Organic Foods

[Alisa]

There was a lively discussion going on over at the Healthy Living Board regarding organic foods - it didn't get too much traffic and I thought it deserved a thread all its own.

So who eats organic - and most of all, why/why not?? I know this can be a volatile subject, but I think it's an important isssue, and I'm certain we can learn from each other as we have on so many other topics.

[LGBurns]

Great poll idea! Thanks for thinking of it.

Before I talk about why I answered the way I did I want to preface this by saying: to each his/her own -- people have many good reasons for not eating organic too. I don't want anyone to feel I'm attacking anyone who doesn't eat organic.

That said: anyone who doesn't eat organic is a moron. ;)

Okay: I'll be serious now. I have several reasons to try to eat organic as often as I can:

1) Personal Health: the more I learn about the dangers of pesticides to our health (particularly to children) the more convinced I am to try to eat organic whenever I can. I plan to be even more vigilant about eating organic if I ever am pregnant and I will definitely try to feed my kids as much organic food as possible.

2) Earth Health: Agricultural run-off is one of the largest contributing factors to water pollution.

3) Health of other people: The antibiotics fed to animals simply to make them grow bigger and produce more milk/eggs (there is no health reason to feed animals antibiotics) are contributing to the development of multi-drug resistent microbes which is probably the largest impending threat to human health. Additionally, farm workers, arguably the poorest and most marginalized work force in our country, have to breath in unhealthy pesticides.

Reasons I have to answer "when ever I can" rather than "all the time":

1) organics are unfortunately very expensive. I am not wealthy and sometimes have to choose between my health and my pocket book.

2) sometimes I can't find organic items.

A great alternative way to get organic produce for those who are interested: Community Supported Agriculture. Local organic farms sell shares in their farm. In exchange for purchasing a share, shareowners get a delivery of produce from the farm during the harvest season. This allows farmers to rely on a steady income and people to get extremely fresh and interesting organic produce, sometimes delivered directly to their doors. Most of the time the cost is even cheaper than buying organic produce at Whole Foods or Fresh Fields.

I'm really interested to see what everyone else contributes to the thread.

[kima]

Hi Alisa!
I really enjoyed the discussion about organic food over at the Healthy Living Board. The points made were rational and succint on both "sides"- just the way a good debate should be.
I go back and forth on the issue. My heart tells me organic is best but then I hear the science and I am just not sure. I mean we must all be full of bad chemicals (years of junk food eating as a child speaking!!) and the air we breathe must be full of toxins etc. I sometimes wonder if eatinga bit of organic produce really makes a difference. I do believe the values and benefits of organic are worth supporting(see how confused I am on the subject) so if the price is within 10-20% of conventional then I buy it. My first choice is always local- organic or not. Some things like grapes I always buy organic- again my rational is confused but reading about all the chemicals sprayed on them stuck. Now does it make sense to buy organic grapes and then buy conventional apples? No. I think most of us are all over the map on this.
I cooked for a woman who was dying of breast cancer for a few months. She insisted that every thing be organic. I did her grocery shopping as well- wow were the bills high! But for her it was worth it (very sadly she did die- and she was only 43).
Personally (and I am not preaching) I feel that by being a vegetarian I am avoiding some of the most unhealthy things- the chemicals and antibiotics found in meat. I highly recommend Diet For A New America by John Robbins. It changed my life.

[Gail]

In the 1950's when I was a child, about the only vegetables I remember getting were canned. I figure that nearly fifty years down the road, between all the x-rays I've had and all the chemicals I've ingested, I probably make a dandy night light by now!

Seriously, we ate what we ate because it was convenient and we didn't know any better. Now that I have the option NOT to include pesticides and additives in my diet, I prefer buying organic as much as possible. Call me nuts, but I think most of the organics TASTE better...

[AD]

I couldn't care less if it's organic. There are some hard-to-find items that I can only get at organic health food stores though, like barley malt syrup, so I take whatever I can find.

[jan83]

It was only a year ago that I was outraged at gentically modified foods - but today, as a young biology student, I'm learning much more about genetics and it really isn't as horrible as it seems. In fact, I see great promise in the responsible use of genetics.

For example, if someone were to tell you that the corn you are contained fish genes, there is really not reason to feel disgust (even as a vegetarian - which I am). Genes are really composed of the same material and carry the same essential function within all organisms. It's just a whole lot of worry and hype about nothing. I highly doubt that eating GMOs will give way for a mutant race of humans or anything to that extent.

Also, most pesticides can be washed off under the tap at home. I was watching a news report where they tested fruit that had been rinsed under a tap and an independent lab found no (or virtually none) traces of pesticides.

