Do You Agree With Ms. Manners??

[laughsandlaughs]

Since this article appeared in the September 2001 issue I thought I should ask if you all agree...I sure don't!

Here's the Ms. Manners question:
Dear Miss Manners:
My husband is a vegetarian; I am not. When we are invited to dine at the home of friends, I maintain that my husband should inform our hosts-to-be that he does not eat meat. He feels that if he tells them that he is vegetarian, they will feel obliged to accommodate him. What is the socially correct thing to do?

Gentle Reader: The socially correct thing for a guest to do is to be perfectly happy eating salad, bread, and any vegetable; the socially correct thing for a host to do is to refrain from being disappointed when a guest does not, for any reason, consume everything that is offered.

***********************************
My husband is also a vegetarian and especially if we're going to someone's house for dinner and we're the only guests (if we're going to a bigger dinner party I don't worry with it so much), I always tell them, and tell them they don't have to cater to him, and that he can eat something before hand or even bring something special for him, but I do want them not to expect him to eat meat... Is this wrong?

I just know how mad/frustrated/disappointed I'd be if I cooked all day only to find out my guest couldn't eat it. This actually happened to me...I spent the day making a beautiful, complicated cake only to have my guest tell me he couldn't eat dairy. Had I known I'd have made a simple pie!! So now I ask about dietary needs when I ask someone over to dinner.

Does everyone else think Ms. Manners is right?? Should I not mention his vegetarianism to our hosts?

[Grace]

For me it would depend upon who these "friends" were, and what kind of party it was. If they were really good friends, and it was a dinner party with just us, I would definitely tell them, and then be happy regardless of what they served. If it were friends I wasn't very close with, and/or the party was for lots of people, not just us, then I definitely would not say anything, and as Miss Manners says, be happy with whatever items I could find that were vegetarian.

My mother has a terrible side effect from having had to take tons of antibiotics. The antibiotics changed something in her liver, and she is now unable to properly metabolize any kind of fat other than olive oil or canola oil. ANYTHING with even the minutest amount of butterfat or nut oil causes her to break out in these HUGE, horrible red welts all over her face, and it's not even the fact that cosmetically they're unpleasant, but they are very, very painful. They take several DAYS to subside, and there is nothing she can take or put on topically that makes them less painful. So needless to say, she avoids butterfat (that includes milk, yogurt, cheese of any sort, chocolate, soy, nuts, etc.) like the plague. BUT, whenever she goes anywhere, she never says anything. She happily eats whatever she can find that is "safe", and never mentions a word unless people press her for information. The upside is that she's forced to eat nothing but grains, fruits/veggies, beans, lean meats, etc. The diet she should be eating anyway, but I'm here to tell you that trying to avoid every trace of those things I just listed is nearly impossible!!! Whenever I cook for her I have a devil of a time coming up with a menu she can actually eat.

[Kjente2]

I think that most of us really try to put our best foot forward when we invite people to our homes to make sure that they are comfortable and have a good time. While I think that most people that have dietary problems learn towork around it when they go places, why not be up front so that everybody can have a good time..I know that if someone came to my home, couldn't eat what i'd prepared, it wouldn't be the end of life as I know it, but it would take a lot of the joy of that moment away. None of us would push sweets at diabetics, liquor at people in recovery, meat on a vegetarian..its just not that big a deal when the idea is comradery, comfort, and fun.

[Alaine]

Some of Miss Manners' answers have this "sweep it under the rug" approach which I really dislike. So many people are vegetarians, have allergies, or are on special diets that it seems like ordinary consideration would dictate asking your guests about food preferences. I guess I kind of agree that it should be the host's responsibility to ask rather than the guest's responsibility to request special foods--but if the host doesn't ask, I don't think a guest should feel bad about mentioning that there's something they can't eat!

[laughsandlaughs]

I agree....I don't think it's the host's responsibility to cater to special needs, but it's their right to know ahead of time before they put a lot of time, effort and money into a meal that won't be eaten.

[tracey67]

I agree with everyone else. If it's a dinner party with more than just us as guests, I wouldn't bother to say anything. But, if you and your husband are the only people invited, then I'd definitely say something.

Ms. Manners is saying that the host should not be disappointed when guests don't eat everything that is offered. Just like laughsandlaughs said - I'd be really disappointed if I spent a lot of time cooking a meal that didn't get eaten. OR - say you spent a ton of money on fillet mignon because you wanted to "treat" your guests and - only after it was cooked - discovered that your guests are vegetarians - I'd be majorly bummed (and feel bad that they didn't have anything to eat, on top of it). You know how all the entertaining articles say to relax and not worry so much about having a perfect home or perfect food - that guests are coming to see YOU and not your home. Well - in that same vein - when you cook for company - you're not really cooking for yourself - you're cooking for them. I mean that's how I feel. I figure that I have EVERYDAY to cook just for myself - but when guests come - I really want to make something that I know they'll enjoy - even if it may not be my number 1 - all-time favorite food.

