What happened to us??

[do-lolly]

Sorry for the rant y'all, but I just have to ask this question.

DH and I are both GenX'ers and have kids that are pre-teen age. We were discussing the craziness that goes on with parents and their kids today. The obsession of making sure that your kids are on the A honor roll to the point of getting them tutoring if the grade drops below to, heaven forbid, a "B". Being impressed with a school that is teaching geometry in 5th grade. (never mind that they haven't fully mastered basic math, but hey, they're doing geometry, isn't that impressive) Bragging about the hours of homework that your 3rd grader had last night.

Trying to make Johnny be an all-star on his little league team. Playing travel ball for 9 months out of the year and learning to throw a curve ball by age 10. The justification being, "If he doesn't play travel ball then he will never make it to the Little League World Series." This is not just baseball, it extends to every sport, if Sarah doesn't start tumbling at 3, she will never make the high school cheerleading squad. Not to mention that their schedules are packed with so many extra curricular stuff after school that they need their own PDA to keep up with it.

The parents are not only competing with each other about their kids, they also have to have the biggest house, in the biggest neighborhood, with nicest car, and living in the best school district, (or at least have your children enrolled in the best private school that money can buy) Hell, I talked to a friend of mine just last week who mentioned that his 2 year old just got into the most sought after church preschool in his town. Apparently it's on a lottery system and even one of the church leaders kids didn't get in. I ask you, what on earth could be so special about a pre-school, for a 2 year old mind you, that you would need to be on a lottery list, and then brag to friends that your child got in? What does a two year old need to do other than color & play???

Here's my question. What happened to make our generation this way?? I grew up in the 70's & 80's and we were allowed to be kids. This stuff wasn't important to us growing up. Our parents didn't preach this gospel to us, so we didn't learn it from them. We had happy, carefree summers, and played sports for fun. If we won a magazine selling contest, it was because we went out and sold them, not because our mom wanted to make sure we were the top seller and so therefore took the form to work and sold to every person she spoke to. Our GenX group was a concern to other generations, because we were viewed as being apathetic. What on earth has happened to make us this way? I would love to hear your opinions.

[dixie]

I'm anxious to hear other's replies...I agree, the keeping up with the Jones lifestyle has gotten out of hand and the stuff with the kids is off the charts...sports, whether or not your child is in the gifted program and what grade did they get it, from the earliest pre-school to SAT scores and college applications...its absurd in my area too. My parents say it was worse when I was growing up than when they were growing up, but it seems to me the competitiveness between parents regarding their children's activities has increased exponentially in recent years. And, I personally, think it goes hand in hand with kids being held to a much lower level of accountability than in previous generations...the "not my kid" attitude...must be the teacher's fault if they aren't in gifted, the coach's fault if they didn't make the travel team...etc.

I sound like an old grouch!

[BaileyJune]

I completely agree with you, but have no idea how this happened! I'll be interested to see what the thoughts are out there.

[KristiB]

Read The Overachievers: Secret Lives of Driven Kids by Alexandra Robbins.

It's facinating and a little horrifying.

http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/412K1RZ7EBL._SS500_.jpg

[lindrusso]

Yes, it can be frightening. Fortunately, I don't know many kids who are being pushed this way. I mostly see it when it comes to sports - kids being pushed by parents who take the fun out of it.

But, just a reminder that there are the kids who sign up for everything under the sun because they WANT to. :) My son is obsessed with sports and would play 24/7 - and he's a great athelete. We've never pushed him - he's pushed himself. I feel it's my job to see to it that he gets to do as much as he can because it's his absolute passion. Of course it's also my job to make sure he doesn't get in over his head or that other areas - such as school and family life - don't suffer because of it, so yeah, a line does need to be drawn to protect everyone involved.

I think a lot of it is just a misguided attempt to try to give kids every advantage. It's a competitive world out there and people tend to lose sight of the fact that you don't have to be the best student, the family with the biggest house and the best car, the best athlete, etc., in order to be happy.

[MaryMac]

This reminds me of something a friend/school administrator said to me this year. We have a generation of kids whose parents don't want them to be without a chair when the music stops.

[cumulus]

And many of these kids crash and burn when they hit high school.

I'm 23 and feel like I was the end of the "let kids be kids" period. My parents were very young when they had me, and encouraged me to be a kid. I was always outside, always in trouble (;) ) and very content. I was required to do one extra cirricular activity each season, but I got to pick which one I liked, and was NOT allowed to do more than two at any given time. I was never forced to participate in anything I didn't want to, and had my parents behind me no matter how well/poorly I did at each activity. I was a horrible softball player. My parents teased me a bit about it because they new it wasn't my best activity, but at the same time found it admirable that I stuck with something I wasn't the best at. I can assure you that they were proud of everything I did.

Their "hands-off" approach was incredibly beneficial to me, and I think what more recent parents are missing. Parents are WAAAAY too involved in their children's lives. I have a few too many friends from college that immediately moved back home after getting their degree because they were comfortable there. The parents doing all the scheduling and such for their kids are doing a complete disservice- and making them out to be completely dependant adults.

It's ridiculous and unhealthy. Maybe the generation born in the 70s and 80s that's having kids right now feels that they had to do everything for themselves--and don't want to have their kids go through that. I also think parents displace the expectations they have for themselves onto their kids. They couldn't get into Harvard, but maybe Johnny or Susie can. They didn't make varisty basketball, but their child will surely end up going to state.

[MaryMac]

This reminds me of something a friend/school administrator said to me this year...we have a generation of kids whose parents don't want them to be without a chair when the music stops. What will this do to them when they become adults and find that life is really not that way?

[Jazzmatazz49]

The wake-up call I had (my kids are around 30, so this is not affecting me as much) is when the teachers in the teachers' lounge the other day were talking about how their teenagers refused to drive a used car, or one that was not "cool". How bad is that!!!! These parents are buying Explorers or sports cars for their kids when they get their license!

[ChristineVA]

I'm not sure what happened but I noticed it as a gradual thing.

I graduated high school in 1981. Back then, my parents were VERY uninvolved and we were just typical kids. What I noticed, at that point, though, was that the kids I was babysitting for--they were about 4 years old in the early 80s--it was THEIR parents who started this crap. I remember these particular parents going to "Mother's Day Out", listening to Beethoven during naptimes, and doing all this "new" stuff that was so foreign to me and my generation. So, when I was 18, the parents who were approximately 10 years older were the START of this crap.

At least, in my town, it was the backlash against the schools not doing a good job and the parents were starting to wake up. Instead of using good sense, I think they just got out of control and I think we can't stop.

Also, I was reading Nora Ephron's book over the weekend (I Hate My Neck) and she has some interesting things to say about motherhood. One--that women who were working started talking about "quality" time with your kids versus "quantity" time and all the stay at home moms felt like they had to "justify" staying home so rather than just be a mom, raising kids was made out to be some "sacrament." Much of these attitudes have created the monstor parents we have today.

[Triathlon13]

Great topic of discussion--too bad more people didn't have it. I am not much older than cumulus and I look at where I started where I was in college and where I am now and I have no idea how the kids growing up today are going to do it!

I live in a city that for some reason people really feel the need to one up everyone else---you know that urge you get when you are running a race or driving a car and someone is in front of you and you think--if only I could just step it up a little I could pass them----well this is how adults and kids feel these days!

People are SO in debt because they want to live in the "nice" town outside the city or they want the big house with the pool or better yet--gotta have that Beamer because your friends do! Oh and gotta have the Coach pocketbook and Jimmy Choo shoes....yup I know tons of people like this and I have asked a few of them-do you truly like the style and colors or is it "in" to have it--almost all of them have said well it IS "in" you know and it fits everything in it or they look so cute with capris--though they are super uncomfortable.

This is what we pass on to our kids (not that I have any)-but I have contemplated even wanting kids because I don't like the way our world is going. My kids will/would have chores every weekend, help cook dinner and do dishes at night, will care about their grades enough to get their homework done and put effort into school, but it won't be the end all, they will do extracurricular activities-doesn't have to be sports-could be music-I don't care, but they will choose something they have fun at and if a year later they want to try something else and they haven't mastered the other one--by all means-go try something else----kids have WAY TOO much pressure to be great at something-why???? Why can't they be good or decent at a lot of things and not a master at any of them?

Too many parents pass down to their kids the thinking that you need to be great at everything and look the part too---let kids do their thing! And parents do your thing too... have a moderate house-so that you can still go on those great vacations that will show your children the world (they will learn more from this than anything they are taught in school-trust me--been there, done that!). Forget the BMW-get a Toyota-costs less, last as long if not longer and again-you will save money to have that swimming pool or buy the family bikes so you can bike together!

We need to show kids now that life isn't handed to them-they must work for it-believe me I was better off for it and my kids will be too! But they need to have fun too....Balance is the key to life-still trying to master it myself-but hope to pass it on if I do have kids someday!

Wish everyone out there felt the way you all do--the world would be a better place with a heck of a lot less stress (now how to get my boss to take some of the stress off of me-haha.......)!

[mrswaz]

I can't tell you how many times I am asked why my daughter isn't in sports. Um, she's six. I've been told over and over by other parents that if she's not in soccer, softball, or volleyball yet she'll never be on a team in high school- she'll be behind. :eek: While I don't think that's necessary in any way, I am dutiful and ask my daughter every time a new season rolls around, and it's always an emphatic no that she doesn't want to do the sports. But she does take ballet year-round, so she is doing something extracurricular already, and really, until she hits about sixth grade, to me one extra a week is plenty.

I hear every week from other parents at DD's dance school about how their daughters have soccer and dance, and oh my they scheduled a softball game for next week during dance class so they'll have to leave early, and I see Mom's drop off kids and dash off and then Dad's or Grandparents pick them up and shuttle them off to other activities, and it's just sad to me. So far we have the mentality that if my kids request to do an activity we will seriously consider it and see if it's possible. I do remember being in high school and having 2 or 3 activities a night, but I was in my teens and had the energy and the desire.

Right now while I want them to enjoy being kids, it can be hard thinking that maybe I am denying them an opportunity for the future. I do rationalize to myself thinking that should it get to the point where they want to go out for sports and they might be behind, I can always send them to a summer camp to master those skills. The only inkling we've had from DD has been that she'd like to learn volleyball (but doesn't want to go out for a team), and since both DH and I played in high school, we think we can help her there.

[hollysmom]

i want to read this book -http://www.revolutioninthebleachers.com/ - maybe it will explain the "psycho sports parents" that we all run into.

I think that some of this overinvolvement results from today's 'fearful lifestyle' where we cannot let the kids roam between each other's homes without worrying about them being kidnapped by some pervert (real or imagined). We drive them everywhere (where we all rode our bikes) and organize activities rather than letting them organize their own pickup games on the school field or court.

Both parents working and not being home to allow the kids to just hang out is also part of the problem - (she types from her desk at work while trying to organize summer camps for two kids). Some folks need 2 incomes, others just want the bigger house and fancy cars.

Our government allowing businesses to send all manufacturing out of this country and all the good jobs is partially to blame for the lower wages out there now. Allowing all the illegals to lower the wage rate is to blame.

Allowing these insane 'interest only' loans that allow people to buy more house than they should - thus driving up prices in NY, CA, Boston, etc - forces both parents to work in order to EVER buy a house.

(Steps off soapbox now) Its a bigger problem than just egos, I think.

SSM

[Krysia1031]

Very interesting topic....I can give a perspective on the other side of the coin. I was born in 1981, so I can say that I defintely felt the pressure of being the best and doing good in school, but I think my parents gave us some space to just be ourselves. They wanted to expose us to the things they didn't have, but never pushed us overboard. I was always envious of some of the girls who played on a traveling sports teams or special Nike training camps in the summer. Now looking back, I am glad my parents made us hung out with friends & babysit during the summer. We didn't have the biggest house or the best new designer clothes, but we traveled alot as a family and I think my parents did a great job of teaching us the really important lessons like, its o.k. not to win or be #1 all the time. Just try your hardest in whatever you do & most importantly have fun so you can look back & have good memories!

My DH & I are expecting our first in September of this year and when I think of all the pressure of being the best and at the top of the class, I am scared to death! I think things are going to change, or at least I see it our circle of friends with small children. Not all of us want to "schedule" every moment's of our kids life. I think people lack quality time together, whether it is family time or alone time. Not a scheduled event, but just to sit around & talk, goof off, or get into some trouble ;) .

