Puppy Potting training

[fudi2000]

Okay, DH and I finally broke down and got a puppy. Cute as a button I tells ya. Here's the problem. I can't get the kid to go outside and potty. We catch him in the act and throw him outside, but it's been so long since I've had puppy I don't remember what I'm supposed to do. Am I supposed to take him out every few minutes,hours etc? ARGH!!!!!!!! Can someone help? Poor DH hasn't slept in 2 days because he's up with the dog. He won't sleep during the night and we haven't gotten a crate yet to crate train.
Thanks for your help ya'll

Theresa

[hlao23]

Maybe try a google search. It's been a while for me too, but I think you're supposed to take him out at regular intervals including: in the morning, X amount of time after meals, and before bed. Good luck.

[Grace]

You need a crate!!!! If you let him continue going in the house for the short term, it will be just that much harder to "undo" what he's now learned and re-train him to go outside, so go get that crate ASAP! Then you KEEP him in the crate. When you want to let him out for some freedom, IMMEDIATELY take him outside (and you have to go WITH him), and say "OUT". Stay out there with him until he goes and praise like heck when he does. If he won't go say, within 5 minutes (maybe even less, you don't want him to think "out" means playtime), take him back in and put him BACK IN THE CRATE. Wait 20 minutes or a 1/2 hour and go out with him again. Keep doing this until he goes. Again, when he goes, praise like heck. Only after he's done his business outside should you allow him ANY freedom around the house. Also, all puppies have to go when they wake up from a nap, so always make sure you take him out when he gets up from a nap, or immediately after he eats or drinks. But don't give him too much freedom around the house for quite awhile (it might seem mean, but it's not, I promise). He should be in his crate whenever you can't watch him 100% of the time. Of course, you'll want to make time every day (as much as possible) to let him be out of his crate to play with you and run around, but only do it after he's been outside and done his business, and when you can devote 100% attention to him. If you do happen to catch him in the act in the house, give him a firm "NO!", scoop him up and rush him outside - go out with him - don't just put him out by himself - (again while you say "OUT!"). Always praise like heck when he does his business outside. Consistency is KEY with potty training (with all training, but especially potty training). Making sure you keep him on a schedule of some sort, ALWAYS take him out after a nap or eating or drinking, and not allowing him freedom out of the crate until he's done his business outside will work beautifully unless you're not consistent.

Good luck, and don't worry, you'll get there! He won't have to live in his crate forever. One of mine needed the crate til she was 1-1/2 years old, the other only needed it til she was 8 months old. But neither have ever needed it again since then, and they're now 7 and 4.

What kind of puppy did you get? I love puppies... :D :D :D

[patissac]

I can't do the crate thing, what we always did was use those puppy training pads, its like a big absorbent pad that you lay on the floor. What you can also do is time him, when he usually goes potty and let him outside, don't let him back in untill he's done his business then highly praise him! :)

[PAMMELA]

I always have had outside dogs pretty much. When my older one came in last year for his last year with us,:( he was never formally potty trained, but he was perfect! Told me when he wanted to go out and everything. I dunno, that crating just seems mean to me. I'm too much of a softy! :rolleyes:

[Grace]

I think NOT having a crate is mean. Puppies can get into so many dangerous things - they can chew rugs or furniture or clothes that when swallowed, can block their intestines. Or what about electrical cords? ZZZZtttt!! No more puppy. Or they can get into things that can poison them, or even food that's poisonous (chocolate, onions, grapes). Or they can get into the garbage and cut themselves on lids from cans or whatever. The list is endless.

They don't need to be in their crate while they're supervised, of course, and crates are not "jails", they're a comfy "den" that most dogs love. I know dogs that continue to voluntarily use their crates even after they're no longer needed - people just leave them up and leave the door open for them to go into. They feel safe and comfortable in there.

Please, please don't view a crate as mean!! It's the kindest thing you can do for your puppy. It will keep him safe and out of trouble (without a crate, you'll undoubtedly be running around after him yelling "NO!" all the time - what kind of life is that?). And I've seen people who've locked their dogs in a bathroom or some other confined space while they were gone, and the dogs chewed up and ate the linoleum and towels and other things. THAT'S mean, if you ask me. A trip to the vet and possible surgery (to unblock their intestines) is not good dog ownership, IMO.

OK, off the soap box now.