I also agree that when it's just a small dinner party, it's really the hosts' responsibility to ask about any special dietary needs. I pretty much know all of my friends' likes and dislikes, but if it's someone new, I always ask. Even for big dinner parties I make sure that I have at least one substantial dish that is completely vegetarian.

tracey

[beejayw1]

I agree that a host should ask (I always do; it's common courtesy), but keep in mind that you are responsible for your own continuing health. If your condition is life-threatening (you go into anaphylactic shock if you eat peanuts, for example) it's up to you to to mention it up front to the hosts if you accept a dinner date.

"Gosh, I'd love to have dinner with you! Oh, wait! I'm allergic to lobster - if you're planning to serve that, I'll have to just eat the side dishes."

Likewise, if you feel very strongly that eating any other sort of fruit than what falls from the tree is equal to murder, you should mention that as well. In advance. If you don't do so, it's not your hosts' fault if something appears on your plate that you don't like or can't eat.

"Gosh, I'd love to have dinner with you! Only...it might be too much trouble for you. YOu see, I'm a fruitatarian, and I believe that eating fruit that has been picked rather than being allowed to fall to the ground is the same as murder. I'll understand if you can't have me over."

Contrast that with,
"Gosh, I'd love to have dinner with you! Now, I hate lima beans. Oh, and turnips, too. And if you're serving meatloaf, I don't want any. I love steaks, and I've had a yen recently for roast chicken. By the way, I've gotten into organic produce. Let me give you the name of a great grocery store where you can go shopping for the food."

The point is that guests are traditionally supposed to take what comes their way. They're there on sufferance, so to speak. Health and religious/ethical issues are handled differently from preferences, and should be stated up front. If you don't, it's not the hosts' fault.

(I remember a group of Egyptian Muslims traveling through Japan. They wished to watch a tea ceremony, and did so. When they were pressed to take some of the refreshments, they declined pleasantly: it was the fast of Ramadan, and they could not eat before sunset. The hosts packed up the food for them to take with them and enjoy after sundown.)

[Jessica]

I have several friends with serious food allergies. When I am hosting a meal, I try to remember to ask guests whether they have any allergies, are vegetarian, etc. Fortunately for me, I am an omnivore and will eat whatever hosts serve unless it has mayonnaise in it.

I also think there is a difference between an allergy and a preference. When someone invites me, I usually will not say, "oh by the way, I hate mayonnaise." But one friend of mine could die if she ate a nut, and so she has to ask what is in each dish to avoid any nuts or nut oils. Very different situations.

[BevP]

Looks like we're all disagreeing with Miss Manners. I think the guest has the right to say "I'd love to come to dinner and don't expect you to cater to me but I'm a vegetarian." Then the host can decide on the menu just don't be upset if the guest stays away from your famous roast beef.

If it's a last minute thing, the guest should just do their best being polite. A good host want's to please a guest. I'd feel really bad as a host to think I made my guest go home hungry.

[funnybone]

If I am inviting somebody over for the first time, I like to know if there is something that one cannot eat. We have friends who have egg and nut allergies. If something needs to be breaded with an egg, I would not serve it.

However, what bothered me was when a friend told me she was on a strict diet and could not eat beef, rice, bread, etc. She basically gave me a list of things. Well, I knew her DH and my DH liked some of those things, so I went out of my way to prepare things for the men and things for us woman (so she didn't feel left out). Well, imagine my surprise when she leaned to her DH (after she ate her chicken breast) and asked for a piece of his STEAK! After she told me she couldn't eat beef!!! Also, she ate some rolls that I had out as well, even though she told me she couldn't eat them. Well, that really upset me, because it turns out she was not so serious about her diet as she was supposed to be, yet, I was to cater to her. That was the last time I listened to her requests. That was just plain RUDE!

[gertdog]

I always tell my host that I'm a vegetarian and that they need not cater to me. I also offer to bring a vegetarian side dish to the meal.

When I host, I always try to remember my guests' likes, dislikes and allergies etc. I want them to enjoy the meal!

That said, a few weeks ago I received an invitation to a luncheon at a conference. I forgot to tell my host that I was a vegetarian. She was paying for my lunch and it was on the expensive side. When our meal was served, it was chicken with a few vegetables on the side. I couldn't just leave it uneaten. So, for the first time in many years, I took a deep breath and ate a few bites of chicken. I didn't feel there was any other polite way to handle the situation; after all, it was my own fault for not remembering to request a vegetarian entree.

