Is DS going thru a phase or is this something more???

[misskitty100]

DS turned 4 in May and lately has had a really tough time when he doesn't get his way particularly involving buying toys at the store. We don't take him to Target anymore because he would leave in tears if we didn't buy him something.

The other day I came home and gave him a small ($2) toy I had picked up for him. Then the next day when I got home he had a melt down because I hadn't brought him anything like the day before even though the day before toy was not anything I regularly do.

We are headed to Disneyland in a couple of months and I don't want the trip ruined because of him being dissapointed that he can't have everything he sees for sale. BTW, almost every ride at DL has a gift shop attached at the exit....really nice for us parents.:mad:

Aside from discussing expectations (his and ours) prior to the trip, what are some things we can do to head this off? I can't give him a set $$ amount because he is too young to understand the concept.

[cas]

Tough one for a little one, I know my daughter was great with this issue when she was younger- just had to tell her that we weren't buying any toys. Her younger brother one the other hand didn't get the concept as well. He had meltdowns but got over it and I would tell him when it was appropriate for him to buy something........he wasn't always happy but I have no reason why some children are more accepting of it then others.:)

[Beth]

Yes, I think you are being put to a test -- one that will be repeated in different forms from time to time. It will be easiest in the long run if you nip this in the bud -- quickly and firmly. Resist the temptation to bring him something or to give in to his demands at all. I would not completely modify your behavior either. Take him into a store if you need to. You will pay for it many times over if you do, and I promise that every parent who has been there will not think you are a bad parent because you take a kif out of the store in a screaming fit.

Talk to him and let him know that any request thet is accompanied by a threat of a fit gets an automatic NO WAY. Talk to him about advertising and making choices for ourselves. Get him some practice time in passing things up before you go to Disneyland -- fpor your sake.

[Robyncz]

I think the most important thing you can do is be consistent. Like Beth said, if you give in once, you send a very powerful message.

My girls know that they will never get their way when they're throwing a fit. Period. That doesn't mean they never do it. But when I ask them "Has this ever worked before?" their answer is always "no." When I ask "Do you think there's a chance it's going to work this time?" the answer is still no.

I sympathize with you about Disney. That's going to be tough. But I think it's very important that you talk ahead of time--at a time when he is calm and comfortable--about how he can't always have everything he wants. Set reasonable limits for Disney (One souvenir for the trip--chosen on the last day, for example. Or one per day if that's what works for your family) and stick with it. Be clear about it up front, and come up with a plan together. My oldest daughter made up a silly word that we use when she's starting to feel frustrated, and that often stops her in her tracks and makes her laugh instead of cry. Maybe that will work for him, too?

And maybe, depending on what you think will work, you could discuss and plan out a "practice" trip to Target where you go together for some purpose and if he makes it out without pitching a fit, he gets a reward--like a trip to the ice-cream shop or pizza and a video or something--but NOT a toy from Target, because that would defeat the whole purpose.

Good luck! I hope this passes quickly. Everyone with kids has been there!

[jmarie]

REAL tough issue when DS was about that age. I would just have to pick him up or lead him by the hand and leave the store with him screaming. This went on for quite awhile, Maybe about 5.5 years of age....but when he finally figured it out, we could go to Toys-R-Us and spend an hour looking. He knew going in, if he could get something and otherwise, he planned for when he might get something. Oddly enough, and I didn't think about it until now, this was never an issue with DD.

[slknight]

My girls know that they will never get their way when they're throwing a fit. Period. That doesn't mean they never do it. But when I ask them "Has this ever worked before?" their answer is always "no." When I ask "Do you think there's a chance it's going to work this time?" the answer is still no.


:) We do the EXACT same thing. DS is pretty good in stores, but throws fits sometimes at home over various things. We always ask him "Has this ever worked before?" and he always says "no." We then ask him "What would possibly make you think this is going to work this time?" He then always says "I don't know." :p

[Robyn1007]

:) We do the EXACT same thing. DS is pretty good in stores, but throws fits sometimes at home over various things. We always ask him "Has this ever worked before?" and he always says "no." We then ask him "What would possibly make you think this is going to work this time?" He then always says "I don't know." :p

He, he, I use the same kind of psychology on the kids I coach. "Coach, I can't do that." my response is "Have I ever taken you down something you couldn't do?" their response is always "no" so then I ask them "Then why would you think I would do that now?" and they always say "I don't know." It really cracks me up to see the looks on their face when they realize that it's not going to get them out of getting themselves down the mountain.

