raw egg based desserts and small kids

[ljt2r]

I am tired of skipping over raw egg based desserts bc I have young children. I cannot find pasteurized eggs around here--not even at Jungle Jim's. What do other people do? I am not afraid of raw eggs as an adult but am not sure for kids 4 and under. For those of you willing to eat raw eggs--what did you or would you do with small kids?

[Just Mary]

I didn't worry about it, but it's not like I fed raw egg dishes daily. I've heard that around one in 70,000 eggs has some salmonella.

[ljt2r]

I didn't worry about it, but it's not like I fed raw egg dishes daily. I've heard that around one in 70,000 eggs has some salmonella.

Plus I only buy local, free range eggs, so I think the chance goes down even further (trying to convince myself is nothing to worry about :)).

[Valerie226]

I'm at loss to what kinds of deserts contain raw eggs. :confused::confused: My mother used to make a cake frosting that contained raw eggs but that's all I could think of.

I'm not a huge egg fan but everything I can think of, the eggs are cooked somewhere along the way. I would not eat raw eggs no matter how low the risk.

[ljt2r]

I'm at loss to what kinds of deserts contain raw eggs. :confused::confused: My mother used to make a cake frosting that contained raw eggs but that's all I could think of.

I'm not a huge egg fan but everything I can think of, the eggs are cooked somewhere along the way. I would not eat raw eggs no matter how low the risk.

If you've had mousse in a restaurant, good chance you've had raw eggs, albeit probably pasteurized. :) I want to make mousse and I want to make chocolate salami--a recipe I found on Wild Yeast's blog.

I eat raw eggs all the time--have my entire life. Cookie dough if nothing else. :D But it does make me more nervous knowing their immune systems are not fully developed necessarily. Then again I do feed them raw steak and sushi so perhaps my logic is not very logical.

[funniegrrl]

I'm wondering if the desserts you have in mind would work with egg beaters? Which are, after all, pasteurized egg whites. I'm wondering if you can petition your supermarket to start carrying them?

I'm with ya on the raw egg desserts ... not only mousse, but my family ice cream recipe uses eggs and is never cooked, and we ate that ALL THE TIME when I was growing up. One of my favorite pies, French Silk, also uses raw eggs. And, lots of cooked desserts don't always end up with FDA-standard thoroughly cooked eggs -- I'm thinking of things like lava cakes and the like.

I dunno what I'd do in your shoes ... I think the chances of salmonella are greater now than when we were kids (and I seem to have read something recently that said that local, small-farm product was no less susceptible), so I'd probably err on the side of caution ...

[Valerie226]

Whoops, forgot about cookie dough... I 've sampled it but I like baked better. my father used to make egg nog with raw eggs but I don't like egg nog so no temptation there. Regardless, salmonella is a nasty bug. If I wanted to take a chance myself that's one thing, but I wouldn't knowingly give raw eggs to a child.

[avariell]

this is the brand I told you about before:
http://www.safeeggs.com/
maybe contact them and ask if they are in any stores near you?!

[ljt2r]

I'm wondering if the desserts you have in mind would work with egg beaters? Which are, after all, pasteurized egg whites. I'm wondering if you can petition your supermarket to start carrying them?

I'm with ya on the raw egg desserts ... not only mousse, but my family ice cream recipe uses eggs and is never cooked, and we ate that ALL THE TIME when I was growing up. One of my favorite pies, French Silk, also uses raw eggs. And, lots of cooked desserts don't always end up with FDA-standard thoroughly cooked eggs -- I'm thinking of things like lava cakes and the like.

I dunno what I'd do in your shoes ... I think the chances of salmonella are greater now than when we were kids (and I seem to have read something recently that said that local, small-farm product was no less susceptible), so I'd probably err on the side of caution ...

Some mousses call for egg whites only but the mousse I was looking at calls for eggs, separated, and the salami ONLY calls for egg yolks. Argh.

[ljt2r]

this is the brand I told you about before:
http://www.safeeggs.com/
maybe contact them and ask if they are in any stores near you?!

Thanks Josie will look.

ETA back from looking and did you notice that except for Kroger's in Columbus all of those are restaurant distributors? Such a pain.

[sneezles]

I didn't often serve items made with raw eggs when the boys were little but I did make mousse now and then. I don't eat eggs where the yolks are cooked solid either and never served my boys hard cooked fried eggs either. I also live where you can't find pasteurized eggs. Boys always licked the beaters from cake mixes and ate raw cookie dough. Nary a bout of food borne illness in our house.