[Beth]

I'm with you and say Miss Manners would not be appreciated in my home on this issue. I have tried to remember to ask about dietary considerations when I am having one couple or family over, but may not with a larger group. Still, I would want to know if there were things I should consider in planning a meal. I nearly made shrimp creole for someone who was Kosher! :o

Allergies are imperative if they cause more than a stomach upset or minor irritation. No dinner that ends in a trip to the ER can be all good (even if you meet George Clooney there, hit it off, and ride into the sunset). A stir fry that might otherwise be prepared with peanut oil can be made with another oil IF YOU KNOW in advance of an allergy.

My mother can't eat any seeds, and that causes more problems than I would have thought (Berries, tomatoes, nuts and seeds in or on breads to begin with). But these things are also easily dealt with. We went to a function where the desert was a meringue topped with ice cream and berries. The chef had one done for her with a seedless puree of the berries, and it was wonderful. If a person is vegetarian, you can often work a rice and bean side or salad and side combination to not only give your guest something to eat, but to also make it nutritious and filling. I would not want to send my guest home on nothing but lettuce.

Now the person who has a long list, whether allergies or preferences, should, IMO, be prepared to make suggestions or offer to bring something. The point is to be able to enjoy each other's company and the food should enhance that experience, not take over.

[Vanessa]

If its a small dinner party and we are talking of friends maybe the friend should remind the hostesss of his dietary problems.
When going to BBQ or bigger dinner parties I either take along something I can eat or find something without calling attention to my allergies because it would make the hostess upset.
Most of our friends are aware of my allergies.
If I am the hostess when I call people to confirm I just ask if there is something they cannot eat, that way I am prepared and have something they can eat.

[Jewel]

I also think it depends. Vegetarianism is very commonplace now, and shouldn't be frowned upon by anyone, so if someone showed up at my dinner party without telling me beforehand, it wouldn't bother me. I'd just point out the salad and the side dishes and tell him it was just more meat for the rest of us! As long as you keep the situation light and don't totally obsess about it through dinner ("Oh John, I wish I'd known before you came, I would have made a Tofurkey!!!" :eek: ) and embarrass Mr. Vegetarian, I don't see a problem with NOT mentioning it.

However, allergies and intolerances should be mentioned, in my opinion, especially if it's a smaller get-together. If there's 30 people at a backyard BBQ, the lady who's lactose-intolerant can find plenty to munch on and not alarm anyone...but if it's a dinner for 4 or 6 people and I'd served Fettucine Alfredo and cheesecake for dessert, there could be some hurt feelings and some hungry guests!! The whole purpose of dining with friends and family is for comfort, fun, and sharing good times. If one person is not able to join in, then it can put a damper on the whole thing! I say let your preferences be known, but in a subtle way! :D

[aggie94]

I agree that it is the host's responsibility to ask about restrictions, no matter what the size of the dinner party is. If you're inviting guests to your home and you're concerned about pleasing them, I think it's your responsibility to ask if they have any limitations on what they can or will eat.

If a host doesn't ask, I usually don't say anything about my food allergies. Most of my friends know that I'm deathly allergic to shrimp, watermelon, peaches, and parsley. I can almost always find something else to eat (there's gotta be bread, right?). BUT, if my host didn't ask, they have no right to make me feel bad for not eating what they serve.

[Leanne]

I half agree - If you're vegetarian, I don't think you should say anything.

If you'll be hospitalized or die b/c of a certain ingredient, I think the host/hostess would want to know so they could let you know what you should or shouldn't eat or that they should be extra careful in food prep, etc.

Big parties - you'll probably have to eat around it. Good friends, they'll probably know/ask anyway.

Also, I think that people keep the vegetarian in mind usually for larger parties. You can't do that with specific allergies unless you know.

[Don]

Since I developed diabetes, I have found it imperative that I discuss the menu when invited for dinner. Unfortunately, I can't tell a host just to avoid certain foods. I control my blood sugar with carbohydrate counting, so I have to check the nutritional content of the food. I have asked to see the bags and cans that food came from so I can check the nutritional counts. If I didn't speak up, I would most likely be fed food that could put me in sugar shock. Most of my family loads up everything they cook with extra sugar. In fact, at the last family get together on the 4th of July, the only things I could eat (other than a hot dog or hamburger) were the two items that I brought. I must admit though, that it can be a real challenge to devise a menu. That's why I rarely eat at someone else's home now. I also have a very good friend who is a vegetarian, who does the same. Trying to plan a meal that we both can eat is nearly impossible.

[Ohioan]

I think some folks here may be assuming that vegetarianism is just a whim that shouldn't be treated seriously. But for many vegetarians, the choice is an ethical one, like an Orthodox Jew keeping kosher or a Muslim not eating pork or alcohol. Even "eating around" the animal flesh resting on their plates would be so nauseating that they might not be able to eat at all.

