Pit Bulls and kids - LONG

[beacooker]

I hope this doesn't cause a firestorm, but I need advice.

I am scared of dogs. I grew up with dogs and loved them to death, and worked at an animal hospital for several years when I was in college. While I worked there, a long-time client of the hospital, who owned a kennel, was attacked by a pit-bull who was staying at the kennel. She was very badly injured, and was in the hospital for quite some time. After that, I suddenly found I was terrified of dogs, pretty much all kinds. No matter how happy they seem, I can always picture them suddenly turning vicious and attacking me (or my kids). Pretty much everyone else in my family and DH's family has dogs, ones that aren't known to suddenly attack people (goldens, labs, Great Pyrenees) , so I've gotten to be comfortable with some dogs, although even with them sometimes I still can't help but picture them attacking me.

My BIL's ex-wife (very recent ex, she and my BIL got divorced a few months ago) just bought my nephew, who is 14 and very troubled (in large part because of the divorce, and some other reasons also) a pit bull puppy. My nephew lives mostly with his mom, and is very mad at BIL about the divorce, so, sadly, he doesn't come over to BIL's house much any more, and is rarely at family gatherings.

With all the news stories I've heard (there have been several in this area recently) about pit bulls that have always seemed nice, suddenly attacking and sometimes killing people for no reason (i.e. the person wasn't doing anything unusual or threatening), even people the pit bull knew, I am petrified at the thought of being around one, and having my kids around one. If my BIL and his wife hadn't just divorced, and my nephew wasn't so troubled and angry with his dad right now, I wouldn't worry so much about asking my BIL to please have the pit-bull be put away in a room somewhere if my kids and I were there. I wouldn't put it as a demand, of course, but if he didn't want to do it (actually, I'm sure he wouldn't mind at all), I probably would choose to simply not go and not have my kids go, rather than being terrified the whole time.

BUT with the troubled times my nephew is going through, and his rocky relationship with his dad, I'm worried that BIL might not want to ask his son to put the dog away, and I don't blame him. We are supposed to be going to BIL's house this weekend, and I'm not sure what to do. If my nephew is there (a big if), he likely will have the dog with him. And I would love to see my nephew, and want him to know that I still love him despite the troubles he has had. The pit bull is still a puppy (I'm not sure how old), so at least theoretically, I won't be quite as worried now as I will be about it in a year.

Any advice on the best way to handle this? And am I being totally unfair in feeling differently about this because the dog is a pit-bull?

[SandyM]

And am I being totally unfair in feeling differently about this because the dog is a pit-bull?

I don't think so. I feel the same way you do, Anne, about pit bulls. I know there are people who love them and say they're unfairly labelled, but seriously - while I strongly dislike blanket statements, I've never heard of a golden retriever tearing off the limbs of a child. :rolleyes:

That said, I don't think it's unfair of you at all to ask your BIL to put the dog in another room, or leave it home altogether. Dogs sense fear, and while you may be able to keep it in check, your kids may not. I, quite frankly, would be a nervous wreck. My cousin had one, and I was never comfortable around it.

How old / big is the puppy now? As irrational as it sounds, it might make a difference to me if it weighed 20 lbs. vs. 75 lbs.

Best of luck, on all counts.

[beacooker]

How old / big is the puppy now? As irrational as it sounds, it might make a difference to me if it weighed 20 lbs. vs. 75 lbs.

Ex-SIL just had the puppy's ears done a few months ago, so I'm guessing the puppy isn't more than 6 months. So, realistically, not very likely to maul my kids or me. But I will probably still be scared.

And I'm sure DS1 will be scared of him - he is terrified of my parent's kitten! :D Which I can kind of understand, since the kitten stalks people and runs after them and bites and claws them, wanting to play. But it is kind of funny! But yeah, I'm very worried about the dog sensing all of our fear.

[ljt2r]

These are kinda 2 different issues, the issue of whether to be more concerned about a pit bull and whether or not you should ask someone to put a dog away around your children. As to the first, I am one of those who defends pit bulls and believes strongly in condemning the breeders and owners, not the breed. It is possible to acquire well-bred pit bulls--responsible breeders put down any puppies who show even the slightest amount of aggression toward people and do their best to breed it out of the breed. However, in this case, you have not really provided us with a ringing endorsement of this family's ability to make sure they raise the dog correctly or choose a good breeder, so while I may not agree with your generalized feelings toward pit bulls, I do think there is room to be concerned. Further, and more important, you have absolutely no obligation to ever expose yourself or your children to a situation which makes you feel nervous. Period end of story. I am a HUGE dog person and this was a battle I fought with my ILs over my BIL's rescue dog who growled at people who tried to take things away from her. She might be the nicest dog in the world--but she was not socialized to small children (DD#1 was 12 mos at the time and mobile and very dog aggressive since she lives with dogs) and if she was willing to growl at me who is to say she would not snap at my daughter? It was like they took it personally! It was mind boggling to me--I almost always lock my dogs up when people with small children come over--and when I don't, I am selective about which ones stay out and discuss it thoroughly with their parents.

On a side note--if you are going to be there for longer than a few hours, I do think you need to be prepared to find away to remove your kids so the dog can come out. The dog cannot just be indefinitely kenneled either. He will need to be exercised, etc, and it sounds like he needs to be socialized as much as possible.

