HR/Work Discipline question (and it's long...sorry)

[Cookin4Love]

I got a call from my DD just now, very upset because she has been disciplined at work for a situation, and the whole thing makes no sense to me. In my job, I do handle employee discipline, and I would never go forward with something this tenuous. I'll try to relate the situation as succinctly as possible, and am curious about others' thoughts.

About 2 weeks ago, DD called me to tell me she had been called in to HR and asked about an alleged incident that occurred at a happy hour where several employees were present. It was not an official work event, and she was not there in any official capacity. She was told that she was overheard making a comment about someone else's sexual orientation, it was overheard by a third person, that person went to their supervisor, and the supervisor went to HR. Her HR director would not tell her what she was accused of saying, or where the accusation came from. She was told that since it was not a work function, HR had no authority over the situation, but they just wanted her to know to watch what she said. She was also told that the person she supposedly said it about didn't know, and she had "better be glad he didn't know." Incidentally, the person is her supervisor, he is openly gay, and they have an excellent working relationship. Even at that time, she had no idea what she might have said that could even have been misconstrued. She said no such conversation came up throughout the evening. Even if it did, she has no qualms about other people's sexual orientation, and really does like and respect the person she is accused of denigrating. Also, although it was happy hour, she wasn't drinking any alcohol.

Later that afternoon, the person she supposedly made the comment about talked with her, as HR had told him what she was accused of saying. He told her he knew better, wasn't worried about it, and wouldn't care if she did say it, as her life outside of work is her own business. This is consistent with his approach to pretty much everything. Still, he didn't tell her what she was accused of saying. As far as she knew, it was dropped.

Today, she was called in and written up. On the write-up, it states that it happened outside of work and was not a work-related event. Further, it states that "A person overheard a conversation between two other people in which one of them related that she made an inappropriate comment about someone's sexual orientation. They were so uncomfortable about it, they went to their supervisor."

So, we have an unknown comment, discussed by two unknown people, overheard by a third unknown person, reported to an unknown supervisor, reported to HR...which results in disciplinary action. Numerous people have been brought into the situation, including several layers of supervisors. She said that none of them seems mad, and her direct supervisor argued against the write-up, saying she was flat-out uncomfortable with it and didn't feel it had any merit. HR is saying they have "fully investigated" and that there have been "numerous" witness statements corroborating the events.

All I know is that I would not...in fact, could not...discipline an employee for something that happened outside of work, and outside the scope of their job. Further, I woud tell the employee what they were accused of saying. I understand that HR cannot provide her with information about who accused her or who has made statements, but I find it fishy that they will not tell her what she supposedly said. When I do discipline, I include all of the details without violating privacy concerns. Other than sympathy, I don't even know what to tell her. Any ideas?

[misskitty100]

No wonder HR depts have such bad reputations...:rolleyes:

Are they being hypervigilant or what???

Does she work for a large company?

ETA: So what if she did make a comment about someone else? Even if it was a negative comment, doesn't seem like that is breaking any law or anything.

[Angelina]

I think that's crazy. Is this going to be a part of her permanent record?

I remember when my ex supervisor was investigated by HR (it really felt like the Inquisition had descended upon us) for supposedly saying things over a period of time, which he never did. I was told I was a part of the group of people complaining about him, but they would not tell me who mentioned my name and why. I would NEVER do anything like that to him since he's a great guy.

I think the problem for your daughter is that even if it was after hours, there were a lot of coworkers present so that becomes semi-work time. Also, people can claim sexual harassment (or whatever it is they claim) about things that are not even addressed to them, but could be said by another coworker about someone else in their presence. At least that's what I remember being taught in sexual harassment classes...

Angela

[Cookin4Love]

Yes, Misskitty, it's a large company, although it's made up of lots of small divisions. She is in management, but pretty close to the bottom of the ladder. I don't know if they're being hypervigilant, or if someone else is really upset about what she supposedly said and can't be objective. Since this is being handled so out of sync with what I would do--or could do--I'm at a loss about the whole thing.

[mst]

As a former HR person, I think this is odd.

Here's what I would suggest. I think the whole thing is bizarre, and I am not sure what she is exactly being disciplined for (i.e.- did she break a company policy? Would it even matter since it was a non-work related event?). Is she actually being disciplined, or was she just written up? I think I would rather bury this than dig too deep into this. I would suggest that she write a letter objecting to her write-up, and including her side of the story (it was not at work, she does not even know what she supposedly said, she can not defend herself or apologize if she is unaware of the situation.) Then, I would have her ask to check her file to make sure they are filed together. Then, move on. This way, if she does apply for another job and the new manager asks to see her file, her side of this silly story is there. If she changes companies- her file does not matter.