[stefania4]

There was something in a regional magazine recently that relates to this. A father of a teenager said that when he was a kid his weekend activities were pretty much what his parents did - mow the lawn, go with dad to the hardware store, they'd all go to visit great-Aunt Sally in the nursing home, etc. And now, his weekends revolve around what his kids want to do - play sports, go shopping, drive them to a movie with friends, etc.

My generation (I'm 37) seems to have a big chip on its shoulder about something; I haven't figured out what. Many are also really, REALLY intensive parents. My grandmother listened to my sister talk about all the activities her Mom's group does - trips to the zoo, play dates, story hour, etc. Many of these women stay home AND have a cleaning service! Poor Grandma finally couldn't keep it in any longer and she said, "You know, when I had young children a lot of women stayed home with their kids, but we didn't just sit and stare at them all day. We had work to do and they had to entertain themselves."

[BlueMoose]

I don't know the answer to the question, but I'm NOT raising my kids like that. I don't see the point in it, and to be honest....I don't have the energy for it. I think it's more important to raise them to be GOOD people than to be the best and most accomplished in everything.

Chrisi :)

[ChristyMarie]

Many of these women stay home AND have a cleaning service!

Um...ever try cleaning with a baby? No thank you. If not for my cleaning service my house would consistently be a disaster. I wuv my maid. :D

This is an interesting topic, my little guy is only 10 months but already I get the "oh well MY baby is doing...." Please, they aren't even one yet! I am afraid indng that ine betwen ncouragng somm actiit and going ovrboard is going to be hard to find - especially if he sees peers being involved in more things than he is.

[SugarNSpice]

I was very involved with band and competitions from 3rd grade on to high school. I was so focused on and had to dedicate most of my free time to practicing and events that school was put on the back burner. I was never allowed to let my grades drop below a B, but I never pushed myself. I didn't take college prep classes, or comp-out exams, or the SAT more than once because I never felt I had the time.

Now, being a senior in college, I wish I had not focused so much on my clarinet and focused more on what I could have done to further my education.

Unless a child is a possible pro player (and how would you really know), why pressure them go over the top with sports in high school? Most students who are in sports at my university miss half their classes and don't focus on getting their degrees. They only focus on the next game and practice. I know there are many who are great students along with participating in sports, but I feel those are few and far between.

[lindrusso]

I can't tell you how many times I am asked why my daughter isn't in sports. Um, she's six. I've been told over and over by other parents that if she's not in soccer, softball, or volleyball yet she'll never be on a team in high school- she'll be behind. :eek:

But if you're child doesn't express and interest in sports, what's the point? I think you're doing the right thing by not enrolling her if she doesn't want it.

I think it's all about balance and what interests your child. Yes, I have pretty much given my life over to sports this spring, but it's only for a few months and then we have the entire summer to just be.

Sports can be a wonderful experience for children, providing THEY want it. It's not about what we want or think they SHOULD do.

My oldest played t-ball for two years and then did one year of coach-pitch. After that, he had no interest in baseball. No big deal. He found Tae Kwon Do - found it was something he loved and he has stuck with hit faithfully for 4-5 years now and is a black belt.

He also did soccer off and on, but nothing really serious. This year he decided he wanted to be on the school's soccer team - he's in middle school. Is he behind the others? Yes, and he knows it. I heard him tell his brother that he's probably one of the worst on the team. BUT he stuck with it and wants to do it again next year. I am SO proud of him for sticking with it. He tends to be the type to quit something if he's not the best. Even though he's not a soccer star, he's still getting a lot of value out of it - the physical activity is great for him (he's not a naturally active child) and he gets a sense of comraderie. I don't know what will happen when he hits high school and may not make the team, but we'll deal with that when it comes......

And besides - that's what all the sports leagues are for - if you can't make the high school team, there are plenty of leagues designed to let anyone play.

So, enroll your child in activities because it brings them joy or because they love it, not because they might be behind later if you don't. My youngest happened to show a love and passion for sports at a very young age (his first word was ball!). What if he hadn't? I wouldn't have enrolled him in something he didn't have any interest in doing, just in case some day he decided he wanted to play and might be behind. That just doesn't make any sense........ :confused:

[funniegrrl]

Hmmm.

I'm in my mid-40s and I was pushed somewhat but not because of competition; I was obviously a smart kid and "getting all As" was just ingrained in my parents' personalities. Still, I played rec league softball and basketball because I wanted to. Same with my brothers in Little League. Same with Girl Scouts, etc. We also didn't have much money -- there was no question about keeping up with the Joneses in terms of house, neighborhood, car, etc. I know at one time my parents looked at sending me to a really good private school in our area, but it was just something they couldn't afford. So, I went to our semi-crappy public high school in our semi-dying little suburban town, but was pushed to achieve academically so I could go to college and maybe get a scholarship.

I do think a lot of this current culture started in the 80s. That's when the toy & media industries started pushing "developmental" things -- the baby flashcards, the classical music tapes for toddlers, etc. That's also the same era of yuppies & rampant name-brand consumerism. Having an actual Izod shirt (later a Polo shirt) or Members Only jacket, etc. became the be-all and end-all. Winning, at all costs, became a mantra. Remember the movie Wall Street? We also are behind other nations in math and science, so people look at how, for example, the Japanese push their children and decide it must be a good thing.

It's one thing to give your child every advantage you can provide, and to encourage them to live up to their potential. The way to do that is not bankrupt yourself and live their lives for them. I agree that the flip side of this coin is that parents now find any sort of failure unacceptable, and they take care of EVERYTHING for the child. If you think it's bad when these kids hit high school, just wait until college. Dealing with this generation of students is an increasing headache for colleges. There is a name for the parents of these kids -- "helicopter parents." The hover and interfere endlessly, and the kids (a) don't know how to do anything for themselves and (b) think it is acceptable for their parent to run interference in every aspect of their lives. The parents balance their checkbook, provide wake-up calls, manage class schedules, etc., all long-distance. Most college professors have stories about parents calling them to complain about a grade give to The Little Darling. It has even started happening in the work force -- parents calling the HR dept to find out why Junior didn't get the job, or calling the boss to complain about Junior's workload or salary or the dressing-down he got for not turning in the report on time.

These parents think they're protecting and providing, but what they are doing is raising a generation of people with a sense of entitlement and no ideas about how to function in the real world.

There have been several articles about this in various publications, tv reports, etc. Here's one: http://abcnews.go.com/2020/Health/Story?id=1237868&page=2

[boisewinesnob]

I graduated high school in 1981. Back then, my parents were VERY uninvolved and we were just typical kids. What I noticed, at that point, though, was that the kids I was babysitting for--they were about 4 years old in the early 80s--it was THEIR parents who started this crap. I remember these particular parents going to "Mother's Day Out", listening to Beethoven during naptimes, and doing all this "new" stuff that was so foreign to me and my generation. So, when I was 18, the parents who were approximately 10 years older were the START of this crap.


I haven't read through the whole thread yet, but I thought the same thing. I participate in another BB forum about college admissions and all the parents are baby boomers. However, I don't think all of it is "crap" ;) but parents can get very involved with wanting the best for their kids. And sometimes they do in fact go overboard!!

[do-lolly]

Oh my!! I must have hit a nerve. I just logged on to my computer and there are too many replies for me to respond. I should have logged on earlier. LOL

And, I personally, think it goes hand in hand with kids being held to a much lower level of accountability than in previous generations...the "not my kid" attitude...must be the teacher's fault if they aren't in gifted, the coach's fault if they didn't make the travel team...etc.

I have seen this alot too.:(


This reminds me of something a friend/school administrator said to me this year. We have a generation of kids whose parents don't want them to be without a chair when the music stops.
I love this quote. LOL


At least, in my town, it was the backlash against the schools not doing a good job and the parents were starting to wake up. Instead of using good sense, I think they just got out of control and I think we can't stop.

Also, I was reading Nora Ephron's book over the weekend (I Hate My Neck) and she has some interesting things to say about motherhood. One--that women who were working started talking about "quality" time with your kids versus "quantity" time and all the stay at home moms felt like they had to "justify" staying home so rather than just be a mom, raising kids was made out to be some "sacrament." Much of these attitudes have created the monstor parents we have today.

I think you may be onto something here.

i want to read this book -http://www.revolutioninthebleachers.com/ - maybe it will explain the "psycho sports parents" that we all run into.

I think that some of this overinvolvement results from today's 'fearful lifestyle' where we cannot let the kids roam between each other's homes without worrying about them being kidnapped by some pervert (real or imagined). We drive them everywhere (where we all rode our bikes) and organize activities rather than letting them organize their own pickup games on the school field or court.

Both parents working and not being home to allow the kids to just hang out is also part of the problem - (she types from her desk at work while trying to organize summer camps for two kids). Some folks need 2 incomes, others just want the bigger house and fancy cars.



Hollysmom, I mentioned this in my discussion with DH last night. I do think this is part of the problem. When I was a kid, I walked to school, walked to the convience store up the street, went door to door selling Girl Scout cookies. I was allowed to play in my front yard with the neighborhood kids.

I also agree about the interest only loans, and think the two parent income thing must play a role. I think maybe the stay at home mom's are trying to prove something, maybe justify their time at home (and I was one of them, so I hung out with a lot of them). The working moms are working with guilt that they feel, and trying to prove to the snotty stay at homes that they are just as good of parents as they are. We are all trying to out-do each other and our kids are the weapon of choice. I think we need to be more supportive of each other and the choices we make instead of competing with each other.

Kristi, thanks for the book rec.

This is very interesting.

[funniegrrl]

There's another book out that discusses an interesting aspect of this phenom that I mentioned -- the marketing of educational toys & media. It's Buy, Buy Baby: How Consumer Culture Manipulates Parents and Harms Young Minds. I heard the author on NPR not too long ago; here's an article that discusses it: http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/2007/05/30/buy_baby/ (note, you may have to watch an ad to view the whole article if you are not a site subscriber)

[do-lolly]

You know, the sad thing is, I don't buy into all of this crap, and because I don't, my kids are suffering. I'll explain. I am raising my kids to be kids. When DS1 was in 1st and 2nd grade, I didn't spend his after school time drilling him with flash cards, and teaching him to read faster and better. I was under the impression that he learned all that he needed to in school and didn't need more teaching at home. He had homework, and once he was done with it, I allowed him to go and play. I figured that he had already had eight hours of school, plus and hour of homework and he should be allowed to go and have some fun. When his grades went from all A's in first grade, to A's & B's in second grade, and then A's, B's and an ocassional C in 3rd and 4th grade, I didn't panic and go get him tutoring. As far as I was concerned he was doing o.k., he was an average student and that was o.k. with me, becasue he was a very well rounded person. I refuse to medicate them because they are boys, acting like boys. (and I know this because when I talk to all of the other boy moms, they are all acting and behaving the same way, they just aren't like girls who sit studiously in their chairs all day and learn from lecture type of teaching. also, neither one of them are ill behaved or bouncing off walls.) Once my son hit 5th and 6th grade, my lack of over-parenting/teaching, showed up in really bad grades. He being a child of average intellegence (a little above actually) was starting to make grades that, when I was a kid, was reserved for the flunkies and thugs. I have spent the past year beating myself up because, "maybe I should have spent two hours going over flash cards each night and getting him a tutor for reading because he just can't read at 5th grade level in 2nd grade. Maybe I should have looked into getting him tested, and medicating him so that he could pay attention while sitting in a classroom for hours at a stretch." I made the terrible mistake of letting my child be just that, while the other parents were trying to create Ivy Leaguers, and now this average student is almost literally flunking out. It makes me angry.

DS2 is suffering the same fate in sports. He is a natural athlete, loves baseball, and has always had the most beautiful swing, naturally, not taught by anyone. I'm not under the illusion that he will be a shoe-in for all-stars, but, he will be a pretty good player, who always has a place on the team. I don't believe in making him perfect his skills at seven years old. I have let him try soccer, baseball, gymnastics, karate, (always one sport at a time), whatever he was interested in trying. I have no interest in putting him on a year round travel ball team to burn out by the time he is 12. He moved up to the minors this year, and he's a pretty good player, but because he hasn't made it his whole life, next to the kids who do, he looks like an average player. I think the tragedy is that, this is minor league baseball. This should be a time for learning the game, and perfecting skills. How many kids, who don't have his natural talent, will drop out next year, because "I'm not very good." I think it's just sad, that something that is suppose to be fun, is not for so many.

