Advice Needed: Craigslist debacle (long!)

[AdGirl]

hi everyone,

so i have a dilemma that i've been trying to deal with the past few days. i just need some other people to weigh in on the situation, and i knew i could count on the folks here!

so i am going back to business school this fall in chicago and am moving out of my apartment in providence next week. obviously since i'm going to be a student again (read: broke and in debt), i've been trying to save money every place i can. i therefore decided to keep moving costs down and sell a lot of my furniture. i posted these items on craigslist around may 10 because i knew i was going to be traveling all of last week and wanted to get the ball rolling.

so for one of my items that was listed for $200, i show it 4 times before this young guy comes over that saturday may 12 to look at it and then says he wants it. he gives me half the price ($100) as a deposit and says he'd like to come pick it up on tuesday. at that point i remove the posting from craigslist and call/email all the people who'd expressed interest to tell them that it was no longer for sale.

the next day, he then calls me back and tells me that he doesn't need it anymore and offers to let me keep $20 and give back $80 because of my trouble. i'm pretty annoyed at this point since i now have to relist it and show it again. i contact the people who i'd said no to the day before but they already bought something else.

to make matters worse, i then went out of town for a week and a half and just got back. i didn't have my cellphone on me (i was out of the country) but came back to a bunch of voicemails from this guy asking for his money back. i wrote him an email telling him that the whole point of a deposit is to ensure that the person who says they will take the item will actually take it. and if they don't, then they lose the deposit. after he said he was going to take it, i told the other people who were interested that it was sold. it's not just a matter of my inconvenience of having to repost it on craigslist and reshow it to people, it's also that the people who were already interested were turned away that would have possibly bought it. i also said that since i've been out of town, i haven't been able to show or sell the item. i'm stuck now and while i might be able to find someone to buy it, i probably will have to reduce the price to get rid of it before i move. i'm ended by saying that afraid i'm not going to be able to give back his deposit.

he responded saying he thought i was being unreasonable because it wasn't like it was a week or two later, it was the next day. he also said he really needs the money and can't believe want to keep the deposit for a free ad from craigslist. he then ended by saying "i still expect a refund."

do you think i'm being unfair about wanting to keep the deposit? isn't that the whole freaking point of a deposit? now i'm going to have to scramble to find someone else to buy it in the next 4 days and i probably won't get the price i was asking for originally. i'm not sure what relevance the point about craigslist being free has...

i'm on the fence of how to proceed. the way i see it, here are my 3 choices:

1. stick to my guns and not give back any of the deposit
2. try to sell it and if i have to reduce my price then deduct that from his deposit and give back the rest
3. give back the $80 he'd said he wanted back

thoughts/opinions?

[Robyn1007]

Before I even read your 3 options I was thinking that you should do option 2. Tell him he will receive the $80 back so long as you are able to sell the sofa for the amount you had listed (keep the $20 he offered you for your trouble and time). If you are forced to reduce the price then take that amount out of the deposit and return the remainder. I agree, a deposit is a guarantee against your loss should the sale not go through.

Of course, now you have me nervous, I'm supposed to pick up a bike rack from a guy today that I found on craigslist.

[DmOrtega]

If you stated in your ad that you will accept a non-refundable deposit then you can and should keep it all. If not but made a verbal agreement about keeping the $20 then give back the $80 and consider this a lesson. Make it clear the next time that the deposit of $XX to hold the item is non-refundable. Get it in writing about how long you are willing to wait for the balance before you will try to resell the item.

[kima]

If it were me I would give him the 80.00 back.

Call me paranoid but I would rather not worry about what this guy might do-and I can't even articulate what I mean by that! I just hate hassle with people and it is only money...and a small amount at that.


I would just relist my stuff and try again.