I just feel that this is a horrible way for companies to prey on uneducated consumers' fears and convince them to buy "organic". Is it so horrible to eat a seedless grape? I could easily breed a seedless grape with a couple of grape seeds right at home - and that would be genetically modifying it. My point is that we should not jump to drastic conclusions about GMOs. Who knows, I mean wouldn't it be fabulous to go to the grocery store someday and buy a cancer-fighting apple? :p

[JillC]

I eat organic whenever possible--for the same reasons that LGBurns posted. I feel lucky that my regular supermarket carries a lot of organic produce and also has a great natural food section. This summer we joined a CSA and have been enjoying fresh organic produce from them since April--and it's still coming! I also grow a few vegetables and herbs in the yard, organically of course.
You know, I've heard other people say that pesticides just rinse right off of produce with just water. It just doesn't make sense to me--then wouldn't they just wash off every time it rained or they received irrigation? That seems like a terrible waste and even more of an affront to the environment!
I really wish the studies showing organic is safer were more broadly accepted. I'm not usually one of those paranoid, the-government-is-after-me type of people, but I really think the US Department of Agriculture is on the side of pesticide manufacturers and agri-industry (or whatever the correct term is) instead of supporting small, independent farmers.
If any of you are on the fence, I'd recommend looking at a few issues of OG (Organic Gardening magazine was split into OG and Organic Lifestyle). They have interesting articles backed up by sound, responsible science (fair warning, the editors do get up on their soapbox).
Jill

[KValley]

JillC, kima and LGBurns have all expressed my feelings (plus I expressed more of my own on the other thread ;)) I buy when I can, when it is available and affordable. It is easier here to find processed organic food (cereals, flours, soups, etc), than produce and meat, especially in the winter months and early spring before the Farmer's Market gets underway. I agree with Gail- I think it does taste better! All that wonderful compost :)

I chose organic not so much for my own health- research has not borne out that organic foods are nutritionally superior and pesticides are one of those worries I add to my "wide-awake-at-3:00 a.m." list, although I would be far more diligent if I was pregnant. My choice is primarily out of concern for the environment and wanting to support responsible and sustainable agriculture, smaller farms, and local farmers.

Jan, I appreciate what you have said about GMOs. I am torn on this issue- one could argue that most of what we consume has been genetically modified -since humankind began farming, we have practiced genetic modification. Certainly as a lover of wine, I would be a hypocrite to express complete disdain for GMO- most of the vines in France are the ancestors of American vines, which were grafted after France was hit by phylloxera in the late 1800s. It's a complex issue.

Thanks Alisa :)- I look forward to hearing from others and learning from you

Julie

[Grace]

I don't go out of my way to find organic produce. I DO however, belong to one of the CSA's that produces only organic vegetables, and I get my 3/4 bushel box every week. It's a lot of produce, and it's wonderful.

Now that the box is done for the year, I will go back to buying my fruits and veggies at the fruit markets or grocery stores. My grocery store carries organic veggies, but they don't always look so nice, and when they do, they are SUPER expensive, so I typically pass on them.

I guess I believe that organic is better for all the reasons above, but I just must not be convinced that they are THAT much better....my thinking runs more to the fact that just eating lots of fruits and veggies (organic or not) is the healthy way to go, and the real health culprits are all those processed foods and sweets that fill up 80% of the grocery stores. So I guess I just feel content when I roll my grocery cart up to the check out and it's filled with as much natural, healthy stuff as possible, and I don't worry much about the organic part of the equation (maybe I should??? :confused: )

[HRJ]

I agree with most of what's been written here so far. I'm fortunate enough to live in an area where we have grocery stores like Wild Oats and Bread & Circus, plus numerous farmer's markets and year-round produce stands. So I could eat organic 100 percent of the time, if I really made the effort -- but, as mentioned, it would be more expensive.

When it comes to produce, I agree with Grace -- eating lots of fruits and vegetables, no matter what type, is so much better than lots of processed stuff. I've also found that I just like the taste, quality and nutritional makeup of certain organic products, like yogurt, milk or bread. And, I really worry about the use of growth hormones and antibiotics in farm animals -- from what I've read, that's a significant issue.

I do support the environmental/political/socioeconomic angles for buying organic products, as many of you already mentioned. Mostly, I try to buy local, because I think it's important to support small agriculture, and local *always* tastes better, in my opinion - why eat an apple that's been flown across the country, when I can get one that was grown five miles from here? (I was in one of those "organic" supermarkets the other day, and most of their produce was from across the country or overseas -- I just can't understand that.)

Last year, we moved to a new house and for the first time, I had enough land to grow a vegetable garden. I used organic techniques, and the results were fantastic! But I know that's not possible for everyone, and it still didn't cover all our needs.

This is a great topic for discussion -- I'm also interested in what else you folks read to get information on topics like organics/GMO, etc.

