibly be true, and haven't believed any of it ever since.

I am not discouraged at all knowing this is the only world that exists and that when we die we are dead,fini- no different than a dog or a flea or a cow. All we have is the here and now.
And for me it it isn't what would be the most advantageous thing to believe - it is what it is. There is no Santa either though I kind of wish there was.

I'm not discouraged by this at all either. To me, it is called reality! Sure it would be nice if there really was this invisible man in the sky who was going to rescue us from everything that we couldn't deal with, but just because it would be nice, or because people can't deal with there not being a god, doesn't just make it true. I wish more people could deal with reality.

[jmarie]

Jerry Falwell served God's purposes for his generation. Was he perfect? No, but no one is, we all sin. Did he have some strike outs? Absolutely, I am not denying that.

But the thing about Jerry Falwell was the he wasn't afraid to swing and by doing so he did hit some home runs...And I am looking at Thomas Road Baptist Church and Liberty University.

Jerry Falwell wasn't all bad. His faux pas certainly stand out, but he did a lot of good, as well.

What do you want to bet that there were as many signs of memorials around his campus that were never shown on television because of his reputation with the media? Memorials that were made out of love for the man.


You saw one side of the man, but I guarantee you that there were two sides of this man...It is very difficult to take an unpopular stand in this world today...Right or wrong, I admire him for sticking to his beliefs and when he felt he was wrong, apologizing.

[blazedog]

Jerry Falwell served God's purposes for his generation. Was he perfect? No, but no one is, we all sin. Did he have some strike outs? Absolutely, I am not denying that.

But the thing about Jerry Falwell was the he wasn't afraid to swing and by doing so he did hit some home runs...And I am looking at Thomas Road Baptist Church and Liberty University.

Jerry Falwell wasn't all bad. His faux pas certainly stand out, but he did a lot of good, as well.

What do you want to bet that there were as many signs of memorials around his campus that were never shown on television because of his reputation with the media? Memorials that were made out of love for the man.


You saw one side of the man, but I guarantee you that there were two sides of this man...It is very difficult to take an unpopular stand in this world today...Right or wrong, I admire him for sticking to his beliefs and when he felt he was wrong, apologizing.

Are you saying that his stands were just "unpopular" -- that means that you believe that the following statements are correct and you share that belief but that they are merely "unpopular" -- as opposed to being wrong.

I think the man's words can speak for themselves --

AIDS is not just God's punishment for homosexuals; it is God's punishment for the society that tolerates homosexuals."


God does not hear the prayers of a Jew.

If he's going to be the counterfeit of Christ, [the Antichrist] has to be Jewish. The only thing we know is he must be male and Jewish.

If you're not a born-again Christian, you're a failure as a human being.

The abortionists have got to bear some burden for [the attacks of Sept. 11] because God will not be mocked. And when we destroy 40 million little innocent babies, we make God mad. I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People for the American Way -- all of them who have tried to secularize America -- I point the finger in their face and say, 'You helped this happen.'

[newcook]

My problem with it jmarie is that he did it in the name of Christianity. He ate the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil by the shovel full and then did what Eve did with Adam, he gave to everyone else and said it looks really good, here take and eat.

It seems acceptable to many religious leaders to completely disobey the Lords actually spoken words about loving one another as He loved us, and not judging others lest we be judged, etc, and yet having no trouble at all insisting that other people obey laws that God never gave, such as not drinking, not dancing etc.

The Lord Jesus, who had every right to get into political power, did not. In fact he shunned it. He told his followers to be separate from the things of the world, and here we are jumping into the power system of the world hook, line and sinker.

[ADM]

http://www.myembarq.com/news/read.php?id=15129243&ps=1011&cat=&cps=0&lang=en

[hlao23]

The second paragraph is also interesting, because it points out one of the great flaws in the idea of the Christian heaven. What about people who have never heard about the Christian god? What about all of the people who lived before Jesus? Hell must be full of good, loving people who lived virtuous lives, but are punished due to when and where they were born.


