Speaking of controversial books...

[ellamay]

This came up when a friend and I were talking the other day.

She has a daughter, age 7. That is about the age I was when I started reading Laura Ingalls Wilder books, and I loved them. I offered to buy a set of the books for her little girl and she said:

"I don't want her reading those books. They're horribly racist."

I had to think and think about what she could be talking about. Finally I dug out my old copies of the Little House books and started paging through them. I don't know if "horribly racist" is a fair description, but there's a fair amount of discussion about "Indians" that is not exactly positive, and also an incident where Pa and other people in the town dress up as "Darkies" and put on a minstrel show.

I don't ever remember the racial issues coming up when I read the books. I don't think it even fazed me, or occurred to me to ask about it. It was certainly never mentioned when I read the books for school and did reports on them.

To me it brought up an interesting point. If the racism in the books is keeping people from giving them to their children to read, should the publishers go back and edit the racism out of the books? Or should they leave it in, and rely on parents to explain to their kids that the racism in the books is a product of the era the stories took place in, and those beliefs are wrong, but they're still important to know about in a historical context?

I'll post my own opinion after others post theirs.

[Jessica]

I should preface this by saying that I do not have children.

I do not think books should be edited to remove racist references. Are we going to edit Huckleberry Finn, one of the best American novels, because it uses the N word? I think these books are an opportunity to teach children about the past and discuss why we no longer use certain words or act in a certain way.

I also think we give children too little credit for being able to place stories in context. I remember reading the Little House books at age 7 or so and realizing that what Ma said about Indians wasn't right, and I knew almost nothing about Native American culture.

That being said, I am certain there are some books in which the racist content far exceeds any benefit the book might have to a reader. I am not sure how we decide which books are OK, but I think for me, the Little House books have much to redeem them and the point of the books is not to tell a racist story.

If there is a person on this thread who is African-American or Native American, I very much would like to read your perspective on such books.

Good topic, ellamay.

[MrsReber]

My sister recently told my mother to not ever buy the Harry Potter books for her daughter because they deal with "witchcraft". My mom was very disappointed as my other neice loves these books and it's something they share together. My mom read them all along with my neice (she's 12, but started reading them when they first came out).

I have to say it's wrong to ask publishers to edit out anything that is found to be offensive. Each person's perception of what is offensive may be different and you'll never please everyone. I imagine then we'd get into another debate about publihers catering to one group of people and not another. It'll never end. I have read many of those books on the "banned" list. I would have missed out on so many examples of great literature if I had not been allowed to read them.

I say leave the books as they are. I feel bad for parents who are relying on our government and the schools to raise and protect their children. That's my job as a mom. It's up to me to decide what they should and should not be exposed to. Just because a book is in the library or book store doesn't mean I want them to read it. Parents need to be involved and to guide their children, explain things that they don't understand. At least, I think that's MY job as a parent. And yes, I know I can't filter anything.

By the way, I liked the Little House books, too, and I don't think they caused me to be racist at all.

[Peggy]

Don't get me started!! I am so sick of excellent literature being criticized as racist because it does not meet the current standards for what is politically correct. Do people really want to alter historical accuracy ? For what purpose?? So no one will feel uncomfortable by a comment taken out of context that was acceptable at the time? History may not be perfect but that is how things were and if we erase it what will our reference point for change and improvement be?? Give me a break!!

I find it incredibly sad that your friend is so short-sighted and narrow minded that she cannot see the benefits of her daughter reading the Laura Ingalls Wilder series. I loved those books as a child and reread them with my daughter when she came to that age.

No offense to anyone or to your friend. I'm sure she is a lovely person. I just think people go to far in there attempts to be politically correct. Just my humble opinion and one of my hot buttons.

Respectfully Yours,

Peggy

[Kayaksoup]

Originally posted by Jessica

I also think we give children too little credit for being able to place stories in context. I remember reading the Little House books at age 7 or so and realizing that what Ma said about Indians wasn't right, and I knew almost nothing about Native American culture.


These were my favorite books as a kid, and I knew that the "racist" views in them were old-fashioned and not right at all. Kids are smart enough to understand that. I think. I don't have any children of my own, but if I did, I would not hesitate to share the old set, that MY mother gave me, with them.

[CompassRose]

Ah! the shade of Dr. Bowdler walks again. Looks just as silly, too.

I recently re-read Heidi, when I came across a dusty copy in my basement, and was rather stunned by the arrogant class-assumptions it made. That doesn't change the fact that I loved it as a child.

