Help from parents over disciplin!

[cminmd]

I have a situation that I think needs punishment and my husband does not. I was hoping to get some other ideas to see if I am being too hard or if this is just one of those things.

My son has a DS. (I know, DS has a nintendo DS!)
He let his sister play with it while he was doing something else. We have a rule that it is good manners to let someone borrow something if you are not using it. It would be ok of him to say no if he were using it, but since he had finished playing once the game came on it is our expectation that she should be allowed to play. So that is the set up.
DD is sitting on the couch playing while he is watching football with my husband. While dh was up letting the dog out, (so we don't know exactly what happened) they start fighting over the DS. He wanted to show her something- she didn't want him to show her- long story short- they tore the screen off of the top of the DS.
I am so furious that I could kill the both of them- talk about King Solomon and the baby!
This is why I hate getting kids things like DS, XBox, cameras, mp3 players- they just destroy stuff that costs real money. I know I break stuff, but at least when I break it I buy it where as they break and and I buy it.
If it was her DS I would just say tough cookies, but what makes this hard for me is that she broke something of his. I guess I think she is more to blame because if someone lets you borrow something and wants it back, you should give it back. Not start a wrestling match. She also has a bad habit being very rough on things and also of asking you for help but then not letting you touch what it is when you try to fix it. I have had a very similar situation when she wants help editing a paper for school on the computer.
I think we should punish DD. Either by making her do his chores or by taking away something of value to her. Between the cost of the DS player and games that is about 300 dollars of totally worthless stuff in our house now.
Unfortunately, we are financially unable to replace the DS. We are already very stretched for money and couldn't replace it even if we wanted to. What do you think?

[sneezles]

If it was her DS I would just say tough cookies, but what makes this hard for me is that she broke something of his. I guess I think she is more to blame because if someone lets you borrow something and wants it back, you should give it back. Not start a wrestling match. She also has a bad habit being very rough on things and also of asking you for help but then not letting you touch what it is when you try to fix it. I have had a very similar situation when she wants help editing a paper for school on the computer.



While I understand about your DD being partly responsible I don't think you should punish just her. And I quite disagree that she's more to blame because your DS wanted it back. She didn't want to be shown and you DS should have let it go at that not forced the issue. If there is going to be consequences then both should suffer something.

Can the thing be repaired and could your DD work for half the cost and your DS the other half?

[Beth]

I agree that it sounds like DS was as much to balme as DS and shouldn't be subject to greater discpline than DS just because the thing they destroyed was his.

If your pattern has been to just go out and replace whatever gets broken, then they aren't learning. Maybe not having the DS or either of them being able to play games is the obvious consequence. If it's going to get replaced, I think they should both have to earn the money to replace it. That's my initial thoughts at least.

[cminmd]

I guess I blame her more because when you borrow something from someone you are obligated to give it back in the same condition. She didn't give it back in the same condition so that is her fault.
I think if he wants it back, she should give it back. It doesn't matter that she didn't want to give it back, when something isn't yours you should return it when asked for it. If I borrow a lawn mower from my neighbor and they ask for it back so they can do their lawn, I return it. I don't tell them "make me" or "sorry, I need to mow my backyard first!" I just return it. If I want to mow on my schedule then I should buy my own mower. He shouldn't have to fight her to get his own game back. The only thing I blame him for is for not coming and telling us that she wouldn't give it back- but I also feel somewhat responsible for his not coming to us because we keep telling them to settle things themselves and to not be tattle tales so I could see that he would think he shouldn't come to us.
We don't replace stuff they break, but this is the first time that they have broken something that exclusively belongs to the other one. When they were little, almost everything they owned was theirs together so when they broke something they were both out. The only other thing I can think of is headphones- they often break their headphones by leaving them on the floor where they get stepped on, but when they get broken we make them buy a new pair with their own money. We havn't had a situation where they broke the others persons headphones, but if they did we would just switch the headphones so the kid that broke them has the broken pair. We have never had a situation like this where something belonging only to one is broke primarily by the other.

[sneezles]

While I agree with your scenario on your neighbor's lawnmower it doesn't quite equate with the borrowed gaming system. She should have been allowed to play till the end of her game. Your DS interrupted by trying to show her something. If he had asked for it back because he wanted to play for himself and not show her then I agree it should have been returned when he asked.

Also while she may have a history it shouldn't really play in to this situation since your DS didn't want it back to play but to demonstrate. I'm sure he didn't just ask but may have actually tried to take it from her when the struggle ensued and the game damaged.

I still think the game can be repaired and the cost of the repairs divided between them. I think equally but in the end it's your decision.

[gertdog]

My take would be that it took two of them to pull hard enough in opposite directions to tear the top of the screen off, so they're both to blame for the actual damage.