[tamawrite]

I agree, Grace. My dog doesn't always want to go in her kennel when told, but that's just because she doesn't want us to leave her alone. She goes in there all the time to sleep or hang out while we're home.

[greysangel]

Well we wanted Angus to be able to go inside or outside because there are days where he is home for an extended period of time by himself. We did the paper/wee wee pad training first. You close off a room and spread papers all over the floor and praise him/her for going to the bathroom there. Then you make the paper area smaller and smaller and place the wee wee pad on top. Soon (and I do mean soon!) the dog will just be going to the pad. However we do take Angus out every morning and praised him going outside when he did as a pup. He would much rather go outside (as I think all dogs do) so he will wait if he can. We can go days without Angus using a wee wee pad, but it's there just in case. We also like being able to take a wee wee pad when we travel and know that Angus will go there as opposed to somewhere else :rolleyes:

I'm not against crating at all...we just never did it with Angus and I'm not sure whether or not to do it when we get our next child :D Angus stays downstairs during the day so he has limited space and we've never had a problem with him getting into anything...then again he is a small dog :D But I do agree the dogs like their little caves. We have a doggie hut downstairs that he loves going into when we're not playing with him. He brings all his toys in there and sleeps in there when he's not upstairs sleeping with us :)

J

[Grace]

I agree JeAnne that little dogs are somewhat different. My experience is always with big dogs (Labs!) who can be very, very destructive in a short period of time. Not to mention, when they go "wee-wee", they don't leave a little spot on the floor - they leave a big LAKE everywhere! :eek: :p So accidents are a pretty big deal.

Maybe if Theresa tells us what kind of dog she got, it might get her some better information. I can see where you would want your dog to be able to use the pads, and yours is obviously smart enough to figure that whole thing out (and actually USE the pad if she needs to!). Fortunately for us, we have great neighbors all around us who can let our "kids" out if we for some reason aren't able to get home in a reasonable amount of time, so that's our solution.

[Blissful_in_TX]

Crate training isn’t mean at all if done properly, and it was the only thing that worked for our little Anabelle. We tried paper training first, but all she did was tear the pad up. :rolleyes: So then we tried taping it down with duct tape, etc., and she’d still just rip it to shreds….and then go potty on the floor.

But now she’s 1 and 1/2 years old, and even though she doesn’t have to go in her crate, she still likes to go sleep in there every night or sometimes to just hang out. But people who leave their dog in the crate all night and all day, now that seems cruel to me.

Anyway, isn’t the rule of thumb that they should be able to hold it their age in months plus one? (ex. 2 month old holds it 3 hours)

[hlao23]

Just wanted to chime in on crate training too. I know many people who have done crate training. None of the dogs are currently ever made to use the crate but go to it voluntarily. I think most dogs feel safe in somewhat confined spaces. Our 50 lb dog squeezes under our bed, behind chairs, or under tables.

[PoppyJ]

I agree with everything that Grace is saying. Paper training a dog is training them to go in your house.

Another way to make the crate a great place for a puppy is the feed them in the crate and give them a treat anytime you put them in there. Dogs are den animals and a crate is just like a den for them...as long as the owner doesn't use it for punishment purposes.

Always take the puppy out after playing, eating, or waking up.

[lindrusso]

Theresa,

We just got our puppy (now almost 8 months) about 4 months ago and we've been crate training, which it sounds like you will be doing. Ideally, it would probably have been best to start out that way (so he wouldn't know any other way in your house), but you should still be able to use the crate successfully.

Grace gave you very good advice - it's exactly what most puppy training books and sites will tell you. As for how often you should take him out now, it depends on the age, etc. Probably every hour if very young, every 2 if a little older.

I used to think that crate training looked cruel, but I've been so happy with it. It took Bailey a good 3 weeks to stay in there overnight without a little whining, but now he'll go in sometimes on his own. I love the knowledge that I can leave the house and the puppy and know that both are safe when I'm gone or when I'm sleeping. I win-win situation. But then again I don't work long hours and was home all summer - if I were gone a lot, I'm not sure what I would do.

Good luck with your pup and post a picture if you get a chance! Here are a few websites that might help:

http://www.uwsp.edu/psych/dog/lib-puppy.htm#ph

http://www.perfectpaws.com/pup17.html

You can also do a web search for "puppy training" or "crate training" and you will find many, many sources.

