need pro-Democrat quip - ideas?

[hlao23]

Okay - maybe it's more of an anti-Bush quip...see what you think.

Bear with me...it's political even though it doesn't sound like it at first

I live a few houses up from a family who really does up their yard for Halloween: mad scientist, Dracula, coffins, skeletons, all kinds of stuff. In keeping with the spirit I thought I'd put something really scary in my yard...like a big picture of George W. and the caption "Four more years" :D I need to think of a way to make it clear to passers-by that it's intended to be scary though...hard to believe it, but for some people it might not be obvious. ;)

Whaddya think? Ideas?

[donnamp14]

I PM'd you!

[kirkbyky]

Do you intend it to be just scary or have a bit of tongue in cheek to it? I think you're on the right track--a pic of W super-imposed over flag draped coffins coming back from Iraq (I have an image if you want it) w/the '4 more years' comment would definitely get some attention and is quite scary.

I have several quotes, etc (a good cartoon to have is the most recent Tom Tomorrow one with W and administration quotes on it is a good one), I can do some digging if you'd like, but it won't be until a bit later in the afternoon.

Kyle

[kima]

Wow- you are a brave soul! From up here the election campaign looks pretty nasty and people are very divided. Are you worried about vandalism or flack from neighbours? (I do not mean to imply that Republicans would resort to vandalism- it just seems to me such a statement would make you a target by someone looking for trouble!!!).
Anyway good luck with your display!:)

[MKSquared]

I'd surround it with other traditionally scary things, just to be sure people got the idea. :D

Scary Things:
Spiders - Vampires - Mummies - Relected Bush - Zombies

What a fun idea. :D

[hlao23]

Hadn't actually thought much about repercussions (sp?) I only planned on displaying it for about 3 days - and I'd bring it in at night. Also I'm planning to make it a little humourous...I've actually made something up since this morning. I'd post it but I don't know how to display a word document here.

[Abby]

Originally posted by kirkbyky
Do you intend it to be just scary or have a bit of tongue in cheek to it? I think you're on the right track--a pic of W super-imposed over flag draped coffins coming back from Iraq (I have an image if you want it) w/the '4 more years' comment would definitely get some attention and is quite scary.

Kyle

Oh, yeah. That would be a great thing to put in the yard for Halloween and all of the young children to see. I think what's scary is the lack of respect for the president of the United States. Ya know, I really don't like Bill Clinton, but I had respect for him as the leader of our country when he was president, even though I didn't agree with MANY of the things he did in office.

[MiMo]

Originally posted by Abby


Oh, yeah. That would be a great thing to put in the yard for Halloween and all of the young children to see. I think what's scary is the lack of respect for the president of the United States. Ya know, I really don't like Bill Clinton, but I had respect for him as the leader of our country when he was president, even though I didn't agree with MANY of the things he did in office.

Ditto. I usually don't post on "political" threads (not that this really is one), but I think that is a really dumb idea. I don't think that the Presidency of the United States is meant to be mocked in somebody's front yard regardless of whether you agree with the President or not.

[bobmark226]

Originally posted by Abby
Oh, yeah. That would be a great thing to put in the yard for Halloween and all of the young children to see. I think what's scary is the lack of respect for the president of the United States.

http://politicalhumor.about.com/library/graphics/bush_halloween.jpg

[slknight]

Originally posted by bobmark226


http://politicalhumor.about.com/library/graphics/bush_halloween.jpg

<snort>

Note to self - don't drink soda while reading this board.:D

[hlao23]

Awesome picture. :D :D :D

2 responses to other posters:

1) Regarding scaring children...the flag-draped coffins would be less scary to them, I think, than what's in my neighbour's yard. I won't walk past that yard at night...some of the mannequins are on motion sensors. At any rate, I'm planning to be a bit more tongue-in-cheek.

2) Maybe I'm looking at this the wrong way, but I don't think I'm mocking the Presidency...I'm serious...it's a frightening thought to me that this administration hold power for another 4 years. I don't really see that this is much different that any other display of signage.


What I've come up with so far is writing:

Four more years ???!!!

Under which is displayed a picture of Bush and this picture (or something like it):

http://mypage.uniserve.ca/~thickets/scream.jpg

[Abby]

Originally posted by hlao23
Awesome picture. :D :D :D

2 responses to other posters:

1) Regarding scaring children...the flag-draped coffins would be less scary to them, I think, than what's in my neighbour's yard. I won't walk past that yard at night...some of the mannequins are on motion sensors. At any rate, I'm planning to be a bit more tongue-in-cheek.



I wasn't talking about scaring children, I was referencing to the utter lack of respect for the leader of our country and the example that it sets for the children. It's no wonder the youth of our country show no respect for positions of authority.

[tamawrite]

Originally posted by Abby


Oh, yeah. That would be a great thing to put in the yard for Halloween and all of the young children to see. I think what's scary is the lack of respect for the president of the United States. Ya know, I really don't like Bill Clinton, but I had respect for him as the leader of our country when he was president, even though I didn't agree with MANY of the things he did in office.

Ditto.

[bobmark226]

Originally posted by Abby
I wasn't talking about scaring children, I was referencing to the utter lack of respect for the leader of our country and the example that it sets for the children. It's no wonder the youth of our country show no respect for positions of authority.