As for nonallergenic "preferences," sometimes these distastes are so strong that they almost amount to an allergy, although no allergy test would come up positive. For example, if I were served anything doused in a cream sauce or butter, I simply wouldn't be able to eat it. One bite, and my whole stomach would come up.

In these cases, I think telling a hostess, "I'm sorry, but I just can't eat any of this" would be more hurtful and disruptive than mentioning the revulsions ahead of time. At least the hostess wouldn't be embarrassed in front of company.

Okay, at a large banquet or buffet, no one would notice, or the guest could find something to eat. But at a small dinner party, everyone would be aware that someone is sitting at the table without putting anything in her mouth except sips of water, with maybe a forced smile on her face but her plate virtually untouched. And someone would say something.

Anyway, I always ask first-time guests, "Is there anything you can't eat or really dislike?" And if I've been invited for the first time, I always mention the problem I have with butter and cream sauces. As for the vegetarianism, since my distaste for meat/fish is a purely aesthetic one, I've stopped specifying and just eat whatever is on my plate -- as long as it's not creamy or buttery.

Cheers,
Phoebe

[heatherfeather]

Um - Miss Manners is correct in that particular circumstance. When you are invited to someone's home for any meal, it IS rude to tell the hostess what she may or may not serve, unless there is an extenuating allergy or other medical issue at hand. Obviously if you are severely allergic to nuts etc., then you need to inform the hostess before hand - she may cook her chicken in peanut oil etc. However, for matters of choice - either religious, environmental or simply taste preferences, it is not polite to inform the hostess to cater her meal accordingly. Now, that does not mean that if the hostess is thoughtful enough to ASK her guests if they have any preferences etc. that you can't explain you personal needs. As a matter of fact, as a person with severe food allergiesmyself, I always ask my guests if they have any allergies or religious/environmental convictions so that I can plan my menu accordingly. Usually I already know that a particular guest is Kosher or Vegetarian etc. when inviting friends, anyway.
However, if one of my guests chose not to eat a particular item I had served, I would not be offended. As a former vegatarian, I understand where a lot of you are coming from - but honestly, on those nights when I accepted an invitation to a friend's home that didn't remember I was a vegetarian, I simply ate whatever vegetables were available and kept my mouth shut. So I didn't eat a particularly filling meal that one night of my life (and several other nights), but that was the price I paid for sticking to my convictions. I was perfectly willing to pay that price.

[tracey67]

Heather - the issue isn't whether or not Ms. Manners is CORRECT, but rather do we AGREE with her (and it seems that most of do not). I understand what you're saying about not wanting to impose your tastes on other's hospitality, but I think there are other issues that come into play also - such as wasting food for one. You said that you didn't mind those few nights when you ate only the side vegetables - but what about the other food that went completely to waste on your plate only because you were too polite to say that you didn't want any? Just a thought.

tracey

[Wendy w]

When I have people over, I always ask if they have any aversions/allergies, etc. I remember one time several years ago that my ex-BF and I had some friends over for dinner. He made cioppino, which was wonderful but my friends were not seafood people and ate salad and bread instead. How I wish I had known. This is why I now ask.

My late father had a strong aversion to chicken in recent years because he was a cardiac patient and that's what they wanted him to eat. He said that if he had any more, he would end up clucking. Whenever he would go into the hospital, they would give him chicken and he wouldn't eat it. My crafty aunt finally put chicken down on his allergy list so they wouldn't give him any.:D

I have met some nit-picky types who have been a pain about making their dietary preferences known but I believe that there is a tactful way of mentioning it.

[kwormann]

I have been reading this with interest as I am starting to develop an intolerance to some foods :(

At my last supper club, it was very easy for me to just eat what my body would accept and not eat what it wont. I would be uncomfortable about saying I am having digestive problems, because how do I know they are going to last??? I would feel bad not eating something one time, then eating it the next time!

HOWEVER, I dont see a problem with letting someone know your dietary needs...I just am not bold enough to do so (plus, am hoping this too shall pass.....) My cousin has been a veggie for 21 years and she always says she would hate for anyone to go to special trouble just for her. SHed rather eat side dishes etc and be completely happy:) Thats kind of where I am until I do more testing on my digestion and I see how long this lasts!!!:)

[Mbart]

This has been touched upon lightly, but I'm wondering what you all think about those that simply don't LIKE something. I ask as I have an in-law that does not like most foods. Seriously. No meat except chicken. No seafood. No vegetables, not even salads. A few fruits are acceptable. Basically, she eats chicken, cheese and bread. Oh, and of course desserts (sort of goes without saying! If you don't like desserts, are you even human?:)) This is not due to any allergy or medical condition. It is purely a personal dislike for most foods. Never ate them as a child, and now not as an adult (She's 30). Let me tell you, this can be a challenge when dining, at home OR in restaurants. I find it amazing personally, and feel like you should at least TRY certain things that you have previously found not to your liking, because you never know if your food preferences might change. Anyone else every run into the picky adult eater? How do you respond?