Alysha :)

[PAMMELA]

Yikes, I only said it SEEMS mean!!

Again, I haven't had a inside dog (only cats) and my two labs were both outside, where I will agree they chewed and damaged so much (the wall of the outside sunroom, the bumpers off my old BMW, the 2x4's holding up the carport, ate the screen door, the list is endless). So I defer to the experts on crating.

Also, how big are these crates? I picture them all stuck inside with their sad faces staring out, and they can't move...(yes I know this isn't true, it's just the picture in my head!!)

[lindrusso]

Originally posted by PAMMELA
Also, how big are these crates? I picture them all stuck inside with their sad faces staring out, and they can't move...(yes I know this isn't true, it's just the picture in my head!!)

They come in all sizes. My crate is 42 inches in length (I forget the width - 32"?) and they have even bigger sizes for larger dogs. It is enough room for a large dog to stand up and turn around and still have a little extra room.

It's certainly not ideal for very long periods of time during the day when they need activity, but it's just fine for when you need to go out or overnight.

I agree, it does seem kind of sad and it took some getting used to the idea (my parents had dogs all their lives and never used a crate), but as long as you're not using for really long periods of time, day after day after day, and not using it as punishment, it really can be a positive experience.

And as with anything else, there's a right way and a wrong way and certainly there is potential for people to use crates in a way that IS mean.

Alysha :)

[schuh]

Well, my "puppy" is 12, so house breaking is a distant memory. But we did crate training and would do it again.

I do remember that we got our puppy in the dead of winter and traded off who would get up to take the puppy out when she whined in the middle of the night. So picture yourself shivering in the frigid cold throughout all of this ... hope this makes you feel a little better. :)

May I suggest a couple of wonderful books? The monks of New Skete wrote two wonderful books on dogs -- The Art of Raising a Puppy and How To Be Your Dog's Best Friend. (Don't be put off by the monks being the authors -- although the books have a spiritual reverence for the dogs and their relationship with people, the books are not preachy).

Lots of luck!

[ErinM]

Originally posted by fudi2000
We catch him in the act and throw him outside...
Theresa


I think this may be your first problem...dogs generally don't like to be thrown! :p (I realize you were kidding!)

Seriously though, I agree with everyone else on the crate issue. Cody was crated as a baby. He's now five years old and crating is a distant memory, to remind him he's shouldn't go in the house, I corral off the kitchen and he can be in there on floor with food/water/bed/chew toys. All he does is sleep anyway. Lately, I've been letting him have the run of the house while I'm gone at work. Knock on wood, no accidents yet. First sign of one, back in the kitchen he goes. He's a a trooper at holding it though.

[LonghornGal]

Here's Bosco in his kennel. As you can see, there's plenty of room to move around!

http://www.snapfish.com/getimageforshare/p=58341091663237321/l=31233409/s=3684784/t=PIC

As far as puppy potty time - every 2 hours. And pick up the water bowl a couple hours before bedtime to increase the amount of time you can sleep. And go buy the crate NOW so that your DH doesn't have to suffer any longer!

BTW - catch in the act and throw outside = puppy learns that peeing on floor is a signal to you that he wants to go out and play! That's dog logic for ya!

--Kristin

[Grace]

Oh Kristin, HOW CUTE!!!! I have one almost exactly like that of my little Bella when she was a pup!!! :D :D :D I'd post it, except it was from before we had the digital camera and I don't feel like scanning pictures right now - but suffice it to say, Bosco doesn't look one bit unhappy, nor was my Bella! :D I LOVE it! :D :D

[beckms]

THANK you to everyone who piped up in support of crates. I get a little tired of my soapbox every once in a while, so it's nice to sit back and let others do the explaining.

If crating seems mean, then just change the name: call it a "doggie-den". There. Not mean anymore. :D Maybe that's why we use the word "crib" for that cage-thingy we put human babies in. ;)

If your pup is really young (just a couple months), his bladder is teeny tiny and can only hold a small amount, so count on regular trips outside about every two hours and at least an hour after each meal.

Right now it might seem like he will never get trained, but he will, do't worry! Just be consistent, and things will work out.:cool:

[schuh]

Kristin,
Bosco is adorable! And he looks very comfortable in his "den."