I think it is important to read books -- all books -- unexpurgated. Even unconsciously, children will begin to understand that culture shapes the author (and sometimes the author, the culture), and get a sense of the ebb and flow of history. You need that sense of perspective. Too many people seem ignorant of history -- and those who are ignorant of past mistakes are doomed to repeat them, aren't they?

[Jessica]

Originally posted by CompassRose
You need that sense of perspective. Too many people seem ignorant of history -- and those who are ignorant of past mistakes are doomed to repeat them, aren't they?

Well said.

[engineer]

Sorry no kids here either but in 6th grade (so 11 or 12 years old) I read 'Gone with the Wind'. A wonderful book but full or racism,sex, and other bad things. George Santayana said, 'Those who do not remember the past are doomed to repeat it'. If children don't know what bad is, how will they know what good is? Editing books to make people comfortable is wrong, some things should make people uncomfortable. Sometimes the mirror needs to be held up so we can examine the ugly things about us...so we can fix them. The generation that's so distructive (Columbine et al.) is the one that was raised in a sheltering environment. I remember watching the Vietnam war on the news over breakfast while Mom made my bed and laid out my clothes. I remember thinking these people were really in pain or even worse dead. It didn't make me want to kill people. Quite the opposite - I want to understand other human experiences.

Just my 2 cents worth - sorry for butting in.

[ktg0930]

This is a very interesting topic and I agree with the points so far. You all are very articulate in stating your points.

I also enjoyed the Little House books growing up and I think they give a good picture of pioneer life in the times. Indian interactions and attacks were a real part of life in those times and helps people understand the history of our country in a story that they can relate to. I also am not a parent, but I would expect that it's an opportunity for parents to be involved in what their kids are reading.

Gone with the Wind is one of my favorite books and about 5 years ago the movie was shown in a local theatre for the 50th anniversary. While watching the movie, I realized how un-PC it is, but it's also reflective of some parts of southern life at the time.

There are some horrible events in US history, but they happened and it's important to understand the reasons so that similar things can be prevented in the future. We shouldn't pretend they didn't happen.

Thanks for this thread...it's something I never would have thought about in relation to the Little House books.

[tamawrite]

Agreed. I read all those books in my youth, and they didn't make me racist. Instead, they broadened my view of history and other perspectives. Kids aren't as stupid as many people like to pretend.

[colleency]

It's sad that your friend doesn't think enough of herself and her daughter that they would be able to talk about the racism and grow from it.

My grandmother, in my opinion, is racist in words but not in deeds. She says things that are patently ridiculous to one who grew up after the mid '60's. And yet she is the most generous person I know, regardless of the color of skin of the people she helps. I am childless, but if I had children, I would be proud to have her as a role model for them.

There are many books that have that same feeling for me. They are a product of their time, but they're not evil. I read a lot of books as a child that, upon rereading as an adult, turned out to have a lot of racism in them. I don't think I turned out racist.

Although it would be interesting to see what our grandchildren think of things that we "know" to be true.

[colleency]

Originally posted by engineer
Just my 2 cents worth - sorry for butting in.

I hope you don't feel that you're butting in. I feel that the conversation was open to all of us, and the more opinions on the subject, the better.

[Chefzhat]

Originally posted by ellamay
To me it brought up an interesting point. If the racism in the books is keeping people from giving them to their children to read, should the publishers go back and edit the racism out of the books?

No.

Political correctness is a constantly moving target. Books should be read in the context of the period they were written. If we can't expect our kids to be able to grasp a certain concept in various types of literature, then how are we ever going to raise well-educated students?

I think editing school history books is wrong as well, but it occurs all the same.

[ellamay]

Well, I agree with all of you. I don't think editing the books to conform to today's standards is going to help anything, and I would view it as tragic. I got upset when the publishers of the Narnia series put out a set of the books that were not in the order that C.S. Lewis wanted them to be read, so the idea of editing uncomfortable bits out of Laura Ingalls Wilder's books is just horrible to me.

Other people have said how I feel very eloquently, but basically I think it's better to acknowledge that racist attitudes existed and put them in the context of the time than it is to excise those passages. I actually think reading about those attitudes in the context of the books will help people understand racism better, and see why it's wrong.

I also read "Gone With the Wind" as a younger teen and thought it was a great book (and still do), and I definitely think that book is helpful in understanding a lot of what was going on during the Civil War, even if the book is far less than factually accurate in places.