Stepping off my angry little soap box now.:rolleyes:

[funniegrrl]

Yeah, there's no question that it's a tough road and a fine line. Again, though, I think there's a difference between watching over a kid and challenging him/her to live up to his/her potential and engaging in developmental overkill. To me a kid who goes from As to Bs to Cs isn't just being a kid, they could be struggling for some reason. Whether it's lack of attention skills or just not trying hard enough or whatever, giving it some attention is not being overly demanding. There was NO question in my house that I would be earning A's. My parents helped me as much as I needed -- I remember the typical science projects, and hours helping me with long division, etc. But, there was never a single flashcard in my life. Reading was highly valued, and a love of books was instilled in me as a toddler. But it wasn't to give me some competitive edge, it was becaused the reading itself was valued.

Also, it's not overkill to say that if they have a talent they enjoy, they should spend some time developing it if they want to pursue it. For example: I started taking violin lessons in the 4th grade. I wanted to, it was my choice. I played violin (and later, other instruments) into college. My parents made sure I practiced at least 30 minutes just about every day. Did I want to practice every day? Well, no. It took years of mandatory practicing before I started doing it because I knew the value of it. I have a nephew who is very good at sports. He's middle-school, and he plays league softball & basketball. His parents make sure he doesn't get over-extended, and it's totally up to him to play or not. He loves it, though, and especially has dreams of playing college basketball. His parents have gotten him some serious instructional tapes on basketball fundamentals, and he practices on his own. So, encouragement -- even a little pushing -- isn't out of line when a kid has talent and a little desire. I guess the bottom line in my family is that it's OK to not want to pursue something, but if you're going to do it, do it well. Some things are non-negotiable -- with school you do as well as you are capable, and if you're not living up to your abilities, we gonna have a talk. It's OK to have standards, to insist on putting forth your best effort. The point is, you just want to be sure the standards are reasonable, and not based on what other people are doing.

[sneezles]

Gee, I get the feeling that I'm a lousy parent!:p I signed my kids up for everything. Have 3 sons and they all took tap and ballet at a very young age (to learn to control their bodies), karate when they got older (to continue to control their bodies and their emotions). Soccer, basketball and t-ball at the age of 4. Swimming lessons as infants through state competitions in junior high. Soccer camps at Texas universities where they stayed in dorms for a week (starting at age 8). Music lessons...piano, drums, clarinet (DS#1 started university as a music major). The only rule I had was that you finished a "season" and then if you didn't want to sign-up again that was fine. But I scrounged too hard to pay for lessons and activities for them to quit in the middle.

Found schools that fit their personalities and where the teachers were thrilled to be teaching. Drove the three of them to 3 different schools for years and paid 18K in tuition. They are my kids why shouldn't I make sure that they were happy to be in school?

Held them accountable for their grades but didn't demand straight A's nor did I expect or desire for them to spend 3 hours a night on homework.

Two have graduated college and are living on their own though DS#2 did move home right after school (but then so did I back in the 70s) but moved out after about 6 months. He works here on the ranch (he is the ranch manager) and is beginning his own business (raising bucking bulls) and is actually using his degree.

DS#1 works for himself and doesn't make much money but doesn't live outside his means. They were all taught that credit cards are evil and they don't carry anything but a debit card.

DS#3 is beginning his junior year and has gone to school every summer since beginning college. He's already lined up an internship for next summer.

When they were very young they were not allowed to leave the yard. When we moved to a neighborhood that had more kids they were given more freedom. Cars were given to all of them and they are responsible for the care and upkeep.

Are my kids spoiled? You betcha! Would I do it all over again? Yes sir! Are my kids contributing members of society? I like to think so.

[do-lolly]

My parents helped me as much as I needed -- I remember the typical science projects, and hours helping me with long division, etc. But, there was never a single flashcard in my life. Reading was highly valued, and a love of books was instilled in me as a toddler.

I guess the bottom line in my family is that it's OK to not want to pursue something, but if you're going to do it, do it well.

Don't get me wrong, I wasn't a hands off parent. :D I did spend hours helping with homework and projects, I just didn't go to school during lunch hours and help him study for the test that day. (yes there were parents that did that:rolleyes: ) I also agree that if your going to try it, you will stick with it, and give it your all.

[do-lolly]

Sneezles, sounds like you did a great job to me.:)

[cumulus]

Gee, I get the feeling that I'm a lousy parent!:p .

Hardly! Sounds like you did a great job :)

Isn't there a quote out there that every parent inherantly knows what each of their children need? My parents (as stated above) were very hands off with me. My sister was an overdramatic attention seeker, and my brother had learning disabilities. They put a lot more attention into those two than they ever did with me, and I think we're all better because of it.

Getting kids involved in multiple sports, and placing them in schools that fit their needs is fantastic, and I think the right thing to do. But placing undo pressure on these poor kids to try to become something that they physically or emotionally can't is where it crosses the line. Every parent should challenge their children, and encourage them along the way. But the "encouragement" can't be to the point where the parent wants "it" more than the child.

[TKay]

Great thread! I confess I had to skim most of it since I'm in a rush today. But I wanted to add this:
Don't get me started on the competitive nature of kid's parties and the goody bags/party favors being given out. Good grief!
I believe that part of how kids learn is through play--not strict bookwork and mental gymnastics. And I really think our school systems are missing the boat on this. I think our children would be better developed as people if they were allowed more playtime with shorter, more intense periods of book learning. This is how my kids' preschool is run and I see it is highly successful. The kindergarten teachers at neighboring schools say they can always tell a child who came from this preschool.
In this extremely competitive educational environment, we're raising a bunch of booksmart overachievers who have no social skills and are overly focused on getting themselves ahead. Personally, I'd rather have my kids happy than successful by society's terms.

ETA: I am a firm believer in down time. I schedule in afternoons or even full days where my kids have nothing planned. They seem to really suffer when they don't get this downtime. They get cranky and don't sleep well.

[GingerPow]

Boy this thread is right up my alley. I have been "preaching" about this topic since my kids were little. Please pardon my soapbox...

I read to my children and taught them to read before starting school to instill a love of books and literature, not to be the "best" reader in class.

Our house always had a supply of paints, markers, scissors, glue, glitter and paper so they would enjoy creating, not to be the "best" artist.

Their summers were mostly their own; limited schedules, limited t.v., a small list of chores, one camp activity if they really wanted to and it was fine if they didn't. They had to spend time outside (I had my eye on them) & we'd go to the beach.

Children need to learn how to fill their own time using their own imaginations rather than go through life regimented and scheduled. Free play-time teaches them to enjoy their own company, and deal with their fellow human beings when they are with other kids. Establishing peer relationships without being overseen and orchestrated by teachers, coaches, etc. enables them to work out differences, enjoy friendships, learn cooperation. (Remember back in the day - go outside and play & don't come back until your belly tells you it's lunch time?)

Music lessons, sports, after-school activities, all have their place and Lord knows we did plenty of that. When it became a distraction and intrusion from family time, I cut down the schedule to two activities each (times 3 kids, that's enough).

Our family dinners were more important to me, and I think in the long run, more beneficial to the children and the family in general than any outside activity would prove to be.

My oldest DD just graduated Magna Cum Laude from college, my youngest DD is consistently on the honor roll, and involved in plenty, and my DS has a very strong work ethic - he'd rather go to his afterschool job than any school activity. I'm not bragging (well, maybe just a little ;) ), but I believe that they are very self-motivated because they were allowed some breathing room. They are accepted for who they innately are instead of who I or their dad thought they should become, and most importantly (to me), they were allowed to be children.

(GingerPow stepping down now). ;)

[___Rhianna___]

I believe that part of how kids learn is through play--not strict bookwork and mental gymnastics. And I really think our school systems are missing the boat on this. I think our children would be better developed as people if they were allowed more playtime with shorter, more intense periods of book learning.

If you ask most teachers in the school systems, they'll agree with you. However, we are unfortunately federally mandated to teach so that children can spit back information on a standardized test.

Interesting topic, and with a 4-yo DD, I've really thought a lot about where to draw that fine line. I tend to lean toward the "unstructured" side of the fence on this one, I guess because I was a child in the 70s when that was the norm.

[beacooker]

I believe that part of how kids learn is through play--not strict bookwork and mental gymnastics. And I really think our school systems are missing the boat on this. I think our children would be better developed as people if they were allowed more playtime with shorter, more intense periods of book learning. This is how my kids' preschool is run and I see it is highly successful. The kindergarten teachers at neighboring schools say they can always tell a child who came from this preschool.

Is it a Montessori school? DS1 is going to a Montessori school, and I plan on keeping him there as long as they will let him, which should be until he is 11 or so. At his school, the only homework they give students in the elementary years is some spelling homework. And my understanding is that when the kids from this school move over to the public school, most of them end up going into gifted programs and AP classes.

[Triathlon13]

Sneezels-you sound like a great parent! There is a difference between wanting the best for your kids and making them into something they aren't or shouldn't be. I grew up with pretty poor parents, but grandparents that could do a lot for me-I was in dancing at age 3 (couldn't control me-go figure-haha) and then by age 4 they knew I needed more-so then along came competitive gymnastics and from there I took off! As far as schools-good for you-I am praying when I have kids I can send them to private same gender schools-I think that was part of the reason I had a rough time in school-too much going on around me--all my friends that went to all girls schools did really well and loved school (I CANNOT say the same and pretty much won't have anything to do with the town I grew up in or the people I grew up with!). Sounds like your kids have done really well-congrats!

SugarN'Spice-I would say you have done fairly well even if you don't feel you put enough into school. I put my all into sports-and while I was one of "those" athletes in college that would never go pro-I worked SO hard in college to show my prof's that not only could I play sports, but I could kick butt in their classes---I had a teacher that told me she would flunk me if I miss one of her classes to go play a game-I spoke to her and worked hard to prove her theory of athletes was wrong--I must have gotten somewhere as she at least gave me a C (though we all know I deserved an A), but at least she didn't flunk me (that and she said it in front of others so she knew she was in trouble if word got out). While I wish I was smarter growing up or knew more-there was something I learned in graduate school-all the knowledge in the world and the best scores don't matter if you don't know how to balance, apply yourself, know where to look and be a good person---it all comes down to being a little bit of everything-I have a feeling your clarinet might have taught you this even if you don' tfeel the same way!

Everyone brings up such great points here--wish there were ways to have every person contribute to this type of conversation--but instead everywhere I look it is all about kids scores and how at 10 they should have an idea of what schools they want to go to---are you kidding me???? When my uncle told me their unborn child was going to an Ivy League school (hopefully Harvard-but would settle for Yale or Brown) I about choked---he then proceeded to tell me that because I went to a State School I wasn't very smart and my education was pretty much worthless-interesting coming from a man that doesn't have a degree and is a slum loard in a large city (not here!) and here I was thinking I might go on to get a Ph.D. what was I thinking----I only have a state school degree-and I was an athlete to boot!

People need to "chill" out and start enjoying life as it is (me included)-as far as we know this is the only we have--enjoy it-for a long time:^)

[do-lolly]

TKay and GingerPow, I'm not even going to bother with quoting you, as I fully agree with everything you said.

[cumulus]

Gingerpow: You could be my mother (and that's a big compliment ;)).

I LOVE family dinners. We had to be home no matter what to eat around the table together. And ya know what? I live on my own, and still eat dinner at a table every night, even if it is by myself. No tv, no phone, no distractions. Just a time to sit, reflect on my day and my life.

Didn't want to lead the thread astray...but that's one thing I'm very passionate about.

[SDMomChef]

You know, the sad thing is, I don't buy into all of this crap, and because I don't, my kids are suffering. I'll explain. I am raising my kids to be kids. ... I made the terrible mistake of letting my child be just that, while the other parents were trying to create Ivy Leaguers, and now this average student is almost literally flunking out. It makes me angry.