[Natasha]

Cute picture of Bosco :D

In a similar vein, here's Cabot tucking himself in under his dog bed in his crate (in the car):

http://nm1.photosite.com/~photos/tn/151_348.ts1090361974000.jpg

http://nm1.photosite.com/~photos/tn/153_348.ts1090361976000.jpg

He was about three months old here.

Theresa, enjoy your new pup! For what it's worth, I wholeheartedly agree with all the advocates of crate training :) Cabot loves his crate; he's one of those pups who goes in there on his own sometimes for naps, and if we want him to go in we say "house" and he goes running in enthusiastically.

Natasha

[Chefzhat]

Originally posted by Grace
They don't need to be in their crate while they're supervised, of course, and crates are not "jails", they're a comfy "den" that most dogs love. I know dogs that continue to voluntarily use their crates even after they're no longer needed - people just leave them up and leave the door open for them to go into. They feel safe and comfortable in there.

My two shih-tsus love their den. We crate trained from the beginning. They still hang in their crate (which is now a comfy doggie palace!) and sleep there, plus they are in there whenever we leave the house.

Go forth, Theresa and get thee a crate!

[Cookin4Love]

Just another voice in support of crating. Of course, we have a sick sense of humor, and trained our dog to respond to the command, "Go to jail." :D However, he always loved his crate. It was where he took naps, and where he went if he was tired of hubbub (yes, it does happen SOMETIMES, even with labs) or if little kids were around all day and he just couldn't catch a break. Potty training with the crate went quickly--just a couple of weeks for the most part. Since we didn't want to buy multiple crates, we got one to fit him as an adult, then blocked off part of it when he was a cute little furball. When crating a puppy, it's important not to give them so much space that they can go potty in one corner and go sleep in the opposite corner.

I understand the mental picture of doggie abuse, because when I first heard of crate training, I was appalled. What, my cute little furbaby CONFINED??? However, it really does speed up the training, give the dog a sense of security, and keep them safe when you're not home. We trained him to the crate by offering volumes of praise and a treat every single time he went in. He LOVED going in his crate. After a couple of months, we still praised, but didn't give a treat every single time. It didn't matter; he still loved going in.

When we brought our shelter dog home about a month ago, I got the crate out again just to give her a sense of security, since she had been crated most of the time for the three months she was there. Guess who hung out in the crate instead? That's right--our lab. So, crate without guilt. Truly--our dog trainer and our vet both highly recommend it, and they love dogs and want them to be happy.

[cocoa'smom]

Take the puppy out every half hour - use a crate when you're not home and try to get someone to let it out during the day if you work all day. I used to think crates were mean, but now think its definitely the way to go. My lab is now 6 and we still have the crate (always leave the door open) - she goes in there all the time to rest or to get away from the kids fighting!

[PAMMELA]

Originally posted by beckms
Maybe that's why we use the word "crib" for that cage-thingy we put human babies in. ;)

LOL, I got a nice guffaw out of that!!:D

I had another thought. Could this crating business be more of a midwest type of thing? To be quite honest, we've had dogs all our life (born/raised Socal) and I have never even heard of it!!:confused:

[lindrusso]

Originally posted by PAMMELA
I had another thought. Could this crating business be more of a midwest type of thing? To be quite honest, we've had dogs all our life (born/raised Socal) and I have never even heard of it!!:confused:

The first time I ever saw it was in the home of a couple that lives in PA and has lived on the East Coast all their lives. So, not just a Midwest thing, but perhaps not as popular out on the West Coast?

[PAMMELA]

Another thought: maybe the weather is nice enough out here on the West Coast that we can have our animals out year round. Mid West and East Coast, i'm sure you can't do that, so they would be indoor animals which would make sense. Maybe??

[schuh]

Well, the books I've read say that dogs want to be with "their pack," meaning living mostly inside with the people who own them. Outdoor dogs don't tend to be as happy, leading to behaviors like digging, barking, chewing, etc. While warmer climates could be more conducive to leaving dogs outside for a longer period of time, teaching the dog how to live inside (even though it involves using a crate) may actually make for a happier dog.

Maybe it's different with more than one dog -- perhaps together they become a "pack."

Now that's what I've read. I don't pretend to be an expert.

[PAMMELA]

Originally posted by schuh
Maybe it's different with more than one dog -- perhaps together they become a "pack."