Although it seems huge because it is happening to her, her company file is so very rarely seen. If no one above her is concerned, this will be water under the bridge very soon.

Good luck to her.

[Cookin4Love]

As a former HR person, I think this is odd.

Here's what I would suggest. I think the whole thing is bizarre, and I am not sure what she is exactly being disciplined for (i.e.- did she break a company policy? Would it even matter since it was a non-work related event?). Is she actually being disciplined, or was she just written up? I think I would rather bury this than dig too deep into this. I would suggest that she write a letter objecting to her write-up, and including her side of the story (it was not at work, she does not even know what she supposedly said, she can not defend herself or apologize if she is unaware of the situation.) Then, I would have her ask to check her file to make sure they are filed together. Then, move on. This way, if she does apply for another job and the new manager asks to see her file, her side of this silly story is there. If she changes companies- her file does not matter.

Although it seems huge because it is happening to her, her company file is so very rarely seen. If no one above her is concerned, this will be water under the bridge very soon.

Good luck to her.

They will not tell her what policy she has supposedly violated. Yes, it is discipline, as she will basically be put "on probation" for 90 days, and if she violates any company policies within the next 12 months, she will face immediate termination. That's why it's such a big deal. In one way, she's really calm, because she says, "I know didn't do it. If I was going to do something, this wouldn't be it. There are lots of things I might say that someone could misconstrue, and I'd admit it, but this type of comment isn't consistent with my feelings or beliefs, and I wouldn't have said anything that could have been taken that way."

She did write her objections on the document, and I believe included everything you mentioned. Would you suggest she write a more formal letter as well? She's really afraid of pushing anything right now, as her gut feeling is that it's the HR director who is the only one really upset, and she's afraid he'll be gunning for her if she rocks the boat. And that has happened to others, so it's not far-fetched.

[saserre]

Wow, your DD must work for my old company! They were known for doing crap just like that and using hearsay as an excuse to reprimand a person.

It's bad enough that something that may or may not have been said at an outside of work function was even brought up at work at all, but to be written up for it is ridiculous. I'd check with company policy on that, that doesn't seem right/legal to me to have something like that in her permanent file.

Back in college a fellow student was kicked out for sexual harrassment, and it was said that he harassed me. I had no idea. I think he made a joke that was a little off color (of course, I've been known to as well), and someone overheard and was offended for me. I felt so bad when the Dean called me in about "The Incident" that I didn't even remember.

I wonder sometimes where the line is when you say something, but someone else takes it a completely different way and gets offended on someone's behalf for/against you, and then based on that hearsay they now have some sort of power. :(

[ljt2r]

That's an extremely appalling story. However, and I am NOT defending them, but in this era of litigation over anything, especially issues like race, gender, and sexual orientation, I guess it does not surprise me that she was called in about it. It DOES surprise me that she was written up and that they won't say what she said. How far up the food chain could she go, complaining? I would be tempted to. After all, if they won't tell her what she did, how can they prove she did it? And if there is no proof, why is she being punished? Does one of her co-workers have it out for her? Could the "victim" complain on her behalf since she has a good relationship with him?

Yikes, I feel bad for your daughter.

Laura

[ljt2r]

As a former HR person, I think this is odd.

Here's what I would suggest. I think the whole thing is bizarre, and I am not sure what she is exactly being disciplined for (i.e.- did she break a company policy? Would it even matter since it was a non-work related event?). Is she actually being disciplined, or was she just written up? I think I would rather bury this than dig too deep into this. I would suggest that she write a letter objecting to her write-up, and including her side of the story (it was not at work, she does not even know what she supposedly said, she can not defend herself or apologize if she is unaware of the situation.) Then, I would have her ask to check her file to make sure they are filed together. Then, move on. This way, if she does apply for another job and the new manager asks to see her file, her side of this silly story is there. If she changes companies- her file does not matter.

Although it seems huge because it is happening to her, her company file is so very rarely seen. If no one above her is concerned, this will be water under the bridge very soon.

Good luck to her.

I posted my previous reply before seeing this (I had started to answer, got called away, and came back and finished--in the meantime lots of responses came up). Anyway, I agree 100% with this after reading the rest of the comments. And I would definitely write a formal letter.