[AdGirl]

dmortega, actually it was neither. in my previous experiences with craigslist, people have for the most part taken the item immediately. a few have given deposits but they actually took the item. i've never had this sort of thing happen.

he's the one who said "i can't pick it up until tuesday, how about i give you half now and half then?" there was never any discussion of what would happen if he backed out. the $80 return didn't come up until he decided he didn't want it anymore.

thanks robyn for your thoughts. hope everything works out with your bike rack! i generally have good experiences with craigslist, but there are a few bad apples out there :)

[Curiosity Hears]

I too would give him back the $80. By asking for only eighty back in the first place he recognized that you might be out a little bit and offered you twenty dollars for the trouble. Unless you have it written in your add or made a verbal agreement that deposits were non refundable, you owe him the money, imo.

Best wishes selling what you want to sell. How exciting to be moving to Chicago and going back to school. You have much to look forward to.

[Robyn1007]

Wow, I guess I'm in the minority here but the way I see it she is potentially out $200 if she can't sell the thing to someone else and she had other people interested before she told them no since he said he would take it. When I was in college $200 would feed me for a month so it meant a helluva lot more then than it does to me in today's financial circumstances.

[cchhbb]

I would do option 2.

[funniegrrl]

I'm with Robyn. It's unfortunate there wasn't a discussion of the consequences of his deciding against completing the transaction, and his understanding of "deposit" is different from yours (and mine). I agree, a deposit is usually non-refundable. The circumstances don't matter ... the amount of time that passed, the fact of your schedule, etc. are irrelevant. The entire point is that he claimed the item and gave you part of the purchase price so that you would hold it and not sell it to anyone else. He can release his claim but he loses the money. To me there is a fourth option: Tell him the item is essentially his but he owes you the $100 balance. (Ha! Take that!) He can figure out what to do with it.

Yeah, I know that's not a likely outcome. I would be tempted to keep the entire $100 for the reasons above. If you want to be accomodating you can try your option #2, making it clear that if the item does not sell, you will keep his entire deposit. I would also make it crystal clear that you have no obligation to do this, you are just being nice. If for some reason you have to resort to the $20/$80 discussion, I would seriously up the ante and offer $50/$50, again making it clear you're doing it out of the goodness of your heart. That would be a last resort, though.

It would be interesting to hear what a contract lawyer would say about this situation.

[AdGirl]

thanks everyone for your opinions!

i think i might have been more accomodating if i had ample time to try and get the full price for my item. but i'm moving on monday and haven't had that many bites on the relist. i might be able to get rid of it, but it is a huge hassle to constantly set up times and sit around waiting for people to come take a look (and half the time they say they'll come and not show up). honestly, i think my time and this hassle is worth more than $20 and i'm kind of pi$$ed that he thinks he is entitled to a refund. what was the point of putting a deposit in the first place? yes it protects him from my selling the item to someone else, but it is supposed to protect me too in this exact event.


If for some reason you have to resort to the $20/$80 discussion, I would seriously up the ante and offer $50/$50, again making it clear you're doing it out of the goodness of your heart. That would be a last resort, though.


at this point i don't have to resort to anything if i don't want to. he gave me the deposit in cash and i'm moving out so i'm not sure what recourse he has. i'm surprised he's taking a somewhat hard stance, it's not like he has any chips to bargain with. you'd think he'd be a little nicer...

i'd love to hear what a contract lawyer has to saw about this as well!

[Robyn1007]

Well, I'm glad I'm not alone! ;)

Well, I'm off to the mountains to camp and 4 wheel for the night so I hope everything works out okay!

[HejazSunKat]

do you think i'm being unfair about wanting to keep the deposit? isn't that the whole freaking point of a deposit? now i'm going to have to scramble to find someone else to buy it in the next 4 days and i probably won't get the price i was asking for originally. i'm not sure what relevance the point about craigslist being free has...



Man do I hate whiners. :rolleyes: NO you are certainly not being unfair. What he gave you was a good faith deposit, he reneged on the deal, he loses. Nothing hard about that concept. Keep it.

[MKSquared]

Keep the deposit. You turned away other buyers only after he said he'd take it. Now, not only are you out the selling price, but you also need to get the sofa out of your current place.