[mb]

i don't usually think too much about using organic vs. not. i don't really buy any organic fruits and veggies because i usually just buy from the farmers market here...it is tasty and inexpensive. i've bought organic yogurt a few times, and it is good, but i don't usually go out of my way to get it. i like yoplait just fine ;) i know it is probably better to eat organic stuff for health reasons, but i just don't. and i'm sure if everyone bought organic, then the prices might go down a bit.

however, DD will be able to start eating foods soon (she is 5 months old) and i plan to make baby food for her. when i do, i'm going to try to use only organic produce for her food. we'll see what happens.

i guess in general i don't have a good attitude about organics vs. not. in other words, i'm sure there are all kinds of chemicals all over the food i eat, but since i can't SEE it, i don't really worry about it. maybe 50 years from now i'll be wishing i ate organic only. i do trust that the government is keeping americans as safe as possible, but then again, chemists used to wash their hands in benzene and that was considered safe...

hmmm... this thread has given me a lot to think about! should be interesting to see how people vote!

marisa :)

[food girl]

Originally posted by Grace


I guess I believe that organic is better for all the reasons above, but I just must not be convinced that they are THAT much better....my thinking runs more to the fact that just eating lots of fruits and veggies (organic or not) is the healthy way to go, and the real health culprits are all those processed foods and sweets that fill up 80% of the grocery stores. So I guess I just feel content when I roll my grocery cart up to the check out and it's filled with as much natural, healthy stuff as possible, and I don't worry much about the organic part of the equation (maybe I should??? :confused: )

Grace,

Maybe we are twins! I couldn't have said it better.

Lisa:D

[beckms]

I feel vaguely like I should buy organic produce, but it's usually almost twice as expensive! So I never buy it unless there isn't anything else.

but I've been reading the posts with great interest. I'm preparing to apply to veterinary school, where I hope to pursue my interests in wildlife/environmental conservation and habitat maintenaince, which generally ties right into "green" awareness and protection.

I live in the greater Boston area...does anyone know of any Community Supported Agriculture groups areound here? I would love to participate, if it doesn't break my already broken budget...

[Varaile]

I haven't had the opportunity yet to thank KValley and Lorilei for the links provided in the "Do you tailor you diet to prevent disease" thread which had sort of warped into a organic foods discussion. Thank you for the links! :)

My DH and I have been discussing this topic over the past week, and it got me to wondering. For you folks who prefer to eat organic, what do you do when it comes to canned items? Do the co-ops and organic/healthy sections at grocery stores provide you with organic canned goods? I'm thinking along the lines of canned tomatos and pumpkin type goods. I do frequent my co-op for bulk type items but I have never wandered down the canned isle.

Grace made the comment that at her grocery store the organic produce sometimes doesn't look all that nice and is expensive. I made this same comment to my DH and his reply was of course it doesn't look nice! Regular produce is made to look pretty so people will buy it. I felt silly....:rolleyes: How true, I know my purchase of this vegi or that all depends on how it looks.

When it comes right down to it, I just try to eat as many natural, unprocessed (or minimally processed foods - but not organic) as possible. IMO eating my 5 fruits and vegis a day is going to have way more health benefits than worrying about how that produce got to the store.

For those of you just joining this thread, please take a moment and check out the Healthy Living BB thread I mentioned above for some interresting discussion on this same topic.

Thanks!

[AD]

Varaile,
To answer one question, I know Muir Glen has a variety of canned tomato products that I believe are organic. I have seem them at nearly every grocery store in my area.

[Varaile]

Ahhh!

Suddenly it becomes very clear to me! The name Muir Glen is frequently mentioned on this board and in recipes in the CL magazine. I was wondering why I wasn't finding it at the grocery store when they carry just about every other brand. I didn't know it was organic-produce based.

Okay! Thanks for the info.

Anybody else? What do you do if you prefer to eat organic foods and you need to buy a canned item? Does your local co-op or health food section at the grocery store provide the items you need? Or are you able to make your own/do without?

[beejayw1]

Originally posted by Grace
I guess I believe that organic is better for all the reasons above, but I just must not be convinced that they are THAT much better....

A true story:

My brother's FIL, who happens, as well, to be the next-door-neighbor at an upstate New York lake famous for its wines, is a farmer with several hundred acres of vineyards. He's a big supplier for some of the better known NY State wines, as well as some of the littler, 'boutique' ones.

Not surprisingly, he uses pesticides and fertilizers on his vines.

A couple years ago he came to us scratching his head. It was the end of the grape season, and a wine company that is famous for using no sulfites, or anything not organic, contacted him to contract for several tons of grapes. Could he help them?

He said he could, but then said, "I think you should know that the grapes are not organically grown."

"Oh, that's OK," they said. "We can work around it."

The conversation went on a while longer, with the wine company repeating their comment. They ended up buying the grapes. :rolleyes:

So, the moral of the story is to be very sure that what you are buying as 'organic' really is organic!

[lorilei]

Agreeing with Julie, Gail and others supporting organic products ... I also want to point out that buying organic produce has to be part of an effort overall to reduce the amount of "junk" one is consuming. Eating organic in and of itself is not going to save me from disease, but it is a step in the right direction.

I came to buy organic step-by-step. I started by eliminating non-organic dairy and meat products (due to BGH's, other hormones and antibiotics). Then, I gradually moved to add organic produce.

Something I found helpful was a list of the top 10 most pesticide-ridden foods. These were the ones I started with:

Apples
Grapes
Peppers - The FDA found that in 1993, 38% of the peppers from Mexico, which provides 98% of the US, had two or more toxic pesticides.
Peaches
Green Beans
Spinach
Strawberries
Cantaloupes (except Mexican grown)
Oats
Rice - Water-soluble herbicides and insecticides have contaminated the groundwater near rice fields

And, though it didn't affect me, BABY FOOD was also on the list.