I guess I don't agree completely that one should be obligated to give something back *immediately* when the person you borrowed it from asks for it- especially when you're talking about siblings sharing toys. I think it's reasonable to allow the person to finish their game or play session or adhere to some pre-determined time limit (my parents often imposed this on my sister and I to preempt arguments- I'd often let my sister "borrow" something and then make her give it back arbitrarily a few minutes later just to be bossy :o ). In this case, it sounds from your description like DS was the one who interrupted your DD's play, and if that's the way it happened, I think DS is actually more at fault for instigating the struggle.

I can understand your frustration over an expensive toy being broken, but given your description I think the loss of the toy is probably punishment enough- if DS wants another, I'd make them both contribute part of their allowance (or whatever) for however long it takes to save enough- even if it takes a loooong time. Good lesson for both of them, and by the time he's saved enough DS may not even still want another one, but may choose to use the money for something else.

[Kristilyn1]

yes, I agree with your assertion that things need to returned in the condition in which they are borrowed---but since she had possession of the toy---the only way it could have been broken (in this case) is by the son trying to forcefully take it away. Meaning she had it, he wanted it, he had to instigate the physical struggle. If the situation was reversed he had it, she wanted it, then SHE would have instigated the physical struggle. Yes, maybe a punishment *could* be in store for not returning it when it was requested--but it totally sounds like brother was being bossy about it and didn't actually want it to play it, he just wanted to make her let him in on the game she was playing----very different.

I agree that the natural consequence of this is now there is no more Nintendo DS. I would add the caveat that for me there would *never* be another DS, unless they saved the money EQUALLY and bought a new one. I realize that right now you can't afford to replace it, but I don't think you should even if you can down the road. They've both cut off their noses to spite their faces and I think this is an unfortunately painful way to learn the very basic lesson of what happens when you fight physically over a toy.

I agree, they both are pretty equal in the fault department, though I lean more in the brother's case of being at fault. I mean using your neighbor and the lawnmower example. What if you were in the middle of mowing your lawn and he asked for it back, you said "hey, can I just finish this row?" and he says "no!" grabs it away from you and you struggle over it and end up breaking it. Is it your fault completely because you borrowed it?

Kristi

[Kathy B]

We have a rule that it is good manners to let someone borrow something if you are not using it. It would be ok of him to say no if he were using it, but since he had finished playing once the game came on it is our expectation that she should be allowed to play. So that is the set up.


This part makes me take a more lenient attitude with your DS. If it is a rule/expectation that he must let her use it if he is not using it, even though it is HIS, then he isn't necessarily letting her use it willingly. In which case it would be understandable that if he didn't REALLY want her to use it, felt that maybe she was doing something wrong or incorrectly (whether she was or not), wanted to show her and tried to take it when she resisted.....well it seems a little understandable to me.

I don't know that he is less at fault, but what IS he allowed to do in that situation? ESPECIALLY if your DD is known for acting in the way you described. That particular rule may be setting them up for these kinds of things to happen. He sees it as HIS toy, she looks at it that it doesn't matter...he HAS to share it, and she feels free to do what she wants with it. Just something to think about.....

[BucknellAlum]

I do tend to agree that both kids are responsible for the broken DS.

Another way to think about it: How would you react if DS's friend was playing with it, and DS leaned over to show his friend something, and then the same struggle ensued? Would you not hold your DS at least partially responsible?

[sneezles]

This part makes me take a more lenient attitude with your DS. If it is a rule/expectation that he must let her use it if he is not using it, even though it is HIS, then he isn't necessarily letting her use it willingly. In which case it would be understandable that if he didn't REALLY want her to use it, felt that maybe she was doing something wrong or incorrectly (whether she was or not), wanted to show her and tried to take it when she resisted.....well it seems a little understandable to me.

I don't know that he is less at fault, but what IS he allowed to do in that situation? ESPECIALLY if your DD is known for acting in the way you described. That particular rule may be setting them up for these kinds of things to happen. He sees it as HIS toy, she looks at it that it doesn't matter...he HAS to share it, and she feels free to do what she wants with it. Just something to think about.....

Okay, your reply made me think of a neighbor I had that had one child and would never have another child and she taught her son that he didn't have to share if he didn't want to?!?!?!? Okay if your child is never going to encounter another child while playing but let's get real! He can play for as long as he wants but when he "lets" his sister play it's at his discretion when to stop her play time? Sorry but parameters have to be set so that the owner can't renig on the play in 5 or 10 minutes. And who cares but DS that she's not doing it the right way?!?!?

Do you not think the DD may act out because the DS has renigged on the share time, been bossy about how she can use/play?

Do I sound like I have unresolved issues?:p :o

[Kathy B]

We gave our kids the option of putting things away that they did not want to share with other kids that came over. Anything that was left out was fair game, but they were not required to let their friends play with all of their stuff. Usually what got put away was the big stuff (like an electronic game or an American Girl doll, etc....). Trust me, there was still plenty of stuff to choose from for their friends.

One example...when DS got his own CD player and headset, he was not required to let his sister use it, and he rarely did. But occasionally he would, and it was his choice. If you are obligated to share it with your sibling, is it really yours? Or does it belong to both of you?