DS2 is suffering the same fate in sports. He is a natural athlete, loves baseball, and has always had the most beautiful swing, naturally, not taught by anyone. I'm not under the illusion that he will be a shoe-in for all-stars, but, he will be a pretty good player, who always has a place on the team. I don't believe in making him perfect his skills at seven years old. I have let him try soccer, baseball, gymnastics, karate, (always one sport at a time), whatever he was interested in trying. I have no interest in putting him on a year round travel ball team to burn out by the time he is 12. He moved up to the minors this year, and he's a pretty good player, but because he hasn't made it his whole life, next to the kids who do, he looks like an average player. I think the tragedy is that, this is minor league baseball. This should be a time for learning the game, and perfecting skills. How many kids, who don't have his natural talent, will drop out next year, because "I'm not very good." I think it's just sad, that something that is suppose to be fun, is not for so many.

Stepping off my angry little soap box now.:rolleyes:

I share your sentiments - but I also worry, worry, worry.

1. It is *shocking* to me at the ages you need to start them in different activities. Example - basketball starts in kindergarten here. I thought that was ridiculous, so I didn't sign up my DSs until 2nd grade. By 2nd grade the other kids already had 2 years of practice and games, and my boys didn't stand a chance - it wasn't fun for them because they didn't know what to do as quickly as the other boys and they hardly ever were able to touch the ball. The coach wasn't bad - he did try to get the ball passed around so everybody could play and he wasn't pushy/yelling. It simply was the fact that they were behind.

I had the same experience with my DD with soccer - which also starts at age 5. You can't wait for a couple of years and then put them in the sport to see if they like it because they will be behind the other kids - and when they are behind, they don't get the ball and it takes away the fun when you are on the outskirts.

Since when did it become practically mandatory to have kids try a sport at age 5 to decide whether they like it - you can't wait until 8. I didn't even bother to sign my DSs up for soft-ball - which also had leagues starting so young.

2. I strongly believe in letting kids have "free" play - meaning - play with your toys - make up games, use your imagination. My kids will take yarn and make zip-lines for their stuffed animals, or another time they made a "magic potion" by mixing chalk in water outside - and they took it from there. The problem - they hardly ever seem to use toys for their intended purposes - always looking at what else they can do with it. I absolutely love that about them and I never try to "squash" it - but to outsiders, it looks like their wild or strange kids - as commented on by my crazy neighbor.

3. Like you, I don't push my kids academically -they are only 7 and 8. We try to read every night and do spelling words every night, but I don't hammer on them that they have to get 100% or 95% - I only tell them to try their best, and leave it at that. But, perhaps I should adjust my course right now.

It does worry me - when my kids have to "try" all of the various activities by age 5 or lose out and have to deal with issues of rejection and frustration; when creative/free play is being viewed as "abnormal" behavior. I don't know what the answer is - if there is an answer.

[lindrusso]

I LOVE family dinners.

Didn't want to lead the thread astray...but that's one thing I'm very passionate about.

Me too. That was the hardest thing about this last spring for me - family dinners became much, much harder to do and some nights, impossible. Thankfully these busy seasons only last a couple of months. I will enjoy our family dinners once again.......at least until band and football start in the fall. :rolleyes: :) However, I suppose the joy I see in my kids when they do these activities helps to make up for a few lost dinners......as long as it is only for a season here or there......

It's funny, though, about the unstructured time. I asked my kids about doing YMCA camp this summer - just for a week or maybe two - but my youngest was pretty emphatic about saying no. He said he wanted time to do whatever he wanted. That kind of surprised me, but I was fine with that - I just thought he'd WANT to go to camp - he used to beg me to go. Now, however, he's also griping about maybe having to go to the YMCA when I need to work out this summer - that one I told him he'd just have to deal with. What a terrible mother - dragging her child to the YMCA 3 times a week for about an hour where he'll be forced to amuse himself by playing basketball or swimming in the pool.......:rolleyes: :D .............

[KristinK]

Like Krysia1031, the thought of having to start raising a child -- our first is due in November -- while this spirit of competitiveness is in its prime is incredibly daunting.

I was a child in the 80s and early 90s, and while I was always busy with sports and other activities and always got straight A's, it was all because that was the kind of kid I was, not because my parents forced me to do a certain activity or get a certain grade. My parents did take an active role in our lives; my dad often coached our sports teams and both parents helped us with our school work when we needed it. The difference is that it had more to do with their desire to spend quality time with us and help us achieve our potential than with any obsession for us to be the best. I think they did a fine job raising us and hope that I can use them as a guideline for raising our own children, although it is intimidating to imagine the pressure that I may feel from other parents who do have that obsession, or worse, the pressure our children will feel from the children of those parents.

Raising kids is difficult enough, so I don't know why so many parents buy into the added pressure of trying to be the best. Believe me, DH and I are very competitive -- when it comes to running and triathlons, that is. Worrying about the size of our house or the abilities of our children in comparison to others' is nowhere on our radar. Whether that changes once this baby comes, or once our friends catch up to us in terms of marrying, starting a family, and/or buying a home, well ... I just hope not.

[mrswaz]

Sherri- are we in the same community? :)

They have feeder clubs for every single HS sport here in my town except golf (and I'm sure that's on the way). Soccer begins as young as 3, but everything else is kindergarten and up. I always thought I'd love to have DS in wrestling when he's in middle and high school, but I can't stand the thought of putting him in at age 5. Two practices and one match a week... plus all the potential for injuries, yikes.

However, I suppose the joy I see in my kids when they do these activities helps to make up for a few lost dinners......as long as it is only for a season here or there......

That's the whole point isn't it. :) I truly hope that when my kids get to the age of being busy that they enjoy all of it.

[misskitty100]

DH and I frequently talk about the difference between when we were growing up and now. Like the OP, I had looong summer vacations with not a whole lot to do but read books and play with the neighbors. My parents never took a real big role in my academic progress in school either. (DH and I plan to be different on this one).

I wonder if all of this prodding and pushing kids for success comes from worry that they won't succed. I think in my parents day all they had to do was basically get a job (any job) and show up for work. Just by working, they would be able to afford cars and a house and a vacation once or twice a year. In Seattle, it is not like that at all anymore. The good jobs that pay enough to actually live on, go to those with high levels of education. In order to get a high level of education, you must graduate in the top of your class. I believe to get into the UW, an incoming freshman needs to have a 3.6 or higher....so getting a lot of B's in high school isn't going to cut it. To live in the suburbs of Seattle, I think the average house costs about $600,000 - $700,000 or a condo would go for about $350,000 on average.

Seems like life in the future could be very hard for those that don't excell in school now....

That's just my .02 cents. ;)

[hollysmom]

Now that we have all these lessons and sports - an kid with exceptional natural talent from a family of average means may never get a chance to explore that talent because all these sports have been made so expensive with fancy uniforms, travel teams, and lessons. What is with the cheerleading - that may be the most expensive of all.

I push Holly academically to get 100's because I know she is capable of it and only gets 90-99's when she gets sloppy or careless and makes a mistake.

Not all kids should go to college. I have seen several who were not ready flunk out when they should have been at community college or trade school. Who is going to fix the cars, trick the trucks, be the plumbers, repair the air conditioning (all rather high-paying jobs, BTW) if everyone goes to college? We can't export every blue-collar job to China.

SSM

[Laura]

I wonder what will happen to these kids; are they going to rebel at the age of 30 and just not want to do anything?

DS is in HS and overall I would say he is generally athletically gifted. Not an all-star, but picks up most sports easily and has good coordination. He has excelled in swimming, but wanted to play soccer in HS this fall. Unfortunately, when he was competing against kids who had played soccer since they were 6 and most of them year-round, he couldn't compete (because he hadn't played since he was six). His foot skills just didn't compare. Now swimming is a no-cut sport so kids who don't swim on a regular basis can still make the team. There is a good chance DS could get a scholarship to swim, but he really can't afford to take time off to do other sports if he wants to pursue that. It is frustrating.

DD just graduated from HS and the kids that were in the top of her class were amazing. It was not enough to have perfect or near-perfect ACT/SAT scores. These kids were taking 6 AP courses their senior year, lettering in at least one sport, on the leadership for at least one activity and volunteering. When do they get to be kids? Granted most of these kids are self-motivated, but I also believe they are looking at schools like Harvard and Columbia that almost seem to brag about turning down kids with perfect test scores and the kids think they have to discover the cure to cancer just to compete.

[testkitchen45]

Wow. What you all said! :D What a great thread.

I'm another one who refuses to schedule every second of my kids' lives. The result is that they can actually amuse themselves w/o a screen of some sort. ;)

It's so true that these kids start way too young with the sports and scheduled time; there's no time to just play. Did we ever hear the phrase "schedule a playdate" when we were young?? :confused: No; you just ran down the street & knocked on a door. But I've stuck to my guns, and my kids are better off for it--sure enough, you do find like-minded parents whose kids are actually available, spontaneously, to jump in the pool or go build a fort in the backyard; you just have to keep looking until you meet families who don't program every second of every day. And we've taught our kids the idiocy of conspicuous consumerism (hope the lessons stick as they grow older! :p ); just the other day, my DS was looking at my very basic handbag and commenting on a girl at school who has a Coach bag and a $400 cellphone. It does get crazy--I think a lot of parents are scared to death that if they don't help their kids try *everything* by age 7, or have it *all* by middle school, their kids will really miss out.

[cumulus]

Another hijack attempt c/o a column (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/30/dining/30kids.html?_r=1&ref=dining&oref=slogin) in this week's NY Times.

A quote about "children's menus" in restaurants:

We accept that it’s bad not to read to young children lest it affect their “wiring,” and that it’s bad to let them slack off on exercise lest their muscles not develop, but we’re kind of lazy on the palate front. And really, discovering new foods and flavors is one of the most delightful experiences that childhood can offer.

So, parents push their kids to do all kinds of activities...but forget some of the most fundamental skills (proper nutrition, family time) that they really should be focusing on.

[GingerPow]

Gingerpow: You could be my mother (and that's a big compliment ;)).
Well, then - thank you very much! :D

Another hijack attempt c/o a column (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/30/dining/30kids.html?_r=1&ref=dining&oref=slogin) in this week's NY Times.

A quote about "children's menus" in restaurants:

We accept that it’s bad not to read to young children lest it affect their “wiring,” and that it’s bad to let them slack off on exercise lest their muscles not develop, but we’re kind of lazy on the palate front. And really, discovering new foods and flavors is one of the most delightful experiences that childhood can offer.

So, parents push their kids to do all kinds of activities...but forget some of the most fundamental skills (proper nutrition, family time) that they really should be focusing on.
Great article - and I totally agree with the author's viewpoint regarding the food on children's menus being mostly breaded and fried items, namely chicken fingers and french fries. My youngest DD still loves chicken fingers, she's eaten plenty of those over the years. If someone is creative they can feed their child a great dinner in a restaurant that is not off of the children's menu, chicken noodle soup and a salad for instance.

From the article - isn't this little guy cute as a button? :o
http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w127/PerfectLinus/Cutelittleboy.jpg

[MrsReber]

DH and I packed everything up and left the high stress, my kid is better than yours, my house is bigger and I make more money than you world. 7 months now and no looking back. Our kids play with the kids 2 houses down- no scheduled playdates. DS is in karate because he likes it. DD tried it and didn't like it. She likes riding horses so she does that. Both kids know that if they don't want to do something or if they want to try something new, I'm behind them 100%. We go camping, DH plays ball in the yard with the kids when he gets home from school. I'm working from home and DS (4) is at home with me. He hardly watches tv at all- he plays with his legos, dinosaurs, cars, planes- any toys he has and he leaves me alone when I need to get on conference calls.

I was feeling out of place in NJ. Every time we went on a playdate, it was to a mini mansion. I couldn't ever feel comfortable inviting the kids from daycare to our house because it was a modest 3 bedroom ranch in a blue collar neighborhood. We never attempted to keep up with the Joneses. We could've had a bigger, more expensive house, but we like to have money in the bank and not live paycheck to paycheck. We like not having debt so bad that you can't get out from under it. And we like to do things and have fun as a family.

When we moved, everyone said "the schools aren't as good there" - as if they knew?? The schools here is wonderful. The teachers encourage the kids to hug their friends and talk about whatever they want- God, Santa- they had 400 Vietnam vets on motorcycles visit them for lunch last week on their annual Run for the Wall. There's no fear of being sued by some parent whose upset over the Pledge of Allegience. Sorry for the rant- I think they take being PC a little too far these days and I'm glad to be somewhere where people don't live in fear of retribution for having a belief in something or not believing in anything. The kids from different grades interact with each other daily.