Laura

[DmOrtega]

Puppies may be ok but I don't trust the breed at all. The dog will get older and more aggressive. It's fair to ask if they put the dog away when you are there but it is up to them to comply. Yes, you have every right to not allow the dog in your house or on your property.

[linsleyd]

You have every right to make the request to have the dog, no matter the age to be put somewhere if you are not comfortable. I have a big white german shepherd and people are scared of her. When we have people over, if I know in advance, she gets kenneled. I know she won't do anything but I'm also not going to take the chance.

As people say, she is a dog and has teeth so yes she can bite. Will she? Probably not, but not taking the chance.

If people come over without telling us and I can't put the dog somewhere, she'll either stay outside or the people coming over are aware of her and their feelings about her and are comfortable around her.

It's about being a responsible dog owner.

[beacooker]

I am one of those who defends pit bulls and believes strongly in condemning the breeders and owners, not the breed. It is possible to acquire well-bred pit bulls--responsible breeders put down any puppies who show even the slightest amount of aggression toward people and do their best to breed it out of the breed. However, in this case, you have not really provided us with a ringing endorsement of this family's ability to make sure they raise the dog correctly or choose a good breeder, so while I may not agree with your generalized feelings toward pit bulls, I do think there is room to be concerned.

Yes, I had meant to say that given the nephew's troubles at this time, and the fact that BIL's ex-wife has been behaving very irresponsibly in the last year, I don't at all trust that they were careful about the breeder, or will be diligent about making sure the dog is properly socialized.

And my kids are 3 and 5, so quite young.

[ljt2r]

I thought of one other piece of advice.... I realize that you are specifically more scared of pit bulls, and I also realize that, as we said, this family in particular may not have have done enough research to acquire that breed. But personally, speaking from experience, I think you should just say you are afraid of dogs (which you are, anyway), not the breed. It is upsetting--whether or not is should be :o --to those of us who own "questionable" breeds when people attack them. And I don't think you did, by the way, I don't mean to imply that. But why get into it at all? Just leave it at being afraid of dogs. I guess I am just thinking of all of the home owner's insurance and rentals I have been rejected from for owning a German Shepherd--whether or not it should, it makes me really mad and defensive. :mad: No point in introducing that into the mix, you know? Anyway I meant this as sincere advice for dealing with your BIL and his son, not to criticize whether or not you should be afraid of pit bulls.

Laura

[armel]

Or maybe say that you are scared of big dogs? I think my 10# dog would be less likely to scare you.

Having said that, I think it is more "scared of big dogs who haven't been properly trained and socialized." I am scared of them too. My neighbors got a rottweiler puppy. I was very worried, since my dog has been attacked twice by big dogs. It looks like my neighbors are doing a good job at socializing the puppy and training her.

If you don't think your nephew is doing those things. I would be worried too. I would rather be safe than very very sorry.

[ChristyMarie]

I am a huge dog person and I would never let me child go up to an unknown dog. Just isn't going to happen. And this is an unknown dog for you. However, I don't think the breed should be an issue (and I think they are more likely to take offense to your request if you make the breed an issue) but rather frame your request as not having your children around unknown dogs - of any age/breed.

And puppies tend to bite/snip more than adults - they don't know yet not to. Keep that in mind.

[funniegrrl]

Personally pit bulls scare the beejesus out of me. I live in a neighborhood where they are very popular, and I don't like it one bit.

I know the arguments: Any dog will turn agressive and bite -- and yes, goldens are just as prone as any other dog. A pit bull that has been raised properly and well-trained is as good a pet as any other dog. "Pit bull" is a catch-all term and isn't even a recognized breed. Etc. HOWEVER

Certain dog breeds were developed for certain characteristics -- retrieving, herding, whatever. Those types of dogs have an instinctual, genetic predisposition to do those things. Pit bulls have been bred for decades to be aggressive killers, and they have been bred for tenacity ("gameness"). When typical dogs get in a fight, one may submit and expose their belly/neck, signaling they give in. Most dogs will recognize this and stop. Pits will use the opportunity to chomp on the other dog's throat. They have advantages of weight and jaw strength that other dogs don't have, and they have an instict to ATTACK. Period. I'm sure you've heard about the woman who was attacked in her bed by two pits who entered her house. The owner of one (who was dog sitting the second) sounded like a somewhat responsible owner and that up until then these dogs "had been the sort of dogs you could leave your kids with." I agree that hating a certain breed is sort of a fashion ... it used to be Rottweilers, before that German Shepherds, etc. But that doesn't change the fact that the breed, as it stands right now, is unpredictably dangerous.

In the end, though, it doesn't matter if the dog in question was a chihuahua. If dogs make you nervous you have the right to ask that the dog be kept away. Add to that the fact that this is a dog that requires exquisite care in selection and training to give it a chance at being a safe pet, and this family does NOT sound like they have the wherewithal to provide that -- and you are doubly in your rights to ask that it be kept away.

[ljt2r]

I am a huge dog person and I would never let me child go up to an unknown dog. Just isn't going to happen. And this is an unknown dog for you. However, I don't think the breed should be an issue (and I think they are more likely to take offense to your request if you make the breed an issue) but rather frame your request as not having your children around unknown dogs - of any age/breed.