Many of these, even though dangerous (and illegal) pesticides are no longer sprayed directly onto the fruit are growing in soil (or sustained with water) with residual chemicals in it (so the chemicals actually permeate the flesh of the fruit/veggies). I do feel it is important to try to eliminate as many of these as possible -- to save the environment (protect soil erosion, maintain water quality, save energy) and protect myself from unnecessary harm.

Similarly, I feel very good about supporting small farmers who plant and harvest with a great deal of integrity... AND produce a great product.


Beejayw1 and others:

There are actually some indicators to watch for when buying organic products -- not all "organic" products are made completely from organic ingredients (hence the wine story).

Organic labeling standards were recently adopted by the Department of Agriculture and welcomed by those in the organic industry include:

* 100 percent organic -- products that contain only organic ingredients. A label reading "100 percent organic" and the USDA organic seal can appear on the primary display panel.

* Organic -- products that are at least 95 percent organic, excluding water or salt. A label reading "organic" and the USDA organic seal can appear on the package. The 5 percent of the product that is not organic must be from materials that are not commercially available as organic, or nonagricultural materials approved on the National List.

* Made with organic ingredients -- products that are processed with at least 70 percent organic ingredients, excluding water and salt. As many as three of the ingredients may be listed on the front of the package. A label reading "Made with organic ingredients" can appear on the primary display panel. The USDA organic seal cannot be used on these products.

* All three categories must be certified by a USDA-accredited organic certification agency. The name and address of the certifying agent must be displayed on the information panel. A civil penalty of up to $10,000 can be levied on any person who knowingly makes organic claims for products not produced and handeled in accordance with the organic regulations.

* Less than 70 percent organic -- these products can list organic ingredients on the ingredient statement, but the product cannot use the term organic anywhere else on the package.


oh, yes... and to answer your question: My DH and I have been discussing this topic over the past week, and it got me to wondering. For you folks who prefer to eat organic, what do you do when it comes to canned items? Do the co-ops and organic/healthy sections at grocery stores provide you with organic canned goods? I'm thinking along the lines of canned tomatos and pumpkin type goods. I do frequent my co-op for bulk type items but I have never wandered down the canned isle.

Yes, there are many organic canned (and frozen) products which are available -- pumpkin, veggies, beans... in recent years, almost everything you can get in the grocery store has an organic counterpart. Some brands: SEEDS OF CHANGE, SPECTRUM, AMY's, SHELTON's, NATURAL VALUE, WALNUT ACRES...

[beejayw1]

Originally posted by lorilei
Beejayw1 and others:

There are actually some indicators to watch for when buying organic products -- not all "organic" products are made completely from organic ingredients (hence the wine story).

The point of the wine incident is that the winemaker was supposed to be in compliance all down the line; in this case, however, it was not. It just goes to show that you have to check things out and not take labels on faith.

[lorilei]

Originally posted by beejayw1

The point of the wine incident is that the winemaker was supposed to be in compliance all down the line; in this case, however, it was not. It just goes to show that you have to check things out and not take labels on faith.

I see -- well, if the winemaker was indeed supposed to be certifiably 100% organic, then there is definitely a conflict of interest.

There are just so many winemakers who use "transitional" grapes or simply label their foods as "organic" (not needing 100% compliance) that I figured that might be the situation here...


This issue of misleading labels always reminds me of the "apple" instant oatmeal that doesn't contain any apples... and the chicken soup with no chicken...

[heeter]

Grace - what's a CSA and is it some kind of mail order organic vege's.

Thanks - Heather

[Grace]

Hi Heather. CSA stands for Community Supported Agriculture. Basically, small farmers have a hard time making money because they are dependent upon whether they have good weather, no insect infestations, etc., as to whether they will get big enough yields to make a big enough profit. As everyone knows, small farmers are going out of business at alarming rates. A new concept was developed whereby the farmer sells "shares" in his farm in advance. He only sells as many shares as he believes his farm will be able to support (meaning if he thinks he'll have enough vegetables for 100 people, he'll only sell 100 shares). When you buy a share, you are then entitled to your portion of the crops the next year (be they a bumper crop or a not-so-great crop). This allows the farmer to still make his money regardless of the outcome, and also helps him to plan better, buy better equipment, (because he has his money upfront), which ultimately leads to better quality veggies.

In the CSA I belong to, you sign up for 20 weeks, beginning in mid-May, and continuing to mid-November. The farm is fairly local (within two hours of Chicago), and they offer several pick up locations, which you choose when you sign up. Then on a specified day (for me it was Wednesday), my 3/4 bushel box of organically grown and SUPER fresh veggies would arrive at my pick up location. There is a newsletter that comes along with the box that gives information about the farm, recipes for using items in the box, etc. You never really know what you're going to get, obviously what's ripe and ready that particular week, and it's just like normal - lettuces, greens, etc. in the Spring, tomatoes, cucumbers, beets, etc. in the Summer, squashes, cabbages, onions, in the fall, and so on. I also got lots of veggies I wasn't that familiar with actually cooking with (chard, kale, kohlrabi, among many others), but I actually LOVED that part of it, as it forced me to experiment with stuff I may never have bought in my life otherwise, and there were lots of herbs as well.