We could afford so much more, but we just don't want to live in that world with the giant houses, giant cars, giant mortgages, and every moment scheduled. One of DD's friends could never get together for a playdate because she had cheerleading practice and competitions every weekend. She was THREE! Weird.

[GingerPow]

DH and I packed everything up and left the high stress, my kid is better than yours, my house is bigger and I make more money than you world. 7 months now and no looking back.
Wise move, MrsReber. We have new next-door neighbors who moved from a town outside of Manhattan. Upon meeting our across-the-street neighbor, they told her that the living room in their new house will be so much bigger than hers. Way to make new friends.:rolleyes: I just smile and wave at them, they're too much work for me.

I have to admit though, a laugh just popped out of me at your last line. Cheer-leading competitions and practice every weekend at three years old? :D

Your life sounds so nice and healthy, and dare I say it..."normal." That competitiveness to raise uber children does not.

[Autumn]

I have been reading this thread with great interest. It is a constant struggle for me to balance my children's need to "just be kids" and my desire to expose them to new opportunities and experiences through different sports and lessons. I live in suburbia where competitive parents and overscheduled kids are the norm.

My book club is reading "The Price of Privilege--How Parental Pressure and Material Advantage Are Creating a Generation of Disconnected and Unhappy Kids," by Madeline Levine, Ph.D. I'm not done reading it yet, but so far so good--it addresses many of the issues in this thread.

[do-lolly]

My book club is reading "The Price of Privilege--How Parental Pressure and Material Advantage Are Creating a Generation of Disconnected and Unhappy Kids," by Madeline Levine, Ph.D. I not done reading it yet, but so far so good--it addresses many of the issues in this thread.


Well, it looks like I will be going to the bookstore today. I have a lot of good recs from this thread. It will be interesting to see what your book club says after reading. Will you post and let us know?

[HRJ]

If you're looking for books on the subject, I'd also recommend taking a glance at Judith Warner's "Perfect Maddness," which is about the insane levels that uber-motherhood has reached these days. I have the book, and have to admit that I haven't read all of it, but have dipped into different sections here and there, and it's interesting.

I have to agree with what most of the previous posters have said -- and in a way, I feel a little relieved to know that the super-competitive style of parenting seems to be happening all over. I'm sort of an out-of-sync parent -- I'm a Baby Boomer, yet I have a young child. Sometimes, it's easy for me to just roll my eyes and dismiss a lot of the "hyper-parenting" stuff that I see -- I just tell myself that I'm "older and wiser" ;) and don't have the time or energy for that. But other times, I'll admit, I find myself being drawn right into the vortex. Fortunately, my DS, who is a particularly strong-willed child who knows his own mind quite well, helps keep me reasonably grounded.

Why has this happened? Everyone here has touched on some good points. I also blame the way our society (with ample help from the media) has created the so-called "Mommy Wars." Many working moms feel they have to compensate for time away from their kids by providing ultra-quality experiences; many SAHMs, meanwhile, feel they have to maximize their time at home, with the same ultra-quality experiences.

Also, I think our society's over-the-top obsession with sports and sports stars is also to blame. I understand that physical fitness, activity and athletics are all good things, and are great things for kids to be involved with. I very much regret that when I grew up, in the pre-Title 9 era, girls were hardly encouraged, and often discouraged, from participating in sports or physical activity.

But I think the emphasis today on sports superstars--and almost impossibly high levels of physical achievement (even it it takes chemical enhancement to reach those levels), has given us this obsession with expecting children to become pint-size professional athletes. All these stories of how kids are expected to start "specializing" at age 5 or 6, to "build skills."

This year, at 5, is the first year that my DS was eligible for T-ball through Little League. It would have meant practices/games every Saturday afternoon, and every other Sunday afternoon. I just think that's way too much of a commitment, time-wise, for a 5-year-old for any one activity, and really cuts into weekend family time. But, I did ask my DS if he wanted to try it, because I knew he had some friends who were going to play and I wanted to offer him the opportunity. I was glad when he said he wasn't interested.

My friend's son, also 5, did decide to play. This kid is a really good athlete -- but his mom tells me that he is "behind" most of the other kids (again, this is the first year that any of these kids could even possibly join Little League) -- because most of them have already done two years of "preschool T-ball" through the town Rec. Dept. when they were 3 and 4. So at 5, this kid is already behind the 8-ball. :rolleyes: Insane.

On the other hand, some of this stuff is just a reflection that times have changed since the Boomers, or Gen-Xers, were young. My DS spends a lot of time playing with the neighborhood kids, all ages mixed together, just like I did when I was young. But, he also has scheduled playdates, because he goes to day-care all week, and he has friends there who live all over town, and in adjacent towns, too, and who all have working parents, who in turn are all trying to juggle a lot of stuff during their scant free time. (And I don't mean they're just trying to juggle kids' activities -- there's also the stuff like grocery shopping, dentist appointments, visiting family, etc.) So we can't just stop by someone's house to see if they're around and have time to play. He will spend most of the summer at day-camp, not because I have a desire to fill his day with scheduled activities, but because my DH and I both work, and, first priority, we need some form of child-care. When I was young, almost nobody's mother worked, or, if she did, there was a grandmother or other relative at home who took care of the kids during the day. But that world doesn't exist anymore.

Interesting thread.

Helene

[ChristineVA]

I've also been reading this thread with interest (and I even posted earlier)!:)

Now, I am pondering my own kids and hope you all can comment.

I have always been a laid back mom when it comes to "joining" and sports and stuff. I hardly did anything as a kid (save for a short stint on a tennis team) and so being super involved in stuff is foreign to me.

When my first child was old enough, I exposed her to soccer because "everyone was doing it" and I was starting to feel behind. She never really wanted to do it, so I didn't really "push" until she was about 8 years old. By that time, many of the girls were well advanced in soccer and she felt awful. My DD is not bad with natural athleticism but being behind really shot down her self-esteem. She did stick with it for 3 season, but eventually lost interest.

She then did drama (her own request) for many years and loved it. But again, by age 14 she was burned out on it. Now she is in high school and doesn't do ANYTHING and has no desire too. She half thought of joining some type of sports team but found out that the kids are so far advanced that she has/had no chance. It's very discouraging. Whatever you might think, it gets scary when they get ready to apply for college and there is NOTHING to put on their resume. It is so competitive.

My son is similar. He has been doing Tae Kwon Do for many years. He is already burning out on it (he is 12) but we make him do it because he really needs the activity. It is very low pressure for him so he doesn't mind it, but he doesn't love it either and I think that component is important.

The real issue is that I have been laid back and let my kids to their own schedules and, well, I don't feel that that approach has really worked out for them either.

On top of it all, my husband is QUITE perturbed that my daughter, who is almost 16, is not "in" something. I try to explain to him that, first, the interest for her is not there. I am not into NAGGING someone to do something, and two, there just isn't much for a 16 year old to walk into with no prior "training.":( He can't understand it as he was big into high school football, is a big cycling enthusiast, and all over jock. Bad for him that BOTH his kids took after me.:rolleyes:

Based on all the overachieving kids out there, I feel like my kids are doomed.

[SDMomChef]

My friend's son, also 5, did decide to play. This kid is a really good athlete -- but his mom tells me that he is "behind" most of the other kids (again, this is the first year that any of these kids could even possibly join Little League) -- because most of them have already done two years of "preschool T-ball" through the town Rec. Dept. when they were 3 and 4. So at 5, this kid is already behind the 8-ball. :rolleyes: Insane.







When my first child was old enough, I exposed her to soccer because "everyone was doing it" and I was starting to feel behind. She never really wanted to do it, so I didn't really "push" until she was about 8 years old. By that time, many of the girls were well advanced in soccer and she felt awful. My DD is not bad with natural athleticism but being behind really shot down her self-esteem. She did stick with it for 3 season, but eventually lost interest.



This is the issue that makes me so mad - I don't WANT to be forced to put my kids into activities at the age of 5 - even just to see if they like it because they are too little to have to make that decision and it does take up quite a bit of time. But, if you wait - then you have to address the issues of your child being behind and the self-esteem issues.

I purposely did not put my DS in softball for that reason - he's 8, he's not the best athlete in the world, and he has zero chance of even feeling like he's part of a team since the majority of the other kids have likely done it since they were 5.

So....part of it is just frustration that these associations, for whatever reason, pushed back the starting age to 5. Part of it also seems to be that there is no "safety net" for kids that just want to try things out at a later stage without having their self esteem shattered.

I also have not geared my DSs to be "sports-oriented" - I let their interests take them where they might go, and they have never really been interested in balls or sports. When we take them to professional games, their biggest interest is when can they get food, and what can they get. They much prefer to do art projects or science projects than anything sports oriented. It didn't really worry me much until I read the book Nineteen, and now I'm freaked out.

[sneezles]

I also have not geared my DSs to be "sports-oriented" - I let their interests take them where they might go, and they have never really been interested in balls or sports.

I didn't gear my sons to be "sports-oriented" either but they were! DS#2 was about 3 when we were at the park one day and some teenagers were playing basketball he stood on the court and watched them for ages. I tried to steer him back to the swings but he wouldn't have it. He then walked up and asked one of the boys to teach him and the boy did! He was dribbling down the court within 15 minutes. Of the 3 sons he is the most gifted athletically but it's not a burning desire in him nor did it rule his life.

Having lived in a neighborhood that was lacking in children (it was an old neighborhood and was just beginning to get young families) signing my kids up for activities was the only way to get them social interaction with peers.

Studies have shown that children don't retain most of what they learn in group sports until they are 8. I experienced it as a coach and as a parent. Not signing your kids up because you feel he's already behind isn't fair to your kid either, IMHO.

[donleyk]

. Whatever you might think, it gets scary when they get ready to apply for college and there is NOTHING to put on their resume. It is so competitive.


Based on all the overachieving kids out there, I feel like my kids are doomed.

I think if you have your kids or go as a family to volunteering functions (like the Food Bank or the JR. Special Olympics as quick examples) they'll have things for their college resumes.

[SDMomChef]

I didn't gear my sons to be "sports-oriented" either but they were! DS#2 was about 3 when we were at the park one day and some teenagers were playing basketball he stood on the court and watched them for ages. I tried to steer him back to the swings but he wouldn't have it. He then walked up and asked one of the boys to teach him and the boy did! He was dribbling down the court within 15 minutes. Of the 3 sons he is the most gifted athletically but it's not a burning desire in him nor did it rule his life.



I didn't phrase that right - when my DSs were little - we did get them those little basket-ball hoops from Little Tykes and miniature golf sets, etc. We just didn't go out of our way to take them to professional sport events or have them watch professional sports games on T.V.s (even though my DH rarely has any channel other than ESPN or the Golf channel). But, the sports like toys that we did get for them - just sat in the corner collecting dust - it just didn't interest them. Now, my DD on the other hand, she can't see a ball without dribbling it or throwing it or kicking it - so I understand exactly what you are saying. I just wasn't very articulate!

[boisewinesnob]

I'm not sure if I buy the argument that the kids will be behind if they aren't started in a sport by the time they are 5 (or younger!). When one of my sons was younger there was a kid who was on his baseball team who had never played before----and he ended up being the best hitter, with at least a couple out-of-the-park homeruns!! He was probably 10 or 11. Although he didn't know some fundamentals about fielding/defensive playing, he was willing to learn and did OK.

2 of my sons are very athletic and nobody ever pushed them. Like lindrusso said about her son, they had their own passions. One of my sons was sort of a super-achiever both academically and athletically. The other struggles a bit academically but has other interests besides sports (music, church, etc). My youngest ran cross country but other than that he is not competitive and hasn't shown much interest in sports. He worries me a bit because he doesn't show much interest in anything besides videogames :rolleyes: . I don't feel like that's a healthy "activity" and would like to see him get out and do something!

[hlao23]

I've also been reading this thread with interest (and I even posted earlier)!:)

Now, I am pondering my own kids and hope you all can comment.

On top of it all, my husband is QUITE perturbed that my daughter, who is almost 16, is not "in" something. I try to explain to him that, first, the interest for her is not there. I am not into NAGGING someone to do something, and two, there just isn't much for a 16 year old to walk into with no prior "training.":( He can't understand it as he was big into high school football, is a big cycling enthusiast, and all over jock. Bad for him that BOTH his kids took after me.:rolleyes:

Based on all the overachieving kids out there, I feel like my kids are doomed.

