Kids and Dining Out

[claire797]

Just got the February issue of Gourmet and the focus is on the family, eating with children and restaurants that are kid-friendly. There's an article called by a food critic named Jonathon Goldman called "Dining With Isabel" where he talks about taking his little girl to restaurants all over Manhattan and the world and how well-behaved she is and how she's taken an interest in many different kinds of food.

I really want Emma to be like this someday, but when I go to restaurants, all I see are kids climbing the walls and parents just letting it slide by. How do you teach children to appreciate dining out and at what age do you start. Obviously, it's a little early for Emma....she has no teeth....but I'd like to eventually teach her how to be one of those polite children who actually enjoys dining out at restaurants other than Chuckie Cheese's. Does anyone have any hints or advice?

[Robyncz]

It's NOT too early for Emma!!!!!!!!! My two-year old is (for the most part) excellent at restaurants. I often have other moms stop and tell me how good she is and ask things like "how do you get her to stay in the highchair?" Hello! She doesn't get a choice!!!

I don't know how much of this to attribute to her nature and how much to attribute to our great parenting ;) but here's what we've done.

1) We've taken her (and her sister who is now 8 months old) to restaurants pretty much since she was born.

2) We are always considerate of other diners. When she was a baby and we had no control over her (as if we have any *real* control now. . .), one of us took her out of the restaurant immediately if she started to cry or fuss. Now she doesn't really fuss in restaurants, but if we get stuck somewhere with very slow service and we're in the same place for more than an hour, she tends to get impatient. If we see the signs, one of us takes her out of the restaurant before it escalates to an issue.

3) We have *never* allowed her to play or walk around in a restaurant (or at home during mealtimes, for that matter). When we are at the table, she sits in a highchair or booster chair. Period. No discussion. When she was about 18 months old she balked at sitting in the highchair. We left the restaurant both times. Since then, it hasn't been a problem.

Reading this, I realize I may sound like Mussolini, but it's not like that at all. When she was younger we always took small (and quiet!) toys along to entertain her while we waited. Now, we usually just talk. And that brings us to a point that has been most important for us. When we are all at a table together, be it at home or at a restaurant, we see it as a time to interact TOGETHER!

My two kids-in-restaurants pet peeves are parents who let their kids run around the place (dangerous for kids and servers as well as annoying for other patrons!) and parents who take their children to a restaurant and then proceed to IGNORE them while engaging in adult conversation. This generally results in a child repeatedly yelling "mom, mom, mom, mom" or otherwise acting out for attention. Somehow in these instances it's only the parents who don't seem to see/hear the child.

As you can see, this is one of my hot topics, probably left over from many teenage and college years spent waiting tables. Also worked in retail, so tomorrows topic will be----Kids running loose in stores. Aggggh!

[MrsReber]

Bravo, Robyn! I see no reason why people have to give up dining out simply because they have children. We take DD to restaurants with us. I've done that since she was just a few weeks old. DH was scared to take her out so I'd go out with my mom. We'd have lunch and DD was a little angel. She's still very good when we go out and she's only 8 months old. We let her try foods if she seems interested, too.

Robyn, I completely agree- if you LET the child run around (even once!) they will think that's acceptable behavior. You have to be firm with them from the get go. My sister's 2 kids have always been well behaved in restaurants. They go out to eat frequently and have a great time!

[SusanT]

My parents took my brother and I to restaurants when we were small and I think that dining behavior begins at home. We always sat down as a family to dinner and were expected to eat in a civilized manner and talk to our parents. Eating out was no different.

Most likely the people who let their kids run around during meals also do so at home.

[GayeC]

My experience has been that some children are not ready to go to restaurants at a young age. Both of my boys were VERY active when they were young and they simply could not do the things that pleasant restaurant dining requires (sit still, be reasonably quiet, etc.) I don't think it was a lack of discipline or standards on our part, they just could not do it at age 2 or 3 or 4. So we really did not try to take them anywhere except occasionally to the most family-friendly restaurants. Now that they are older (13 and 8) we can go to nicer restaurants and their behavior is not a problem.

IMHO the problem is either a) parents who refuse to discipline their children or b) parents who refuse to acknowledge that their children are not capable of what they want them to do.