Laura

[Cookin4Love]

I wonder sometimes where the line is when you say something, but someone else takes it a completely different way and gets offended on someone's behalf for/against you, and then based on that hearsay they now have some sort of power. :(

I know where the line would be for me. The first time it happened, I would talk to the person who said it, and explain that they had caused offense. We'd talk about the fact that the speaker's intent is only part of the problem, and the listener's feelings are the other part. I would explain that I would have no choice but to take disciplinary action if there were further complaints, but would also express my belief that the employee did not mean to cause offense and would be sure to keep it from happening again. I would document our conversation in my personal files, but not in the employee's personnel file, and I'm willing to bet it would be the last conversation I would have with that individual. To me, there should be no discipline in this type of situation without a fair warning, as it is my understanding that sexual harrassment hasn't occurred in a gray-area incident until the harrasser has been informed that they are causing offense. In DD's case, I don't even think she was written up for sexual harrassmet. They did not state the policy she violated.

[aggie94]

A couple of comments:

1) Not sure what state you are in, but not every state allows employees to access or view their personnel files, so she may not even be able to "check" to see what was put in her file. In Arizona, employees have no right to access their personnel files, and I generally advise my clients not to let their employees access their personnel files. She can (and obviously has) made her objections in writing to the discipline, and I think that's pretty much all she should do at this point.

2) It's a gray area as to whether HR can discipline her for something that happened outside of work. Even if it was not a work-sanctioned event, the fact that many work employees (including supervisors) were there makes it more likely that the employer would be liable for something that happened there if they did nothing. They're obviously engaging in CYA by doing this, as many employers would (and often should).

3) That's a p*ss-poor investigation if it went as you described. Sounds like the interviews were conducted half-@ssedly (yes, I made that up :D), maybe with a preconceived idea of what the outcome would be even before witnesses are interviewed. Of course, you really don't know whether HR spoke to several people who all corroborated the same story, in which case it would be difficult for a single person's account (your DD's) to counterbalance the conclusion. At a minimum, I do agree that your DD should have been asked whether she ever said, "[insert alleged overheard statement]" and other specific questions to bring out the facts. Still, HR could have reached the same conclusion that they did. The "numerous witness statements corroborating the event" suggests that HR had a basis to conclude the way they did, regardless of what your DD's account of the events might be, and regardless of whether she was given a fair chance to tell her story. Unfortunate as it is, there you go.

My advice: let it go. It's done, and nothing she does now is likely to erase the disciplinary memo that is in her file.

[carolinagirl77]

3) That's a p*ss-poor investigation if it went as you described. Sounds like the interviews were conducted half-@ssedly (yes, I made that up)

I certainly agree with this statement and, BTW, love the new word, certainly beats RR's EVOO!

I would definitely write a formal letter and then ask my supervisor to accompany me to an HR meeting. I think hearing from her supervisor would carry a lot of weight and she could also document that meeting and the supervisor's take on the whole thing.

[lindrusso]

They will not tell her what policy she has supposedly violated.

Can they do that?

How in the world is she to correct her supposed misconduct if she doesn't know what she supposedly said or did or what policy she even violated?

That doesn't make any sense at all. Ooooo...you did something really bad, but we can't tell you anything about it but you're going to get written up for it and disciplined for it. This doesn't even give an employee a chance to change their behavior and try to come into compliance - not that she did anything wrong to begin with, but what if she had? What would she learn from this? Not a d@mn thing.

Doesn't this kind of policy give the company carte blanche to make up anything they like without any obligation to prove anything?

Yikes. Reading some of these things makes me really glad I don't work out in the corporate world...........

[Cookin4Love]

How in the world is she to correct her supposed misconduct if she doesn't know what she supposedly said or did or what policy she even violated?

That doesn't make any sense at all. Ooooo...you did something really bad, but we can't tell you anything about it but you're going to get written up for it and disciplined for it. This doesn't even give an employee a chance to change their behavior and try to come into compliance - not that she did anything wrong to begin with, but what if she had? What would she learn from this? Not a d@mn thing.

Doesn't this kind of policy give the company carte blanche to make up anything they like without any obligation to prove anything?

I think you said it better than I did...this is exactly what bothers me. At least tell her what it is she supposedly said so she can go back and fit it into the context and avoid doing something similar again. Right now, she's afraid to even hold an innocuous conversation with anyone, because she doesn't know who she upset or even how she upset them. She's the kind of person who will tell you right up front if she has done something wrong, and she'll take the spanking. She's always been that way. Plus, the general idea of what she's supposed to have said is totally inconsistent with her feelings, and it just doesn't make sense that she would have said it.

I also feel, like you do, that this gives the company far too little accountability in disciplinary situations. Honestly, when I do discipline with kids, I sometimes have parents come in and want to argue it with me. Now, I always give the kid due process, and talk to others directly involved. If I'm convinced based on that, I don't disrupt the learning of other kids by pulling in all kinds of witnesses. But....if a parent comes in and challenges me, I always say that I've got several corroborating statements. It just ends the conversation. So to me, the fact that they SAY they have corroboration doesn't mean anything; they know she can't find out.