And puppies tend to bite/snip more than adults - they don't know yet not to. Keep that in mind.

You said this well. Honestly Armel I wouldn't even say "large dog," because even that can be irritating--I think of all of the small dogs who have tried to bite me, and I have never once been snapped at by a large dog. Just keep it to plain ole dogs. :)

Laura

[MrsReber]

I would ask for the dog to be put away and I would think BIL should be receptive to that. Has he owned dogs himself in the past? We always put our dogs away when we had company over simply because they become a nuisance to others. Not everyone likes having a big dog licking their feet while they're sitting in our living room. Yeah, gross- sometimes I don't like that very much either!

As for pit bulls- I would not let my child play with one. Our neighbors across the street from our previous house had one. He was great with her kids and we even dog sat when they were out of town, but that dog made me darn nervous. He was very territorial. While he may be docile with the residents of his house, he was not too keen on us coming around when they weren't home. I also had a co-worker who sort of adopted a pit bull puppy on her way home. She's an animal lover and was actually rescuing the poor thing. In any event, she brought him home and wanted to keep him. However, pit bulls have different characteristics and one thing she noticed was that those sharp puppy teeth combined with the amazing jaw strength was enough to tear through her work pants and destroy various other clothing items. The puppy was just playing. He also hurt her while playing because he simply locked onto things. He was not being mean in any way, he was just playing. Unfortunately, she couldn't keep him after various incidents like that and she brought him to a shelter. She checked every day to see if he was adopted (she wouldn't have let him be put down). Luckily, he was adopted.

But, uh,...where was I?? :o I agree, if you are not comfortable with the situation and do not feel it's appropriate for your children, then don't do it. Could you ask BIL beforehand or discuss it with him so he understands how you feel?

[avariell]

I don't think so. I feel the same way you do, Anne, about pit bulls. I know there are people who love them and say they're unfairly labelled, but seriously - while I strongly dislike blanket statements, I've never heard of a golden retriever tearing off the limbs of a child. :rolleyes:


i realize this is totally anecdotal but my SIL, who is a vet, says by far and away the meanest dogs in her clinic are golden retrievers! i was so surprised when she told me that. it made me chuckle to read your post :)

anyhoo - i pretty much agree with everything laura (ljt2r) said... so i don't have much to add :o
good luck with the situation and i hope someday you are able to welcome dogs back into your life :)

[armel]

Honestly Armel I wouldn't even say "large dog," because even that can be irritating--I think of all of the small dogs who have tried to bite me, and I have never once been snapped at by a large dog. Just keep it to plain ole dogs. :)

Laura

I agree they can be irritating. Small dogs can by nippy and I had one bite me once. But I'm not scared of small dogs even so. I was thinking that the "scared" part she described probably applied to large dogs and that she wouldn't be scared of a small dog. I'm sure some folks are scared of all dogs.

[beacooker]

Thanks very much for the input, everyone. It is helping me feel better about asking the dog to be put up. And to be fair to my BIL, in the past, BIL has always asked his son to put his dogs away (they have several) when people come over. But his son has never been thrilled about it, and I could understand that he might be loosening the rules slightly since his relationship with his son is so bad right now. But, if he doesn't do it, I will just ask him, and hope his son doesn't get too upset.


good luck with the situation and i hope someday you are able to welcome dogs back into your life :)

I have gotten much more open to dogs again, recently. I really like my parents Great Pyrenees - they are my kind of dog - there when you want them, yet happy to go lay in a corner and sleep if you don't feel like petting them. And when my kids get older and some of my cats pass away, I think I might like to get a Corgie. :)

[EllenL]

I'm not a dog owner but I do love dogs. I'm like a little kid when I see a dog, but fortunately I have enough self-control to ask the owner if it's okay to pet. But around my small neighborhood with just a half dozen dogs, it seems like the dogs' friendliness level is highly variable. Dogs whom the owners think are friendly sometimes get snappish, for no reason that we can discern. Some of these dogs had been rescue dogs who may have had a history of abuse, but some were raised as pups. The scariest incident was with a 180 pound English mastiff. We had always been kind of proud of not being scared of the dog just due to her size (her owner said she's a "gentle giant" and completely gentle) since no other neighbor will go near here. But when putting her from a minute or two, she suddenly got snappish. Scared us to death! So far the only dog who has been consistently friendly is a little Pekinese.

I realize dogs are creatures with moods and needs and not just a robot programmed to be friendly, but I really didn't encounter any unfriendly dogs as a kid. Was I just clueless? Or could it be possible that a lot of dogs' temperaments have changed, just reflecting the stress of today's world with too much stimuli and busyness---possibly because so many dogs are left alone for longer than they used to be?

[ljt2r]

I'm not a dog owner but I do love dogs. I'm like a little kid when I see a dog, but fortunately I have enough self-control to ask the owner if it's okay to pet. But around my small neighborhood with just a half dozen dogs, it seems like the dogs' friendliness level is highly variable. Dogs whom the owners think are friendly sometimes get snappish, for no reason that we can discern. Some of these dogs had been rescue dogs who may have had a history of abuse, but some were raised as pups. The scariest incident was with a 180 pound English mastiff. We had always been kind of proud of not being scared of the dog just due to her size (her owner said she's a "gentle giant" and completely gentle) since no other neighbor will go near here. But when putting her from a minute or two, she suddenly got snappish. Scared us to death! So far the only dog who has been consistently friendly is a little Pekinese.