Put it up on the "free" section!

And don't worry too much about this guy -- it's not like he'll follow you out to Chicago. :)

[AdGirl]

a quick update... so i sent the guy an email yesterday pretty much copying what funniegrrl said word for word (thanks!!!). here it is:

It's unfortunate that we didn't discuss the consequences of your deciding against completing the transaction, and that your understanding of "deposit" is different from mine. To me (and to most other people I'd imagine), a deposit is usually non-refundable. The circumstances don't matter ... the amount of time that passed, that the posting was free, etc. are irrelevant. The entire point is that you claimed the item and gave me part of the purchase price so that I would hold it and not sell it to anyone else. It not only protects you so that I don't resell it, but protects me from this exact situation. Why you feel entitled to a refund is completely baffling.


he has yet to respond. regardless, i think i'm going to keep the deposit. i still haven't gotten rid of it and i'm moving tomorrow! what a royal pain!

[LiaHuber]

Ooooh, I feel for you. I had a HUGE debacle with Craig's list about renting an apartment in NYC for a week (I, stupidly, paid for the whole thing in advance and then the guy turned out to be a pro con man . . . I lost $450 and had to file a police report and cancel my trip!), so I'm always wary when I approach Craig's List.

Personally, I think I'd give him his whole deposit back and just start from scratch -- if only just to separate myself from his "bad juju", if you know what I mean. You don't want to be getting hassled by this guy six months from now, you know?

So my advice is, clean break, clean slate. But I still feel for you . . .;)

Cheers,
Lia

[Middydd]

If it were me I would give him the 80.00 back.

Call me paranoid but I would rather not worry about what this guy might do-and I can't even articulate what I mean by that! I just hate hassle with people and it is only money...and a small amount at that.


I would just relist my stuff and try again.

Totally agree!!

[avariell]

maybe the lesson to be learned is to set up a second hotmail (etc) email account to use with craigslist, so you can keep his money - move to chicago, and he will never be able to hassle you again via email :)

i would keep the deposit because that is the point of a deposit... good luck!

[funniegrrl]

Good for you! And I like your version better than mine! :D

[AdGirl]

ok here's another update to this sordid tale...

so i finally sold the item for $175. incidentally, the item was a bedroom set, which was a dresser, mirror, side table and headboard. in other words, 4 big, clunky, hard-to-get-rid-of-in-a-hurry pieces. i was tempted to write the guy back and tell him that i would refund his deposit minus the $25 i had to reduce my item by, but when i logged in to my email i was greeted with an email from him.

"if you feel good about going through technicalities of a word to take money from a veteran and college student by all means enjoy yourself. but be advised that if i dont get a refund i will not hesitate to pay $200 court fees just to prove a point. "

that was it. seriously, is he f'ing kidding? court over this? and prove what point? HE'S the one who backed out. why am i the one being villainized? i'm really just baffled at this point. and what is the crap about him being a student and a veteran? first of all, i'm a student now too! if i didn't desperately need the money then i would have just given away the furniture and not dealt with a$$holes like him on craigslist. i don't see what his being a veteran has to do with anything at all. and i really resent his insinuating that i was out to steal money from him. all i wanted was to sell my stupid bedroom set.

i'm so angry i can barely even talk about this without yelling!

seriously, any lawyers out there have anything to say about the legalities of the situation? aggie? blazedog? someone? :)

[avariell]

does he even know your full name?
realistically does he have any way to track you down? i would dare him to take me to court over this. but i have been known to cut off my nose to spite my face at times... ;) :D

[AdGirl]

unfortunately, yes. your previous point about setting up a new email address for craigslist stuff was well-taken, i was dumb and used my personal email acct which uses my full name. live and learn, i guess.

i read up on small claims court in RI briefly and apparently after the plaintiff files the claim, the defendant gets served via certified mail. but i moved out on monday and the forwarding address that both the post office and my ex-landlord have is in texas. not sure how i would even get served with the papers...?

regardless, i doubt he'll go through with it. but i am really wondering now if my self-righteousness is founded. in other words, legally is he right or am i?