(Now, just to clarify...if I have ANY doubt, I do more extensive investigation, but I know the kids, I know the situations, and usually, I get good information from kids. It's just that they go home and get in trouble, and the stories change. Or...the kids take responsibility, but the parents don't want them to, so they challenge. Don't throw tomatoes at me, please.)

Aggie, thanks for the legal point of view. Yes, we are a right to work state, which leaves the employees with very few rights with regard to the personnel file or disciplinary action.

I feel very bad for her. She feels completely isolated at work right now, as she has no idea if someone is out to get her. She's strong, she'll get through it, but as her mama, I don't like it.

[LakeMartinGal]

How in the world is she to correct her supposed misconduct if she doesn't know what she supposedly said or did or what policy she even violated?

That doesn't make any sense at all. Ooooo...you did something really bad, but we can't tell you anything about it but you're going to get written up for it and disciplined for it. This doesn't even give an employee a chance to change their behavior and try to come into compliance - not that she did anything wrong to begin with, but what if she had? What would she learn from this? Not a d@mn thing.

Doesn't this kind of policy give the company carte blanche to make up anything they like without any obligation to prove anything?

Yikes. Reading some of these things makes me really glad I don't work out in the corporate world...........I agree -- this is just like saying, "If you don't know, I'm not going to tell you!" huh?

[funniegrrl]

If it were me, I'd:

Write a formal counter on the write-up -- which she's done.
Otherwise drop it.
Stop going to non-work work gatherings.
Stop having casual conversations with ANYone.
Start looking for a new job IMMEDIATELY.

Honestly, with an HR dept like that, the sword of Damocles is hanging over her head, and she has no idea who to trust with anything. Best protect yourself and get out asap.

[lindrusso]

Write a formal counter on the write-up -- which she's done.
Otherwise drop it.
Stop going to non-work work gatherings.
Stop having casual conversations with ANYone.
Start looking for a new job IMMEDIATELY.


Yeah, really, this does NOT sound like a good place to work. But I know that leaving a job is often easier said than done.

I was telling DH about this tonight and he said that his HR department's approach is directed more toward correcting behavior rather than discipline (depending on the exact circumstances, I'm sure). That makes sense!

I get hot under the collar thinking about this situation and I'm not even involved! :mad:

[Cookin4Love]

If it were me, I'd:

Write a formal counter on the write-up -- which she's done.
Otherwise drop it.
Stop going to non-work work gatherings.
Stop having casual conversations with ANYone.
Start looking for a new job IMMEDIATELY.

Honestly, with an HR dept like that, the sword of Damocles is hanging over her head, and she has no idea who to trust with anything. Best protect yourself and get out asap.

I agree, and so does she. She has, in fact, been looking for something for several months. However, her field is very specialized, and she's having a hard time finding a position that comes within 75% of her current pay and has equivalent responsibiilties.

I don't know if you guys remember me posting when she went back after her brain surgery, and she had to fight to get them to give her an equivalent position. They had her in a mind-numbing job that would have paid $8 an hour if they weren't at least paying her equivalent salary. They didn't move her back into a management position for weeks, and not until she started moving through the HR channels. I think it's entirely likely that Mr. HR has been seething this entire time because she went over his head, and now has something to hit her with--unfounded though it may be.

She did talk to an attorney today who told her they believed it is all related, but to be sure she's ready to walk out before they send a letter, as she will probably get fired. There is also at least one other case where she has personal knowledge that someone did not do what they are accused of, but they have been demoted in both pay and position because of a higher-up's vendetta. So obviously, she is trying to find work elsewhere. She's afraid to take off for interviews now, though, because they could write her up for something related to that if they wanted to. She's in a hard place.

(This is where I'll insert my "I told you so." She moved back out of our home about a month ago--against my advice. I felt she needed to stay until she had some medical bills paid off and several months' salary in the bank. However, she's 26 and knows more than I do. Now it's biting her.)

Alysha, your DH's company sounds like my approach to employee discipline. Even great employees sometimes make bad decisions. If they're coachable, I'd much rather keep them!

[BarbaraL]

I hope your daughter finds another job soon. I can't imagine being disciplined without being told specifically what I'd done (or said) that was objectionable. And, in this scenario, any bozo with an axe to grind could lie and just make up an incident, or take an innocent comment out of context. Sounds like your assessment that they're looking for ammunition against her is right on.