[ljt2r]

I didn't often serve items made with raw eggs when the boys were little but I did make mousse now and then. I don't eat eggs where the yolks are cooked solid either and never served my boys hard cooked fried eggs either. I also live where you can't find pasteurized eggs. Boys always licked the beaters from cake mixes and ate raw cookie dough. Nary a bout of food borne illness in our house.

That's how I grew up too. Sadly there is a disconnect between my brain and whatever gut part it is that controls paranoia. :o And also my daughters eat runny yolks, rare steak, carpaccio, sushi... So clearly I have issues to work through. :eek:

[funniegrrl]

If you are already feeding them runny yolks, then raw eggs aren't really different.

[Spotted Pony]

I am lucky to have 12 chicken ladies living in my barn. They are happy and healthy and I don't worry at all about raw eggs in cookie dough or ice cream.

I think the chicken ladies would cluck disapprovingly at me if I told them they were disease-carriers!;)

[avariell]

If you are already feeding them runny yolks, then raw eggs aren't really different.

They eat runny yolks?!?!?! Wth is the difference?

[ljt2r]

They eat runny yolks?!?!?! Wth is the difference?

Well, that was not a conscious decision on my part--DM encouraged her to. Now DD#1 is obsessed with them.

Anyway acc. to stuff I've read a large portion (but not all) of the salmonella problem is on the shell. 'Sposedly the pasteurization kills the salmonella on the shell, thereby reducing but not eliminating the threat. Don't know if this is true of all egg pasteurization or not. Am now definitely having overthinking alerts flashing across my brain... :rolleyes:

[Canice]

Wow, Laura. Runny yolks. Huh. Never pegged you for the sort. ;)

I don't have kids so I don't get a vote. I did make salad dressing with raw egg for a friend who was pregnant, so I bought pasteurized eggs. Crikey, they didn't have half-dozens so I bought a dozen (i.e., 33% of my annual egg use)...for something like five bucks. Had it been for me I would have bought pastured, not pasteurized, so I'm surprised to read that they are no less likely to be contaminated: I thought it was the factory farming that had increased the incidence of salmonella.

[avariell]

Well, that was not a conscious decision on my part--DM encouraged her to. Now DD#1 is obsessed with them.

Anyway acc. to stuff I've read a large portion (but not all) of the salmonella problem is on the shell. 'Sposedly the pasteurization kills the salmonella on the shell, thereby reducing but not eliminating the threat. Don't know if this is true of all egg pasteurization or not. Am now definitely having overthinking alerts flashing across my brain... :rolleyes:

Right, it is on the shell - but when you handle the egg and crack it, some of the shell germs can come in contact with the eggs. So like when you eat a runny yolk, it could be contaminated through the shell. So I am not sure why knowing it is on the shell makes you less or more likely to not care?

[Canice]

What? So those $$ eggs are just for an especially clean shell? I can definitely extract the yolk without having it come in contact with the exterior of the shell. Harumph.

[ljt2r]

Right, it is on the shell - but when you handle the egg and crack it, some of the shell germs can come in contact with the eggs. So like when you eat a runny yolk, it could be contaminated through the shell. So I am not sure why knowing it is on the shell makes you less or more likely to not care?

No my point was more just that I did not even know what to think of pasteurization and maybe it would be not too hard to do on my own if it is just about the shell anyway. Or something.

Canice: I never cared either way, for myself, until I started eating fried eggs on Mexican food. Yum. Then I want it runny for sure. :)

[Canice]

Just razzin' ya. Huevos *must* have runny yolks - it's like a law or something. Always my preference, but the only time I will complain is an over poached egg, with hard yolk. Eww.

[funniegrrl]

There are a few misconceptions here ...

First, salmonella can exist on the outside of the egg, but it can also be inside the egg. A hen can have salmonella in her ovaries, and thus the bacteria will be inside the egg itself. IT doesn't matter if the egg is local, organic, laid in your own backyard by your very own hen; it could still have salmonella. http://origin-www.fsis.usda.gov/Fact_Sheets/Focus_On_Shell_Eggs/index.asp. Anything below cooking to 160 degrees (or cooking to 140 for at least 3 minutes) means that there is still risk. Even pasteurization doesn't eliminate the risk.

