I'm getting so tired of this

[little_bopeep]

First, let me start off by saying that I mean no disrespect to any people or nationality with the following vent. My comments are about the employers, not the employees.

That said, I'm darn sick and tired of calling my customer service number for customer service only to get a rep in India whose first language is not English. I've called 2 different companies in the past week and suffered through lousy phone connections and being hung up on just so I can ask some pretty basic questions 5 different times. I understand trying to save a buck, but when customer service suffers and customers leave (I cancelled a service over this issue), where's the advantage?

My apologies...I seem to dimly remember this topic having been addressed recently, but I still needed to vent. Thanks for the opportunity. :)

[yorkshirepud]

As a sidenote, there was a piece on this here in Canada a few weeks ago. I don't recall which news station put it out. But, it did say, besides being cost effective, another large reason companies chose India as there choice is because training someone to speak with an English accent was easier in India.

Hope you're vent made me feel better. :)

[Beth]

I think the article I read about this recently was in the Wall Street Journal -- said some businesses are starting to bring the service numbers back for just the reasons you stated.

Customer service from someone who can understand you and who can speak so you can understand them, from someone who is less than half a world away and might actually care about whether they can solve your problem and the ability to talk to a real person who actually can and will solve your problem is worth 50 cents or a dollar more to me (something in the article made me think that was about the cost to the company on a per customer or per transaction basis). I hope the trend continues -- like you, not meaning anything against any nationality or anything. I just want people to be able to communicate clearly with me as the first requirement in being able to solve problems or answer questions. It can be hard enough in your own hometown.

[wallycat]

Coming from another country (and having parents with VERY thick accents), I can safely say, I agree with you.
If language/communication is a major part of the job, the individuals should be able to be understood.

I called Microsoft with my computer issue a few days ago and I felt stupid that i had to repeat "what?" for 1/2 the conversation.

When they sent me an e-mail to see how my service was, I did include that "I want to apologize for having to have said "what" so many times, but the accent was so thick and I wanted to ensure I was typing in and doing the proper things with my computer." Hopefully someone will read that and understand.

[Terri_A]

...And it's not just that their English isn't always clear, but there is a serious communication problem when they do not function in our culture. There are nuances to the English language that change as pop culture or trends change. I highly doubt the India based customer service reps are updated on how our speech is changing -

[schuh]

Oh man, I called AT&T twice last week because I was moving. It was terribly hard to understand the thick Indian accents of the customer service people. I'm not doing business with AT&T again.

I had a T.A. in college that was Indian. Once you got used to his accent, he was an absolutely delightful instructor -- in fact, the best in his department. I have absolutely nothing against Indian people. But in telephone customer service, you don't have the benefit of being in person and seeing gestures, and you also don't have the time to get accustomed to the accent.

I hope this is a trend that reverses itself (but I'm not optimistic).

[HejazSunKat]

Originally posted by schuh
I had a T.A. in college that was Indian. Once you got used to his accent, he was an absolutely delightful instructor

This is what I was going to say. I worked with an Indian lady here in KSA and had the WORST time with her accent when we first started working together even though she is a native English speaker which I think most of the Indian customer service reps you're encountering are. That's why the American companies go there instead of to other countries - because there's already an established, well-educated English speaking population there. I got used to my friend's pattern of speech and we were able to communicate just fine after oh...3 years! :D No seriously...I think we're in a learning curve on both sides. This trend to outsource jobs that Americans don't want to do or that American companies find cheaper to have done abroad is not going away and I think sooner or later we're all going to get quite comfortable listening to accents. Welcome to globalization. :)

I saw a piece on 60 Minutes not too long ago about how desirable these jobs are in India (so hopefully less turnover than you'd get in the same job in the US and maybe in the long run a more effective customer service rep) and how few applicants get accepted for them. The accepted candidates are then put through language training to de-Indianize their accents and train them on American speech patterns. I think we're very spoiled consumers in America. We expect our concerns to be attended to with a minimum amount of trouble to us. I'm not trying to minimize your frustration because I'm sure it's valid and I'm sure I'd feel the same way. Especially when you're calling about a problem you're already frustrated and want action but then to have to work to understand and be understood takes alot of patience. Since KSA is a place where an enormous percentage of the workforce is imported I've been dealing with accent problems for 6 years now in my every day work life and the first tendency after awhile is to just assume the person on the other end of the line is a moron which really isn't fair. In the case of US consumers dealing with Indian customer service reps I think we've already got a chip on our shoulders against them because we're being told by the media and certain politicians that THOSE people are doing OUR jobs. It's a 'sexy' issue for politicians to whip up a crowd with but I'm not necessarily convinced it's always a bad thing for the US economy or consumer.