Haven't read past this but I wanted to respond. There is not just one idea of a "Christian" heaven. Some of us (myself included) believe that the very act of Jesus' sacrifice changed things and made it possible for people to go to heaven whether or not they know about or accept his sacrifice. It's awfully complicated to get into on a BB but I wanted to put it out there.

Obviously I'm from one of the more liberal Christian traditions and I don't think that the denomination preaches this per se but I've been lucky enough to have a few wonderful ministers who were willing to discuss a lot of questions and certainly helped some things make more sense to me. There are also, as I believe others have mentioned, a lot of cultural issues about some biblical laws that need to be taken into account. You can't ignore the fact that, to some extent, everyone makes God in his/her own image. Yes, there is a reality but we can't help coloring God with our own experiences.

End of hijack...
I'll shut up and keep reading ;) :)

[blazedog]

From Sunday's NY Times -- flew below my cultural radar but I will set the TIVO and catch a few episodes.

Holy Satire! Faith-Based Mockery

By DAN CRANE

THE Crusades took place during the Dark Ages, which was a very pious and righteous time during our history,” explains a teacher on a recent episode of the religious family satire “Moral Orel.” “Then the Renaissance came along and ruined everything when artists started taking the clothes off all their paintings.”

Now in its second season, “Moral Orel” is a 15-minute stop-motion animated show that is shown Sunday nights at 12:15 a.m. on the Adult Swim block of the Cartoon Network. The network, a unit of Turner Broadcasting, recently renewed the series for a third season; a DVD of the first 15 episodes, “Moral Orel: The Unholy Version,” was released last month.

As its time slot indicates, the show is not meant for children. It tells the story of a blissfully pious boy, Orel Puppington, whose absurdly literal interpretations of church sermons lead him to unholy acts like smoking crack or impregnating numerous women. In one episode, convinced that the dead are wasting God’s greatest gift, life, Orel performs necromancy rituals in the local cemetery; within minutes the neighborhood is overrun with zombies.

Aesthetically “Moral Orel” recalls “Davey and Goliath,” the children’s show produced by the Lutheran Church in the 1960s. Still, Dino Stamatopoulos, the show’s creator, is wary of the comparison.

“Some people say it’s a parody, and then they’re like, ‘Where’s the dog?,’ and to me it’s its own show,” he said. “There’s no getting around that it’s religious, but the word parody to a comedian is a dirty word, because one has to know what the show is parodying to like it.”

Mr. Stamatopoulos said that the show grew out of a concept for a send-up of a “Leave It to Beaver”-style 1950s family comedy that would star Iggy Pop. Eventually, that idea evolved into a cartoon. The stop-motion animation style was selected, and Mr. Stamatopoulos was partnered with ShadowMachine Films, the animators for another Adult Swim show, “Robot Chicken.”

“Moral Orel” takes place in Moralton, Statesota, a town built around a church led by the bitter Reverend Putty, whose coffee mug reads, “I hate my boss.” In an episode titled “God’s Image,” Orel — taking to heart Reverend Putty’s proclamation that “some people look more like God than others” — thinks he’s pleasing the Lord by leading an effort to segregate the town. The plan literally backfires, resulting in most of Moralton up in flames. “This time,” Orel’s father tells him, “righteous was wrongteous.”

In the hypocritically devout world of “Moral Orel,” everyone botches the Bible, from Miss Censordall, the book-burning librarian, to protestors at a diner who carry signs reading “God Hates Fats.” To Mr. Stamatopoulos, Moraltonians just reflect evangelical culture. “I’ve had friends tell me they knew people exactly like these characters,” said Mr. Stamatopoulos, whose writing credits include “Mr. Show” and “Late Night With Conan O’Brien.” “But I don’t even think I go far enough.”

Dan Isett, director of corporate and government affairs at the Parents Television Council, a nonprofit media advocacy group, disagreed. “You can’t very well argue that it’s merely satirical when the content is what it is,” he said. “It’s heavy-handed propaganda and mocking of people of religious faith.”