[Veronica]

Have I EVER run into a picky eater!! A friend of ours has a long list of dislikes, many of which are ingredients in TONS of my recipes. I only have so many bland recipes on hand, and it's a drag to deprive everyone else of something tastier. I've started to prepare a separate, plain meal for him, but that's a pain, too. Food allergies and food-related health problems I gladly accommodate, but this picky eater thing gets my goat.

[laughsandlaughs]

Now I know what you mean by picky eaters. My father is one of the pickiest eaters I know. Pretty much he's a meat and potatoes kind of man...no sauces, no ethnic food, no dairy, no pasta, etc. Since my husband is a vegetarian, trying to come up with a meal that's a compromise is almost impossible. I think it is rude to give a long list of "likes and dislikes" especially if you're not asked. Even if you are asked, I don't think you give a long list...maybe something general, but you can't tell people exactly what you'd like. My attitude is that you just try to get through it if you don't like something.

Maybe this is a double standard, but if you're going to be so picky and not willing to try new things you have to be willing to compromise. If you have ethical, religious or health reasons for avoiding foods you still have to be willing to go hungry at a dinner party, but have a little more lenancy.

[Ohioan]

On reading back over all these posts -- and the original comment by Miss Manners -- I'm growing more and more uneasy. What has happened to the idea of hospitality?

When I was young (about 150 years ago), it was a given that when we invite people into our home, we do everything we can to make them happy -- or at least comfortable -- even at the cost of great discomfort to ourselves.

In fact, even this idea is a comedown from the old idea of hospitality, in which a host, once he takes people into his home, is responsible for their well-being to the point at which he should lay down his life for them if they're attacked. Shakespeare's Macbeth implicitly acknowledges this idea when he says that as Duncan's host, he "should against his murderer bar the door, / Not bear the knife [him]self."

So although most of us probably won't have to fling ourselves into the path of a bullet aimed at one of our guests, I do think we should at least go to the trouble of accommodating their tastes in food. Otherwise, why invite them to dinner? Only to show off? To clear away social obligations? Or what?

Pardon my crankiness. At my age, I'm entitled. (Or at least that's the excuse I use now. I was hard pressed to find one before I turned geriatric.):rolleyes:

Oh, and by the way, those of us who disagree with Ms. Manners are saying she's incorrect. If we thought she was correct, we wouldn't disagree. (Logic! Hee hee. :p )

Fractiously, ;)
Phoebe

[SueK]

My husband works at a very ethnically diverse corporation, so I guess the first thing I would think of is "Do their cultures/religions enable them to have this dish?" We also have friends that are very vocal about being vegetarians, etc. When we have company, whether they say anything or not, I usually try to have several dishes, one of which will be non-red meat, and one will be vegetarian. I kind of get the feeling that some people are hesitant to say they won't eat meat, etc., because they'll come off as being too "picky". Hey, I respect their choice, and won't hold it against them. And I would definitely want to know if they had allergies!

Having said that, I normally go with the flow when I am going to someone else's house. If I had allergies, of course, I would speak up. And if I were vegetarian, and my hosts were good friends, I would also say something. If it was a large party, I'd just pick and choose.

[d_ferrero]

Originally posted by laughsandlaughs


:snip:

My husband is also a vegetarian and especially if we're going to someone's house for dinner and we're the only guests (if we're going to a bigger dinner party I don't worry with it so much), I always tell them, and tell them they don't have to cater to him, and that he can eat something before hand or even bring something special for him, but I do want them not to expect him to eat meat... Is this wrong?

:snip:

Does everyone else think Ms. Manners is right?? Should I not mention his vegetarianism to our hosts?

I have to agree with you... I would express my dietary needs ahead of time and appreciate it when my guests do the same. We recently hosted a BBQ where one of my guests was vegetarian. As we were planning the menu, we consulted all of our guests for likes/dislikes etc. My vegetarian guests responded that they'd "bring something for Ray to toss on the grill. What we selected for a menu was not nearly as important as the time spent with friends." I couldn't agree more. :)

[SueInMarne]

I think it depends on the situation, if its a small dinner party 3-5 couples, then the hostess should be"warned"
in advance and then could offer a larger variety of vegetables, salads, rice etc. If the gathering is very Large,
Weddings, etc then the vegetarian should eat before hand, and just take small portions of what they prefer to
eat. If its a "Pay by the plate" type gathering, then they should probably come after the meal has been served
and just enjoy the drinks, and company to avoid throwing away food.
I'm on a no fat diet (Taking Xenocal) and if I eat anything fatty I get very bad stomache upsets. I generally
let my hostess know that ahead of time so they aren't offended if I take small portions or skip something.
Most of hosts are considerate and offer a veggy type platter or salad anyway for these situations !