[Robyn1007]

Maybe you could go over to lawyers.com and ask the question on their message boards. They have an area specifically for contracts.

Oh, and on the veterans thing. I have th utmost respect for our veterans and hate that some people choose to use it as a guilt trip and a reason that they should be treated any different than any other individual. I'm guessing that Judge Judy would have a laugh over this one.

[gertdog]

Ugh- really sorry you're dealing with all this, and how unfortunate that he's being such a jerk!

I did want to say a word about my experience with deposits- this is based on vacation rentals rather than items for sale, but I often see contracts that state that you put down, say, a $250 deposit to hold the rental date. If you cancel by a certain date, they'll refund the deposit minus a $25 processing fee (or whatever amount). In fact, I don't think I've dealt with a contract that included a completely non-refundable deposit. In some cases, I've seen it written that they'll refund your deposit IF they are able rebook the dates they were holding for you (similar to what some of the above posters were suggesting- give him back the deposit only if you're able to sell the item). Anyway, I just wanted to share my experience, in case you decide to list things on Craigslist again in the future- you might state specifically how deposits will be handled.

Good luck with your move and business school!

[kima]

This is the kind of stress and hassle that I would have wanted to avoid so I would have given him the money back and moved on.

But then I am the type of person who dreads trying to get a good deal on a mattress. :o :o
Money just doesn't get me worked up and my peace of mind is more important than being right.

I hope it all goes away when you move.

[aggie94]

Hey AdGirl,

I read your dilemma over the weekend but didn't get a chance to respond. I do agree with what funniegrrl said and would have done exactly what you did.

As far as the legality of whether there was a contract to begin with, I'd say it could go either way but that you have a pretty strong case if he does decide to sue you (and can serve you). There was a verbal agreement that he would buy the items and, as evidence of that, he gave you a deposit of half and told you when he would pick it up. If he knew you were removing the listing at that time, that's even stronger evidence. I do think you will be fine if you have to defend yourself, but keep in mind that in a lot of places, you will be forced to mediate the case before it goes to trial in small claims court, and mediators in small claims cases a lot of times just want to see the parties split the baby down the middle.

HTH, and sorry you got burned - what a PITA.

[avariell]

another thought- at this point, i would no longer respond to any emails or have contact with him. i would, however, keep records of any emails he sends.

i would just say seeya old life and move on to chicago :)

[Kristilyn1]

First off, I would have gladly driven down to RI to pick up a bedroom set for $200! I'm looking for one for our condo....but anyway.

I buy and sell quite frequently on craigslist and I think you are way in the clear here on keeping his money. He was a stupid jacka$$ if he really thought he could give you half and then "change his mind". What he should have done is bought the item and then resold it himself, if he had time to wait, he probably could have made a profit. People in the wrong rarely see things clearly, so don't let his vehemence worry you. As far as filing a suit. Having lived in RI, he will die of old age before he is able to completely fill out the paperwork. Let him prove his point. If for some freak reason you get served papers, fork it over then to avoid the hassle. I say ball's in his court. He's mad, big whoop.

Kristi

[AdGirl]

so i took robyn's advice and went to lawyers.com and the advice i got was that technically i'm in the right here and am entitled to the full $100. but the issue of my moving out of RI could be a problem because if he does in fact go through with it and they can't serve me papers, then he automatically wins and i owe him the $. plus if i am never notified of any of it and therefore don't pay the settlement, then it will go on my credit report for 7 years. :eek:

so i caved and offered to split the amount with him $50/$50. and the jerk said no, he wants the full amount and if we can't solve this like adults then he'll just see me in court.

what a PITA. i'm thinking maybe i'll just let the RI small claims court know my new address so that they can contact me if the papers are filed?

or i guess i could just give him the $100 back. i hate people sometimes.