I realize dogs are creatures with moods and needs and not just a robot programmed to be friendly, but I really didn't encounter any unfriendly dogs as a kid. Was I just clueless? Or could it be possible that a lot of dogs' temperaments have changed, just reflecting the stress of today's world with too much stimuli and busyness---possibly because so many dogs are left alone for longer than they used to be?

I think a lot of owners just aren't strong willed enough. They don't dominate their dogs enough. What did the owner do when the mastiff got snippy with you? I grew up with mastiffs, it's a shame you had a negative experience. If my dogs got snippy with a stranger (or anyone) there would be h*ll to pay. Big Time.

I also think a lot of people are not discriminating enough with breeders/how they acquire their dogs.

[EllenL]

Actually, he didn't do much with the mastiff. It took a lot of energy to pull it away. Then he was apologetic and embarassed with us, but didn't really even say anything to do her. We live in a small complex geared for active seniors. There's no size restrictions for dogs, but a lot of the neighbors aren't thrilled with the mastiff being here, so I guess the owner's main concern was that we weren't too upset. The next day he said that he was trying to figure out what would have gotten the dog upset---he thought it was the noise from the landscapers (who had been there a few hours earlier, but not right then).

You may be right about owners not expending the energy to followthrough with discipline. We had neighbors who had a "dog whisperer" come to the home and one who sent her do to a two week boot camp, but neither dog was any different with the owners, although supposedly they did very well with a professional. It did seem like the owners just expected a "perfect" dog who would always behave after the professional got done, without giving the dog any feedback or consequences.

[avariell]

Actually, he didn't do much with the mastiff. It took a lot of energy to pull it away. Then he was apologetic and embarassed with us, but didn't really even say anything to do her. We live in a small complex geared for active seniors. There's no size restrictions for dogs, but a lot of the neighbors aren't thrilled with the mastiff being here, so I guess the owner's main concern was that we weren't too upset.

that stinks about the mastiff. laura is right about our experience growing up - they were the most wonderful dogs to be raised around. i think someday when i have kids, i will have a mastiff because they are the most awesome kid dogs imho :)

[ChristyMarie]

You may be right about owners not expending the energy to followthrough with discipline.

My dog trainer had a great saying, "dogs don't fail obedience training, owners do." :)

(obviously some rescued dogs or other with special needs are going to be a little too *off* to rehabilitate)

[BaileyJune]

Puppies may be ok but I don't trust the breed at all. The dog will get older and more aggressive.

This is not always the case. Like anything else, it just depends on the dog. I've never been a pit bull lover, but my brother took in a stray when it was less than a year old. Now 6, it is the sweetest, most gentle dog I've ever met.

I agree with those who said that you should never put your child in a situation that makes you uncomfortable, no matter what kind of dog is involved. ANY dog (or cat or other animal) when scared or cornerned or hurt or threatened can and often does become vicious. Don't take chances.

[Gumbeaux]

.... but seriously - while I strongly dislike blanket statements, I've never heard of a golden retriever tearing off the limbs of a child. :rolleyes:

Yep, because they are docile, intelligent, and easily trained, they are a breed that is often used as seeing eye dogs, therapy dogs, rescue dogs, and hunting dogs.

[Debralynn]

pit bulls are banned in many cities, and they should be banned in MORE cities!!!

[Debralynn]

Banning of pit bulls
MORE THAN 66 PEOPLE HAVE DIED IN THE US FROM PIT BULLS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This table shows places where Pit Bulls have been banned or where bans were proposed.

[edit] Global
Place Status Type Date Banned Details
Ontario, Canada[5] Active Province August 29, 2005 Pit bulls are not allowed to be imported into or brought through Ontario. Severe fines are in place for bringing new pit bulls into Ontario. Pit bulls owned prior to August 29, 2005 are grandfathered in. All grandfathered pit bulls of over 36 weeks of age are required to be sterilized immediately. Grandfathered pit bulls must be muzzled and leashed on a leash of less than 1.8 metres while in public. Sale of non-grandfathered pit bulls to denizens of Ontario is illegal.
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada[6] Active City 1990
Australia Active Country March 10, 2006 Legislation and implimentation dates varies across the different states, but here is the start of a list of the legislation in the various states: New South Wales[7], Victoria[8], Western Australia[9], Queensland[10], Australian Capital Territory, Northern Territory, South Australia, Tasmania.
France[11] Active Country April 30, 1999 Ownership restricted; non-pure-breed animals resembling pit-bulls are to be surgically neutered
Norway Active Country 1991
United Kingdom[12] Active Country August 12, 1991 Banned in public places, under the Dangerous Dogs Act 1991
New Zealand Active Country Must be microchipped, muzzled in public, and cannot be publicly advertised for sale