Gaye

[jphilg]

As half of a childless-for-now couple that eats out a lot, let me tell you that your efforts are appreciated! I frequently see well behaved children doing just fine at a restaurant.

That said, I think that it is important to distinguish between restaurants where you can take kids and those where no matter how well behaved they are, you really shouldn't. I think kids need to learn to behave well in restaurants, and thus should be exposed early on, but I would really appreciate it if the training takes place at your local Thai place, or at a family restaurant, bar food joint, or even some nicer places. But honestly, when I am paying for a premium meal at a place like Capitol Grille, or a romantic french restaurant, I don't want kids around. Those just aren't the kinds of places where you go with kids. I understand that it is hard to find a babysitter, and that you want time with your kid, but frequently parental evaluations of what is obnoxious and my evaluation of what is obnoxious is a little different. I am happy to deal with a little bit of squirming and yelling at most places, but part of the "price" of some restaurants is the atmosphere, and kids stand out a lot.

Living in DC, there are a lot of self-described Superparents who take their kids everywhere....and it really has ruined, or at least put a damper on, my enjoyment of what I had intended to be an adult evening.

So, in addition to following Robyn's suggestions, I would just add the follwoing:

If you have to ask whether they have highchairs and booster seats, chances are good that the restaurant is not a place for kids.

Happy dining!

Jen

[Jewel]

As one of those annoying 'childless-by-choice' women, I want to applaud every one of you mothers that is actually thinking and acting on this issue. DH and I are frequently 'out to dinner' and the behavior of some children and the utter oblivion that their parents are in is a constant source of aggravation. For DH's birthday dinner last February I took him to a nice Italian restaurant in Seattle. OK, so Italian places are known for their 'family style' dinners and such, but that doesn't mean that I want to experience everyone else's family! :rolleyes: Two kids about 2 and 3 years old were running around yelling, racing each other, running up to other diners, crawing under tables, and generally disturbing everyone in the place. When I finally had to physically remove the 2 year old from under my table, I finally said something to the server, who in turn said something to the parents of these children, who honestly didn't see much wrong with it! :eek: They promised to 'corral' them, but it didn't work, and the kids still ran rampant. At that point in time, if I had even been considering motherhood, I would have re-thought the entire deal!

We run into this more often than we should. I know that parents deserve the dinner out as much or more than I do! My only gripe is that they don't take the time or the effort to teach their children that when they are in a public place they are on their best behavior, and when that line has been crossed, the outing is over. Period. I've watched mothers or fathers pack up the entire brood during dinner and leave because the kids wouldn't settle down. Bravo! ;) I'm sorry they lost the meal they paid for, but hopefully their children learned a lesson.

There was an article in People magazine a year or so ago about a very childless woman who wanted to designate 'No Children' areas of restaurants the same way you designate 'No Smoking'. In her views, the wail of an unruly child was just as annoying as second hand cigarette smoke! When I read the article I had mixed feelings. Yes, I believe that the children can be aggravating, but I don't feel that parents with children who have been well-brought up should pay the penalty for the parents who's children need a time-out... just my opinion! ;)

[Nirak]

I could have written Robyncz's post. That was exactly our attitude from the very beginning. We were always prepared to leave, we always set expectations with the children, we never asked them to do more than they could (1 hr. wait for table ... no way). Our children have excellent manners (most days), they know how to order from a menu, speak directly & appropriately to a waitress, use utensils and napkins, etc. etc. This is because of the exposure we gave them and the expectations we have set. and the rules aren't much different at home. We use the dining room, set the table, etc. We have never taken them to fancy, fancy places because that is not aporpriate either. But I have never liked Applebees and I'm not about to start going now! Now that they are 9 & 6, we have needed to have them with us at fairly formal dining experiences such as my brother's rehersal dinner and wedding and a reception for my grandfather after his death. I am so happy that they already knew resteraunt ettiquette and we didn't have to start at the beginning.

Sorry for rambling and sounding preachy. It's just my way of saying it's never too early to start!

[lindrusso]

Originally posted by GayeC
My experience has been that some children are not ready to go to restaurants at a young age.

IMHO the problem is either a) parents who refuse to discipline their children or b) parents who refuse to acknowledge that their children are not capable of what they want them to do.