[TKay]

My take would be that it took two of them to pull hard enough in opposite directions to tear the top of the screen off, so they're both to blame for the actual damage.

I guess I don't agree completely that one should be obligated to give something back *immediately* when the person you borrowed it from asks for it- especially when you're talking about siblings sharing toys. I think it's reasonable to allow the person to finish their game or play session or adhere to some pre-determined time limit (my parents often imposed this on my sister and I to preempt arguments- I'd often let my sister "borrow" something and then make her give it back arbitrarily a few minutes later just to be bossy :o ). In this case, it sounds from your description like DS was the one who interrupted your DD's play, and if that's the way it happened, I think DS is actually more at fault for instigating the struggle.
.

I tend to agree with Gertdog on this one. If you are truly sharing, you don't yank a toy away just because you can. You let the other kid have their turn. I'm not sure I have the answer, but that's what stuck out for me.

Sorry about the broken system. That is really frustrating. Let us know what you decide to do and how it turns out.

[Gecko]

I try to encourage my girls to share as well because it is a nice thing to do, but I do not force them to do so. I find that no one takes care of your possessions like you do and we have also had upsets here when something is not reurned in the same condition as it was lent.

It sounds as though you DS got bored with the football game he was watching and started looking for entertainment elsewhere. It would seem that your DD was quite happy with how she was playing and he thought he could do better. It does not sound as though she asked for his help, nor did she want to hand over the Nintendo so he could show her anything. If this was the case then he would have had to physically force it from her and this is how it was broken. If the rule is that he must lend it when he is not using it, then surely he must not be able to just take it back whenever he feels like it, whether he thinks that he knows more about the game or not. If he felt that she was damaging his Nintendo then he should have told either you or your DH immediately. However, if she was not hurting his toy, then it is really none of his business how she plays the games, and unless she asked for his assistance he should have let her finish the game.

I actually think that you son is marginally more to blame than your daughter. I certainly wouldn't punish just your DD.

[kim21]

What a dilemma. So sorry that I have not read through all of the responses, and undoubtedly, you've received good advice. You've entitled your thread in regards to discipline, yet you're discussing punishment.

Is it helpful to think of these two terms from different perspectives? Discipline might be considered as the means for teaching...teaching the child to be right....be right with one another, their own and each other's belongings, other people, the universe as a whole...Punishment, on the other hand, usually references a penalty of some sort. Clearly there is a logical consequence here and the punishment is that they no longer have the DS to play with.

Is there a teachable moment here? Kids are really bright and when we help them, then can, with our good guidance, figure out what they might do...not what the other person should do, but what they might do, the next time they are faced with a similar situation.

Best wishes.

[hollysmom]

What age are these kids?

I have told Holly that if she doesn't want Robin playing with her things - then to not leave them in the 'common' room. The items need to go to Holly's Room where Robin has to ask to see them. Mine are 5 and 9. I could see this battle happening in my house where the 5 year old dioesn't want the 'help'

SSM

[lbd]

I agree, they both are pretty equal in the fault department, though I lean more in the brother's case of being at fault. I mean using your neighbor and the lawnmower example. What if you were in the middle of mowing your lawn and he asked for it back, you said "hey, can I just finish this row?" and he says "no!" grabs it away from you and you struggle over it and end up breaking it. Is it your fault completely because you borrowed it?

This is the same thing I thought when I read the lawnmower example. If you borrow it but don't use it for a week, you should give it back immediately but if you're in the middle of mowing, you should be able to finish.

You've gotten some really good advice already so I don't know what I can add. I did want to say though that encouraging kids to work problems out themselves rather than running to a grown-up is a good and necessary thing for them to learn, but if they need to come up with a process that doesn't involve violence (to toys or each other). Part of the learning process... My older brother had a comic book store he absolutely didn't want me going to, can't remember why. Eventually we worked something out where I agreed to not go there; I can't remember what I got but he essentially paid me off (stuff, not cash) since it was that important to him.

[SusanMac]

It's interesting that DH thinks no one should be punished, you think DD should be punished, and most of the BB so far thinks both kids should be punished :-)

I also agree that it took 2 kids to fight over it & break it together. DS shouldn't have grabbed it from her, but DD obviously pulled back on it. It's one thing to ask for it back, but another to grab it & have a struggle over it.

[ljt2r]

Well not to take the lazy way out or anything ;) but I agree strongly with pretty much everything Sneezles has said. Maybe I have issues too? :p

I also know that I think their relative ages are really important. My girls are 16 mos apart and aside from safety issues (my youngest is only 13 mos) I pretty much expect them to share things and to learn to share nicely. I personally think that it is a good thing to teach kids--even if they aren't sharing totally willingly as kids, hopefully they will as adults, having absorbed the lesson so to speak. However, if my kids were say 4 years apart it would be a different story--their toys don't intersect/overlap that well, they will have differing levels of responsibility (an 8 year old will not appreciate consequences like a 12 year old will, for example), and I can definitely see items getting misused, abused and broken that way. So maybe my opinions would change based on your kids' ages.

Laura