Aside from a couple of negative reviews on conservative blogs, there has been little outrage from viewers, perhaps due to the intentionally quiet introduction of the series. “We didn’t do quite the same push as we do for some of our other shows,” said Nick Weidenfeld, who heads development at Adult Swim, “because we wanted it to build its audience before groups like the religious right could freak out about it.”

Working on the show has caused problems for Jay Johnston and Scott Adsit, both of whom write and direct and provide voices for many of its characters. Mr. Johnston upset a few relatives at a family reunion when he screened episodes of “Orel,” and Mr. Adsit encountered family protests as well. “My sister’s a devout Christian,” said Mr. Adsit, who also plays Pete Hornberger on NBC’s “30 Rock.”

Mr. Adsit showed his sister, Andrea, early episodes and “she just didn’t like it,” he said. “She didn’t think it was funny, and thought it was insulting and that I was making fun of her, which I’m not. We’re making fun of hypocrites.”

To keep the peace Mr. Adsit quit “Moral Orel.” But shortly thereafter he was surprised to find that his sister had revised her opinion. “She said, ‘I watched the first two episodes of the second season and thought they were really smart and funny.’ ” He promptly rejoined the show.

“In the end it’s just comedy,” Mr. Weidenfeld said. “It’s an incredibly tightly written show, with probably the strongest narrative structure of anything we have on the network.”

Alex Bulkley, co-owner of ShadowMachine, described “Moral Orel” as “blasphemous on every level” but contended that “it’s one of those great shows that makes people think.” The fact that it’s on Adult Swim, he suggested, “allows us to laugh about something that most people are really afraid to talk about.”

[bobmark226]

What do you want to bet that there were as many signs of memorials around his campus that were never shown on television because of his reputation with the media? Memorials that were made out of love for the man.



Don't start me on so-called Memorials, one of Middle Class America's newest forms of street entertainment, in which Moms and Pops drag their kiddies to the site of various tragedies for them to place stuffed animals (however irrelevant), plastic flowers, pathetic homemade signs, etc. etc. Loss, tragedy have become meaningless in an effort to "say something" that somehow mysteriously removes the pain or loss. Someone should put some of these in a time capsule to show just how large a part junk plays in the culture of Death in America.

I don't doubt Falwell has many from the Christian Freakazoid admirers. My favorite memorial of all time, though, was an an area pit BBQ place that had a pet potbellied pig outdoors on the premises. Yes, the pig one day died, and while she was no doubt more deserving of the attention than Falwell ever was, a very large memorial to her developed over time.

So spare me the memorial counts, Joyce, because even a lowly hawg can be deserving of the public's love and tacky displays of affection.

Bob

[testkitchen45]

But shortly thereafter he was surprised to find that his sister had revised her opinion. “She said, ‘I watched the first two episodes of the second season and thought they were really smart and funny.’ ”

And, as further evidence that conservative evangelicals really can have a great, edgy sense of humor (unfortunately, Falwell evidently didn't), including the ability to poke fun at one's own imperfections:

http://www.wittenburgdoor.com/current_issue.html

:D

[Gumbeaux]

I don't doubt Falwell has many from the Christian Freakazoid admirers.

Me neither! :D

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/05/22/va.bombarrest/index.html

[jmarie]

So spare me the memorial counts, Joyce

Done, old Roberto.

[hlao23]

Just digging though old files on my computer today and seeing if I can delete and rearrange. I found some quotes that I love and had forgotten about. A couple of the seem applicable for this thread.

Going along with the topic, mind you, not directed at BB members.

"There is nothing more frightful than ignorance in action."
- Goethe

"Howsoever men try to worship Me, so do I welcome them. By whatever path they travel, it leads to Me at last." (Bhagavad-Gita IV:11)

I think Hinduism rocks in that there's no proselytizing...you are what you are basically.