Most CSA's that I am aware of use organic farming techniques, so I especially like that aspect too. My CSA box is over for the season now, but I have already signed up for next year, I was so pleased. I used to look forward to Wednesdays like it was Xmas or something! And opening the box and looking through to see what treasures I would get was especially fun, as was searching through my CL software for recipes using all these wonderful vegetables! We ate more vegetables (and are continuing that now) than we ever did before the box. Everything always looked so wonderful and fresh and appetizing, there was no way I could allow any of it to go to waste. But I did have to give some of it away sometimes, as it was really quite a lot for just two people.

Long winded as usual, but I hope that helps!

Here is the link to my CSA, which gives more info:

www.angelicorganics.com

[gertdog]

I do worry about pesticides on foods, but I am not at all consistent in my buying habits.

I only eat fresh strawberries in season, and I buy from local organic farmers. If I eat frozen strawberries, I only use the organic ones from Cascadian Farms. I think I've just heard so much about pesticides and chemicals on strawberries that I've made a complete switch.

During the summer, I almost exclusively buy produce at our local farmer's market, and I buy only from organic farm vendors. But during the rest of the year, I tend to buy what looks best at the supermarket. My market (Wegman's) has a very decent selection of organic produce, but as others have mentioned, it is expensive and sometimes just doesn't look as good as the non-organic stuff.

I've also belonged to a CSA farm for several years (that's Community Supported Agriculture... you buy a share in a farm, or sometimes work for the farm a bit, and get regular payouts of produce through the growing season). The farm is organic and the produce is much better quality than in the store.

[Gina O]

I checked the "as often as I can" box, which is a lot more frequent now that there is a Whole Foods in St. Louis. Before that, my primary choice was my usual grocery store, and often their veggies and fruits did not look all that fresh.

I stated most of my reasons on the other thread, but to sum up, it generally makes me feel better to know that I am "doing no harm" by eating organic.

I had once heard that iceburg lettuce was pesticide ridden. Does anyone have any information on this? Gina

[KathrynY]

I just came back to this thread to read more about CSA farms. I thought others might be interested in this link to a USDA site on CSA (originally posted by Susan, on another thread): http://www.nal.usda.gov/afsic/csa/ . There's a database on the site that you can search to find a CSA farm near you. :)

[mame]

I second the recomendation for John Robbin's Diet for a New America. We read that over the weekend actually. Wow. What an eye opener. We have been really serious about being vegetarians for the last 6 months or so. (We had kind of dabbled in it before.) Up until recently, we bought organic when we made it to the Whole Foods, Wild Oats or Farmers Market--all in st. Louis and all a fair drive for food. We also only buy organic eggs. However, we are now going to make a much bigger effort. But, we also feel that we make the biggest difference in our lives, and in the environment by eliminating as much animal products as possible. Until we completely give up cheese, eggs, and yogurt--need time to transition, those will ONLY be organic. Any more information on CSA's would be greatly appreciated.

[kima]

Glad to hear that someone else was moved to change by Diet For A New America . My Dh read that book in1987 and has not touched meat or chicken since then. I know Robbins feels we should all be vegans and I just can't go that far. I am not a vegetarian zealot by any means but I think if everyone read that book they would at least cut back in the meat department. Thanks for your post mame!!:)

[ChristineLiu]

You can say that I am a non-believer of organic foods. here are my reasons: there's no proof that organic farming is better for the environment and that organic food is better for the consumer. Why? By using only organic pesticides, organic farmers actually have to use MORE pesticides during farming, which can be taken up in the foods and soil. therefore, more pesticides gets into the environment. Also, manure is used for organic farming. Manure harbors lots and lots of diasease causing germs, both for humans and crop. With the use of manure, more pesticides have to be used, and it's like a vicious cycle.

I agree with another member who is a biolgoy student--there's no reason to fear genetically engineered/modified foods. This is probably hard for a lot of you to understand, but we have been eating GMF for decades! Why do you think red delicious apples and tomatoes are so large and sweet and seedless fruits are seedless? Anything that's bigger and better have been gneetically modified, usually by selecting for a natural mutant variant that occurred and cultivated. If we can add vitamine A and D to milk, why not add it to rice?