I agree here. I would NEVER have only one dog that stayed outside exclusively. Especially since DH and I work all day. I have always had two dogs, so that they wouldn't be lonely. And I never had any behavioral problems.

Out here, big dogs are mostly outside dogs. We would let our two labs in, but 10 minutes later, they wanted out.

[schuh]

Originally posted by PAMMELA


We would let our two labs in, but 10 minutes later, they wanted out.

My lab is the opposite. We put her out and 10 minutes later she wants in! Of course, it could be because she's worried about missing some opportunity to snatch or beg for food.:)

We take her to a kennel that has long runs with a small indoor area and a longer outdoor area, with a dog door in between. I think she likes the freedom to go in and out, because after a stay there she barks to go out, barks to come in, barks to go out, barks to come in in, every 10 minutes or so. It makes me crazy! I don't think I could deal with a dog door, though.

[Grace]

Originally posted by PAMMELA


And I never had any behavioral problems.



In your post towards the beginning of this thread you said this:

"my two labs were both outside, where I will agree they chewed and damaged so much (the wall of the outside sunroom, the bumpers off my old BMW, the 2x4's holding up the carport, ate the screen door, the list is endless)."

I call destroying everything a behavioral problem!

[PAMMELA]

Labs are animals that chew, always have been, always will. I don't call chewing a behavioral problem, I call that their nature.

[Grace]

You've got to be kidding me??? Urination and defication are also in a Lab's nature. Doing it in the house is what makes it a behavioral problem. Chewing stuff they're not supposed to and destroying things is a behavioral problem, not to mention a hazard to their health. Chewing things that are safe and non-essential (bones, chewing toys, etc.) is what any dog needs to learn. Keeping them crated until they learn what's an acceptable chew toy/place to go to the bathroom, etc. is what good training and good dog ownership is all about, IMO.

[PAMMELA]

Well as I stated before, my dogs were outside. If i'm not home all day and they have toys to chew, but choose to chew on something else, what do you do? He grew out of it by a year and a half. My GF has two chocolate labs. They are both ouside only. They did the same thing, and also stopped around the same age. I mean, short of getting rid of them, if you aren't there, i'm not sure what you can do. I won't keep my dogs locked in a run all day and night. That's just me.

[beckms]

Chewing is normal for puppies. But adult dogs who continue to destroy things are exhibiting signs of boredom and lack of stimulation.

[PAMMELA]

That's what I was trying to say. They did grow out of it and then were abslutely fine. No other problems ever as far as behaving, etc.

[Grace]

I'm with you, PoppyJ! And as I stated earlier, you DON'T keep your dog "locked up" in the crate all day and all night - you only keep them in there when they can't be supervised, and only until they've been supervised long enough to have learned what's unacceptable behavior and what's acceptable. Destroying my house and property (inside or out) is unacceptable in my view, even from puppies (who I agree, NEED to chew - but I want them to chew things that are SAFE and ACCEPTABLE). And there was NO WAY I would have gotten "rid of" my dogs either. Once they learn (as you've mentioned, Pammela) it's not a problem anymore and they don't need the crate. But why allow them to destroy anything in the first place, and beyond that, to possibly harm themselves? What if they swallow large splintery pieces of the 2x4's? What if they actually ate part of the screen in the screen door and it blocked their intestines? What if something they swallowed was poisonous? It's like kids. It's in their nature to run around and not look where they're going. Should we just let them run around outside near the streets and let them get hit, assuming "they'll grow out of it" at some point? Or what about their curiousity to touch things? Should we just let them touch the stove or hot iron and get burned and just say, "well, they'll learn and not do it anymore?" Of course not. I have two labs too, and they NEVER destroyed anything (well, I take that back, my older one chewed a pair of shorts of mine, of all things). But never furniture, linoleum, rugs, walls, screen doors, BUMPERS, electrical cords, nor did they ever get into the garbage. They are so well behaved now, and I can leave them home for hours (although I don't, but I could) with no worry of coming home to anything destroyed, and they haven't needed their crates for years and years. But I would have been a nervous wreck with worry if I had left them home alone with no crate as puppies.

And to PoppyJ's point, they ARE social animals, and while they have each other, what they really need is the house full of people who own them. They want to be part of everything. I also do not understand what the point of having a dog is if it's entire life will be spent outside away from the family. :confused: :confused:

[PAMMELA]

Originally posted by PoppyJ
I was trying to bite my tongue on this one and I know I am just asking to get flamed, but why do people bother getting pets if they are going to keep them outside at all times?!?!? Dogs are social animals and if you think keeping them in a crate is cruel, what about keeping them away from their "pack"? And taking them for a walk once a day just isn't enough.