I am going to keep working on my friend to get her to "see the light" so to speak, but I have a feeling it will be tough going. She is a nice person but very PC and extremely sensitive about cultural issues.

[Jessica]

Originally posted by Chefzhat


I think editing school history books is wrong as well, but it occurs all the same.

I am not sure how they are editing history books, but a while back I read an article in the Wall Street Journal about political correctness in grade-school texts. I think this is PC run amok and I consider myself a liberal.

http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110003695

Jumping back to the Little House books, chances are your friend's daughter will run across these and similarly "racist" books in school or with her friends. It's like sex; do you want your kids to learn about sensitive topics from you or from someone else?

Then again, I am not opposed to updated history books. I went to junior high in the early 1980s and our history books referred to the current President Johnson and the ongoing Vietnam conflict. :rolleyes:

[sneezles]

Originally posted by Jessica


I am not sure how they are editing history books, but a while back I read an article in the Wall Street Journal about political correctness in grade-school texts. I think this is PC run amok and I consider myself a liberal.

http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110003695

Thank you for the link...very interesting and rather sad article.

[Escher]

Originally posted by MrsReber
My sister recently told my mother to not ever buy the Harry Potter books for her daughter because they deal with "witchcraft". My mom was very disappointed as my other neice loves these books and it's something they share together....

I hope you told your sister to take a long walk off a short pier.

A)Ummm, the potter books deal with witcraft on roughly the same level as most people celebrate Halloween. And certainly, the religious aspects have been stripped, leaving only the common stereotypical (and fun!) elements.
B) so what? even if they did deal with witchraft in a religious sense, would your sister advise the same if they dealt w/ Judaism? Islam? Buddhism?

Your sister acting like a small minded bigot capitalizing on the success of the Potter series to be stick in the mud. It's crap like this that turns people off to organized religion. Don't let her get away with such crap.

[Escher]

el-bumpo extraordinaire.

[Chefzhat]

Originally posted by Escher


I hope you told your sister to take a long walk off a short pier.

A)Ummm, the potter books deal with witcraft on roughly the same level as most people celebrate Halloween. And certainly, the religious aspects have been stripped, leaving only the common stereotypical (and fun!) elements.
B) so what? even if they did deal with witchraft in a religious sense, would your sister advise the same if they dealt w/ Judaism? Islam? Buddhism?

Your sister acting like a small minded bigot capitalizing on the success of the Potter series to be stick in the mud. It's crap like this that turns people off to organized religion. Don't let her get away with such crap.

Wow! Tell us what you REALLY think, E!!!

I don't know if this type of thing turns people off from organized religion, but it certainly gives one pause. Our neighbors, noveau-religious if there ever was - refuse to allow the books in their house either. It is my opinion that they think they really are "walking the talk" when they tell people that Harry isn't allowed. I also note the sanctimonious looks on their faces while stating their teeny tiny views.

However, they purchase for their kids Harry Potter playing cards, buy HP birthday cards, let the kids dress up as HP for Halloween . . . :confused:

Can we all say HYPOCRITE?

Okay, back to the regularly scheduled thread:)

[Jessica]

Originally posted by Chefzhat


However, they purchase for their kids Harry Potter playing cards, buy HP birthday cards, let the kids dress up as HP for Halloween . . . :confused:


This makes no sense to me.

[Clover]

There's a long thread (www.chicklit.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=000604) called "Should we burn Babar? Childhood faves we're disillusioned by" over on the Chicklit forums that you might be interested in.

[JenZen]

I agree with the general feeling of this thread. There's no reason to edit reality. We can't camouflage a past to make it rosier than it was.

Plus, I struggle with the idea that these concepts are "racist" to begin with. Certainly, in our modern thinking they are, but at the time when they were written, harm wasn't meant, for the most part. There isn't hatred in the Larua Ingalls Wilder books. I guess it was more of a misunderstanding of other cultures.

The very idea of editing literature from what it was scares me. And in some way, it seems against our freedom of speech, as well.

[Kerri]

It seems like a lot of these books with "old fashioned" views also portray women as submissive. I hope they take that out, also.

Just kiding! I think that just illistrates the point that these books are about the PAST and not about how things are today!!

I would also like to point out that Harry Potter and his school celebrates both Christmas and Easter.

[Escher]

Originally posted by Chefzhat
Wow! Tell us what you REALLY think, E!!!