[Mpenny1001]

Ya know, I would just tell him you'd be happy to take this to court as your lawyer has assured you that you are in the right. I don't think you want to give him your new address, and I'm not sure the small claims court will take your address if there isn't a pending action with you, but you can try that. If he wants to sue you, let him. At that point you can decide if you want to give him the $100 or take it to mediation or whatever. But, I think the chances that he will actually go to the trouble of filing all the paperwork are kind of slim, so if you sit tight now you may be able to just keep his deposit.

[Gilgamesh37]

I'd give him the money back. It's not worth the expense you'll incur if you come back to RI to defend yourself in small claims, never mind all the other possible repercussions...it's just not worth it, even if you may technically be in the right under the law.

[avariell]

Ya know, I would just tell him you'd be happy to take this to court as your lawyer has assured you that you are in the right. I don't think you want to give him your new address, and I'm not sure the small claims court will take your address if there isn't a pending action with you, but you can try that. If he wants to sue you, let him. At that point you can decide if you want to give him the $100 or take it to mediation or whatever. But, I think the chances that he will actually go to the trouble of filing all the paperwork are kind of slim, so if you sit tight now you may be able to just keep his deposit.

ditto.
i realize a lot of posters don't think this is worth the hassle, but the guy is a bit of a bully and i think he is trying to intimidate you. i dont think his behavior should be encouraged :)

[ChristyMarie]

After that I'd so the "fine, sue me" route. You can always call the court to check if anything has been filed. Pain, yes but I doubt this guy is going to go to that much trouble for $100. Did you save the email where you offered to split the difference? Shows he's being unreasonable in my opinion.

[AdGirl]

you guys are awesome, it's very cathartic to vent here! :)

ok so here was his email:

i appreciate your offer but i have made up my mind and believe i am entitled
to all of my money. and if you disagree with me then we will see each other
in court. and im not making threats i just tried to let you know that i am
willing to go a more formal route if you and i cannot resolve this as
adults.


and here was my response:

i was trying to resolve this as adults, which is why i offered to return a portion of the deposit to you. if you take a step back and look at this situation objectively and not with your emotions then you'll see that. clearly both of us think we are right in this matter or it wouldn't have gotten this far. my offer was an attempt for us to put this behind us.

the office of RI small claims court states that "Every attempt by both parties should be made in "good faith" to settle this claim either before the trial date or on the day of trial." by your denying my offer, which absolutely was an attempt to settle the issue in good faith, i now have written record that you have no interest in settling the claim in good faith.

if you are unwilling to agree to a very fair offer to resolve this matter "as adults," as you put it, then i suppose the only option is to meet in court. please do me the courtesy of letting me know via email when you have filed the motion since i will be moving around a lot this summer.

take care, and do let me know if you reconsider my offer.

it was originally a lot nastier but i figured antagonizing him further wasn't going to solve anything. this is quite a lot of melodrama for $100... where's the popcorn-eating smiley when you need it? :p

[PAMMELA]

That was a very mature, professional, unemotional email. Kudos to you for taking the high road.

Looking foward to his answer.

[avariell]

I need the popcorn eating emoticon too!

I can't wait to hear how he responds... :)
great job on remaining calm and detached in your email - i probably would have sounded crazy and p!ssed. your way was much more mature :p ;)

[aggie94]

but the issue of my moving out of RI could be a problem because if he does in fact go through with it and they can't serve me papers, then he automatically wins and i owe him the $.

Now granted, I am not licensed in RI and know nothing about its state laws, but I would be very surprised if this were true. In every jurisdiction where I've practiced, you HAVE to serve someone with a complaint before you can proceed with a lawsuit. That's the point of a summons and service. If he can't serve you, he does not "automatically win." He's just SOL. If he serves you and you don't answer, THEN he could file for a default judgment and "automatically win," but it still requires that he prove that valid service was effected.