[yorkshirepud]

HejazSunKat, I think it was 60 Minutes I was referring to in my first post regarding Indians being trained to speak with an English accent. Thanks for clearing it up for me. I was searching all the CDN news stations for it.

[tbb113]

Originally posted by HejazSunKat


This trend to outsource jobs that Americans don't want to do or that American companies find cheaper to have done abroad is not going away and I think sooner or later we're all going to get quite comfortable listening to accents. Welcome to globalization. :)

In the case of US consumers dealing with Indian customer service reps I think we've already got a chip on our shoulders against them because we're being told by the media and certain politicians that THOSE people are doing OUR jobs. It's a 'sexy' issue for politicians to whip up a crowd with but I'm not necessarily convinced it's always a bad thing for the US economy or consumer.


I respectfully disagree with you. I don't think these are jobs taht Americans don't want to do. Many types of jos are being outsourced today in addition to call centers (tax preparation, x-ray reading, computer programming, to name a few that I'm aware of). All of these jobs are jobs that many, many people wish to do in this country. The main reason the jobs are being outsourced is because of the huge decrease in salaries and benefits to the company by paying an outsourcing firm over using workers in America.

There is also a huge hit to the American economy when jobs are outsourced. The people that are affected by the job loss are no longer paying taxes and purchasing goods. Instead we are helping India's (or whatever country we outsource to) economy. The money being paid to the employees is staying within that country. And lets face it, most of them couldn't afford American goods even with the increased pay rate. So, I don't see how they are helping our economy.

[schuh]

Originally posted by tbb113


I don't see how they are helping our economy.

The argument (from econ class) is that Americans see the reward with higher profits, higher stock prices that generate wealth, etc.

But I agree wtih you -- the export of jobs is more detrimental than it is beneficial, for a number of reasons. I think our government should make it harder for companies to export jobs.

But I try hard not to take this thinking out on the Indians who answer the phone (as frustrated as I become). They are just doing their jobs.

[tbb113]

Originally posted by schuh


The argument (from econ class) is that Americans see the reward with higher profits, higher stock prices that generate wealth, etc.



Trickle down economics at its best :D

[mbrogier]

My husband is in the computer industry and has access to some insider information that was quite telling about the outsourcing trend. The Indians do not have any job loyalty and will jump to a new company for a $1 an hour pay increase. A lot of big companies who thought that they could outsource their programming have started to figure out that maybe that's not such a good idea. Their employees are getting trained and leaving for bigger and better things. I think a lot of smart companies will come crawling back within the next 5-10 years.

[cangoss]

I recently had problems with an order from Imagestation - when I opened the envelope with my prints, I discovered that I had two envelopes full of some other family's trip to Washington DC. I called Imagestation to find out how to send these back or otherwise remedy the situation, and after I explained it to the woman, who I strongly suspect was Indian, she said "I don't understand. What is the problem?" My answer - "I'm sure this woman is wondering where her photos are and they're in my living room!". After three phone calls with Imagestation, I was never contacted by the "Trouble Team", so instead I tried the web site customer service form, and I got a quick response with the answer that I could pitch the prints because they would re-print the photos and take care of it. Now, why couldn't they have told me that the first time I called? I'm sticking with online help in the future!

[badunnin]

It always cracks me up when I get a customer service rep that sounds just like Apu from the Simpsons, and he introduces himself as Bruce. ;)

[VictoriaL]

Originally posted by badunnin
It always cracks me up when I get a customer service rep that sounds just like Apu from the Simpsons, and he introduces himself as Bruce. ;)

Or Leon. Seriously! :)

I have a Dell desktop and laptop and will not buy another of their products unless I am unable to locate another (quality) computer manufacturer who doesn't outsource its tech support to India. Yes, the techs I have spoken with certainly know what they're doing, but it's so darn difficult to understand them. I was recently on for almost two hours to get a problem sloved and after I hung up I was absolutely exhausted!

Also, I've discovered that you really have to be careful with a sense of humor.