And someone once accused me of "running" when challenged....:rolleyes:

Actually, I'm kinda ticked off at my mom. You see, my SO follows pagan religions, and performs most of the major ceremonies, and being the loving, doting spouse I am, I usually will respectfully participate (though I don't embrace the religion myself). Anyhow, my mom visited our house and got ger panties all in a bunch because there were "witchcraft books around the babies"... :rolleyes: :mad: Like they can even read! I explained to her, that if I had married someone that was jewish, or catholic, or <gasp> muslim, they too would likely have books pertinent to their religion about. She didn't like it, but she will have to deal.

[aggie94]

Originally posted by JenZen
Plus, I struggle with the idea that these concepts are "racist" to begin with. Certainly, in our modern thinking they are, but at the time when they were written, harm wasn't meant, for the most part. There isn't hatred in the Larua Ingalls Wilder books. I guess it was more of a misunderstanding of other cultures.

I don't disagree with the general sentiment of this thread. But I just wanted to comment that ideas and beliefs do not need to be hateful or made with the intent to harm in order to be racist. Treating people differently because of the color of their skin is racism, period. Whether you do it a joking, innocuous, or malicious manner is irrelevant. To call it a "misunderstanding of other cultures" is a tremendous trivialization, IMO.

[stefania4]

Clover, I thought of that same thread on Chicklit!

Until college I went to public schools. When I got to college (a church-affiliated one), I was astounded to discover how little of the complete picture I had; since we couldn't discuss religion in public schools, I was missing huge chunks of context for history, literature, art, and music.

I would hate to see the same thing happen in this situation. Books are a product of their time and even the ugly parts have a lot to tell us. My husband had a greater appreciation of his Japanese grandfather's experience in a 1940s internment camp after reading "Snow Falling On Cedars."

[Kathy B]

Originally posted by Escher

Your sister acting like a small minded bigot capitalizing on the success of the Potter series to be stick in the mud. It's crap like this that turns people off to organized religion. Don't let her get away with such crap.

Well, really, why should it bother anyone if she doesn't want her daughter to read a certain set of books? Is it any different from someone else choosing not to let their child read something because it is "too violent" or "too explicit" or too anything esle? If she chooses that perspective, how does it hurt anyone as long as she is not asking the school library to ban it? (see other thread :) ). It is just how they have chosen to raise their family, and if we don't agree, I guess we "will have to deal!"

[Escher]

EDIT: I misunderstood the relationship, so your point has more substance....

but I still stand on my original thought:

Challenge her position, and explain why it is repugnant....

[tbb113]

Originally posted by Escher

KathyB re-read the post...it is not the mother who is setting limits (not that it would change the issue at all) it is the sister who is the instigator, here..... "My sister recently told my mother to not ever buy the Harry Potter books for her daughter..."

Ummm....that is the mother of the child speaking to the grandmother of the child unless I'm reading this wrong And as a parent, she should be able to restrict what her child is reading. I asked people not to give my boys realistic looking guns as toys (squirt guns were fine) since I don't believe guns are toys. Same idea isn't it

[colleency]

I believe that the sister asked their mother not to buy HP for the sister's children, which would be a parent setting limits for her own children.

When HP came out, I wanted to buy them for my nephews. SIL asked me not to, as they don't want their kids to read books containing magic or witchcraft. While I don't agree with this, I'm not going to tell her that she's wrong. She's not abusing her children. They aren't hypocritical about it as far as I know; their children aren't allowed to trick or treat either.

And I see this as an issue of respecting their religious rights. I don't bring pork to a potluck at my Jewish friends' homes either.

[ErinM]

I, too, agree with what most everyone has said. It is WRONG to edit a book to remove passages or phrases that could be seen as "offensive". If we allow that kind of thing to start, it will never end. It reminds me of this video service I once read about that would take movies and edit all of the sex, violence, and un-PC scenes and dialog so that they would be more "family friendly" Unfortunately, I can't remember WHERE I read about this...it might have even been on this board. I disagree with that act as well.

I am another individual who grew up reading the Little House series. I never ONCE in my life ever thought they were racist. In fact, it wasn't until the explanation above was give that I though "Well, Ok, I guess..." I've been a voracious reader all my life and my mom never once censored anything I read. And trust me, I read a lot of things that were way beyond my age level, which have had no ill effects on me.

History has a place in our lives. How else can we learn about the fascinating place our country is/was if we don't understand who we are, where we came from, and how we've changed? Taking away the "unsavory" aspects of our history will only cheapen everything our ancestors went through to make us who we are today.

[Escher]

Originally posted by tbb113
Ummm....that is the mother of the child speaking to the grandmother of the child unless I'm reading this wrong

Nope, you are not wrong. I made the error.