I think I was a little like your daughter. Starting around kindergarten I was in piano lessons, brownies (or scouts), tap, ballet, jazz, gymnastics and voice lessons....yes, all at once. Dropped out of 2 dance classes in 5th grade. Quit scouts in 6th. Dropped everything else by 8th grade. For me....it was a phase. By 11th grade I had gotten myself involved again in multiple clubs at school - nice for my parents...no paying for lessons and I could drive myself ;) . Your daughter may just need a break for whatever reason.

Regarding the general discussion:
I never felt overscheduled or pressured. The one thing I wish is that my parents had made me practice piano. I NEVER was made to practice and am sadly underskilled for someone with 8 years of lessons under her belt....not to mention that practicing is a good discipline to develop...

[HRJ]

I'm not saying that if I kid doesn't start in a sport by 5, s/he is absolutely doomed. But I just think there is a whole set of expectations that has been put into place that does shift the "seriousness" of sports onto kids at a much younger age. And it's not just sports -- I have heard stories from other moms about similar situations with dance classes and music lessons. (I have heard -- although I can't confirm for sure if it's true) that there is a violin teacher in my area who won't take beginning students who are older than 4! :eek:

And I'm wondering how much this "downward" shift has taken place over the past 10 years or so -- meaning, those of you with kids high school age and older, the situation you remember from your kids' preschool and early elementary days may be different now.

But, in my own case, even though I hear this stuff about a 5-year-old being "behind" at T-ball -- well, that's not going to make me run out and sign my kid up, if he isn't particularly interested in the activity, and especially if it's something that is going to infringe on a great deal of our weekend time. I have no illusions that pushing him to play now will either make him a future MLB player, or will be his ticket to college. But it does concern me, about what our experience will be, say, next year, if my DS decides he wants to play then. Or if he wants to wait until he is 7 or 8.

Helene

[ChristineVA]

So....part of it is just frustration that these associations, for whatever reason, pushed back the starting age to 5. Part of it also seems to be that there is no "safety net" for kids that just want to try things out at a later stage without having their self esteem shattered.

I agree. My son did express and interest, at around age 10, to try playing basketball but we could find no "beginner" teams or instruction at that point and he was WAY to intimidated to go into an already established team.

I also have not geared my DSs to be "sports-oriented" - I let their interests take them where they might go, and they have never really been interested in balls or sports. When we take them to professional games, their biggest interest is when can they get food, and what can they get. They much prefer to do art projects or science projects than anything sports oriented. It didn't really worry me much until I read the book Nineteen, and now I'm freaked out.

Same here. My son is MUCH more interested in taking a drawing class or something like that--having a bit of a problem find such a thing over the summer since I work full-time (another matter), but he doesn't overly care for organized sports but wouldn't mind playing for occasional recreation. Apparently, the world doesn't work that way though!:p

[ChristineVA]

I'm not sure if I buy the argument that the kids will be behind if they aren't started in a sport by the time they are 5 (or younger!). When one of my sons was younger there was a kid who was on his baseball team who had never played before----and he ended up being the best hitter, with at least a couple out-of-the-park homeruns!! He was probably 10 or 11. Although he didn't know some fundamentals about fielding/defensive playing, he was willing to learn and did OK.



I agree that this certainly does happen but probably no so much for kids who have just average athletic ability. I think when you are just fair to midland in the athletic range, it can be quite intimidating to walk onto a team where people have been playing the sport for years.

If you are the person who has wonderful natural athletic talent and you are driven then, by all means, you WILL get past that little stumbling block.

[KAG]

Boy this thread is right up my alley. I have been "preaching" about this topic since my kids were little. Please pardon my soapbox...

I read to my children and taught them to read before starting school to instill a love of books and literature, not to be the "best" reader in class.

Our house always had a supply of paints, markers, scissors, glue, glitter and paper so they would enjoy creating, not to be the "best" artist.

Their summers were mostly their own; limited schedules, limited t.v., a small list of chores, one camp activity if they really wanted to and it was fine if they didn't. They had to spend time outside (I had my eye on them) & we'd go to the beach.

Children need to learn how to fill their own time using their own imaginations rather than go through life regimented and scheduled. Free play-time teaches them to enjoy their own company, and deal with their fellow human beings when they are with other kids. Establishing peer relationships without being overseen and orchestrated by teachers, coaches, etc. enables them to work out differences, enjoy friendships, learn cooperation. (Remember back in the day - go outside and play & don't come back until your belly tells you it's lunch time?)

Music lessons, sports, after-school activities, all have their place and Lord knows we did plenty of that. When it became a distraction and intrusion from family time, I cut down the schedule to two activities each (times 3 kids, that's enough).

Our family dinners were more important to me, and I think in the long run, more beneficial to the children and the family in general than any outside activity would prove to be.

My oldest DD just graduated Magna Cum Laude from college, my youngest DD is consistently on the honor roll, and involved in plenty, and my DS has a very strong work ethic - he'd rather go to his afterschool job than any school activity. I'm not bragging (well, maybe just a little ;) ), but I believe that they are very self-motivated because they were allowed some breathing room. They are accepted for who they innately are instead of who I or their dad thought they should become, and most importantly (to me), they were allowed to be children.

(GingerPow stepping down now). ;)


Boy, I could have written this myself. I feel exactly as you and my children did well in school too. They played baseball, softball and they were in the Girl and Boy scouts. They took piano lessons, guitar lessons and were very active in church. None of it at the same time (except church). This was stretched out over their entire childhood and ball was only for a very short while every year with whole summers free to just be.

They grew up with paints, books, legos, playdough, puzzles, a swing set, mud pies and hide and seek. The oldest was born in 1982 and the youngest 1985 so they were right in that "gotta do it all" generation of parents. I always felt as if we were swimming up stream but I didn't care. We all ate supper together every night, they had chores, they never had tv's in their rooms nor did they have phones in their rooms either. They didn't have a cell phone until they got their license and didn't get a car until after college.

Someone earlier asked if one had ever tried to clean a house with a baby. Uh, yes, times 3. I never felt the need to hire it out. It actually never occured to me.

I never got into competitive birthday parties either. we had old fashioned birthday parties at home or the local park, we did cookouts for parties too and all the kids always seemed to have a great time.

That's the way we wanted to raise our kids. They turned out fine and they are productive members of society. I didn't allow myself to get caught up in the whirlwind of raising kids as a one upmanship or in fear of them not being able to keep up with their peers. Heck, I wouldn't even send them to kindergarten until they had to start 5 year old kindergarten at the public school and guess what. They weren't behind. They learned a lot at home with me and their Dad interacting with them, they were never drilled before they started school.

I think everyone is entitled to raise their kids with whatever activities they think are appropriate. Everyone's children are different, Every family is different. We happen to be type B personalites around my house but I know plenty of friends and family members that are exactly the opposite and have to be on the go or doing something all the time. It's what makes them happy. There are just as many kids that love being busy all the time. I say do what feels right for your family, as for mine we chose to not engage in the hurried lifestyle. It worked for us.

[ClaraB]

I agree that this certainly does happen but probably no so much for kids who have just average athletic ability. I think when you are just fair to midland in the athletic range, it can be quite intimidating to walk onto a team where people have been playing the sport for years.

If you are the person who has wonderful natural athletic talent and you are driven then, by all means, you WILL get past that little stumbling block.My 9 yo DS has only fair athletic ability, but he's doing OK in his first year of Little League, even though most of the other kids on his team have played before. He's not the best kid on the team, but that's not really the point, is it?

[do-lolly]

They much prefer to do art projects or science projects than anything sports oriented. It didn't really worry me much until I read the book Nineteen, and now I'm freaked out.

I do think it's important to be a part of something. I was a child that tried things and then quit, and as an adult I look back and think that I wish that I had been pushed a little bit to stick with something. I think if your kids are into art and science, lead them in that direction. My dsil has a little girl that she keeps enrolling in dance and cheerleading, and she just doesn't care for it much. She does have a beautiful voice and I keep hoping that she will give up the typical girly stuff and encourage her in something that she has a true gift in. I think they would both be happy in the end.



Studies have shown that children don't retain most of what they learn in group sports until they are 8. I experienced it as a coach and as a parent. Not signing your kids up because you feel he's already behind isn't fair to your kid either, IMHO.

I think the problem lies with the coaches, and not necessarily the kids. For the most part, kids seem to be supportive of peers who are just learning. The coaches are the ones that are more concerned about winning and putting the best kids in the best positions. I think once you reach a certain age, you should play your best players, but little league should be reserved for learning the game. Last year, DS was in coach pitch. The coach was a nice guy, but he never rotated his infield to let some other kids learn the position. DS spent the entire season playing plugger and outfield, while the coaches sons remained permanently at 1st, 2nd, & 3rd. Coach pitch should be a time when the kids are learning fundamentals. The kids stuck in outfield, (while it is a very important position in the older leagues) end up getting bored to death, and lose interest in a game that could be fun for them if they were given a chance to play. This didn't happen with my son, he loves the game no matter where he is playing, but a lot of kids did not have fun.

As far as them being behind if they don't start early, it does happen, I've seen it happen. If you have a child who is naturaly athletic it's not as big of a problem. However, if your child is just an average child, they can just about forget playing in the older leagues. Again, because the coaches don't give them a chance. My DH is a coach this year with the kid pitch teams and he is really trying to give all of the kids equal playing time and opportunities. Sadly, he is in the minority. At this level, it's more about winning in most coaches, and parents minds. It's a shame because I remember when I was a pre-teen/teen, there were lots of boys who decided to play sports for the first time in jr. high. They were able to play and have fun.

[do-lolly]

They much prefer to do art projects or science projects than anything sports oriented. It didn't really worry me much until I read the book Nineteen, and now I'm freaked out.


I also meant to say that DS1 was not, and is not into sports. It was evident at a very early age that sports would not be his thing. He does like the arts though. He loves plays, movies and music, so we have tried to give him opportunities in those areas. As I mentioned earlier, he is not a great student and he need something to feel good about. He plays an instrument now and is really happy to have something that he is good at.

[RunnerKim]

I've been enjoying this discussion and thought I'd share a little different experience.

My 9 year old nephew is playing baseball for the first time this spring. He is not athletically inclined (he actually has a mild joint issue that contributes. His 7 year old younger brother runs faster than him etc.). Anyway, he's playing little league AA and having a good time. He's playing with kids that have played before and younger kids. There's K-4th grade on his team - which seems crazy but maybe that's what makes it possible for someone with little experience and not a lot of skill to be able to play. Many of the 3rd and 4th graders have gone on to the next level (AAA) but this was a better fit for him. Everyone still gets to play. The team isn't doing all that great - not sure they've even won a game - but that doesn't seem to matter so much to the kids. (I think I got those levels right).

I think there is something to this shift in there being more preschool opportunities. I was thinking the other day that I seriously doubt I was taking swimming lessons when I was 3 like my DD did (and continues to take).

Despite my nephews baseball experience, I think generally there's a real gap in recreational sporting activities. What options are there for kids that aren't so athletically inclined or driven once they reach middle school?

I have one of those naturally sports-interested kids. My 4 year old DD is playing "organized" soccer. DH is coaching. It's very low key and 1 hour a week. She's obsessed with baseball - she'll just stand and watch and watch if she happens to see people playing at the park. So we bought gloves, balls and a bat and play around in the backyard and even head off to a diamond every once in awhile. She'll be signed up for T-ball next spring. We do it not so that she'll be the "best" athlete but to foster her love of playing and being active. Same as is mentioned for reading (which we also support).

I also think that for a kid that wants to start doing a sport later than her peers that there's some preperation the child/family could do. A kid wouldn't have to walk completely green on to a team. Everything from reading about the rules, watching play and messing around in the backyard/park.

Kim

[ClaraB]

Despite my nephews baseball experience, I think generally there's a real gap in recreational sporting activities. What options are there for kids that aren't so athletically inclined or driven once they reach middle school?

The middle school DS is going to has a "no-cut" policy for 7th and 8th graders - any child who wants to play can, regardless of skill or experience. They set up "leagues" of different ability levels, so you don't have an inexperienced kid playing against someone who's done the sport for 8 years. DS tried 2 sports he'd never played before - football and basketball (although football only lasted 1 week :o ). By the time 9th grade comes, the kids have to try out for high school teams, but I'm OK with that - at least they have a couple of years to learn new sports without a lot of pressure :) ). I've really seen very little of the "rabid" player/parent/coach phenomenon here in ND, although it does exist.