Gaye

Excellent points, Gaye! I have two boys. The oldest was/is always good in restaurants. He was so quiet you could almost forget he was there. My younger one, however, is a bit less mature (the older one has always been "going on 50" if you know what I mean) and much more active. He does not do as well in restaurants and it would be ridiculous to push the issue. We do not AVOID restaurants with him - he does have to learn sometime - but we do not go often and we make sure it's an appropriate place for him.

I agree with Jen's remarks. If I'm taking both kids out to eat, we will NOT choose a really nice restaurant. Not only is the food almost entirely lost on the boys - they'd be just as happy at Applebee's - but when I go to a romantic or fancy restaurant, I quite franky don't want my kids there, at least not until they are much older! ;)

As for folks who dine out when their children behave as Jewel describes - that's completely out of hand! Do the parents really get anything out of going out???? I'd be so stressed out if my kids behaved like that! But I guess that's the difference between those parents and me - they didn't see anything wrong with it and were therefore free of stress!

Hmmm...I see an idea for another thread - ideas for restaurants that satisfy adult tastes, but cater to kids as well! :)

[Robyncz]

Originally posted by jphilg
If you have to ask whether they have highchairs and booster seats, chances are good that the restaurant is not a place for kids.

I agree completely! We happen to live in a town with a lot of great "family friendly" restaurants, but there are definitely places we wouldn't consider taking the kids. These are the places we reserve for those rare nights when we have a babysitter.

I also agree with Gaye that it is important to be realistic about what your child is able to do. Even with our low-maintenance daughter, there are days when she is particularly, um, high spirited, shall we say, and we would never take her out in one of those moods.

For the record, we consciously avoid those "family restaurants" (i.e, Chuckie Cheeses or Peter Piper Pizza) where we are apt to see a bunch of kids running around and behaving like hooligans because I'm afraid that my girls will get "ideas"! Besides that, I don't see any reason to pay for the crappy food. . .

[SusanD]

Simply as part of the growing-up process, children need to learn how to behave appropriately in public places. We've been taking DD out a lot - not only to restaurants but to sporting events, musems, etc. At this point she's still too young to misbehave, but my hope is that by exposing her to different environments at an early age she'll be used to it and not get out of control just because we're away from home. Unfortunately there are too many parents out there who either just don't care or were never taught themselves what is appropriate behavior in public. We were out to dinner recently with some friends who have 3 kids, and their two boys were running around all over the place, tackling each other, yelling, etc. I just wanted to crawl under the table & die!

[Jewel]

Originally posted by lindrusso
As for folks who dine out when their children behave as Jewel describes - that's completely out of hand! Do the parents really get anything out of going out???? I'd be so stressed out if my kids behaved like that!

That's the whole point! YOU would be stressed because you're the type of mother that would make sure her kids never did these things. The parents of these children that I've encountered very MUCH enjoy their dining experience! Mainly, because someone else is dealing with their children, not them... :mad:

[JanetB]

As a person who doesn't have children yet - but who has many many friends who do - I feel that parents need to put the needs of their children before their own dining choices.

I think most folks can gauge their children well. I have a friend who has accepted the fact that her child is not able to handle a "nice" resturant. He is about 2 years old - and generally has no patience for nice resturants. She always gets a baby sitter if we aren't dining at a family type of place. Yet - this makes her cranky when other parents bring a child who cannot behave.

She is known for her directness. One evening much to the absolute horror of her husband, me and my df - she got up from the table and walked over to the couple who were trying to wait out the SCREAMING baby. The child was about 10 months old - and had been screaming for at least 25 minutes. They were ignoring the child and making toasts!

My friend informed them in a loud voice - that she was sorry their child was misbehaving during their romantic meal - but she was paying someone to watch her child so that she could have an adult meal with her husband and friends - could they be so kind to either quiet their child as she did not care to listen to it - or leave!!! The other diners applauded! These folks were humiliated - they sulked out of the resturant after settling their bill. The manager gave us a bottle of wine on the house!!

[Gail]

What a pleasure to hear from so many level-headed mothers. There's a lot of good advice above with which I agree wholeheartedly. Before I had a child, I used to marvel at people who'd plop their child in a highchair and immediately hand him/her a spoon or a set of keys. Naturally, the child would spend the entire meal banging and clanging and driving the other diners mad!