:)

[Grace]

Um, Phoebe? Can I just say that I love you?!! MWAHHH (Big kiss!) (And no, not THAT kind of love....YOU know what I mean!) XXOO :D :D :D Please don't ever go anywhere - we NEED you here! Oh, and if you ever invite me over to your house for dinner....I'll eat ANYTHING!!!!!!

[vbak]

I agree with BevP about feeling bad if your guests went home hungry. If it is a small group for dinner then tell the hosts. A large group might pose some problems. I think it might be fun {once in a while!} to let meat take the back seat. Vicky

[kwormann]

Originally posted by Grace
Um, Phoebe? Can I just say that I love you?!! MWAHHH (Big kiss!) (And no, not THAT kind of love....YOU know what I mean!) XXOO :D :D :D Please don't ever go anywhere - we NEED you here! Oh, and if you ever invite me over to your house for dinner....I'll eat ANYTHING!!!!!!


NO you dont Grace.....I want to go to Phoebe's house for dinner!!!!!

[ginny177]

I am probably closer to Phoebe's generation than most of our posters. But, most of my friends now ask when they invite people for dinner if they have any food allergies.
Many of us are on medicatons or have health conditions which require some restrictions. So we ask up front.
Specially if it's someone we've never invited before.
If dining with a hostess who happens to serve foods we should not eat, we make do (without drawing attention) with the things we can safely eat.
If our problem is really severe, I think we should inform our hostess before arriving & offer to eat at home first but come to enjoy teh good company.

[lhall]

I always try to remember to ask if there any special likes/dislikes/allergies when I have anyone over. I am also never offended if someone can't eat something. I think you should let your host know if there is something you can't eat for medical and/or religious reasons.

I am allergic to zucchini so I always make sure I let the host know before hand. I know it's a very popular vegetable, but it's not worth the hives. I also always ask at resturants if their "mixed veggies" have it since most do. As for things I don't really like I'll just not eat those.

As for religious reasons, I would feel terrible if I fixed pork for someone did not eat it. I have several jewish friends and feel it's proper to respect their religions.

[KValley]

IMO the "socially correct" thing to do is to ask your intended guests if they have any dietary restrictions or dislikes. Simple to do and the problem is solved. That doesn't guarantee that they will like what you prepare- personal tastes can't always be accounted for- but at least it will not offend their sensibilities nor put them at risk.

But forget socially correct- cooking for friends is a display of affection, caring, a way to show interest in them. For heaven's sakes, what is the point of inviting people to dine if you are not making a meal you believe (hope) will please them?!?

I have very little tolerance for picky eaters, but if you truly have an aversion to certain foods, tell me!! My dad's SO can't handle garlic (which is a staple food in our house), so be it- there's plenty of ways to work around that. I cooked this summer for friends- one was a vegetarian who doesn't like most vegetables, the other ate only fish, but can't handle dairy. How's that for a challenge! It forced me to get creative and we ate like kings the entire weekend.

Not only do we need to be good hosts, but we need to be gracious guests, as well. I have lived in cultures (Asian and Muslim) in which the guest was treated in the way that Phoebe described and served the best of what they had to offer. Many times this included food that was still alive or was prepared in rather vile ways. I ate it, because to refuse would have been hurtful and offensive, even though I know it would never have been forced upon me. Excepting health conditions and religious/moral obligations, we could all learn from taking a few risks.

In my experience, this type of social/political correctness doesn't seem to extend beyond our North American borders- never have I been asked if there are foods I cannot/will not eat- only if I would eat or drink more! Maybe others have had different experiences? I know the frustration our host families abroad face in trying to accommodate the increasing numbers vegetarian/vegan U.S. American students- we've even had sessions on it at professional conferences!

A long rambling way of saying that as a host I always ask, but as a guest I never expect!

[browneye]

As a host, I always ask lots and lots of questions beforehand of my guests. I enjoy trying to please, and will go to lengths to create something that my guests will be able to enjoy. Usually, I keep it positive, like "what are some of your and your s.o's favorite things?" Then, I try to work with that. I always ask about allergies, preferences, restrictions, etc. I don't usually have more than 8 people at a time, however, because my house isn't that large.... so, it ends up not being a huge deal.
If I know someone is just plain ultra-picky, picky picky without a specific moral or philosophical/religious/health reason, I will suggest we go out to dinner at a place of their choice, or each pack a picnic and go somewhere. I refuse to get all uptight about something like that and would rather enjoy their company and not worry about it. If they are part of a larger group, I always include something they like on the menu. After that, they're on their own. I am not offended if they don't eat my entire meal.
As a guest, I am fortunate that I don't have allergies or a medical condition etc. I concur with KValley in that I eat what I am offered. I have specific reasons for eating the way I do at home, but when I am a guest, I accept what is offered. I think that is the polite thing to do. I remember one time serving dinner to another family, where the children (ages 13, 14) AND adults, were allowed to just pass on anything by saying " I don't care for that" without even knowing what it is or trying a tiny taste! They also questioned me like " I don't like onions or wine, is there any of that in this?" at the dinner table. They weren't invited back. I found it just plain rude. I had asked before they came about allergies and all that, and was told "anything's fine".
I guess what I am saying here is I partially agree with Miss Manners. If there is a health/religious/philosophical reason then SAY SO! Offer to bring something. Otherwise, keep quiet and work with what you can eat. Enjoy the company. Most of us could benefit from a smaller meal from time to time, anyway!