The link above also has some tips on using eggs in recipes that call for raw eggs -- being a USDA site, though, it does not advocate using things like whipped raw egg whites, so the ability to use the methods described will depend on the recipe. Here's another article from the Georgia Egg Board that goes into more detail: http://www.georgiaeggs.org/pages/pasteurization.html

As for purchased pasteurized eggs, it's not just about cleaning the outside. There are strict regulations about whether or not a food product can be labeled as pasteurized, it's a scientific term with a specific meaning. Here's an explanation from one of several companies: http://www.safeeggs.com/eggs/how-eggs-are-pasteurized.html. And no, you can't pasteurize in-the-shell eggs at home, even though there are web sites that claim you can.

[ljt2r]

There are a few misconceptions here ...

First, salmonella can exist on the outside of the egg, but it can also be inside the egg. A hen can have salmonella in her ovaries, and thus the bacteria will be inside the egg itself. IT doesn't matter if the egg is local, organic, laid in your own backyard by your very own hen; it could still have salmonella. http://origin-www.fsis.usda.gov/Fact_Sheets/Focus_On_Shell_Eggs/index.asp. Anything below cooking to 160 degrees (or cooking to 140 for at least 3 minutes) means that there is still risk. Even pasteurization doesn't eliminate the risk.

The link above also has some tips on using eggs in recipes that call for raw eggs -- being a USDA site, though, it does not advocate using things like whipped raw egg whites, so the ability to use the methods described will depend on the recipe. Here's another article from the Georgia Egg Board that goes into more detail: http://www.georgiaeggs.org/pages/pasteurization.html

As for purchased pasteurized eggs, it's not just about cleaning the outside. There are strict regulations about whether or not a food product can be labeled as pasteurized, it's a scientific term with a specific meaning. Here's an explanation from one of several companies: http://www.safeeggs.com/eggs/how-eggs-are-pasteurized.html. And no, you can't pasteurize in-the-shell eggs at home, even though there are web sites that claim you can.

Thanks those links helped a lot. Still unsure about the mousse, but I can use that method by mixing the yolks with alcohol in the recipe and heat it for the other dish.

[ljt2r]

But if you want to risk the whipped egg whites, this is interesting, from the USDA site:

What Part Carries Bacteria?
Researchers say that, if present, the SE is usually in the yolk or "yellow." However, they can't rule out the bacteria being in egg whites. So everyone is advised against eating raw or undercooked egg yolks and whites or products containing raw or undercooked eggs.

[LaraW]

Can you get meringue powder? I used it recently, and it is made out of pasteurized egg whites. I got it at Michaels, but I am sure other places carry it. That might solve the mousse problem, but not the other.

[avariell]

I wonder what a side-by-side comparison looks of the risk assessment between raw beef/fish and undercooked eggs. I totally understand not risking it with the under 3 kids, but I don't know if I would worry too much now (of course it would stink to be the person who says don't worry and then have your kid get sick, ya know?).

[Just Mary]

I'm remembering all the over easy and sunny side up eggs I served in diners in high school, and multiplying that by all the diners and homes and decades. I'm surprised we're not extinct if salmonella is that virulent. Or that salmonella poisoning isn't like the common cold in it's frequency, at least.

I'm a strong believer in not growing a kid in an anti-bac environment. Here's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hygiene_hypothesis) more about that if anyone's interested.

[testkitchen45]

Can you get meringue powder? I used it recently, and it is made out of pasteurized egg whites. I got it at Michaels, but I am sure other places carry it. That might solve the mousse problem, but not the other.

I have actually tested a mousse recipe with various choices for the whites. (Hey, I didn't pick the name "testkitchen" for nothing. :D) It's Lee Bailey's Blackberry Mousse, and if you do a search of old threads, you'll find the mousse thread I started on this very topic. Here's what I found:

Raw whites--5-star recipe. Perfect. Lasts in fridge, too (overnight & longer).
Just Whites (pure powdered whites)--Ick. Great flavor, but runny. Broke down quickly. Bottom of bowl filled with water after the JW broke down (overnight).
Liquid pasteurized whites--Better, but still a bit runny, like pancake syrup or really incredible ice-cream syrup.
Meringue powder--Not tried. First ingredient is corn starch; lots of other Frankenfood ingredients. Won't try this for mousse.