[edit] United States
Place Status Type Date Details
Delta, Utah[13] Active City
Springville, Utah[14] Active City
Miami-Dade County, Florida[15] Active County 1989 Section 5 Code 17: "It is illegal in Miami-Dade County to own any dog which substantially conforms to a pit bull breed dog, unless it was specially registered with Miami-Dade County prior to 1989. Acquisition or keeping of a pit bull dog: $500.00 fine and County Court action to force the removal of the animal from Miami-Dade County."
Council Bluffs, Iowa[16] Active City 2004
Royal City, Washington[17] Active City January 12, 2007
Denver, Colorado[18] Active City 9 May 2005 First banned in 1980s, but later revoked
Prince George's County, Maryland[19] Active City 1996
Yonkers, NY Active City November 3, 2006
Springfield, Missouri[20] Active City April 17, 2006
Oklahoma[21] Proposed State June 21, 2005
Shelbyville, California[22] Proposed City November 18, 2006
New York City, NY[23] Proposed City December 28, 2006
Aurora, Colorado[24] Proposed City September 27, 2005
Youngstown, Ohio[25] Proposed City January 10, 1999
Richland, Washington[17] Proposed City December 21, 2006
Tupelo, Mississippi[26] Proposed City September 28, 2006
Parker, Colorado[27] Proposed City January 17, 2006
Chicago, Illinois[28] Proposed City November 17, 2005

[charley]

We have friends who've had a pit bull for the past 5 years. Have always been told he's sweet as can be. I've never met him and don't care to. Heard that he has recently started to exhibit aggressive tendencies on regular walks through the neighborhood. I think the tendency to violence is more deep-rooted than some care to admit.

Go with your instincts!!!

[DebGo]

yes you have every right and should explain and then ask bil to put the dog away. if hes not willing to do it then i would apologize and leave (not angrily mind you). hopefully he understands your situation.

yes, we've all heard the argument that not ALL pit bulls are aggressive. well possibly this is true. ever taken a tour of your local animal shelter. DD was taking a class and we had a tour a couple months back. want to know how many of the dogs were pit bulls or pit bull mixes??? oh -- close to all of them. :eek: and there were a lot of dogs in the shelter at the time.

on a side note. neighbors who are renting (we live on a small cul-de-sac) started raising pit bulls in their UNFENCED yard. i was at the house next door enjoying a glass of wine on their deck when i happen to see the VERY pregnant mama pit bull. i began to think of all she would do to protect her young (as any good mama should ;) ). the very next day i called the homeowner (not an easy feat either -- i didn't personally know the man and had to track him down 800 miles away). the following morning after we spoke i watched through the upstairs window (yes peeking! :D ) as the renters tore down the shelter and removed the pit bulls. did i feel bad?? HECK NO. just doing what any good mama would do to protect her young... (mine are 3 & 5) ;)

[Robyncz]

1. You have the absolute right (not to mention responsibility) to protect your kids. I would talk up front about the situation--saying something along the lines of the following, "I'm uncomfortable having my kids around dogs. It would be great if you could keep the dog in another room or outside while we're there. If that won't work, why don't we just meet somewhere else." And if it's a problem for BIL, don't go there. End of negotiation.

2. I do not believe that pit bulls are more likely to be agressive than other breeds of dog. HOWEVER I do believe that they are way more dangerous than other breeds when they *are* aggressive because they are so much stronger, and because of the way their jaws clamp shut (they can't be pried open). In addition, because of their strength, stupid people (e.g., That guy Vicks and/or his friends) train some pit bulls to be aggressive--and I don't think there's any way to undo it once it's been done.

Everyone's got an anecdote. Here's mine. We adopted the sweetest pit bull mix puppy from a rescue group 15 years ago. We had to have her put to sleep for health reasons this spring, but over those 15 years, she never showed a bit of agression to anyone. We were cautious when we had our first baby 7 years ago, because we had no idea how she would react, but she was great--while our kids were babies and as they grew. Even at the end of her life, when she was uncomfortable much of the time, she never snapped or growled at anyone.

On the other hand, when I was growing up, my stepmother had an evil little Llasa Opsa (sp). That was one aggressive little dog. She nipped at me all the time, and bit me several times, too. Eventually, she even turned on my stepmother. According to my vet, more Llasas are agressive than pit bulls, BUT they're not nearly as dangerous because of their size and relative strength. And because there aren't huge criminal rings breeding them to fight to the death. . .

[Kayaksoup]

Banning of pit bulls
MORE THAN 66 PEOPLE HAVE DIED IN THE US FROM PIT BULLS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!




Oh my god!!
66 people, that is insane. I have a sudden fear of pit bulls.... Wait, how many people in the US died from being hit by cars? Maybe we should ban those too...

Seriously, to the OP, I was a dog bite victim (17 stitches to the face) and can empathize with your fears. I would be up front and tell your BIL that you aren't comfortable with the dogs loose. I probably wouldn't make it a breed issue, though.

[ChristyMarie]

pit bulls are banned in many cities, and they should be banned in MORE cities!!!

Perhaps you should read your signature again.:rolleyes:

[beacooker]

I'm not sure I have much of a choice about making it a breed issue, though. The family has had several other dogs - a few labs, and some kind of mixed breed dog that they got recently as a stray. The labs are older and have been in the family for some time, and I never have had any fears about them. The mixed breed dog has only been in the family about a year or so, and is about 30-40 lbs, and I am not comfortable with that dog, and tend to avoid it. My kids usually avoid dogs also, unless I encourage them to pet them, so even if the dog did end up coming out for a bit while we were at their house, I wasn't too concerned, I just kept a watchful eye. But if the dog was on one side of the room and my kids on the other, I wasn't worried.