[lhall]

Originally posted by browneye
As a host, I always ask lots and lots of que I remember one time serving dinner to another family, where the children (ages 13, 14) AND adults, were allowed to just pass on anything by saying " I don't care for that" without even knowing what it is or trying a tiny taste!

Gee, we even make the 3 year old at least taste everything. We tell her if she does not like it she does not have to eat it, but she has to at least try it. Most of the time she ends up liking it.

Leigh

[heatherfeather]

Tracy, perhaps you misread my message: I never said that I wasted any food. On those occasions when I chose to attend a meal and only selected the vegetable dishes, I did not also load a slab of meat onto my plate "for show" and then leave it on my plate. The meat eaters in the party were more than happy to enjoy the extra portion of meat. The original message indicated dining at the home of friends which to me implied a less formal setting. The friends I dined with generally passed the serving dishes around the table and you selected whatever you preferred. In fact, many selected a larger meat portion and went very lightly on the veggies. If someone pased me a dish I chose not to eat, I simply said "no thank you." Since when is it impolite to say "no, thank you?"

I thought my original message supported parts of both sides of the issue. I must say that your response to mine was a bit hurtful. I am sorry if I offended you(or anyone else)- that was not my intent.

[tracey67]

Heather - I apologise if my response was hurtful, I wasn't trying to hurt your feelings. Instead I was trying to pose a situation where I felt it might actually be more polite to make your dietary needs known in advance to the hostess (as opposed to the idea that NOT making them known in advance is more polite).

I guess that my experience with dinner parties is the reverse of yours. For me, when the dinner party is 4 or less, the host has usually prepared the plates and brought them to the table. From MY experience, the only time that dishes are passed and everyone serves themselves, is when the party is larger than 4 people. It was this type of situation I was talking about where food could be left to go to waste on your (the general "your" - not YOU specifically) plate if the host wasn't aware of food you couldn't eat.

Once again, I wasn't trying to imply that you waste food, I was only trying to show an example of how in certain types of situations - it might really be better for the host to know a little of what you might not eat (and not "you" specifically, but "you" as in ANYONE on that end).

tracey

[kwormann]

Our ideas of small dinner parties are so interesting! I also never experienced a dinner party where the host will put the food on the plate, but I guess some of us do. I wonder where the difference lies?

I actually got after DH once when he made dinner for me and my 2 girlfriends. In his quest to make a pretty plate, he put the dinner there. I reminded him he put WAY too much food for us to eat and now we wouldnt be able to use it as leftovers. I was also afraid they would stuff themselves not to hurt our feelings. I guess that is why I always do buffet or family style:)

[BlueMoose]

I always ask about specific dietary needs when I'm having people over ( which isn't very often ;) ).

As a somewhat "picky" eater....don't eat meat, don't like really heavy cream-laden and fried foods (like Phoebe, I believe said, they make me sick!) what I think is really rude is when I politely say "no thank you" and the host doesn't listen. They repeatedly try to force food. My DH's grandmother is really bad about that! I don't like to eat desserts after a meal very much (because I hate feeling really full) and she will push it until you practically have to be rude to her!

My apologies for the terrible sentence structure ( I know how that bothers some of you! ;) :p I'll try better next time!

Chrisi :)

[schuh]

I agree with those who said that the responsibility lies with the hostess. When I'm having newcomers to my home, I always ask if they have any dietary restrictions. As an example, I've had some people tell me they avoid red meat and that's fine with me.

My husband is a fussy eater AND has several dietary restrictions due to ulcerative colitis. When I'm asked about our dietary restrictions, I'll tell people about stuff he can't eat due to the colitis (caffeine, chocolate, corn, nuts), but as for the fussy stuff, he's on his own. But if I'm not asked, I usually do not bring it up myself. He usually can find something to eat.

I do think a person with a life-threatening allergy or condition, however, has an obligation to call it to the attention of the host. There's nothing like a call to 911 to ruin a party.