[Kahlico]

I've been a big supporter for organic for a few years now mainly because it tends to support the local, smaller farms and because it's much less processed. I convinced DH to switch to organic milk a few years back and although I'm not as uptight about buying all organic as I was, say, a year ago, I still buy organic for the most part. I'll not buy nonorganic strawberries (but I will buy from a couple I know doesn't use pesticides), cantaloupes, apples, spinach, grapes, peaches, bananas or raspberries. The pesticide issue is a pretty big factor as well but I've noticed a taste difference as well. If you've ever compared an organic banana to a conventionally grown one, the nonorganic one will have a bit of a grey cast to it. Conventionally grown bananas are gassed to give them a vivid yellow color and to make them ripen faster. I've found the cost to be comparable in most cases, especially in seasonal fruit. If it's December and you check the cost of a pint of organic raspberries of course they're going to be $5 or higher.

just my 2 cents :)

[eas11]

Originally posted by beckms
..............I live in the greater Boston area...does anyone know of any Community Supported Agriculture groups areound here? I would love to participate, if it doesn't break my already broken budget...

Beckms,
Here's a list of CSA's in MA. Check them out carefully because they vary a lot. I would bet there's a drop off in Arlington from a few that do drop off in addition to pick up and/or pick your own.

CSA's in MA (http://ma.nofa.org/csa.html)

Ellyn

[lorilei]

Originally posted by ChristineLiu
You can say that I am a non-believer of organic foods. here are my reasons: there's no proof that organic farming is better for the environment and that organic food is better for the consumer. Why? By using only organic pesticides, organic farmers actually have to use MORE pesticides during farming, which can be taken up in the foods and soil. therefore, more pesticides gets into the environment. Also, manure is used for organic farming. Manure harbors lots and lots of diasease causing germs, both for humans and crop. With the use of manure, more pesticides have to be used, and it's like a vicious cycle.


I think you'll need to educate me about this. For as much as you would prefer that people not waste their money on organic foods that haven't been "proven" advantageous to the environment, I (as a supporter of organic farming and CSA's) would appreciate it if we didn't make the general population "run scared" needlessly.

What's this about the harm of Organic pesticides? Or are we talking about the environmentally friendly substances used to control pests in an organic garden (vinegar, herbs, other pests like ladybugs, organic compounds, amino acids and enzymes)? All of these substances are harmless to the environment... unlike commercial pesticides.

And the manure issue -- many organic farmers DO NOT use manure (due to increased risk of pollution by antibiotics), but instead rely on organic composting for fertilization. Others that DO use manure won't be using FRESH manure (which harbors disease). Manure sources for organic plots are well composted to maximize weed seed kill and residual disease carryover.

Organic food production is as much a state of mind as it is a production system. The biggest barrier most people face when switching to organic production is the change in thinking that must occur to make it successful. We have long been taught to treat individual insects and diseases separately instead of looking at things as a whole. The organic gardener must understand how everything is inter-related and how one set of circumstances will influence other factors in how the plant grows. Prevention is the first and best defense against pests in organic vegetable production.

There has been a perception by some people that organic vegetable production is farming through neglect. Nothing could be further from the truth! A strong, healthy plant is much more important in an organic system then a conventional system.

[sherri]

Kima
Based on one of your recommendations I read Food Revolution and it really changed my life also! I will not eat meat or chicken again. It is amazing the negative response I have gotten from people about this. I think people think vegetarians have bland, awful diets which is the exact opposite. I would love for people in my family to read the book, but honestly I don't think they will....that is too bad.

[ChristineLiu]

This is a good article on organic vs. non-organic farming with proper citations for anyone interested-- http://www.nature.com/cgi-taf/DynaPage.taf?file=/nature/journal/v410/n6827/full/410409a0_fs.html

Judge for yourself why you choose to eat what you eat. I came up with my conclusion (no organic food) after reading this and related articles. When someone can prove to me for certain that organic farming is definitely superior than conventional farming, then I will switch over to support organic farming.

For those unfamiliar with this journal, every scientist wants to publish in this journal.

[lorilei]

Originally posted by ChristineLiu
This is a good article on organic vs. non-organic farming with proper citations for anyone interested-- http://www.nature.com/cgi-taf/DynaPage.taf?file=/nature/journal/v410/n6827/full/410409a0_fs.html

Judge for yourself why you choose to eat what you eat. I came up with my conclusion (no organic food) after reading this and related articles. When someone can prove to me for certain that organic farming is definitely superior than conventional farming, then I will switch over to support organic farming.

For those unfamiliar with this journal, every scientist wants to publish in this journal.

I agree wholeheartedly with the sentiment "to each his own" with regard to organic products and GMO's... but I also feel that, in order to educate ourselves, we need to know our information. And be aware of biases.

The author of this article, Anthony Trewavas, is a respected English Biologist. He is also a huge proponant of Genetically Engineered products.

Of Trewavas, a colleague of his, Dr. Arpad Pusztai once commented (particularly on a study that used FDA data):

"I find it incredible that a senior scientist such as Tony Trewavas can quote this rubbish about a billion people eating GM food without any ill effect. If food is unlabelled as it is in the USA, there is no way to monitor who eats what and how much. He should know how to design a scientific experiment and therefore he ought to know that this cannot be regarded even as a botched experiment without overstating its value. " (07 March 2002, NGIN Bulletin)

[leightx]

Originally posted by lorilei



The author of this article, Anthony Trewavas, is a respected English Biologist. He is also a huge proponant of Genetically Engineered products.