Sorry, this is one of those things that sends me off the deep end. I have never figured out what someone gets a dog and then proceeds to throw it outside and only go out there to feed and water it. Animals need love and attention. If you don't want the dog hair and dirt in your house, don't get a dog.

Wow, where did that come from? First of all, we don't "throw our animals outside and only go out to feed and water them". DH and I both work full time jobs and we are not home during the day. We are outside most evenings, playing with and giving our dogs love and attention. Two dogs. Two to be together. We bbq most evenings, we spend the majority of nights outside with them. Nothing to do with dirt or dog hair in my house, our dogs are big dogs and they wanted outside to play after being in for 10 minutes (which I also said previously, implying that we do let them in). We have a 1/3 of an acre back yard which was their playground. I am a huge animal lover and take offense to the notion that if your animal isn't inside, you shoudn't have one. Please. I also have 3 cats that are inside only, as I don't believe in having cats that are outside as there is too much potential for them getting hurt. One of my labss died last June 2003 at age 12 from a seizure. At that point in time my other lab became a house dog only, he was 13. He was inside for a year. I was given a trip to Hawaii for my 15 year anniversary here at my job in July of 2003 and we are going in May 2005. Why? Becuase I couldn't leave my dog in his final year to go on a 7 day vacation. He was my baby. Never formally potty trained, but never had an accident. We had to put him to sleep this last May. They were the most spoiled dogs ever and had a great life, so please don't imply that if animals are outside only, that they are somehow neglected and people like "me" shouldn't have any.


Editing to add that PoppyJ's post is gone? How interesting.

[PoppyJ]

I deleted my post because I realized I would offend a lot of people and I don't like getting into it with people who I don't know and have no idea how they live their lives. I wasn't directing the comments at anyone in particular. I am very involved in the dog world and have very strong feelings about animals in general. I stick my foot in my mouth more times than not when it comes to the treatment of animals.

I am sorry if I offended you Pammela, but honestly it was a general question/statement.

[PAMMELA]

Originally posted by PoppyJ
I deleted my post because I realized I would offend a lot of people and I don't like getting into it with people who I don't know and have no idea how they live their lives. I wasn't directing the comments at anyone in particular. I am very involved in the dog world and have very strong feelings about animals in general. I stick my foot in my mouth more times than not when it comes to the treatment of animals.

I am sorry if I offended you Pammela, but honestly it was a general question/statement.

Well we apparently have differing opinions and I did feel that you were directing the comment to me, as I am apparently the only person on the entire board who has "outside" dogs. I am a lover of all animals and have always spoiled them to death. DH and I have no children, so our animals are our kids and any one of my family or friends would tell you that that's how they are treated. My dogs chewed things as puppies but I guess I was lucky that they never ate anything that made them sick, or hurt them. I raised them my way, and they turned out beautifully (yep even after chewing stuff up).

I probably shouldn't even have commented on this thread, so i'm done. No hard feelings to anyone.

[gracey]

I am a crate convert b/c it really helped solve the "puppy schedule" problem. My golden retriever puppy was having some accidents in the kitchen and I was at a loss as to his schedule -- if you miss taking him out when he needs to, even by 10 minutes, it throws off the whole plan. He also never learned that just b/c he thought it was time to go, it might need to wait just a bit. The crate fixed the problem in a week. I don't know if I will use it indefintely, but for now, he likes it and I like it.

I quickly got over my opinion that crate training is mean after he pulled up nails from my floor. Also, as my vet says, when a small dog chews on something you have a few teeth marks on the baseboard, where a big dog makes the whole doorframe disappear.

[beckms]

If there's one thing that I've been learning over and over and over in vet school, it's that there are so many differing viewpoints regarding what is appropriate for pet care.

I also balk when I hear the term "outside dog", but as always, it depends on the situation. Personally, I would never do it. I love having dogs because I love letting them be part of the family, which, to me, includes living inside with the people. I accept the dirt and the dog hair as part of having a dog. I'm with you, Grace, in thinking that people who don't want to deal with that stuff should not get a dog.