Tech guy- "Now I will need you to remove that cover because we are going to remove the memory"
Me (the technophobe)- "Uh, do I really have to do this?"
T.G.- "Yes"
Me- "Really, is there another way? I'm not comfortable doing this."
T.G.- "It is very easy"
Me- "Well maybe to you it is easy."
T.G.- "I will tell you what to do."
Me- "I don't know about this. If you handed me a scalpel and told me to do brain surgery, I probably would be more comfortable."
T.G.- "Are you a doctor?"
Me- "No I was just making a joke."
T.G. "Doctors are smart, you just have to do this once and you'll learn"
Me- "but I'm really not a doctor"
T.G.- Okay, Dr. (my last name), this will be very easy."

The tech guy (I believe this one was named Ian), continued to call me Doctor through the remainder of the phone call. I just stopped trying to explain! :D

[mbrogier]

I was on the phone with Citibank for some reason. (probably complaining to them for calling me repeatedly before 9AM on Saturdays...) I asked "Apu" where he was located. He said Richmond. I have a friend who lives in Richmond. She has friends who work at Citibank's headquarters in Richmond. There is no call center in Richmond. :o :D I knew that already. They also pick the wierdest American names...like Ethel.

[jmarie]

This trend to outsource jobs that Americans don't want to do

Yeah, right. I think this is a GROSS generalization and I have to disagree with you.:o My daughter (and just about everyone she works with) would be devastated, if their jobs were outsourced. She works in a technical support center. Usually, when someone leaves, it is because their numbers aren't good and they are asked to leave. People just aren't quitting for something better, because there is not much better to be found around here.

But then our fast food restaurants do not have help wanted signs on their doors either. If these companies want to outsource, why not outsource to economically deprived areas in the United States, like ours, where the jobs would be much appreciated? There will be a southern drawl :D , but you could at least understand the person you are talking to.

[HejazSunKat]

Originally posted by tbb113
So, I don't see how they are helping our economy.

How about cheaper products or services for US consumers? You could be right Tyra, I'm not sure. I haven't laid claim to being an expert on the phenomenon I was just expressing the thought that I'm not sure it is always wrong as some politicians and the media would have us believe. John Kerry for one has been using it as a campaign ploy. He's going to stop American jobs from going overseas. People eat that up but I'm skeptical of rhethoric like that because this is too complex and issue and he is highly motivated to say that. Here, have a look at this as food for thought:

March 7, 2004, Sunday
EDITORIAL DESK


The Secret Of Our Sauce

By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN ( Op-Ed ) 764 words
BANGALORE, India -- Yamini Narayanan is an Indian-born 35-year-old with a Ph.D. in economics from the University of Oklahoma. After graduation, she worked for a U.S. computer company in Virginia and recently moved back to Bangalore with her husband to be closer to family. When I asked her how she felt about the outsourcing of jobs from her adopted country, America, to her native country, India, she responded with a revealing story:

''I just read about a guy in America who lost his job to India and he made a T-shirt that said, 'I lost my job to India and all I got was this [lousy] T-shirt.' And he made all kinds of money.'' Only in America, she said, shaking her head, would someone figure out how to profit from his own unemployment. And that, she insisted, was the reason America need not fear outsourcing to India: America is so much more innovative a place than any other country.

There is a reason the ''next big thing'' almost always comes out of America, said Mrs. Narayanan. When she and her husband came back to live in Bangalore and enrolled their son in a good private school, he found himself totally stifled because of the emphasis on rote learning -- rather than the independent thinking he was exposed to in his U.S. school. They had to take him out and look for another, more avant-garde private school. ''America allows you to explore your mind,'' she said. The whole concept of outsourcing was actually invented in America, added her husband, Sean, because no one else figured it out.

The Narayanans are worth listening to at this time of rising insecurity over white-collar job losses to India. America is the greatest engine of innovation that has ever existed, and it can't be duplicated anytime soon, because it is the product of a multitude of factors: extreme freedom of thought, an emphasis on independent thinking, a steady immigration of new minds, a risk-taking culture with no stigma attached to trying and failing, a noncorrupt bureaucracy, and financial markets and a venture capital system that are unrivaled at taking new ideas and turning them into global products.