With the pit bull, part of my fear is that at while BIL does always ask his son to put his dogs up when people come over, at some point, the son almost always lets them out. Sometimes just for a quick trip outside, but unless my BIL notices and tells him to put them away right away, the dogs often are out for quite a while. As I said above, with the mixed dog that I don't really trust, I at least feel reasonably comfortable that as long as someone isn't messing with him, he won't attack them. With a pit bull, from the stories I've heard, it sounds like they will sometimes attack someone who is not doing anything to them, so I don't even want to be in the same room as the dog. So, I have the feeling the breed issue will come up. But, since it isn't BIL's dog and he wasn't the one who got it for his son, I'm hoping he doesn't mind.

[do-lolly]

i realize this is totally anecdotal but my SIL, who is a vet, says by far and away the meanest dogs in her clinic are golden retrievers! i was so surprised when she told me that. it made me chuckle to read your post :)



That's funny, my sister, a vet as well, says that she hates to see Chows or Chihuahuas come through the door. She says most of the Pits are pretty sweet.

I agree with just telling them that you are afraid of dogs, not the breed.

Oops, I just read your response above. Maybe you could just lie and say that one of your kids has just developed a strong fear of dogs. You could say that you don't know why, but maybe it's just a phase they will eventually grow out of. People tend to cut children a little slack when they have fears.

[avariell]

Oh my god!!
66 people, that is insane. I have a sudden fear of pit bulls.... Wait, how many people in the US died from being hit by cars? Maybe we should ban those too...



i think i'll take my chances with a pitbull over a gazillion other things :rolleyes: ... great point kayaksoup!

[ljt2r]

debralynn--this was a pretty pleasant thread until you started. You didn't even respond to the OP! I agree, look at your signature and don't turn this into an argument about pit bulls.

beacooker... well I hate to encourage you to be MORE afraid :o of any dog, but really, logically, it is crazy you would trust a street dog over a puppy pit bull. You have no idea what that dog has encountered in his life and/or what might set him off. I would encourage you to ask that dog be locked up as well, since dogs make you nervous in general. I agree with whoever said to just say your child has developed a more intense fear of ALL dogs.

As to your nephew (is he your nephew?) letting the dogs out... is this to go to the bathroom and/or exercise or do they just stay out in the general living area (i.e., wherever you are)? I think I mentioned in my first post that I do think as a guest you can't expect the dogs to be locked up all weekend long. If that is a problem, I think you should just not go--and let me be clear, your BIL should NOT be offended that you do not. I also think that if your BIL cannot control his kid and his dogs any better than that (i.e., if the dogs stay out around you) than I would have trouble letting my kids be around any of his dogs--and I say that for myself, not just for you, who are afraid of dogs. It does not sound like discipline of any sort is a top priority.

PS I don't know anything about you (i.e., I am sorry if you don't have a SO and I didn't realize :o) so I was wondering--is this your SO's brother? What does your SO think? Or what does your children's father think? Or are you even a woman? :o :o Yikes, I think you know what I am trying to ask, at any rate.... :)

[beacooker]

ljt2r, LOL, yes, I am a woman, and this is my DH's brother. DH...well, he tends to think I over-worry about things, which he is right about in general, and he also tends to not like to make waves. That, and he gets distracted when we are at parties with his family. I do think this is an issue I am going to be very firm with him on that he needs to stay on top of, though.

And as far as the stray dog, like I said, I keep a close eye on the dog, and my kids don't go around him. The closest they get is the other side of the room. He is only 30'ish pounds and pretty lanky, so in the event he did go after one of my kids, I don't think he would be able to inflict anywhere near the sort of damage a pit bull could. And I always try to position myself so I am in between the dog and them.

Just to add more here ;), one thing I struggle with is how to protect my kids, deal with my fear of dogs, and not transfer my fear to them. I suspect they pick up on my fear, and that I'm always hovering close by when they interact with a dog, or in the case of the stray dog, leading them away. And it is getting harder with my 5-year old, as naturally, as he gets older, he is not always directly in my sight when we are at parties. He is naturally very fearful of animals, and like I said above, he's scared to death of my parent's kitten. I've resisted so far telling him that I don't want him to ever be in a room with a certain dog, but I'm considering it both with the pit bull and the stray. Bad idea?

[avariell]

Just to add more here ;), one thing I struggle with is how to protect my kids, deal with my fear of dogs, and not transfer my fear to them. I suspect they pick up on my fear, and that I'm always hovering close by when they interact with a dog, or in the case of the stray dog, leading them away. And it is getting harder with my 5-year old, as naturally, as he gets older, he is not always directly in my sight when we are at parties. He is naturally very fearful of animals, and like I said above, he's scared to death of my parent's kitten. I've resisted so far telling him that I don't want him to ever be in a room with a certain dog, but I'm considering it both with the pit bull and the stray. Bad idea?

beacooker - i think you should give yourself credit for trying to find a win-win solution to this problem. i do think that you could use this as a learning experience for your children - they should be taught that an unknown ANIMAL (or heck, even person) could be a potential risk. at no time should a person approach a dog without asking the dog's owner first. if the owner isn't around, then i wouldn't pet it.