[Canice]

Wow, this thread has taken quite a turn since I last visited it on Thursday afternoon! I don't have any experiences with or opinions on youth sports (I'm childless, and my parents HATED sports) but my mind goes back to the original question, the first posting on this thread: "What happened to us??".
Since this is a public forum, I'll go ahead and post my thoughts on "what happened" even if the conversation has veered off in another direction

....
I do think a lot of this current culture started in the 80s. That's when the toy & media industries started pushing "developmental" things -- the baby flashcards, the classical music tapes for toddlers, etc. That's also the same era of yuppies & rampant name-brand consumerism. Having an actual Izod shirt (later a Polo shirt) or Members Only jacket, etc. became the be-all and end-all. Winning, at all costs, became a mantra....

We all know that nothing develops in a vacuum (well, you'd find a few nasties in my vacuum, but you know what I mean) and these comments strike at a few of my recollections as a certified teenager in the 1980s - you know, the decade that first gave us the bumper sticker "He who dies with the most toys wins", then the popular poster of the dandy in front of his Rolls Royce, Champagne in hand, with "Poverty Sucks" written below? Yea, that decade. It's the one that produced the (sadly, now coming back into fashion) "Baby on Board" signs hanging from the rear windshield of cars. The work of baby boomers, who had held off longer than at any time in history to start families. And they were sooooo impressed with what they had done! They had made a...a...a...a baby! And they were VERY self-absorbed, and VERY busy. They also had cash (I think the era of the "struggling young couple with small children" had mostly died by then) so they bought STUFF for their kids. LOADS of stuff. Stuff to fill the kids' time while mom and dad were out making sure those kids had the best of everything. And housing costs were going up, so that meant more couples needed two incomes to make ends meet (and of course women were finding options in career/family life) which meant less time with the kids, which meant more STUFF to make the kids happy, and more WORDS to tell the kid how stupendously fantastic, exceptional, and WORTHY he was. And because they were so amazed by the fact they had produced this actual child, and because they were so BUSY, they supplemented the STUFF with nonstop encouragement to their pal (no longer a child, but a good buddy) about how FANTASTIC and incapable of failure he was; how extraordinary, and how entitled he was -- to being the brightest, smartest, cleverest, most accomplished person EVER. Why, this amazing child had survived the rigors and emotional and intellectual challenges of KINDERGARTEN – give him a cap and gown and full graduation ceremonies, that little miracle kid!

So I'm thinking maybe it's those "kids"--now parents-- we're talking about here?
Just my view......

[mrswaz]

Canice, I think your post is right on the mark.

I'm reminded of the movie The Incredibles


BOB:
It's not a graduation. He's moving from the fourth grade to
the fifth grade.

HELEN:
It's a ceremony!

BOB:
It's psychotic! They keep creating new ways to celebrate
mediocrity but if someone is genuinely exceptional...

[lindrusso]

BOB:
It's psychotic! They keep creating new ways to celebrate
mediocrity but if someone is genuinely exceptional...

Sadly, so very true......

I think your outlook is very perceptive, Canice........

Eventually there will be a backlash movement and then we'll have something else to discuss/complain about. ;) :)

[honeygirl1971]

I graduated high school in 1989, and so I too was a teen in the 80s and remember all that (sick) stuff Canice mentioned, but when I was a little kid, in the 70s, things were still relatively low-key. I actually wish my parents had been a bit more proactive in searching out activities for us! We had a pool so we swam every day all summer, but other than that and Girl Scout camp, we really didn't do much. I played two instruments with the school band but my parents didn't encourage sports and I wish they had. I am more naturally drawn to reading, art, etc., but I think it would have been good to be more exposed to athletic activities. I think that there's a happy medium possible between pushing too many activities and not encouraging enough...

I am now the parent of a baby, and looking at the parents around me here in France, I would say that although there are some of those crazed parents here too like do-lolly describes, things here seem, in general, fairly well-balanced. There are lots of things for kids to do, but the sports are not NEARLY as competitive as in the US, and it's not really a culture of "praise" either like Canice describes in her post. Of course I still think that our baby is the Best Baby Ever ;) , but only in the emotional sense, and I feel very strongly about letting him choose the things that interest him (rather than forcing him to take part in activities he really doesn't care for).

[LakeMartinGal]

I've been reading this thread with interest... what a lot of these parents don't seem to realize is that, academically, not EVERYONE can be at the top of the class! Statistically, that can only happen to one person!:rolleyes:

We wanted our DDs to do the best they could, and be in activities they enjoy... (they are ~30). DH actually didn't WANT DD to get a 4.0 in college, because it meant she was too focused on studies, and not learning the other, important parts of being independent and growing up! (Not that he disowned either one when they got their 4.0's;) )

Yes, children have to be taught to finish what they start, even if they don't like it. They have to find things they are interested in doing, even if it isn't a sport -- by high school, they should be finding things they are interested in making a career! At least, developing interests in things to be an avocation! Whether it's debate club or creating decorations for the dances or sets for the play, each child should be encouraged to do activites that interest them, not what everyone else's kids are doing!

We know as adults that we have more energy for things we like to do -- why don't we give the children permission to have the same leanings? To try new things, but don't force them to re-up if it's not for them?

I was/am certainly not a perfect parent, and my children, though wonderful, are not perfect either, but they are doing what they enjoy, and they're good at it!;)

[sneezles]

We all know that nothing develops in a vacuum (well, you'd find a few nasties in my vacuum, but you know what I mean) and these comments strike at a few of my recollections as a certified teenager in the 1980s - you know, the decade that first gave us the bumper sticker "He who dies with the most toys wins", then the popular poster of the dandy in front of his Rolls Royce, Champagne in hand, with "Poverty Sucks" written below? Yea, that decade. It's the one that produced the (sadly, now coming back into fashion) "Baby on Board" signs hanging from the rear windshield of cars. The work of baby boomers, who had held off longer than at any time in history to start families. And they were sooooo impressed with what they had done! They had made a...a...a...a baby! And they were VERY self-absorbed, and VERY busy. They also had cash (I think the era of the "struggling young couple with small children" had mostly died by then) so they bought STUFF for their kids. LOADS of stuff. Stuff to fill the kids' time while mom and dad were out making sure those kids had the best of everything. And housing costs were going up, so that meant more couples needed two incomes to make ends meet (and of course women were finding options in career/family life) which meant less time with the kids, which meant more STUFF to make the kids happy, and more WORDS to tell the kid how stupendously fantastic, exceptional, and WORTHY he was. And because they were so amazed by the fact they had produced this actual child, and because they were so BUSY, they supplemented the STUFF with nonstop encouragement to their pal (no longer a child, but a good buddy) about how FANTASTIC and incapable of failure he was; how extraordinary, and how entitled he was -- to being the brightest, smartest, cleverest, most accomplished person EVER. Why, this amazing child had survived the rigors and emotional and intellectual challenges of KINDERGARTEN – give him a cap and gown and full graduation ceremonies, that little miracle kid!

So I'm thinking maybe it's those "kids"--now parents-- we're talking about here?
Just my view......

Well, I'm a baby boomer who didn't have her first child until she was 28, didn't get married until I was 26. I find a lot of what you posted rather insulting.

Yes, I found the fact that we had a child amazing and every thing that child did was amazing...his first smile, his rolling over, sitting up, first words and on and on and on...and I relived those things with the next 2 children. It's a small world when it's just you and your baby. Getting into school ages things changed...

We lived well within out means, carried only the mortgage as debt though we could have paid it off, and for the most part had a single income (though I did work part-time at the school once all 3 were in school).

Baby on Board signs make me smile and also warn me that the person driving may be a bit distracted by the little person occupying the baby seat in the rear, hard to reach seat. Certainly have never taken it to mean "Hey look at me! I can reproduce!"

[GingerPow]

Why, this amazing child had survived the rigors and emotional and intellectual challenges of KINDERGARTEN – give him a cap and gown and full graduation ceremonies, that little miracle kid!
Great points made Canice! I had to chuckle at this observation - it's so true. I've been scratching my head at all of the "graduations" that my kids have had since they were little. The preschool "Graduation" was cute, we all got a kick out of that. I assumed that they wouldn't have another one until they graduated from High School. Wrong.
My friends and I have laughed over the years at the 8th grade "graduations." I remember when I was finished with 8th grade in 1969..."here's your report card, have a nice summer, good luck in high school, good-bye.":D

[honeygirl1971]

Yes, I found the fact that we had a child amazing and every thing that child did was amazing...his first smile, his rolling over, sitting up, first words and on and on and on...and I relived those things with the next 2 children. It's a small world when it's just you and your baby. Getting into school ages things changed...



I sort of meant to address that when I said that I think we have the Best Baby Ever ;). I think that it is totally NORMAL to find your own child/children amazing (at every age!) and to be thrilled with the smallest things they do, but when you start seeking public recognition for those things, it's a bit different. Like I think it's AWESOME when our baby responds to "Where is the zebra?" by crawling over to the zebra and picking it up, and I even told grandma and grandpa about it the first time he did it (and they were suitablly impressed :D ) but I don't expect anyone to give him a medal for it or anything! KWIM?

[sneezles]

I sort of meant to address that when I said that I think we have the Best Baby Ever ;). I think that it is totally NORMAL to find your own child/children amazing (at every age!) and to be thrilled with the smallest things they do, but when you start seeking public recognition for those things, it's a bit different. Like I think it's AWESOME when our baby responds to "Where is the zebra?" by crawling over to the zebra and picking it up, and I even told grandma and grandpa about it the first time he did it (and they were suitablly impressed :D ) but I don't expect anyone to give him a medal for it or anything! KWIM?


Yes, I do know but I guess that there are those who take those amazing points to the extreme and then carry on after the infant/toddler stage. I do remember a friend whose son (same age as my oldest...her only) was always the best at everything and we had to hear about it everyday.:rolleyes: I always found her to be the exception amongst my friends.

My kids are smart but lazy so I don't brag on them much since I know that it's not the best they can do. But my kids are also very happy, well rounded people who can actually read a book, take a test without freaking out, and carry on a conversation with adults...still amazing!

[GingerPow]

I do remember a friend whose son (same age as my oldest...her only) was always the best at everything and we had to hear about it everyday.:rolleyes:
One of my closest friends has been that way since her kids were babies. I always just accepted it, that's how she showed her pride in her kids, I never took it to be competition. (Maybe it was and I'm too dense to see it).;)

They were ahead of all other babies in everything, practically potty trained from the womb - then later on in school were both in the gifted programs, took piano lessons, dance lessons, singing lessons, etc. The interesting thing to me is, while the oldest is doing well academically, just got her Master's Degree and going on to her PhD, she is extremely awkward in social situations, like some part of her stopped at 12.

The younger sibling, also highly intelligent, is socially adept but has no direction or feeling of purpose. She is in the local community college getting certified in a health related field, but I sense that it's a way to go, not something from her heart. The poor thing seems lost to me, and I know her parents worry about her.

Both of these kids surprised me - I thought they'd both have the world by the tail by now.

[Lauren]

My kids are smart but lazy so I don't brag on them much since I know that it's not the best they can do. But my kids are also very happy, well rounded people who can actually read a book, take a test without freaking out, and carry on a conversation with adults...still amazing!

Reading this thread has given me a lot to think about. My kids are not active ... in anything. :eek: Sure, they played town soccer, basketball and football, but neither are real athletes or particularly interested. They would rather go fishing. Both DH and I have encouraged them to get involved ... in anything, not just sports.

DS2 is a straight A student and DS1 could be if he wasn't so lazy and worked a bit harder. I refuse to feel as if my kids are losers because they don't play sports. :mad: They are great kids, respectful, caring, etc. Well, maybe not to each other. :rolleyes:

If they turn out to be well-rounded considerate, emotionally healthy men, I'll be thrilled.

One more thing. This BS about kids being behind in sports if they haven't started by age 5 is really upsetting. Why do parents allow this? A little competition is healthy but this sounds damaging.

[Canice]

Well, I'm a baby boomer who didn't have her first child until she was 28, didn't get married until I was 26. I find a lot of what you posted rather insulting.