Since my son was a premie (and they are notorious for having extremely low tolerance levels) I was extremely worried about how he'd react in restaurants in the beginning. We started him out in his infant carrier, in a small, casual hamburger joint, just to see how he'd handle things. We were encouraged when he slept through the entire meal. As he got older, I'd make a point of never taking him out to eat when he was sleepy (ergo cranky) and would always come equipped with little jars or a plastic bowl with his food and his favorite plastic spoons, his bib, juice and anything else he was used to having at home. Rather than relying upon the restaurant, we'd travel with our own little seat (one of those things which hooks on the side of the table-- which you can't use on pedestal tables, obviously.) That way, he was right up there with us at the table, instead of in his own little environment. And we interacted, so he didn't resort to all those little-kid tricks to garner our attention.

Can't say we went to a lot of "family style" restaurants. Nor did we go to terribly ritzy ones either. Our goal was simply to get him acquainted and comfortable with the places we liked, and this he did. I was--and still am-- constantly offering him things to try, and at just a bit shy of 12 now, he eats better than most adults. (he's looking forward to going to dinner this weekend to celebrate his dad's birthday and is all set on snails, duck with orange sauce and a chocolate bombe filled with creme brulee.) Kids like the security of routine-- and for us, going out to eat is part of our routine, now part of my son's routine.

One other thought-- I do allow quiet play at the table-- I always have a small spiral notebook and a tri-colored pen in my purse so my son can draw, play hangman or squiggles if he gets antsy. When he was smaller, I used to have a four-pack of crayons as well. And a small toy-- like an action figure or similar-- was allowable at coffee shops and such.

[MrsReber]

Jewel, I would be horribly embarrassed if my children ever acted like that!! I'd have to slither out of the restaurant in shame.

Whenever we go out, we stay pretty close to home and I tell DH that if DD gets too fussy and cries, we have our dinners wrapped up and we go home. No big deal. We went out for mexican food last week and DD was great through the whole meal. It was about 8:30 and we were debating ordering dessert when she got fussy and started to cry. We just packed up and skipped the dessert (of course, DH had to stop for ice cream on the way home!).

My dad and step mother took my little sister (who was 5 at the time) to see the Boston Pops. My friend and I were there, too. Well,my stepmother talked to my little sister, explained things to her and made the whole event interesting. She was the most well behaved child there. I do agree that some kids can't sit still for anything and I applaud the parents that recognize this. But really, who would want to deal with that behavior at dinner?

[ewatkins]

One thing to keep in mind is that when adults go out, the food is an important part of why we are going. My kids want simple plain food, and don't really like restaurant food. So -- from their point of view, it's hard to wait for something you don't really want to eat. We tend to go out with relatives, and all the adults want to talk and the kids are left out --another temptation to misbehave. S0 --just be sure you look at it from their perspective.

[Beth Y]

Claire, you have gotten some good responses, but not much particular advice, so I will try to do that. Our 3 year old is a veteran of restaurants, particularly as we travel alot. She has been to France, Spain, England, Hawaii, and in nice restaurants throughout. Luckily for us, we are in the same boat as above posters in that we are contstantly having people come up to our table and tell us how well behaved our child is. I can remember one particular time when I asked the waiter if they had high chairs and was told, with quite a look I may add, NO! The same waiter, as well as the owner, came up at the end of dinner and noted their amazement at our kids behavoir and ability to eat all types of foods.

Here are my thoughts.

1. Discipline is the key. - If one of the above posters is Mussolini, then so am I. In our house, no means no and there are immediate consequences to actions. Never bend, even for your convenience. If you say, "you do that one more time, you are going out of this restarant for time out" it has to happen, even if they are just bringing out your appetizers or whatever. If strict discipline is used from the beginning, the kid gets used to it and stops misbehaving (well, no ones perfect, but lets say it gets easier). Now, we have rare problems.

2. As they get older, make sure they understand that different behavoirs are required for different situations. If they are in a nice adult restaurant, it requires big kid manners. THis should be discussed often and not just in the restaurant. Also important in insuring that there is a reward for this...that is, going to nice restaurants should be something that they want to do, and therefore something they want to be allowed to do. For our daughter, it is a time she gets lots of attention from us, lots of family conversation, gets to try great new food, attention from wait staff and usually, a very fancy dessert. If you are just going to have adult talk and ignore the kids, then I could see why the kids get restless.