[BucknellAlum]

I think the most important thing you can do is be consistent. Like Beth said, if you give in once, you send a very powerful message.

My girls know that they will never get their way when they're throwing a fit. Period. That doesn't mean they never do it. But when I ask them "Has this ever worked before?" their answer is always "no." When I ask "Do you think there's a chance it's going to work this time?" the answer is still no.

I sympathize with you about Disney. That's going to be tough. But I think it's very important that you talk ahead of time--at a time when he is calm and comfortable--about how he can't always have everything he wants. Set reasonable limits for Disney (One souvenir for the trip--chosen on the last day, for example. Or one per day if that's what works for your family) and stick with it. Be clear about it up front, and come up with a plan together. My oldest daughter made up a silly word that we use when she's starting to feel frustrated, and that often stops her in her tracks and makes her laugh instead of cry. Maybe that will work for him, too?

And maybe, depending on what you think will work, you could discuss and plan out a "practice" trip to Target where you go together for some purpose and if he makes it out without pitching a fit, he gets a reward--like a trip to the ice-cream shop or pizza and a video or something--but NOT a toy from Target, because that would defeat the whole purpose.

Good luck! I hope this passes quickly. Everyone with kids has been there!

Ditto this! This is great advice!

And one of the best parenting tips I ever read talked about how kids play us like slot machines. Even if we "pay off" only once every 11 or 12 tries (tantrums), it is still a pay off for them, so they continue to "pull the handle" by throwing a fit.

I try to remember that when one of the kids is pitching a fit. If you give in once, you're doomed. Another thing to avoid - saying, "If you keep whining, then we are leaving" but then NOT leaving. I can't tell you how many times I hear parents in the store saying, "please stop crying/whining/pinching your sister, or we are leaving right now." And then they keep saying that up and down every aisle! They are basically telling the kids to ignore them, since they don't follow through with their threats. I am not saying you do this of course, but it is hard to stick to your guns in Target!

[slknight]

He, he, I use the same kind of psychology on the kids I coach. "Coach, I can't do that." my response is "Have I ever taken you down something you couldn't do?" their response is always "no" so then I ask them "Then why would you think I would do that now?" and they always say "I don't know." It really cracks me up to see the looks on their face when they realize that it's not going to get them out of getting themselves down the mountain.

lol. We also do something similar with various activities with DS. For example, if we're going to go someplace new (like on a new hike or to a new park), sometimes DS whines that he doesn't want to go. We know he's going to have fun, but since he's never been there, he doesn't, kwim? We say stuff like "Don't you always have fun when we take you cool places?" and he says "yes." And we says "Do you really think we'd lead you astray on this?" and then he says "no." :p

[misskitty100]

Thanks for the good advice....please keep it coming!

[colleency]

I think Disneyland only has one ride that only exits through a store: Star Tours. All the rest have an alternate exit that does not go through the shop, even though there may be a shop located next to the exit (Jungle Cruise, Pirates), a shop located across from the exit (Winnie the Pooh, Indiana Jones), or a shop that appears to be the exit, but there is an alternate exit that bypasses the shop (Small World). Of course, you can see into most of these shops as you exit, which may be just as bad. :(

Most of the Fantasyland rides don't have exits near shops.

[clairea]

This is a tough issue. I agree with the advice that you cannot ever give in to a fit. Some kids will really persevere, and take longer to decide that throwing fits really won't work than other kids do. It can be really frustrating to be the parent of one of those kids;) He will eventually get there, though.

The only other piece of advice I have to offer is, in addition to not rewarding the fits, is to make sure that you do always reward desired behavior. So, the "practice" trip to Target someone suggested is a great idea. Obviously you can't buy him something or stop for a treat every single time he behaves in a store (hoping that this will become every time), but you do need to make a point of reinforcing that behavior somehow - perhaps just by talking about it, but also there are lots of non-monetary, non-food rewards (an extra story, playing a favorite game, maybe a special toy that you can reserve just for these times, etc.).