''You have this whole ecosystem [that constitutes] a unique crucible for innovation,'' said Nandan Nilekani, the C.E.O. of Infosys, India's I.B.M. ''I was in Europe the other day and they were commiserating about the 400,000 [European] knowledge workers who have gone to live in the U.S. because of the innovative environment there. The whole process where people get an idea and put together a team, raise the capital, create a product and mainstream it -- that can only be done in the U.S. It can't be done sitting in India. The Indian part of the equation [is to help] these innovative [U.S.] companies bring their products to the market quicker, cheaper and better, which increases the innovative cycle there. It is a complimentarity we need to enhance.''

That is so right. As Robert Hof, a tech writer for Business Week, noted, U.S. tech workers ''must keep creating leading edge technologies that make their companies more productive -- especially innovations that spark entirely new markets.'' The same tech innovations that produced outsourcing, he noted, also produced eBay, Amazon.com, Google and thousands of new jobs along with them.

This is America's real edge. Sure Bangalore has a lot of engineering schools, but the local government is rife with corruption; half the city has no sidewalks; there are constant electricity blackouts; the rivers are choked with pollution; the public school system is dysfunctional; beggars dart in and out of the traffic, which is in constant gridlock; and the whole infrastructure is falling apart. The big high-tech firms here reside on beautiful, walled campuses, because they maintain their own water, electricity and communications systems. They thrive by defying their political-economic environment, not by emerging from it.

What would Indian techies give for just one day of America's rule of law; its dependable, regulated financial markets; its efficient, noncorrupt bureaucracy; and its best public schools and universities? They'd give a lot.

These institutions, which nurture innovation, are our real crown jewels that must be protected -- not the 1 percent of jobs that might be outsourced. But it is precisely these crown jewels that can be squandered if we become lazy, or engage in mindless protectionism, or persist in radical tax cutting that can only erode the strength and quality of our government and educational institutions.

Our competitors know the secret of our sauce. But do we?

[jmarie]

originally posted by ttb113
So, I don't see how they are helping our economy.
I have to agree.



originally posted by HejazSunKat
How about cheaper products or services for US consumers?

If you don't have a job, for whatever reason, be it outsourcing or other, about the only way you can afford it is if it is free. And that is not about to happen. :(

[Natasha]

Originally posted by badunnin
It always cracks me up when I get a customer service rep that sounds just like Apu from the Simpsons, and he introduces himself as Bruce. ;)

Thing is, there are a lot of Christians in India, especially certain regions. These people sometimes do have Western-sounding names but could still have very strong Indian accents. I'm not saying that's usually the case with call centre reps, mind you, but at least once in a while those names could be their real names :)

Just my little sidenote... back to your regularly scheduled thread! :D

Natasha

[tbb113]

All of the call center reps are asked to take American sounding names. My personal favorite is Elvis :D .

The real problem with outsourcing is that you are taking good paying jobs away from the US and placing them in struggling economies. Yes, its good for the bottom line of the company that is using the outsourced employees. Is it affecting the price charged to the consumer? Who really knows? But once my job (and yes its getting to the point where it could be my job) is outsourced, I'm not going to be buying those consumer goods since my income will be affected. Its one thing when relatively low-skilled jobs are outsourced since you can retrain and match your lost salary. But when you start outsourcing high paying, skilled jobs (radiology, computer programmers, tax preperation) its much harder to match the salary in a new field. There is also security/privacy issues to deal with (which is a whole other topic).

As the mother of teenagers, I will do everything in my power to convince my children to get jobs in an industry where you have to be on-site to do your work (physical therapy, construction management, etc) as opposed to a job that could be done through tele-commuting. If you can work at home and get your job done, it can be outsourced :(

[Laurielee]

"I called Microsoft with my computer issue a few days ago and I felt stupid that i had to repeat "what?" for 1/2 the conversation. "

ditto to Wallycat.

2 years ago I had to call quickbooks for a business related issue, I was on the phone for over 2 hours, their support is in India, and every other word I said was what did you say? because the indian accent so thick, I think I could have spent less than half the time on the phone if I had understood the person. I was new at my company and didnt realize the tech support was a toll call. So I had rang up $100 phone bill because I spent most of my time saying what did you say and please repeat. I was so mad! now all of their tech support in no charge.