3. Enforce a zero tolerance policy. Particularly when they are really young, to be fair to other diners, you need to take them out at the first peep. I can't believe the above story about parents in a restaurant letting their kid just cry. Ours would have been out in a second and only brought back when they stopped. If they didn't, the other parent would have gotten the check and the stuff to go and we would have been out of there. As people say above, it is not fair to other diners. So, be prepared to have some nights that just don't work, hopefully, over time, they will be few.

4. Be prepared - Particularly when they are very young, make sure you have everything to make the evening go well. Whatever that may be..bottles, pacifiers, quiet toys/books, blankets, little snacks to tide them over if the food is slow.

5.. Start early- THe kid has to get used to it. When they are very young, the dynamics are different. Preparedness and zero tolerance are more important. Also, when they are young, timing is important. When DD was a baby, we would be careful to time outings for when she was likely to be sleeping or in a good mood,and then, if she woke up, be ready with a pacifier, toy, or to leave.

6. Choose your food wisely - If they are eating off plates, be sure that one of you orders something that they can eat, i.e. something with chicken, fish that can be cut in small pieces, or rice or potatoes,etc. Early on, we brought food for DD, but gradually, she would eat more off our plates than what we brought. Remember, alot is in the presentation. They are more likely to eat the food if they are having a good time and see you enjoying it, than if you give it to them and say "you may not like this" Most good restaurants will NOT have a kids menu, but you can still find something that they will eat. If your kid is being good, staff is more likely to accomadate. "Can we have the duck quesadilla's without the chilis?" "Can we have a side order of the mash potatoes?" We have found that, if your kid is behaving, staff will often go out of their way to serve the kid. You should see some of the elaborate dishes of vanilla ice cream our kid has gotten! Of course, the other side is that, our kid is turning into a food snob. Mommy, I don't like your spinach, I like the spinach at the restaurant at the beach. (where it is fresh and lightly sauteed with olive oil and garlic).

7. Choose your restaurants wisely - As an above poster noted, there are some restaurants that a kid just shouldn't go to and I agree. If the place if quiet, romantic, etc. don't even try, I don't care how well behaved your kid is. Kids just make noise every once in a while and in such a restaurant, it is unacceptable. (So is loud drunk talking by adults, but don't get me started) That said, there are many great restaurants that well behaved kids should be fine. Many of the great new restaurants are bistro type places, which are comfy and noisy...they are great choices. So, if there is a breakdown of some sort, the noise (before you whisk them away) will not likely be noticed. Also, look for places that are open air, or have something to interest the kids...like a waterfront place, or a garden, or great pictures on the walls which you can discuss, or an open kitchen, etc. My kid, for instance, loves sushi bars as she gets to watch the food being prepared. Plus, now she gets lots of attention while she eats her sushi. Just stack two high chairs on top of each other, so she can reach.

8. Eat out early - Particularly when dining out in our town, we will be there early. We all know that real fine diners don't go out that early, but the restaurants are open and fairly empty. You get the same great food, you get better service, and you get out before most people get there. You also aren't pushing your kids bedtime at the end of the meal.

9. Just use common sense - A lot of what I am saying is common sense. Don't expect to much of your kid. If they are cranky, if they are tired, get take out or eat at home. If your kid has colic, don't even try this. Don't choose a restaurant that you know, ahead of time, will be too much of a challenge. Don't take your kid to a restaurant where you know they won't be able to eat anything (mexican is tough for us, unless they have quesadillas. At indian restaurants, we can order a biryani or what my kid calls, "red chicken", but you have to be sure the restaurant can make it not spicy) In France, with all the rich sauces, food was a problem sometimes. Luckily, there is all that great bread and cheese, which can keep a 1 year old happy anytime!


That is all I can think of, others may have more tips. I still say, discipline is the most important. We have a saying in our house "good things happen to good girls". My DD has lived a pretty charmed, well traveled, life, but she knows the fun stops when she misbehaves (and so do we). Are there kids that this just won't work for? I guess. I would like think that our success is due to good parenting and not just a quiet kid, but who knows. We have just never expected less from her. As I said, have common sense and know your kid. If they can't do it, don't try it. I am expecting two more kids any day now, so we will see how my theories play out!

Good luck!