dogs (like cats and people and probably rats and birds) all have different personalities. one of my dogs would lick your kids half to death, and my other dog would growl and try to get as far away from them as possible. i don't know that i would bother telling them to stay away from a particular dog, especially when that dog hasn't necessarily given you a reason to do so. but if say your neighbor had a dog that the owner said hates strangers (like my 2nd dog), i would explain to your child that that animal is scared of strangers and should be left alone.

personally with my neighbor children, i am very clear in explaining that my 2nd dog does not mean them harm, but he is terrified of strangers. it goes on from there - they often ask questions but are usually impressed (if that is the right word) that my dog has emotions that might be similar to theirs. i think they end up respecting his space more because of it. and before anyone says that i should have my dog trained better, trust me i have been down that road, and now i just keep him away from people.

anyway, good luck with the situation. i feel like dogs were one of the highlights of my childhood, so hopefully your children can have some wonderful dog experiences :)

[kcmo727]

Just to add more here ;), one thing I struggle with is how to protect my kids, deal with my fear of dogs, and not transfer my fear to them. I suspect they pick up on my fear, and that I'm always hovering close by when they interact with a dog, or in the case of the stray dog, leading them away. And it is getting harder with my 5-year old, as naturally, as he gets older, he is not always directly in my sight when we are at parties. He is naturally very fearful of animals, and like I said above, he's scared to death of my parent's kitten. I've resisted so far telling him that I don't want him to ever be in a room with a certain dog, but I'm considering it both with the pit bull and the stray. Bad idea?


I feel bad that you have a fear of dogs (any kind of deep seated fear is difficult to deal with. For me, it is flying) and that the only dogs available for you to be around are dogs with unknown history/bad breed reputation. My uncle and his dog were attacked by a pit bull when I was a child. It was terrible, although they both survived. Even with this experience, I tend to side on judging the dog rather than the breed. The vicious pit bulls that we hear about have been raised in a vicious manner. Honestly, the pit bulls I have come into contact with have been sweet, even submissive.

That said, I would keep my kids away from dogs that you do not have a comfort level with. Simple as that. But I would for sure expose your kids to dogs that are gentle and sweet so that they don't inherit your fear. If you have a friend with a nice, trustworthy dog, ask if they would bring the dog to your house to play with your kids. Let the friend monitor the interaction since you would probably be too nervous to do so and your children would pick up on your fear.

I agree with avariell, that dogs are a highlight of life, during childhood and beyond. My dogs bring me a great level of comfort. After a tiring day with my children I love to sit with my dogs on the couch and just snuggle. It brings me peace and comfort.

If you ever do get your own dog, I hate to say this but I would not get a corgi. I worked at a vet's office and many of the corgi's were snappy and aggressive. My apologies to anyone with a lovely corgi, but this thread is about breeds in general. Consider a shelter dog -- these dogs have been tested for aggression and shelter workers can usually tell you if a dog would be good with kids. My shelter dogs are amazingly good with my kids. Good luck!

[PamN]

It might help in the long run if you AND your children learned more about dog behavior and how to comport yourselves around dogs. I'd recommend a good book or two from the library -- maybe Cesar Millan's, which as much about training people as it is about training dogs.

Staring at the dog is a challenge to the dog, so avoid eye contact. You should stand and walk in a calm confident manner, like you are royalty and the rest of the world is your domain. Totally ignore the dog as much as possible. You'll be able to see if the dog approaches you out of the corner of your eye. If the dog walks up in a relaxed manner and starts to sniff you -- that's how they figure out who you are, so continue to ignore them.

For children, it's a hard thing to learn, but they should *never* make sharp swift movements or run away from the dog. Running activates the dog's chase instincts. My dog would assume it's a game and try to catch you to lick your ears, but he could still knock you over in his enthusiasm. Running away is a serious trigger for an aggressive dog.

If your children are playing quietly, a dog will likely ignore them or, at the most, briefly investigate, but loud boistrous play will excite the dog, even if it's in another room.

One thing you might consider is a session or two with a good dog trainer in your area. Explain your fear and ask for a session with one of his friendly, obedient charges. Maybe you could have a session first, and then another with your children? The trainer could give you tips on how to greet a dog for the first time, how to behave around dogs and give you feedback on your own body language. You'd feel more confident in a controlled atmosphere like that, and your children would, too.

[beacooker]

It might help in the long run if you AND your children learned more about dog behavior and how to comport yourselves around dogs. I'd recommend a good book or two from the library -- maybe Cesar Millan's, which as much about training people as it is about training dogs.

I really do know a lot about the 'right' way to act with dogs - I was raised with them and worked in an animal hospital for many years. But thats part of what scares me about dogs - feeling like I have to act the 'right' way or they will eat me for lunch. :eek: I don't need that kind of pressure!!

Michelle (kcmo727) - I do (and my kids do) get to be around several dogs that I have no fear of. A golden retriever, a lab, a beagle, and 2 Great Pyrenees that scared the heck out of me when I first met them, but now I feel about as comfortable with them as I can, given their enormous size. But I never forget they could kill me if they wanted to. :eek: again

That is interesting about corgie's - I haven't really researched them much yet, but I thought what I'd read indicated they were a good family dog. I think my plan would be to go through a rescue organization, so hopefully the dog would have been tested for temperament.

[hlao23]

If you ever do get your own dog, I hate to say this but I would not get a corgi. I worked at a vet's office and many of the corgi's were snappy and aggressive. My apologies to anyone with a lovely corgi, but this thread is about breeds in general.