I heard a few months ago, there were so many complaints from Dell customers, they moved their call centers back to the states

Laurie

[Valerie226]

This is a hot topic for me. I also have a Dell computer & ended up with a series of people who could not help because either I could not understand them or they could not understand me. Everyone was unfailingly nice but the problem never got defined or resolved. each additional thing I did (at their instruction) made things worse and made the history of the problem get more and more impossible to explain. I quit being nice on the service followup emails & wrote a long missive on how I will NEVER buy another computer unless I am sure customer service is in the US. ( I am as we speak, changing ISP's because of the same thing. Got routed to India, spent very frustrating hours trying to get a (probably )simple problem fixed without success.
The more technical the subject the worse the language barrier gets! besides, I object to sending jobs needed here somewhere else. Maybe it's futile, but it is becoming my main deciding point on whether to buy a product or service. If they off shore their service, I'll keep looking.

[Beth]

Different but related issue sonce this often comes up with computer and software companies -- don't you love it when the person you can barely understand tells you to start doing things to your computer, reading from a script, and your realize neither you nor they know what it is you are doing?

I have a problem with someone telling me to delete stuff off a computer or to change settings if they can't tell me what they are or why I should change them whether they have an accent or not. I think that all too often, they just start reading from a script and ignore what you have told them you have tried or what they have already told you -- it doens't seem to mean anything. Hello? Can we actually train these people so they know something about what they are doing, no matter where they are? Thank you.

[sonia9498]

Originally posted by VictoriaL


Or Leon. Seriously! :)

I have a Dell desktop and laptop and will not buy another of their products unless I am unable to locate another (quality) computer manufacturer who doesn't outsource its tech support to India. Yes, the techs I have spoken with certainly know what they're doing, but it's so darn difficult to understand them. I was recently on for almost two hours to get a problem sloved and after I hung up I was absolutely exhausted!



I had the same problem with Dell. DH was getting so frusterated with our problem after our 4th call to the tech center he said "I know your name isn't John and don't tell me that you understand my problem - I want to speak to someone in the US" Dell is a very frusterating company to speak too. We asked each person where they were from and we talked to people from both India and China.

After my problems with my computer I had to call Microsoft to address problems with my modem and had to go through this all over again. Luckily, my probelm was so complicated that it went up through 2 supervisors and I got to talk to someone in the US and then the guy gave me a secret phone number that directly went to the US technical customer service number.

[schuh]

Originally posted by sonia9498
We asked each person where they were from and we talked to people from both India and China.

Funny, when I was getting exasperated with my AT&T service call, I asked, "where ARE you?" The woman said that for security purposes, they couldn't tell us. For security purposes, I can't know what COUNTRY I'm calling? At least they could be honest about it.

[Escher]

Originally posted by tbb113
All of the call center reps are asked to take American sounding names. My personal favorite is Elvis :D .


Elvis is not an American name....

I'm too lazy to do the lookup, but I believe it's a common name in SE European countries....

Oh, the things you learn from sports (Elvis Grbac)....

[gertdog]

DH recently participated in a Delta Airlines survey. One of the questions was something along the lines of "Would you be willing to pay a small fee to talk to a customer service representative in the United States?" (e.g. rather than at one of the India call centers). Yikes.

I needed help with my wireless router last week and Netgear clearly outsources their tech support. I spoke to two different, polite, and heavily accented people. I think if we had just been having an everyday conversation I would have understood enough to get by, but given that the router itself was a new and unfamiliar piece of equipment with associated new vocabulary, I had a lot of trouble. Very frustrating for me, and I wonder how it feels to be the service rep who is listening to me say "You want me to switch what setting to... what??" again and again.

[Lil'Jmarie]

so it's our fault that the people in india aren't as innovative as us? sure, let's make it cheaper for us to send jobs to india, then we don't have jobs and we don't have the money to buy anything. who cares if its cheaper, we still can't afford it because we don't have a job. its crazy that we're losing jobs to illegal immigrants AND to people in foreign countries. i do tech support over the phone and its always scary to think that any day our ceo might give our jobs to somebody in a foreign country. i agree that we need to train our employees better so that others might understand them easier, but don't train foreigners to have southern accents so that we can send them our jobs. if we force them to be more innovative then they will be, but its not our problem. and here we are just handing them our jobs when the jobless rate over here is still so high (and please don't ask me for a quote, this is common knowledge). i don't care if it would be cheaper, at least if we do it over here we're understandable and the amount of time you're on the phone is much less because you don't have to keep saying "what? can you repeat that? i'm sorry, i didn't understand you, can you say that one more time?" if you can't afford it because its too expensive, GET ANOTHER JOB.

rant over.