Any vegans out there?

[SandyM]

Sometimes I do really silly things. Like look at Thai web sites that describe eating bugs. Or watch TV programs showing lions eating wildebeasts. Things that I KNOW will bother me. I don't know why I do it. Just a quirk I have, I guess.

The subject of vegans and vegetarians has me mildly curious, and has for some time; so I did a search in Yahoo for the word "vegan". Several sites popped up, but one that caught my attention was something called "Mad Cowboy", about a guy who had been a Montana cattle rancher for over 30 years, and now was a dedicated vegan. Go figure.

I know there are several types of vegetarians - no read meat types, no meat or poultry types, no meat or seafood at all types, and then the strictest of all (as I understand it) - vegans - who eat nothing containing animal biproducts. Please, please correct me if I'm wrong in any of this.

I've said this many times before, but I believe I could implement it - I think I could become a vegetarian. I could do without poultry or red meat. I sometimes crave a grilled hamburger, but not to the extent that it's overwhelming.

I'm not sure if I could give up seafood.

And the list of things containing animal biproducts is sooooooo long, I really don't think I could become a vegan. I had no idea gelatin was on the list. And, of course, there's milk. Does soy milk, or rice milk, really compare to cow's milk? And for anyone who's a vegan, I can understand why you wouldn't eat meat, but what about milk?

This is just a topic that is really, really intriguing to me. I hope I haven't bored anyone.

I'd be interested in hearing your opinions.

[This message has been edited by SandyM (edited 03-23-2001).]

[makedah]

I'm not a vegetarian, but I want to clarify something. The only vegetarians are people who don't eat animals. Chickens and fish are animals, so someone who eats them is NOT a vegetarian. I have heard of a category called a "semi-vegetarian" but some vegetarians find this offensive/stupid. I guess they would say that's like being "a little bit pregnant" (as the cliche goes). As many vegetarians (on this board and elsewhere) will tell you, they are often offered chicken or fish for dinner when they tell people that they don't eat meat, or given food that is cooked in chicken broth (that happened to some friends of mine).

Some vegans don't drink milk because they believe that animals are harmed/abused in dairy farming. I have read that some vegans don't eat honey for similar reasons. Some vegans don't drink milk because they believe that it is unhealthy.

[funnybone]

I am not a vegetarian, although I can go with any meat for a long time. However, it would hard to cut out all animal products. We need eggs in certain desserts. I need cream in my coffee (no fake substitute will do). The occasional hamburger could be substituted with a veggie burger. I have had them before and they taste like the real thing.

As for the quotee "Some vegans don't drink milk because they believe that animals are harmed/abused in dairy farming", I have always thought that they were helping the animal. A cow full of milk looks so uncomfortable.

[SandyM]

Originally posted by funnybone:
As for the quotee "Some vegans don't drink milk because they believe that animals are harmed/abused in dairy farming", I have always thought that they were helping the animal. A cow full of milk looks so uncomfortable.


Can you even imagine.............

[emilycat]

I just wanted to add to what makedah said about vegetarian designations, so to speak.
While clarifying the differences between lacto-ovo vegetarians and lacto-vegetarians and pure vegetarians seems acceptible to me, I feel as though I'm "cheating" by calling myself one, since I do eat seafood, so I occasionally use the term pseudo-vegetarian. http://www.cookinglight.com/bbs/smile.gif

[LGBurns]

Some info on eating vegan: it is possible to eat well without eating animal products of any kind. It is not super easy because many product you would never think have animal products in them do (such as jello and many non-fat versions of full-fat products). The most important thing about eating vegan is to be extremely vigilant about making sure you're getting enough iron, B vitamins and protein. I have always heard that vegans should have nutritional yeast and Blackstrap molasses every day in order to insure they are getting enough iron and B vitamins.

If you are interested in reading more about vegetarianism, I suggest picking up a book called "Laurel's Kitchen" at your local library. It is the best book on vegetarian (and vegan) nutrition I have ever read, with lots of great recipes.

P.S. I don't know any vegetarians who are offended by people who say they are vegetarian but eat fish--some people are vegetarian for health reasons not ethical ones and therefore, aren't as strict in their vegetarianism. I do know, however, that it is very annoying to be handed a "vegetarian" menu that only has fish options.

Oh, and the reason vegans are opposed to the treatment of dairy animals is that they think their young should get to partake of their milk instead of us. Also, have you ever visited a commercial dairy farm? You may think twice about how much they are "helping" the animals.

[This message has been edited by LGBurns (edited 03-23-2001).]

[Ohioan]

LGBurns - I'm a vegetarian, and although I don't get "offended" when someone claims to be a "vegetarian who eats fish," I do get annoyed. It's not just that it's a misuse of a perfectly straightforward word ("vege," after all, means what it sounds like); it's also that it causes confusion even among people who'd like to accommodate vegetarians' food constraints. For example, if the only self-identified "vegetarian" you've ever met chows down on fish and shrimp all the time, the next time you have to cook for a genuine vegetarian, of course you'll serve fish without thinking or asking about it. As far as you know, vegetarians eat fish. (But, of course, they don't.) Your guest then sits there staring at the dead animal flesh on her plate, wondering what to do without gagging on the flesh or insulting the hostess by leaving it on the plate and/or saying, "but I told you I was a vegetarian..."