I was going to say the same thing. My parents dog is a Corgi mix (with Bassett) and he is not aggressive per se but is prone to snapping. I've heard it's common to Corgis

[BeachBum]

To the OP
I would call your nephew instead of BIL and ask him (or ask him when you arrive) to please put the dog away. I would tell them that you are afraid of dogs and you don't want DC around unknown dogs.
I think this removes the power struggle between BIL and nephew, and shows a bit of respect/treating like a grown up to your 14yr old nephew who might be feeling a bit powerless with all that has gone on.

[Debralynn]

Live and let live!!! ( just keep your pit bull away from me. :) )

[mcgeiger]

Dogs that make me nervous when I see them walk in a door...
chows
shar pei
chihuahua
rat terriers
corgis
cocker spaniels

dogs that I generally like that people find surprising
rotties
german shepards
LOVE pit bulls
dobies

as to the OP--didn't have time to read whole thread, and I haven't had more than 6 hours of sleep a night for the last week, but by all means if you are uncomfortable protect yourself and children

FWIW
I have an article where a minature dachsund killed a child
more people were bitten by labs than any other breed
I feel strongly enough that NO breed should be banned that I fought (and won) against breed bans where I used to live
the ONLY dog bite I have received in 7 years in veterinary medicine was a dachsund

[ljt2r]

To the OP
I would call your nephew instead of BIL and ask him (or ask him when you arrive) to please put the dog away. I would tell them that you are afraid of dogs and you don't want DC around unknown dogs.
I think this removes the power struggle between BIL and nephew, and shows a bit of respect/treating like a grown up to your 14yr old nephew who might be feeling a bit powerless with all that has gone on.

Hey that's good advice, I had not thought of that.

[ljt2r]

Dogs that make me nervous when I see them walk in a door...
chows
shar pei
chihuahua
rat terriers
corgis
cocker spaniels

dogs that I generally like that people find surprising
rotties
german shepards
LOVE pit bulls
dobies

as to the OP--didn't have time to read whole thread, and I haven't had more than 6 hours of sleep a night for the last week, but by all means if you are uncomfortable protect yourself and children

FWIW
I have an article where a minature dachsund killed a child
more people were bitten by labs than any other breed
I feel strongly enough that NO breed should be banned that I fought (and won) against breed bans where I used to live
the ONLY dog bite I have received in 7 years in veterinary medicine was a dachsund

I strongly feel that Cocker Spaniels have been overbred. That is a breed where I believe you MUST go to a responsible breeder, bc so many of them seem to be psycho. Of course is probably true of all breeds. But the irresponsible overbreeding (labs, spaniels, etc) is a real problem with those popular and supposedly safe breeds, IMHO. And can I just say that in addition to nearly being bitten as a child by 2 different Cocker Spaniels, the other, as an adult, was a miniature dachsund where the owner patted him afterwards and poo poo'd it, telling me I had gotten too close! Psycho owners, THAT's what we all need protection from!

[beacooker]

BeachBum, that is a really good idea. I hadn't thought of that. I can't really call him ahead of time, for various reasons, but if he is there, I will definitely try to enlist him. I also told DH tonight how nervous I am about possibly seeing the dog this weekend, and he immediately stepped up and said I didn't have to worry about it, he would take care of it. :)

[ljt2r]

BeachBum, that is a really good idea. I hadn't thought of that. I can't really call him ahead of time, for various reasons, but if he is there, I will definitely try to enlist him. I also told DH tonight how nervous I am about possibly seeing the dog this weekend, and he immediately stepped up and said I didn't have to worry about it, he would take care of it. :)

That's good. my DH is similar to how you described yours in an earlier post and I was very frustrated when I had to take the lead involving BIL's rescue dog.

[mgs]

My neice was attacked by a lab when she was 4 - bitten in the face and I had a friend who was attacked by her pet cat.

I am a huge animal lover - all types - My feeling is an animal is an amimal. They can be socialized all we want but they are still animals. You really have to be careful of them. They are unpredictable. The bigger they are, the worse the bite just makes more sense = law of gross tonage. :-) I am hypervigilant around all animals. We have 2 cats and now a toddler and you better believe I try not to leave them in the same room together and won't for several more years. My cats are the friendliest and most mellow cats out there, but they are still animals.

You have every right to protect your family. I really like the idea of talking to your nephew about it. then he will start learn to take responsibility for the dog and probably won't feel as 'put out' by the request.

Good luck, hope it works out and the weekend is fun.

Meg

[avariell]

I strongly feel that Cocker Spaniels have been overbred. That is a breed where I believe you MUST go to a responsible breeder, bc so many of them seem to be psycho. Of course is probably true of all breeds. But the irresponsible overbreeding (labs, spaniels, etc) is a real problem with those popular and supposedly safe breeds, IMHO. And can I just say that in addition to nearly being bitten as a child by 2 different Cocker Spaniels, the other, as an adult, was a miniature dachsund where the owner patted him afterwards and poo poo'd it, telling me I had gotten too close! Psycho owners, THAT's what we all need protection from!

i think this is probably why our SIL has noticed an increase in grumpy goldens - they have been over-bred by irresponsible people. ugh. bad breeders should be the ones banned from cities.