BF's parents have always had outside dogs, and I've never been comfortable with that. And for them, it truly is a dirt/dog hair issue. But then, these are the same people who chose to furnish their whole house with white carpet and furniture when their two young sons were growing up, which I'll also never relate to. I don't understand why they even get dogs, if they're really just cosmetic.

Then again, there are my own parents, who have inside dogs and accept the dog hair and the dirt factors and love animals, and yet never ever take the dogs for a walk. And consqeuently have the most obese beagle and lab you've ever seen.

The short of it is, no matter how you choose to house your dog, what really matters is that they have enough food and water, comfortable shelter (inside or outside), and true attention paid to their needs, including playtime, walks, toys, treats, etc. An inside dog who is neglected and alone all day can be just as abused as an outside dog who is neglected and alone all day.

[Grace]

Of course you're right, and the discussion was really about the use of a crate, not whether or not having outside dogs is right/wrong. The whole issue of the outside dog thing came up as an aside, and I basically wrote one or two sentences about my feelings on that. But the real issue is crating, and I think crating is important for inside or outside dogs not only to potty train (which for outside dogs, isn't really an issue), but for all kinds of training, and most importantly to keep them SAFE until they can be trusted unsupervised. That was my REAL point.

[PAMMELA]

I said I was done with this thread but I just have to comment one last time. Grace, you said you wrote "one or two sentences" about outside dogs. Well if you read back, I believe you wrote your opinons about outside dogs as a novella. And i will reiterate that these are your opinions. In Southern California I have never heard of crating. Ever. If you crate your animals in the midwest or back east, that's fine, and that's your choice, I wouldn't do do it here. Dogs are by nature, outside creatures and I think it's cruel to leave them inside all day, when they could be outside running and playing and exercising in the beautiful weather that we have here. They are pack animals like someone else posted, but our dogs were happy in their pack of two. Maybe your weather dictates whether your animals are in or out. Ours dictates out. My dogs preferred to be outside where they could behave like the animals they are. Nothing to do with dog hair or dirt. I have three cats inside, they are like our children, as were our dogs. I don't really care about the dirt or hair mentioned, it's just a house. I've never had a problem with them urinating or defacating in the house. Was that the original poster's problem? Again, we call our animals "outside" but it's not that they never come in. They didn't WANT to be inside. The original question was potty training, it wasn't about crating. I believe you can potty train your puppy without crating it. We did it our whole life. My first comment when I posted here was meant to be lighthearted, it wasn't meant to invite the type of comments received. People have their own opinions. I believe i'm right in how I raised my animals and you can believe how you raised yours was right. To each his own. I don't know you, and i would never presume to know how you treat or raise your animals, and never would presume to think that my way is the only way. I would only ask the same in return.

[beckms]

Pammela, that's interesting that you think crating is a regional thing. I've never been to California, so I don't know about it; I just know that I've grown up knowing about crating. I wonder if weather really does have a lot to do with it. I'd be interested to know what your vet has to say if you ask him/her about crating.

I'm not challenging you here, I'm genuinely curious, since I never considered the possibility of crating being localized. I thought it had more to do with modernity and people more and more learning about dog behavior.

[Grace]

You do have a right to do whatever you want, and there's nothing I can do about it, of course. But I have a right to my opinion, and leaving puppies to fend for themselves unsupervised is still something I consider irresponsible dog ownership, and I don't care if anyone disagrees or thinks that's judgemental.

And I re-read my posts, and my "novellas" were completely in defense of crating - the only thing I wrote about my feelings on outside dogs were these three sentences:

"And to PoppyJ's point, they ARE social animals, and while they have each other, what they really need is the house full of people who own them. They want to be part of everything. I also do not understand what the point of having a dog is if it's entire life will be spent outside away from the family."

My ideas about crating do not apply only to inside dogs - I believe in making sure a dog is safe from harm whether it lives indoors or out.

[Cookin4Love]

Just as a regional note--I live in the Southwest, and almost everyone I know who has a dog has used crate training--even the natives from this area (like me). Our weather is nice enough that dogs could be outside at least 9 months a year, so I don't really think it's a regional thing. I do know, however, that I hadn't really heard about it until I got my first puppy after I was an adult. I think that's more a factor that my parents weren't "dog people," although they let us have pets and took care of them. They just never would've spent the energy to research different forms of potty training or spent the money on a crate.