Of Trewavas, a colleague of his, Dr. Arpad Pusztai once commented (particularly on a study that used FDA data):

"I find it incredible that a senior scientist such as Tony Trewavas can quote this rubbish about a billion people eating GM food without any ill effect. If food is unlabelled as it is in the USA, there is no way to monitor who eats what and how much. He should know how to design a scientific experiment and therefore he ought to know that this cannot be regarded even as a botched experiment without overstating its value. " (07 March 2002, NGIN Bulletin)

After reading WAAAAY to many science journals in grad school, I can say without a doubt that Nature is probably the most well respected general science journal published. I'm not even sure what NGIN Bulletin is, but I would certainly not equate being published in it to being published in Nature.

Scientists are not perfect, and will often resort to name-calling if it promotes their own research. However, for Nature to publish an article, it has been peer reviewed by many other scientists in the field (never having been published by Nature, I can't say for sure how many). The scientists who review the articles are generally unbiased - the professor I worked for was often asked to review articles submitted by others in direct competition with his work, and therefore his job! I guess what I'm trying to say, is that an article published in Nature should be given at least *some* credibility (even if it goes against your current philosophy). I would not tend to give a random negative quote in a bulletin I've never heard of the same credibility.

And just for the record - I eat organic fruit kind of randomly - when it's not too much more expensive. I was also a vegetarian for 8 years, and quit when it became too stressful (physically - I was anemic while pregnant; and mentally - I decided there was only so much time and energy I could alot to saving the world). So there! ;)

Leightx

[lorilei]

Originally posted by leightx

I guess what I'm trying to say, is that an article published in Nature should be given at least *some* credibility (even if it goes against your current philosophy). I would not tend to give a random negative quote in a bulletin I've never heard of the same credibility.
Leightx

Point absolutely well-taken. I guess I wasn't trying to trash Trewavas as much as to point out the fact that he has a natural bias (which is something of which we should be aware). Bias always affects the types of information we choose to believe and/or write about.

For the record, NATURE has also published a great deal of articles in support of organic farming (written by others with the opposite BIAS). I think that's commendable. I always like to hear BOTH sides of the issue, and I appreciate it when a journal can exhibit a balance in their publication.

[ChristineLiu]

Originally posted by lorilei


Point absolutely well-taken. I guess I wasn't trying to trash Trewavas as much as to point out the fact that he has a natural bias (which is something of which we should be aware). Bias always affects the types of information we choose to believe and/or write about.

For the record, NATURE has also published a great deal of articles in support of organic farming (written by others with the opposite BIAS). I think that's commendable. I always like to hear BOTH sides of the issue, and I appreciate it when a journal can exhibit a balance in their publication.

Agreed. Everyone is entitled to his/her own opinions. In order for scientists to do research, you sort of have to be biased in order to carry out the experiments. It's more important to respect what the other side has to say and do so professionally. What happens many times is that we only see what agrees with our ideas and dismiss the other side of the story, which is wrong. my point is that make sure you hear ALL sides of the story and do not dismiss others when their opinions differ yours.

For leightx, I think NATURE sends papers to at least 2 reviewers after initial review by the editors. Depending on how things go, the article can be sent to more reviewers if necessary.

[leightx]

Originally posted by lorilei


For the record, NATURE has also published a great deal of articles in support of organic farming (written by others with the opposite BIAS). I think that's commendable. I always like to hear BOTH sides of the issue, and I appreciate it when a journal can exhibit a balance in their publication.

I'd be interested in reading a few of these articles online - Nature makes you subscribe (as in PAY) to read the one Christine linked above. Do either of you know of an online site that has at least summarized the articles, or posted the abstracts?

Sigh....sometimes I think it's better to remained uninformed - it's certainly easier in the short run :rolleyes: It just seems like the more I read, the more confused I get!

Leightx

[lorilei]

Originally posted by leightx

I'd be interested in reading a few of these articles online - Nature makes you subscribe (as in PAY) to read the one Christine linked above. Do either of you know of an online site that has at least summarized the articles, or posted the abstracts?


The link doesn't take you directly to the article? Hmph. For me it does. I'd hate to violate some sort of weird copyright, but I'd be happy to email the article to you if you'd like. I seem to have no trouble accessing it (and I'm no subscriber to NATURE)


ChristineLiu -
I just want to say that you and I agree about being informed on ALL sides of an issue. It's important to take in the information and think critically about it (in order to make up our OWN decision). I'd only add that being informed requires us to acknowledge the biases of our information sources... as well as our own tendencies.

Admittedly, I'm biased toward organic foods. But if someone really gave me solid proof that organic produce (including my own homegrown veggies) was worthless and bad for the environment, I would be inclined to readjust my opinion accordingly. I'm not beyond swallowing my pride and admitting I'm wrong. But since I've researched the topic fairly thoroughly, changing my mind would require a good, solid argument and some fairly irrefutable proof.