Many ethical vegetarians, however, do get offended when animal-eaters apply the term to themselves. These vegetaraians view the appropriation of the word as an appropriation of an ethical stance that the fish-eaters don't really maintain, i.e., "don't kill animals for food."

The most accepted -- and useful -- terms are "vegetarian" for those who don't kill animals for food (or eat animals that have died of natural causes), and "vegan" for those who don't eat any animal products, including eggs and dairy. Within those categories, there are some finer distinctions -- especially among vegans about whether any animal products are okay to use, even if the animal doesn't suffer in producing and relinquishing them, e.g., wool -- but no "pure" vegetarian or vegan would say an ovo-lacto-vegetarian (for example) isn't a vegetarian.

Does this help, or does it just muddy the waters some more?

Cheers,
Phoebe

[This message has been edited by Ohioan (edited 03-23-2001).]

[SandyM]

I'm learning, Phoebe - thanks. And I'm sure others are too. I really just wanted to know what the thought process was behind it. No right or wrong, just different. And different is good! http://www.cookinglight.com/bbs/biggrin.gif

[emilycat]

So does this mean my self-described pseudo-vegetarian term has been wounding all the veges out there?

[This message has been edited by emilycat (edited 03-23-2001).]

[makedah]

I'll vote for that, Ohioan/Phoebe!

I used the word "offended" because at a vegetarian bulletin board, I was talking about trying to transition into vegetarianism and called people who eat only a little meat "semi-vegetarians." Boy oh boy, I got told in no uncertain terms that vegetarians are not meat eaters. But "annoyed" is probably a better word to use here.

I'm no longer interested in becoming a vegetarian because my reasons were more health-related and I now feel that small portions of meat can be a part of my healthful diet. (But way less than the amount in the Standard American Diet, and don't even get me started ranting on the Atkins craze.) In the past, I wanted to become a vegetarian because of what it represented for me. It seemed like such an act of discipline and self-restraint, and I wanted to belong to the 'club,' so to speak. Come on, we live in a society now where some (NOT ALL) people who eat less or no red meat or no meat of any kind take a superior attitude toward big meat eaters. I wanted the moral high ground! But that's not a good reason to do anything. You have to do it because you believe in it or believe that the change is paramount for your well-being.

I say this to say that if you are interested in vegetarianism, weigh the reasons why and take baby steps. It can be very beneficial for your health and for the environment (not to mention the animals! http://www.cookinglight.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

[laughsandlaughs]

I don't know how much information you'd like to know about why people are vegans, why they don't believe in using dairy products, eggs, even wool, but all you have to do is go to PETA's website and they'll show you pretty quickly and in fairly graphic detail why. Once you see the pictures it is hard to ignore that animals do often suffer even when they aren't killed, in the cases of the dairy, egg and wool farms. It's pretty disturbing. http://www.cookinglight.com/bbs/frown.gif
www.peta.com (http://www.peta.com)

[m4star]

I was vegan for almost 6 years, prior to my diagnosis of diabeties (now I do eat dairy and fish in order to assist in the regulation my blood sugar levels.) And I completely agree with LBBurns, you can eat well as a vegan but you must eat wisely. If any of you would like more information on the factory farming of animals (even dairy cows) and being vegan (or just eating better) please visit theses sites: http://www.vegansociety.com/ http://www.vegan.org/ http://www.vegan.com/

With all the recent outbreaks of Mad Cow and Foot&Mouth disease, I strongly recommend that everyone educate themselves on the meat and dairy industry practices. It seems that now eating meat and animal products may not only be unhealthy but actually fatal.

[emilycat]

Phoebe, I know what psuedo means http://www.cookinglight.com/bbs/tongue.gif

Seriously, I was just wondering if associating myself at all with the word "vegetarian" was obnoxious, as well. Now I know!

[Ohioan]

Originally posted by emilycat:
So does this mean my self-described pseudo-vegetarian term has been wounding all the veges out there?

Oh, no, no, no! "Pseudo" is like "faux," i.e., a fancy-schmancy word for "fake"! http://www.cookinglight.com/bbs/biggrin.gif http://www.cookinglight.com/bbs/biggrin.gif I think the term is right on -- and shows you're inviting everyone to share the joke.

Speaking of "faux," does anyone ever say "ersatz" any more? (Okay, kiddies, how many words for "fake" can you find?) http://www.cookinglight.com/bbs/smile.gif

But to get serious for a brief moment, I myself think "occasional vege" or "almost vege" perfectly good terms -- but some veg*ans object to them, too. Oh, and veg*an is a term used for "vegetarians and vegans." Get it? The asterisk is a wild card symbol.

Oh, the things we go through to be linguistically correct.... http://www.cookinglight.com/bbs/wink.gif (I've obviously stopped being serious again.)

Cheers,
Phoebe

[hlao23]

I love to lurk (and occasionally post) on the message boards at www.vegsource.com (http://www.vegsource.com) Everything you ever wanted to know about veg*anism but were afraid to ask. I've confessed to being an omni (thought pseudo veg would apply to me)and people have been very open to me.