[JHolcomb]

I was a vegetarian in college. My reactions to what were served to me depended on the situation. For example, I lived with a family in Ireland for a few days before I moved into my flat. They made dinner, which turned out to be spaghetti and meat sauce. Dessert was canned pears. Technically nothing I would eat, since I was a veg and since I hate, hate, hate canned fruit, especially canned pears, which make me gag in most situations. But I felt that it was really, really imporatant to eat what they put in front of me than to offend anyone. They had obviously worked really hard to think of what two teenaged girls from America would like to eat for dinner, and I wasn't about to sit there eating noodles. I gagged it down, it was gross,but I got over it. It's not like I was Kosher or allergic. However, I did date this real creep for awhile who knew I was a veg, but he would take me out to restaurants (cheap ones, mind you) that had no veg option and he would cook non veg meals for me. It made me really mad. I would usually sit at the table and eat a handful of noodles with a little olive oil, pouting all the while. Anyway, I guess this only proves that my morals are conditional and that I don't see the world in black and white, so I can't even answer your question about Miss Manners 'cause I think it depends on the situation all around.

[Mbart]

I love this thread, and I love this BB! I love all of these different answers. Phoebe, thanks for the re-mind! You are absolutely correct, and I'm glad you pointed it out - quite poetically, I might add! I'm going to have to remind myself of your response the next time I eat with my in-law. I guess I'm not even quite sure why her pickiness bothers me, particularly on those occassions when we are eating out or dining at someone else's house. It's no skin off my nose whether she eats certain things or not, so why do I care? I honestly can't tell you. It just seems so odd to me, but still that's no reason to have it concern me. Hmmmm...I think I shall need to ponder this awhile...

[LGBurns]

Whew. A lot of thought has been put into this thread. Quite a bit to chew on (pun intended).

I half agree with Ms. Manners. I always ask my guests (although at this point, I know most of my guests allergies/preferences). I taste everything that's put in front of me as a guest (although I may not finish it ;) ). I would never mention why I didn't finish/eat something. That IMHO is the height of rudeness. And what I'm imagining is what some people on this thread have mentioned witnessing, people responding "I don't care for that" or "I don't like [fill in the blank]". All that is required is "no thank you" or silence.

Finally, when a guest is very picky (and I have some friends who are), I don't think it's any more polite to deprive the entire dinner party of something yummy in order to accomodate one person than it is to deprive that one person of anything to eat. In that instance, I usually try to make sure there is enough other food for the picky person to enjoy if he/she must pass on the food he/she dislikes. Obviously, this doesn't count if he/she is the only guest.

[luv2cook]

When I have people over that I don't know well, I always ask if there are any allergies or any food that they absolutely can't stand. Food is too expensive to waste and I prefer to ask to ensure everyone is comfortable.

If they're really good friends, I know what they like and don't like so it's really not an issue. And I have no problem with someone reminding me about an allergy - like my new friend Kathy who is allergic to pine nuts or my SIL who hates onions....

Oh, as for serving, unless it's a large group, I put the food on the plate. Always have. Usually everyone is right there in the kitch anyway (sniffing, waiting with baited breath - NOT)and if they're standing there I'll say how much would you like?

[Little Bit]

I've been thinking about my opinions on this one. Hmmm ... .

On the one hand, I think guests have a responsibility not to impose their more childish preferences on their hosts, not to talk on and on at the dinner table about how the main course now being served makes them gag, not to pout. They have a responsibility to behave, in short, like a guest, grateful for the hospitality on offer, and willing to tolerate the food being served. The way I see it, the 'mere politeness' of the words 'no, thank you' is plenty good enough for one evening, and ought to be used by guests and accepted by their host when and where appropriate.
The difficulties of being polite are not without their perils. I can't tell you how annoying it is to eat dinner at a friends home, where they are serving foods I dislike, allow/force myself to eat them, and then find the exact same item being offered a year and a half later, 'because you enjoyed it so much' the first time they'd served it. This kind of thing happens because both host AND guest haven't communicated very well. :o

As a host, I want to serve foods my guests will enjoy, that won't make them gag, that won't remind them of all the awful meals their parental units forced them to endure, that won't trigger a fatal allergy attack, etc., but it's up to the host and the guest to communicate with each other to keep unpleasant meals away from the table we'll share together.

Would I refuse sweetbreads if they were offered? YES! Would I stifle the urge to lecture the table about the dangers involved in eating brains? Hmmm... . That one's more difficult.
:confused:

[AD]

I think the right thing to do depends on the situation. It would depend on how well I knew someone, how formal the event was, how many people would be there, and what the occasion or event was.

Luckily, this doesn't apply to me. I never eat at other people's houses. Call me strange, but I only eat in private, except maybe at Thanksgiving or Christmas. I just don't feel comfortable eating when I know someone is watching me eat. I also feel uncomfortable watching other people eat.

I do suffer chronic digestive discomfort, and I'm probably pickier than most toddlers!