So none of the options worked, except for the raw whites. My next step is to make Alice Medrich's Safe Meringue, whereby you very carefully heat the whites to a certain temp b4 letting them cool & whipping them as usual. The cookbook, Chocolate and the Art of Low-Fat Desserts, is a James Beard award winner, so I figure Ms. Medrich knows what she's talking about (in using these safe whites for meringues & mousses, where you need them to stay stable & not go all runny on you). This procedure was a nightmare with a cheapie Taylor instant-read thermometer (takes several seconds); now that I own a Thermapen (takes 2 seconds), I'm looking forward to trying it again.

Wish I had better news for you, but at least I've done some legwork on trying mousse with egg-white alternatives.

[LaraW]

TK, that reminds me of a swiss meringue buttercream recipe I have made in the past, where you whip the egg whites in a bowl over simmering water (kind of like a double boiler) and bring to a certain temp. Doing that might work, I don't think I had any issues with the volume of the eggs.

I was using my meringue powder to make royal icing for decorating gingerbread houses. I don't recall if I needed to whip any volume into them, but the recipe sheet that came with it had some recipes that used whipped egg whites. I dont' think mine had cornstarch in it, I used the Wilton brand and got them at Michaels.

[testkitchen45]

TK, that reminds me of a swiss meringue buttercream recipe I have made in the past, where you whip the egg whites in a bowl over simmering water (kind of like a double boiler) and bring to a certain temp. Doing that might work, I don't think I had any issues with the volume of the eggs.

I was using my meringue powder to make royal icing for decorating gingerbread houses. I don't recall if I needed to whip any volume into them, but the recipe sheet that came with it had some recipes that used whipped egg whites. I dont' think mine had cornstarch in it, I used the Wilton brand and got them at Michaels.

The Wilton brand is what I was talking about (mostly corn starch). :) It's great for royal icing, though; that's why I have it.

Your egg-white method is what Alice Medrich does. She uses it for meringue & for other recipes calling for raw whites, so I bet it'd work beautifully. I thought a carton of pasteurized whites would be essentially the same thing, but it didn't work so well. Maybe at home, we control the temp more, but in a factory, they process it to a higher temp or for longer & it changes the structure of the whites? Who knows, but you'd think the purchased whites would work great, & they don't. :confused:

[funniegrrl]

Meringue powder is NOT the same as powdered egg whites. Powdered egg whites are simply dried egg whites. Meringue powder has sugar and stabilizers and is more akin to what you have when you make a swiss buttercream, before you add the butter.

Yes, Alice Medrich is a well-respected cookbook author, and her method for making meringue is well-documented.

[mrswaz]

That's how I grew up too. Sadly there is a disconnect between my brain and whatever gut part it is that controls paranoia. :o And also my daughters eat runny yolks, rare steak, carpaccio, sushi... So clearly I have issues to work through. :eek:

Well, I'm thinking that you're not talking about making mousse or chocolate salami every day- but being a special occasion thing.

If you already "break the rules" with all of the above, for myself, personally, I would just do it. If you had my kids, all that stress would be for nothing anyways, because I would stress over the mousse, decide to make it, and then after one taste they'd likely decline.

But YOU need to be comfortable with it. I could give a laundry list of how my kids ate peanuts, shellfish, egg yolk, and raw cheese before they were one year of age. They turned out just fine- but that doesn't make it right for your kids. Only you can decide where your comfort level is.

[Laurielee]

I thought that getting salmonella from local farm eggs was very rare.

Please tell me if I am wrong, but I thought Salmonella is much more prevailent now because of the huge cchicken farms and the lack of cleanliness. The same with ground beef and Ecoli


Laurie

[funniegrrl]

I thought that getting salmonella from local farm eggs was very rare.

Please tell me if I am wrong, but I thought Salmonella is much more prevailent now because of the huge cchicken farms and the lack of cleanliness. The same with ground beef and Ecoli

It's a matter of degree. The risk of salmonella is still very low compared to other foods -- produce, for example. Higher than it used to be? Yeah, sure. But it wasn't non-existent in the past, and local farm eggs aren't magically immune.

It's a very common misconception -- even on this board -- that organic, local, whatever food is risk-free when it comes to safety issues. That's just not true. Yes, factory farming and massive processing endeavors have caused a lot of problems, but that doesn't mean that your farmer down the road is going to magically produce food that is safer JUST because he's the farmer down the road.