Yes, I found the fact that we had a child amazing and every thing that child did was amazing...his first smile, his rolling over, sitting up, first words and on and on and on...and I relived those things with the next 2 children. It's a small world when it's just you and your baby. Getting into school ages things changed...

We lived well within out means, carried only the mortgage as debt though we could have paid it off, and for the most part had a single income (though I did work part-time at the school once all 3 were in school).

Baby on Board signs make me smile and also warn me that the person driving may be a bit distracted by the little person occupying the baby seat in the rear, hard to reach seat. Certainly have never taken it to mean "Hey look at me! I can reproduce!"


I'm sorry my views offend you, sneezles! When discussing general topics ("What's Wrong with Us?" "What Should I Know About Raising a Boy?" etc.) general perspectives will be aired. They are not directed at any *one* or *every* one individual -- they are just general observations. Not claimed to be true of each and every member of a group, but the group considered as a whole.
When I say "nothing personal" I don't mean it as a platitude, but literally: That I'm not talking about Miz Sneezles herself in my comments, but a certain sweeping group. And in that, I stand by my observations: I believe they are accuarate and justified. And that they could be backed up by social science.

Two relevant facts to point out, just to further my own POV:

1. The word "yuppie" was coined by Alice Kahn, of the The San Francisco Chronicle, in the early 1980s. She was a social satirist, and the stories she wrote of the "young urban professionals" around her match perfectly my own recollections of the time.
2. A fairly recent conversation with a friend -- on the very subject discussed here-- had her recommending the book The Price of Privelege (http://www.amazon.com/Price-Privilege-Advantage-Generation-Disconnected/dp/0060595841/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-7893030-7373651?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1181025352&sr=1-1), How Parental Pressure and Material Advantage Are Creating a Generation of Disconnected and Unhappy Kids.
I don't know that I will ever read it, but I did observe that the author is a practicing psychologist right where I grew up, no doubt with many clients in my own high school.

I had to laugh at your comment that you "didn't get married until I was 26" -- OMG!! As if that's late! It sounds so funny to me that that would be an explanation of sorts -- I've known about 5 people who married in their 20s! And not having your first child "until" you were 28! My mind was on people have their first at 42, 43, 45.... I was born in the 1960s, and my mom was 40. My entire life people have thought she was my grandmother. I had to defend her "advanced" age throughout my childhood, and I always told my friends, "She didn't even get MARRIED until she was 32!" Freaked. people. out. Not married until 32?? So I think our views are waaaay divergent on the idea of "age".

Two last things:
Yes, I found the fact that we had a child amazing and every thing that child did was amazing...his first smile, his rolling over, sitting up, first words and on and on and on...and I relived those things with the next 2 children. It's a small world when it's just you and your baby.

Yes, of course. 'most every parent feels that way. But it's not in keeping with the context of my comments.

Baby on Board signs make me smile and also warn me that the person driving may be a bit distracted by the little person occupying the baby seat in the rear, hard to reach seat. Certainly have never taken it to mean "Hey look at me! I can reproduce!"

Thanks for that perspective. I honestly never knew what the real point of the sign was (as said 1980s teenager, I had a sticker on my car that read "No child in car -- OK to hit me!"). I don't think I'll ever change my driving habits because I fear the woman in front of me is distracted by a baby in the back seat, but what the hey -- if it's meant to be the adult equivalent of "student driver" tagged on a car, I'll take the advice!

[stefania4]

I've known about 5 people who married in their 20s! And not having your first child "until" you were 28! My mind was on people have their first at 42, 43, 45.... I always told my friends, "She didn't even get MARRIED until she was 32!" Freaked. people. out. Not married until 32??

That brings up another point, which is that family sizes have gotten much smaller, too. My sister has 3 kids, and I honestly had no idea what to get as a baby gift for #3 since I don't know anyone who has such a huge family. I finally gave up asking for suggestions within my age group, because none of my friends knew anyone with that many kids, either. My aunt came up with some suggestions (as did some folks on this board).

The point being, when parents have four or five kids, I imagine they expect that some of them will be superachievers and some of them won't. No reflection on parenting style or genetics, it's just that life works that way - in a group of any 5 people you will have different strengths and weaknesses and talents represented. It's possible that when couples limit their family to one or two kids, their expectations are much different.

To a lesser degree, there may be a consumerism mentality as well. A friend who teaches at a private school was talking about that; the parents seem to think that they have paid for the grades and the child "deserves" to get them, whether they did the work or not. It's possible that parents who have put a lot of money into sports, tutoring, fancy pre-school, etc. feel that because they have spent the $ they should have something empirical to show for it, something beyond the child having had experiences X, Y, and Z (which may very well be valuable in ways not yet apparent).

[sneezles]

I had to laugh at your comment that you "didn't get married until I was 26" -- OMG!! As if that's late! It sounds so funny to me that that would be an explanation of sorts -- I've known about 5 people who married in their 20s! And not having your first child "until" you were 28! My mind was on people have their first at 42, 43, 45.... I was born in the 1960s, and my mom was 40. My entire life people have thought she was my grandmother. I had to defend her "advanced" age throughout my childhood, and I always told my friends, "She didn't even get MARRIED until she was 32!" Freaked. people. out. Not married until 32?? So I think our views are waaaay divergent on the idea of "age".



So glad to provide your entertainment!:rolleyes: I based my answer on what I know and have experienced. I was the exception in my high school class and I guess I find it insulting that my experience is laughable...

[Canice]

I wasn't laughing at you, I was laughing at how two people can perceive one notion in totally different ways. That is, one person "marrying late" at 28 when it's considered practically "marrying young" in your own circle. That's all.


Interesting observation about family size, Stephanie - I know that topic is a very big deal in Italy, which has the lowest birth rate in Europe. Most families have one child only, and I know there is much public discussion about the implications of that.

[honeygirl1971]

I was laughing at how two people can perceive one notion in totally different ways. That is, one person "marrying late" at 28 when it's considered practically "marrying young" in your own circle. That's all.

Interesting observation about family size, Stephanie - I know that topic is a very big deal in Italy, which has the lowest birth rate in Europe. Most families have one child only, and I know there is much public discussion about the implications of that.

This is a topic that you hear about on the news all the time over here! France has the second HIGHEST birth rate in Europe (only Ireland is higher!! No one knows how this happened!), and you often hear about how this affects social policy. Countries like Germany that see themselves having a birth rate "problem" are trying to find ways to encourage people to have more kids (great benefits for families, great maternity/paternity leave, and so on), whereas here the politicians keeps saying, "Well, we don't have that problem!" A problem France DOES have now though is childcare, and that was a big issue in the recent election.


As far as the age/marriage thing, I know what you mean, Canice. I see myself as marrying relatively "late" at 33, and as having kids late since I was just shy of 35 when I had my first, but then again, when I look at my social circle, I am right in the middle--some friends earlier, some later!

[misskitty100]

As far as the age/marriage thing, I know what you mean, Canice. I see myself as marrying relatively "late" at 33, and as having kids late since I was just shy of 35 when I had my first, but then again, when I look at my social circle, I am right in the middle--some friends earlier, some later!

I was 32 when I had my first. In our area the hospital sets up new mother groups (if you are interested) and I joined one. All the other mothers accept for me were 36 and older and just having their first. There was nobody in the group that was in their 20's. I think it is rare *around here* to find mothers that are in their younger 20's.

[sneezles]

As far as the age/marriage thing, I know what you mean, Canice. I see myself as marrying relatively "late" at 33, and as having kids late since I was just shy of 35 when I had my first, but then again, when I look at my social circle, I am right in the middle--some friends earlier, some later!

I was 32 when I had my first. In our area the hospital sets up new mother groups (if you are interested) and I joined one. All the other mothers accept for me were 36 and older and just having their first. There was nobody in the group that was in their 20's. I think it is rare *around here* to find mothers that are in their younger 20's.


You're both from a different generation than myself!;)

[testkitchen45]

My sister has 3 kids, and I honestly had no idea what to get as a baby gift for #3 since I don't know anyone who has such a huge family.

This statement really tickled me! :) I got a smile out of the idea that three kids is a "huge family." (To emphasize: I wasn't offended in the slightest, but quite amused!) Now, on the other hand, the family I saw at the library the other day, with 8 (and counting . . . ?); that's huge to me. ;)

I agree with Canice's earlier post, about the type of parent who thinks his/her child can do no wrong, and who throws $$ at the child instead of spending time, the old-fashioned way (my paraphrase, anyway). And I agree with Sneezles (gee, I'm just Switzerland today, so neutral :D ) that each of us thinks his/her child is the be-all and end-all of progeny. I think the secret is to strike a humble balance. One of the joys (and responsibilities) of having children is that you're really in love with them, and you celebrate their accomplishments, from teeny to huge. Kids need that! But some parents have forgotten that the other guy is just as nuts about his kids too, or that "my child" can actually do wrong and need correction. Getting back to do-lolly's OP, it seems that those of us who are asking the question "how did these things become normal, & what can I do about it?" are probably parenting just fine, whatever our family's personal style--it's those to whom the question never occurs who are going to have problems with over-competitiveness & excess.

(Me, I'm just happy with our very-unscheduled summer. The kids don't have to be ready for Harvard or the Olympics by September. :) )

[clairea]

This statement really tickled me! :) I got a smile out of the idea that three kids is a "huge family."

This tickled me too, because I keep hearing that "three is the new two." Among people I know, I am definitely in the minority with only two kids. I'm also in the minority because I had my last child at 29 - most of my friends didn't even start thinking about kids until they were in their 30s.

I have really mixed feelings about this thread. There are definitely a lot of parents who put too much pressure on their kids, think their kids can do no wrong, and allow the world to revolve around their children. However, I don't think going back to the way things were in the 60's and 70's (or even earlier) is necessarily the answer - sure things were simpler, but I have heard many people on this board and IRL say that they wish their parents had been more involved, that they had been encouraged to pursue more of their interests, and that their parents had understood a little more about child development. Remember the "happy childhood" thread from a few months ago?

There has to be a happy medium somewhere, and I struggle every day trying to find it. I do provide a lot of academic reinforcement at home -- not because I want to give them an "advantage", but because I think that it is my job as a parent to focus on the needs of my individual children, while it is the job of the schools to focus on the needs of the classroom as a whole. My kids are in lots of activities, but they are the activities *they* have expressed an interest in. When they do get involved in something, I do encourage them to do their best -- whatever their personal best is. We also spend a lot of time just "hanging out" and letting them entertain themselves. My TV is rarely on, my kids are usually outside getting dirty, and neighborhood kids show up on my doorstep fairly regularly for a popsicle and a smile, so things must be working out ok:)

As far as "scheduling playdates", I think that is really a function of the times. As others have mentioned, with so many parents working kids either aren't at home to just "go out and play" or they have friends who don't live nearby. Also, in many areas it just isn't safe to send your kids out to play unless you know exactly where they are, so they can't really go find someone down the street like we did when we were kids. There were predators when we were kids, but there were also parents (mothers) home in almost every house, and people knew each other. Now in many neighborhoods it is not that way.

[sneezles]

However, I don't think going back to the way things were in the 60's and 70's (or even earlier) is necessarily the answer - sure things were simpler, but I have heard many people on this board and IRL say that they wish their parents had been more involved, that they had been encouraged to pursue more of their interests, and that their parents had understood a little more about child development. Remember the "happy childhood" thread from a few months ago?



My mother was not a good parent. She never got involved in any of my school or after school activities. When I left for college she simply stood on the porch and waved good-bye...gone back inside before the car left the driveway. If anything I was discouraged from participating because that meant she would have to probably drive me somewhere and she hated to drive. I pretty much did the opposite!:p

[Peggy]

My mother was not a good parent. She never got involved in any of my school or after school activities. When I left for college she simply stood on the porch and waved good-bye...gone back inside before the car left the driveway. If anything I was discouraged from participating because that meant she would have to probably drive me somewhere and she hated to drive. I pretty much did the opposite!:p


((((Susan)))):( That is so sad. However, it sounds like you learned from your pain and her bad example and have been a terrific mother to your children.

Peggy

[Asiadeep]

I believe that the reason could possibly be put down to the level of communication that we all enjoy now and also the influences of the general media to alter our perception and maybe make us feel slightly inferior thus contributing to us putting our expectations to our children coz we "failed"