[AdGirl]

aggie, i also don't understand how a judgment could be made if i were never served with a summons. here's what the guy on lawyer.com said:

As for small claims court, that you are moving out of state makes you vulnerable to having a default judgment follow you around on your credit report for the next 7 years.

That may not happen, but we've had a lot of people post here finding out about old default judgments that they say they never knew about.

There are many allowable methods of process service, including service by publication, that could allow a default judgment to occur.


the website for RI small claims court isn't really that specific on what happens if they can't serve the defendant with papers after a certain point:

The clerk sends the papers to the defendant by certified mail. Once in a while this is unsuccessful. If that happens, then you will have to have a sheriff or constable serve the papers, and the sheriff or constable will charge you a fee for this service. The clerk can tell you how to get a sheriff or constable. If you win the case, you are entitled to recover the costs from the defendant. You should contact the Small Claims Clerk for complete information on fees.

[aggie94]

Okay, that makes more sense. Yes, there are different types of service. And service by publication is one of them, where they publish an ad in a newspaper that meets certain criteria. But that is considered valid service in some circumstances, so in essence, that's correct that you could have a default judgment entered against you without actually knowing about the lawsuit, but you would still be considered to have been served.

Also keep in mind that if you are served after you move, you will still have to travel back to RI for the mediation and/or trial itself. You can attempt to recover those costs from him if you are successful in defending yourself, but a lot of times courts will not award the full amount of what you've spent to defend yourself, so it might end up costing you more than what this guy is after.

You might consider whether it's worth it, or whether you think this guy will go through with filing a lawsuit at all. One option might be to just give the guy back all but what you lost on the sale ($25) and then let him sue you for the rest if he wants, which I sincerely doubt he would since it would cost him more than to file the suit itself.

[badunnin]

so i caved and offered to split the amount with him $50/$50. and the jerk said no, he wants the full amount and if we can't solve this like adults then he'll just see me in court.



I love how his idea of solving this like adults is his pouting until he gets his way. He probably threw in a foot stomp for good measure. Good luck with this.

[DmOrtega]

I hope this is all worth whatever you may get, at the end.

[GingerPow]

Maybe it's just me, but his 100 bucks is not worth this stress. I'd toss the cash at him, tell him to disappear then get on with my life. As Lia said, you don't need the "bad juju." :D Don't let this hold you back from moving on to better things.

[blazedog]

You are out of pocket $25 -- at best he owes you $25 so you should pay him $75 -- I believe the original deposit was $100. Those were your damages unless I am missing something.

As to all the drama that has ensued -- what can I say -- at this point -- legally and (at least IMO) morally, he is entitled to his deposit less actual damages.

I would refund his money -- he would probably win in small claims court (putting aside the jurisdiction issue) but really -- do you want to go through all of this drama to avoid returning money that you aren't legally entitled to?

[Lrimerman]

If you really want to see if he goes to court, I would sign a paper giving your old landlord permission to accept service on your behalf and since they have your forwarding address, ask them to contact you. See if your landlord would be willing to do this. Then let the guy know that if he wishes to proceed that he can serve the landlord.

However, since you did sell the item, I agree with Blazedog. I would assume any judge will rule that you owe him $75.00

I would email him explaining that this is your final offer. It is only $5 more than he first suggested and it makes you whole, as well as mentioning to him that it no where near compensates you for the hassle, but you are willing to do so in good faith.

Lisa

[Arete]

And if he accepts your offer, if you pay him with a check put something in the memo area stating that by cashing the check he accepts this as full and final refund of the deposit. If you pay him by cash, have him sign something to that effect.

[mbrogier]

I think you should pay him back the $75 in pennies.


Welcome to Chicago!

[PAMMELA]

I think you should pay him back the $75 in pennies.




OMG Yes!!!!!! That would be great!

[Robyn1007]

I think you should pay him back the $75 in pennies.


Welcome to Chicago!

That's the best idea yet! HAHAHAHAHA! :D :D :D