SandyM - soy and rice milk (and soy "ice cream") taste oatmeal-ly to me. I like drinking them sometimes but it's too sweet with cereal.

[laughsandlaughs]

I forgot to answer your question about soy milks. There are many different types of non-dairy milk...rice, soy, etc with many brands, styles, etc and they vary greatly. I like soymilk but still eat dairy products. I guess I hadn't had regular cow's milk in about 4 months and bought a half gallon of skim the other day and hated it!! I used to drink it all the time, but now...that sticky feeling you get it your mouth and the smell. Yuck!! So it's all what you get used to. You can use soy milks/creams in recipes and they turn out just fine, just make sure you use plain instead of vanilla flavored in non-dessert type recipes. We love Tofutti Cuties...these cute little soy ice cream sandwiches that I recently read are very popular with the Hollywood set...didn't know I was being so trendy. http://www.cookinglight.com/bbs/smile.gif

[funnybone]

I rarely watch Martha Stewart, but last night they had a whole show on soy foods and recipes.

[LGBurns]

Thanks Phoebe. I think you're right--Emily's use of the word psuedo (or faux or ersatz or how 'bout mock) vegetarian is safer.

Just as a funny side note--I used to live in a communal house that would have a vegetarian pot-luck every Tuesday night. You should have seen all the signage that went on at those pot-lucks. Things were marked "vegan," "has eggs," "lacto-ovo," "watch out it has flesh" (when someone would occasionally forget to tell people the potluck was vegetarian), "contains honey," etc. It was pretty funny--I actually suggested people should just put the recipe next to the food so everyone could be sure of what was in it. Of course that was really my way of trying to snag yummy recipes. http://www.cookinglight.com/bbs/biggrin.gif

[This message has been edited by LGBurns (edited 03-25-2001).]

[jjlmay]

How can a vegetarian wear real leather shoes? That is from a dead animal.

[kwormann]

I believe that vegetarians use leather becuase the animal was used for more than that purpose, but vegans dont use ANY animal product....is this correct Phoebe????

kim

[makedah]

Some vegetarians DON'T wear leather. On the other hand, like I said earlier, some people are vegetarians for health reasons, so leather wouldn't bother them.

[emilycat]

You know, I've thought about this quite a bit, and I'm sure it's a different sort of issue for everyone. I for one, don't eat meat (except for seafood http://www.cookinglight.com/bbs/smile.gif ) because it kind of grosses me out to eat something that's so akin to me (I'm not comparing myself to a duck, but eating meat/flesh just kind of icks me out. For some odd reason that I can't explain well, seafood just seems otherworldly and doesn't bother me much). However, my aversion to eating it doesn't have much to do with wearing it. I think if I thought about it long enough, I might begin to swear off all leather goods, too, but I may be too materialistic for that. Oddly enough, I've always been vehemently opposed to fur goods -- am I hypocritical or what? I feel a little guilty about my leather shoes and handbags sometimes, but it's one of those things I just choose to ignore. http://www.cookinglight.com/bbs/frown.gif

There are, however, plenty of vegetarians who don't eat or use animal products of any kind, so I hope some of the others on this board will offer their insight.

Emily

[Ohioan]

This really is turning out to be a fascinating thread -- and as donleyk has noted, a really civilized one, unlike some of the shouting matches I've encountered on veg*an boards. It's wonderful to see such genuine concern for each other here.

Emily, you're absolutely right about all the different reasons for people to be vegetarians -- and about the different lengths to which they take their vegetarianism. I think, though, that we shouldn't beat ourselves up about not going further than we do, but rather we all have to decide how far we can go or are willing to go to make a difference. So if someone says "I will not kill warm-blooded animals for food," that's still a plus. Adding cold-blooded animals is another plus. Avoiding factory-farmed eggs and dairy might be another plus. And so on.

As for the leather/fur issue, I'm not sure about this myself. In cold climates especially, the other options are limited (unlike food options, which are plentiful), and some of them raise environmental and/or health issues, i.e., about enregy consumption and additives in making synthetic materials.

I guess what it all boils down to is that for ethical vegetarians and even some aesthetic vegetarians (which I consider myself, and which emilycat seems to be, i.e., the "animalness" of meat just plain grosses us out), everyone has to think out his or her options, abilities, and tradeoffs. And we can all respect those whose goals and limits are different from ours.

Does any of this make sense? Or am I babbling worse than usual today? (No, don't answer that! http://www.cookinglight.com/bbs/smile.gif)

A little more seriously than usual,
Phoebe

[LGBurns]

I agree with Phoebe--it's all a matter of balancing various risks and concerns. I just wanted to add that I believe some people are anti-fur because many furs are from endangered or at least wild animals. I personally just think fur looks way too ostentatious for my tastes (of course I can't afford a fur coat so it makes it an easier choice for me). I definitely don't see a difference between wearing a mink coat (which is from a domesticated farmed animal) and leather. Also, just wanted to note that I doubt that the leather we wear comes from the same cows we eat, but I could be wrong (this is in response to the idea that leather is using the "whole" animal).