That does rather change things. :o http://bitterrivals.com/forum/images/smiles/icon_redface.gif

Oh well, it won't be the last time I'm wrong.

Still, even if I had the relationship wrong, challenge her uninformed stance. The books are not about "withcraft", and even if they were, that's not necessarily a bad thing.... noone would stop a child from reading a book whose main character is buddhist....

[Kay Henderson]

I think the concern depends upon the book.

The last few years I taught, I did not read the Little House series aloud, but had a set available for students to read.

On the other hand, when as a young teacher (30 years ago), I previewed one of the Dr. Doolittle books, I not only chose not to read it aloud but not to have it available in my classroom.

Kay

[ErinM]

Originally posted by ellamay
I got upset when the publishers of the Narnia series put out a set of the books that were not in the order that C.S. Lewis wanted them to be read, so the idea of editing uncomfortable bits out of Laura Ingalls Wilder's books is just horrible to me.



I've never read this series, but would like to someday. Of course, I'll want to read the "unedited" version...what order SHOULD they be read in?

[stefania4]

Originally posted by ErinM
I am another individual who grew up reading the Little House series. I never ONCE in my life ever thought they were racist. In fact, it wasn't until the explanation above was give that I though "Well, Ok, I guess..." I, too, read the whole series and just loved those books. And I think it proves a point that so many of us don't remember them as racist, because it just wasn't a big takeaway from the book. If anyone had asked me to describe the Little House books before I read the thread on Chicklit, I would've said they're the ongoing story of a little girl and her family moving through the midwest in the 1800s - there is a lot about the importance of family, hard work, and a place to call home.

[Jessica]

The Book-A-Minute site offers a solution to the Harry Potter conundrum.

http://rinkworks.com/bookaminute/b/rowling.stone.shtml

[Jessica]

Bump. Because my link is funny. Really. It is.

[tbb113]

Originally posted by Jessica
Bump. Because my link is funny. Really. It is.
Okay..you win, I checked out your link...It IS funny :D

[stefania4]

Originally posted by Jessica
Bump. Because my link is funny. Really. It is. Indeed it is. And disturbing. Imagine - my biology class taught evolution but didn't relate it to alien spacecraft. I suppose that glaring omission in my education is compensated by the fact that my English class read "Dover Beach" in its unadulterated entirety.

[Jessica]

Originally posted by stefania4
I suppose that glaring omission in my education is compensated by the fact that my English class read "Dover Beach" in its unadulterated entirety.

The horror! You must have been scarred for life :rolleyes:

[Kayaksoup]

I love teh link Jessica. And the Movies in a Minute are pretty Funny. I particularily like the " Collected Movies of David Lynch"

[colleency]

I'm already a huge fan of that site Jessica. It's one of the ones that you want to point out each book to whomever is around. (which of course I did today. :D

[Jessica]

Thanks, ladies. I clearly needed some attention today :D

[pes]

After Reading the book a minute, Jessica, I finally understand DUNE:D

[Escher]

That's a fun site. I just spent one hour of my life (that I will never get back) reading them. I don't know whether to feel enlightened or used.

[stefania4]

Oh, wow - I commented on your first link (on the other page). NOW I see the link you were talking about!

[JenZen]

I don't disagree with the general sentiment of this thread. But I just wanted to comment that ideas and beliefs do not need to be hateful or made with the intent to harm in order to be racist. Treating people differently because of the color of their skin is racism, period. Whether you do it a joking, innocuous, or malicious manner is irrelevant. To call it a "misunderstanding of other cultures" is a tremendous trivialization, IMO.

Just needed to respond to this.

I meant that our definition of racism is constantly revolving. We can sit and edit the past to keep up with our current views, or we can accept the fact that what is acceptable changes as we grow wiser (if indeed we are growing wiser. that's sort of an assumption.) "Tremendous trivlization" is not what I intended, and I'm sort of offended it was taken that way. I meant that people did, and still do, say things innocently without meaning them to be racist. Today's culture now takes those things as racist comments, because we have grown to be ever-so-sensitive in our race discussions.

There was misunderstanding. You can't tell me that Native Americans weren't misunderstood as a race. History has shown that cultural assumptions can be dangerous. My statement was no where near a "tremendous trivialization." It's a very deep topic, and by merely labeling it "racist," I think that's a trivialization.

[JenZen]

One more thought.

I guess my point is that ignorance can be the cause of racism. So can hatred.

Racism is never a good thing, but it can be understood in context.