[stefania4]

My six-year-old niece had two meltdowns the last time I took her out. The first was at lunchtime when she said "I NEED a smoothie or a milkshake. I NEED one" and wouldn't drop it (her parents closely monitor/limit her sugar). She sulked in line at Jason's Deli but cheered up during lunch and we had a good time. Then we went clothes shopping and liked a shirt I wouldn't buy her. She was so enchanted with the picture on the shirt that she didn't notice it was thin and a little too small, and therefore see-through.

When I say meltdown, I mean an absolute crying, extended, gasping for air, "But I WANT IT!! But I really want it!" spoiled-brat fit. She's not a spoiled brat, but she was sure acting like it that day. I put her new dress on the counter, gave the sales clerk the cash, told her to keep the change and whisked said niece out of the store.

What helps me to keep my patience at those times is remembering two things: the fits are short-lived and the lessons learned are not. She pouted in the car the entire way back to the 'burb where she lives, but the next time I saw her it was like it never happened. And the next time I take her out, she'll probably (hopefully?) think twice about how she acts and what she expects from Aunt Stephanie.

And I can't speak for 4-year-olds, but when my niece was 5 she had it down to a science. I took her shopping for her Christmas dress and her gifts for her parents. She wanted a stuffed animal that was $3 more than her remaining spending money. Honest to God, she said "Well, when that happens I pout and my Daddy says I can spend $3 from next month's allowance." I told her I'm not Daddy, I'm Aunt Stephanie, and I can't make that offer to her - since she didn't have enough money, she couldn't get it. She refused to budge and I ended up looking like a near-abuser taking her to the front of the store by her shoulder. It stuck with me, though, that she knew exactly what she was doing.

[mrswaz]

My DS was the same way, although slightly younger. We had a deal one day to go do some shopping, and I told him all the places we were going, and then I told him that if he was very good and we had time, we'd stop at Toys R Us for a little bit. Well he was really good, but then he started carrying on at the last stop about something he wanted, and then he ran away and hid from me in the store.

He got the message right then and there. We left that store immediately without even buying the cart full of things I had and went straight home- which for us was a 30 minute drive so he had a long time to think about being naughty.

He hasn't acted up again while we are out, and this was several months ago. I don't know which part worked- leaving immediately without checking out or skipping the reward stop, but now he doesn't carry on to get his way and get something while shopping, and he also stays with me at all times. He's pretty darn pleasant to shop with now.

[hlao23]

And one of the best parenting tips I ever read talked about how kids play us like slot machines. Even if we "pay off" only once every 11 or 12 tries (tantrums), it is still a pay off for them, so they continue to "pull the handle" by throwing a fit.




Yep...it's called a "variable-ratio reinforcement" and this kind of reinforcement schedule is the hardest one to break according to behavior modification theory.

[Beth]

I think they had a simpler name for it when I took psychology -- or the fact that they didn't is why it didn't stick with me over the years, but that's why you have to be firm and consistnet. If the fit throwing works even once, they know it works sometimes, and they'll try again and again trying to find the next time it will work. Takes a lot of repetitions to seem like "never" again.

[MKSquared]

My experience is with a 5-year old who does - DID - the screaming, crying, "I need it" routine. We've recently purchased family passes for the zoo, and passing the gift shop, the carousel, and the ice cream stands was getting unpleasant with all the tantrums we had to endure.

Before we set out, we took $3 from his money jar. (He loves to collect coins that he finds, and he has close to $30 in that jar!) That $3 is all he gets to spend, but he really takes ownership of the money. He budgets it to what he wants: $1 on the carousel, and $2 in the gift shop to buy a little toy. He'll look in the store for things that he can buy, and is very happy to give his money to the cashier. (We typically pay for the sales tax, but that lesson can come later!)

It's a nice lesson in economics: allocation of limited resources. You'd be surprised at what kids can understand. It does take a little practice, so maybe you can try going to a county fair, or the zoo, or even to Target.

[RunnerKim]

MissKitty - how old of a 4 year old? Maybe it's time to start thinking about an allowance?

Lainey is definitely becoming much more aware of money and buying things (she'll turn 5 in September). Wanting this and that etc. We've been building her understanding of money and when she's 5 I plan to start her on an allowance. She'll get money she can spend however she wants, money that goes into "short term savings" (meaning she can still decide how to spend it but has think about it 24 hours and we get involved in the process of what to spend it on) - we'll do some simple interest with her on it, long term savings (college) and charity. I have the book Raising Fiscally Fit Kids which has some good ideas in it.