The organic/natural food industry complex is just as loaded with hype and misinformation as the conventional food industry. A lot of people here will automatically pick up anything labeled "natural" without looking at an ingredient list or even realizing that there is no industry or government standard to define what "natural" means. This includes health and beauty products; in fact, it's probably especially true of health and beauty products, I see it all the time on the Other board. This is the same mentality that tosses out perfectly good food if the "sell by" or "best by" date is tomorrow, because many people around here don't understand what those dates really mean. It's being worried about all the wrong things because there's no understanding of the real issues. It took me 10 minutes to find the links I posted above, which explain the topic pretty well, but I'd bet that the people arguing against what I've said haven't even read them.

[oct2189]

Laura, I visit your blog regularly and see all kinds of fabulous baked goodies. Is it possible your kids don't eat plenty of raw dough & batter already?:rolleyes:

[ljt2r]

Laura, I visit your blog regularly and see all kinds of fabulous baked goodies. Is it possible your kids don't eat plenty of raw dough & batter already?:rolleyes:

I am pretty careful about it. The first question out of DD#1's mouth is "Does it have eggs in it?", followed by a crestfallen face when the answer is yes. They did get some once from my brother.

ETA I actually asked my ped about the rare meat and sushi and he said it was fine. The runny eggs were more of an accident (see above)--I wish now I had asked that ped about eggs bc I found him very common sensical. I tried to ask a ped here (since moving) and she was horrified *I* would eat raw eggs. I find it hard to relax about something when the doctor has said no. I guess maybe she would not approve of sushi either? ;)

[oct2189]

I am pretty careful about it. The first question out of DD#1's mouth is "Does it have eggs in it?", followed by a crestfallen face when the answer is yes. They did get some once from my brother.

You, quite possibly, have the most reasonable children on earth! Dissappointment is not all my mom would have gotten from me!:D

[ljt2r]

You, quite possibly, have the most reasonable children on earth! Dissappointment is not all my mom would have gotten from me!:D

DD#2 and I are possibly headed for more stringent arguments about it (she is 3YO so it has not come up as much, baking has only been big for her the last 4 mos or so). DD#1 is a mom-pleaser/adult-pleaser. So she is very reasonable about stuff like that. On the other hand, she cried for 2 hours last night "because she could not sleep" so it ain't all roses. :D

But I have been feeling lately like I am not consistent and *I* certainly eat raw cookie dough, which just has me questioning all of this.

My husband the statistician (kinda, stats are big in his field) feels at 1 in 20,000 odds he has no idea why I am even wasting thought on it. Drat that most recent pediatrician!

[Just Mary]

I'm glad you mentioned the stats thing. I too work and think statistically and 1/70,000 to means 'don't worry about it'. It's not 1/70,000 chance of a painful death, but of ingesting a microorganism that might do nothing, might give you a stomachache, might make you a little sick, or might make you very sick. I'd like to know the odds of that last one. Every breakfast restaurant probably goes through 70,000 eggs pretty quickly, but rarely (if ever) gives a person food poisoning.

Using the pen at the checkout line might have a similar chance of making me very sick. The odds of getting in a car accident are very high, but we all still drive and even put our babies in the car daily, without a second thought. For most of us, it's not so much about avoiding all danger as weighing the actual risk against the benefit. And eggs taste GOOD not cooked to death! ; )

[ljt2r]

I'm glad you mentioned the stats thing. I too work and think statistically and 1/70,000 to means 'don't worry about it'. It's not 1/70,000 chance of a painful death, but of ingesting a microorganism that might do nothing, might give you a stomachache, might make you a little sick, or might make you very sick. I'd like to know the odds of that last one. Every breakfast restaurant probably goes through 70,000 eggs pretty quickly, but rarely (if ever) gives a person food poisoning.

Using the pen at the checkout line might have a similar chance of making me very sick. The odds of getting in a car accident are very high, but we all still drive and even put our babies in the car daily, without a second thought. For most of us, it's not so much about avoiding all danger as weighing the actual risk against the benefit. And eggs taste GOOD not cooked to death! ; )

This is why it makes me nervous for very little kids--I feel like their immune systems are not developed. This is NOT, btw an argument, bc I can imagine your response since in general I play for "your team" ;) but rather me explaining my paranoia. So I tried to ask the ped when their immune system was closer to an adult's, not so fragile, and instead got a lecture about eating raw eggs for myself. :rolleyes:

I have switched peds though so maybe I will ask the new one when I get a chance.