[Gail]

Originally posted by lorilei


The link doesn't take you directly to the article? Hmph. For me it does. I'd hate to violate some sort of weird copyright, but I'd be happy to email the article to you if you'd like. I seem to have no trouble accessing it (and I'm no subscriber to NATURE)



Lori,

Yesterday I'd tried to access the document and met with the same result as Leigh. When you get a sec, please e-mail it. I'd be interested in having a look.

[lorilei]

Good as done...

[dulcecoeur]

I had to think about this one a bit before I posted. While I will occasionally buy organic fruits or veg (I am vegetarian only so don't need to worry about meats) it's not something I have to do.

I am health concious, so I have done a lot of reading about GM foods, and organic foods and I must say I am not concrete either way.
I don't agree with people who outright oppose GM food for example without looking further into it. These practices can be very benefical in some instances...for example I think GM'ing varieties of rice for poorer countries in order to provide better nutrition is not a bad thing.

I do worry about pesticides, but have also seen many studies where washing fruit eliminates a lot of the residue, and that organic foods are not necessarily absent of these same chemicals as they may be contaminated from water run off, other crops in the area, during transport, etc.

I guess if I did eat meat, I would have more concerns in regards to
antibiotics etc, in that case perhaps I would purchase organic meats. But I myself don't need to think about that.
I guess my other worry might be with very very young children, since their tolerance levels are much lower...but I would need to hear more about that first.

As to taste testing; I have also seen taste tests run where people who regularly ate organic misidentified what was organic or non organic and mostly thought the non-organic stuff tasted better (and thought it was organic) I think therefore this is mostly a personal choice, and an argument can be made either way depending on the person.

I do see many of the advantages of organic farming, but I also see the advantages of using science in our food. If it were not for science, we would not be enjoying the varied diet we have today...we would not have canola for example.

I feel that at this point in time it is more important to eat as healthily as possible, not necessarily organic as well. There is a lot more research that needs to be done first. Until then, wash your fruits & veggies and just make choices that you are happy with.

[lorilei]

Originally posted by dulcecoeur
I do see many of the advantages of organic farming, but I also see the advantages of using science in our food. If it were not for science, we would not be enjoying the varied diet we have today...we would not have canola for example.


I do want to make a clarification -- at least for myself. I am absolutely NOT saying that I'm against science. I see plenty of benefits that come from science, and even some of the organic techniques used by environmentally friendly farmers come from science-based research.

The taste question -- I don't think many people buy organic for increased taste (at least I don't). I buy organic to support farmers who feel that keeping the farming process free of chemicals is safer.

I'll be the first to admit that I'm not completely positive that organic is the way to go. How can we EVER prove anything, after all, with all of the conflicting studies and skewed results? And how can we trust ANYONE, when even our own FDA uses selective data to support their own agenda?

I just err on the side which (for me) bears the least amount of risk.

[ChristineLiu]

Originally posted by lorilei


The link doesn't take you directly to the article? Hmph. For me it does. I'd hate to violate some sort of weird copyright, but I'd be happy to email the article to you if you'd like. I seem to have no trouble accessing it (and I'm no subscriber to NATURE)

NATURE is easier to access in the AM, evening, or late at night due to traffic. I think it is free. Try accessing www.nature.com and then search from there. As long as you're not making any money off of that article or plegerizing (sp?) it, I'm pretty sure you're not violating any copyright law.

Originally posted by lorilei

ChristineLiu -
I just want to say that you and I agree about being informed on ALL sides of an issue. It's important to take in the information and think critically about it (in order to make up our OWN decision). I'd only add that being informed requires us to acknowledge the biases of our information sources... as well as our own tendencies.

I know. I'm very stubborn when I set my mind to something. Someone will have to smack me in the head with concrete proof of something before I change my mind.
Originally posted by lorilei

Admittedly, I'm biased toward organic foods. But if someone really gave me solid proof that organic produce (including my own homegrown veggies) was worthless and bad for the environment, I would be inclined to readjust my opinion accordingly. I'm not beyond swallowing my pride and admitting I'm wrong. But since I've researched the topic fairly thoroughly, changing my mind would require a good, solid argument and some fairly irrefutable proof.

I don't have any problems with home grown organic food since it's in a small scale (and home grown foods are just soooooooo good), so it's neither good nor bad for the environment as a whole. I'm just still iffy about commercial organic farming, when more is at stake.

[sunberst]

wow. what a great topic.
my answer is every now & then.

and so many valid opinions on both ends.

i agree w/LGBurns.
i try not to avoid pesticides, preservatives and other things that are not meant to be consumed by the human body. i also like to support the farmers/producers of such foods. overall earth health is extremely important to me as well.

the downside:
organic food is expensive. i cannot always afford it. i go to whole foods once in awhile, but could never do my weekly grocery shopping there. i just pick up hard to find items. their meat is especially pricey. i think a few years ago i was looking to buy 4 normal-sized filet mignons from whole foods for a cookout, it was going to cost around $70 for just the steaks!

while the other grocery store chains are starting to devote special sections to organics/health foods, it is still expensive, mimited supply, and often the products on the shelves of these sections are past date because not enough people purchase these items in my neck of the woods, so they often go stale or bad.