[claire797]

Thanks for laying out the ground rules, Beth. What a helpful post. I am glad to know that at age 3, your daughter is a restaurant/travel veteran. I think a 3 year old is old enough to understand that dining out is something special and that being on her best behavior is 1) kind to Mom and Dad and 2) brings tangible rewards e.g. desserts and attention.

I don't think discipline will be a problem since both DH and I are hypersensitive to other diners. Not too long ago, we were that single couple sitting next to the family with the toddler standing on the table and the 2 year old throwing a tantrum while the adults just went on enjoying their meal. If Emma decided she was going to be a monster, we'd just never go out....and then we'd have to work on the behavior problems at home.

Things are progressing. Yesterday I took her to a barbecue joint with my dad. She sat in my lap, took in the surroundings and had a few swigs from her bottle. I was impressed because it was right before her naptime when she usually gets cranky.

I hope taking her out to eat at 5 months makes some sort of imprint for future restaurant visits -- because one thing I really miss is dining out.

[LynnSC]

I couldn't help but respond to this post when I read it. I am the mother of two very active boys ages 7 years and 10 years. They were very difficult to deal with in resturants at younger ages, especially when they were together. I do not look on this as failure as parents. Of course, we did not take them to nice resturants since we didn't want to pay for good food and suffer! WE always got a babysitter if we were going anywhere above Applebees or Chilis :). There is a huge difference in boys and girls, I don't care what anyone says. I was raised in a family of five girls and had all nieces, then I had boys! What a shock. I am happy to say that they are very well behaved when we eat out now and to my knowledge we have never offended others as we did remove them if they became problems. I think it is unfair to try to force a child to sit in a fancy resturant and behave if they aren't ready for it. We aren't world travelers, of course, so my idea of a nice resturant may be much less than some.I agree with what many others have said . Timing is crucial with children. It is not fair to them to take them out to eat and make them be "happy" when it is their bedtime or naptime etc...

Just my two cents worth!

[claire797]

Originally posted by LynnSC
There is a huge difference in boys and girls, I don't care what anyone says. I was raised in a family of five girls and had all nieces, then I had boys! What a shock.

Hee hee. I'm glad I have a girl :)

[Beth Y]

Lynne, I largely agree with you about boys. Having a 3 year old and being a stay at home Mom, I am in lots of playgroups, etc. and, based on this very non-scientific totally anecdotal study, boys are clearly USUALLY boys. They just are more resistant to staying still and more prone to rough play than girls. However, as with every overgeneralization, there are always the exceptions. One of my girlfriend, who has a very sweet quiet natured 11 year old boy, had a totally wild, discipline resistant, trying 2 year old. Funny, she how has another boy (4 months) who it appears is going to be just like his big brother...very easy and quiet.

I am currently carrying twins, a boy and girl. So far, the boy seems happy to stay in the same place, while the girl has been constantly jumping around...breach, head down, transverse...she just never stays still. It will be interesting to see if they continue these personalities when they get out!! My husband has always been a quiet natured guy, while my Mom regularly called me a "worm in hot ashes" when I was little. Yes, we are southern!

[jpap]

Beth, How wonderful, TWINS! When I was a little girl all I wanted was to grow up and have twins, my girlfriends thought I was nuts. Have you picked out names, would you like to share?You know how we like to opine, especially when it comes to naming babies. Janet

[BlueMoose]

The boy/girl thing is certainly coming true in our family. My daughter was always wonderful in restaurants (and still is at age 4). My son, on the other hand, is more difficult. He's fine if we're out for lunch, but we try to avoid taking him out at dinner time. He's just too fussy and squirmy at that time, and DH usually ends up walking him around the restaurant. He is just so much more active and physical than our daughter, and far less verbal. I can't say we have ever had discipline problems in restaurants, but sometimes it can be really hard for kids to sit still. (Especially when they are still in the EATING rather than COLORING with crayons stage:rolleyes: )

[LynnSC]

Originally posted by Beth Y

while my Mom regularly called me a "worm in hot ashes" when I was little. Yes, we are southern! [/B]

And I thought I was the only one who said that! :) I am also southern, born and raised in Georgia, transplanted north to South Carolina. :)
Lynn
P.S. I do know a few girls that would give my boys a run for their money in the activity department. ;) Best wishes with your twins.