Kim

editing to add - I think I might also put in place a "bring something in to the house - something goes out of the house" to limit how much stuff accumulation occurs.

I see Mary Kate is thinking along the same lines.

[hlao23]

My experience is with a 5-year old who does - DID - the screaming, crying, "I need it" routine. We've recently purchased family passes for the zoo, and passing the gift shop, the carousel, and the ice cream stands was getting unpleasant with all the tantrums we had to endure.

Before we set out, we took $3 from his money jar. (He loves to collect coins that he finds, and he has close to $30 in that jar!) That $3 is all he gets to spend, but he really takes ownership of the money. He budgets it to what he wants: $1 on the carousel, and $2 in the gift shop to buy a little toy. He'll look in the store for things that he can buy, and is very happy to give his money to the cashier. (We typically pay for the sales tax, but that lesson can come later!)

It's a nice lesson in economics: allocation of limited resources. You'd be surprised at what kids can understand. It does take a little practice, so maybe you can try going to a county fair, or the zoo, or even to Target.

LOVE this!

I remember being in a bookstore once and a boy was trying to convince his mother to buy him some book (hardcover). She simply reminded him that he had money that he could spend on it if he wished. Turned out that he didn't want the book as badly as he thought he did. :D

[Gracie]

She simply reminded him that he had money that he could spend on it if he wished. Turned out that he didn't want the book as badly as he thought he did. :D

They sure don't have to be just 5 to want to spend your money and not their own! :D

Good luck misskitty100. Consistency is really hard but worth it. Never say something you don't plan on following through with.

Kudos to mrswaz for leaving a cart full of things that took some time to pick out. I don't know if I could have done that!

Loren

[bekki]

I was going to suggest the exact same thing Mary-Kate did!

Although, you may want to judge the ability of your four year old and how they deal with numbers. I've seen the "you have $10 to spend for the trip, but once that's gone, it's gone" work REALLY well with a six year old. But some four year olds aren't quite there with their numbers.

Maybe with a four year old, you could simplify it to: "You may ask and recieve ONE thing. Once you've asked and recieved, you may ask for nothing else." I'm not a parent, but a teacher (worked with 3-18 year olds) so this may not work as well as I envision it :) But I do think this basic idea is a good one!

[ljt2r]

Maybe with a four year old, you could simplify it to: "You may ask and recieve ONE thing. Once you've asked and recieved, you may ask for nothing else." I'm not a parent, but a teacher (worked with 3-18 year olds) so this may not work as well as I envision it :) But I do think this basic idea is a good one!

LOL! :D I don't think even for us parents anything ever works as we envision it!

As to the OP, I pretty much ditto what everyone else has said--stick to your guns, set reasonable limits, use positive reinforcement. My kids aren't this old yet (2 yrs and 9 mos) and I am sure it (my handling of these situations) won't go as smoothly as I envision it either! :p

Laura

[emptyspool]

Was your son an easy two year old? There is an old saying, if you don't get the terrible two's at two, you will get them at four.

There is a book called "Your Four Year Old." Actually there is one for each year. I would buy one just as I was about to lose my mind and read IT WAS NORMAL BEHAVIOR!!!!! An owners manual if you will, every thing you ever wanted to know about four year olds and how to deal with it. These are just great books...take a look on Amazon.

http://www.amazon.com/Your-Four-Year-Old-Louise-Bates-Ames/dp/0385291434/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-6917504-1165665?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1185059846&sr=8-1

[misskitty100]

Was your son an easy two year old? There is an old saying, if you don't get the terrible two's at two, you will get them at four.

There is a book called "Your Four Year Old." Actually there is one for each year. I would buy one just as I was about to lose my mind and read IT WAS NORMAL BEHAVIOR!!!!! An owners manual if you will, every thing you ever wanted to know about four year olds and how to deal with it. These are just great books...take a look on Amazon.

http://www.amazon.com/Your-Four-Year-Old-Louise-Bates-Ames/dp/0385291434/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-6917504-1165665?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1185059846&sr=8-1

Yes, he was very easy and still is pretty much. It isn't like I have to carry him out of the store kicking and screaming....he really just gets sad and cries.

I will see if our library has this book. Thank you for the rec! I also want to get the fiscal book too - what a great subject!!