These would be who, YOUR kids?

You're talking utter nonsense.

Bob, who loves generalizations

[hlao23]

Originally posted by Abby


I wasn't talking about scaring children, I was referencing to the utter lack of respect for the leader of our country and the example that it sets for the children. It's no wonder the youth of our country show no respect for positions of authority.

Hmmmm....I'll have to consider that aspect.

On the other hand it might prove to be fodder for discussion.

[SandyM]

Originally posted by Abby
I was referencing to the utter lack of respect for the leader of our country ......

I personally wouldn't consider it "utter lack of respect" - to me, it's a free expression of opinion.

And yes, I'd feel the same way (and respond as such) if this had been about Kerry.

[tamawrite]

Originally posted by bobmark226


These would be who, YOUR kids?

You're talking utter nonsense.

Bob

LOL If you haven't seen our country's kids flouting authority in increasing numbers, you haven't been looking. Are there still good, respectful kids out there? Absolutely. Let's support them rather than demonstrating disrespect.

[slknight]

Originally posted by SandyM


I personally wouldn't consider it "utter lack of respect" - to me, it's a free expression of opinion.

And yes, I'd feel the same way (and respond as such) if this had been about Kerry.

Absolutely. And I for one, am glad that I live in a country where I could put up such a display if I wanted to.

[muriel3002]

Originally posted by Abby


Oh, yeah. That would be a great thing to put in the yard for Halloween and all of the young children to see. I think what's scary is the lack of respect for the president of the United States. Ya know, I really don't like Bill Clinton, but I had respect for him as the leader of our country when he was president, even though I didn't agree with MANY of the things he did in office.

Ditto....

and the many things he did in the office.

[bobmark226]

Respect is something that's earned and has to be kept. It's not something that automatically goes with being elected to public office.

Bob

[Wendy w]

Originally posted by bobmark226
Respect is something that's earned and has to be kept. It's not something that automatically goes with being elected to public office.

Bob


Amen!!

[charliecat]

I agree that it's very disrepectful and wrong. Being that you don't like what the president has done over the last 4 years, you feel it's okay, acceptable, funny, to do this??? So, if a teenager,let's say it's your teenager.. who can't stand one of his teachers, decides to do the same thing, display his teachers face in very disrepectful fashion in the front yard...would that be okay?...would you let your child do that??? I wonder???? What are we teaching our children? Everyone has a right their opinion, but how they say it, display it or act on it, should be done respectfully. If you want people to know how you feel...put a Kerry/Edwards sign in your yard...volunteer for his campaign, or show it in the voting booth....just don't display it in your front yard.

[charliecat]

For clarity...last sentence should be... don't put out the halloween diplay in your front yard!

[gertdog]

It's your yard, it's private property, it's your opinion- you are free to display what you like. In terms of setting an example- you're expressing freedom of speech and and interest in the political process. I have far greater concerns about other influences on youth behavior than that! I see little difference between what you are proposing and what political cartoonists and late-night comedians do. Criticism and humor are both part of a healthy political atmosphere.

I personally wouldn't have a problem with seeing a display in a yard that plays on the "scariness" of Halloween by suggesting that electing a particular candidate is also scary. It need not be "disrespectful" or tasteless- it's an expression of an opinion, and I don't think it's an overstatement to say that some people really do find the prospect of re-electing Bush scary. (Ditto some peoples' feelings about Kerry, of course!).

I'll be interested to hear what you decide on!

[badunnin]

But this is one of the great things about our country. If I don't like the president, or the job that he is doing, or what he represents, I have every right to express my dismay in any one of a number of ways, including putting up a satirical Halloween display. I hold great respect for the OFFICE of the president. However, as Bob stated, respect is earned, it is not something I own anyone, and if I feel that the president (or anyone else) hasn't earned my respect, or has lost it, I can express that.

[donnamp14]

I am amazed that people seem to take politics so personally ! Insult my candidate, insult me ! Why are people so contentious when discussing this election?....

That's why I PM'd my reply. I didn't want people to think I was insulting them because I have a certain political leaning. And I have a sense of humor.

OK. I'm out of the closet. Don't hate be because I'm liberal.... ;)

-Donna

[slknight]

Originally posted by donnamp14
have a certain political leaning. And I have a sense of humor.

OK. I'm out of the closet. Don't hate be because I'm liberal.... ;)



That's because you live in Massachusetts. ;) :p

[bobmark226]

Shall we shut down "The Daily Show" and "Saturday Night Live" while we're at it? Censor all the political cartoonists, a tradition this country is rich in?

Do your children live in some sort of vacuum?

No humorous or acerbic commentary allowed, it's a grand old flag and you better **** well love it!

Bob

[leebee]

Personally, I do think the flag-draped coffins would go a bit far for a "tongue-in-cheek" display, but I would defend the right to do it. For my own taste, a large picture of the smirky Bush & the dour Cheney along w/ a caption like "The Truth is Scarier than Fiction" would be cute. Or a computer-generated image of Bush in place in a Frankenstein movie scene--again, in the vein of "True Horror Stories." People will hate it. People will love it. Some people won't know who he is. But you have every right to make the statement if you want to!

As far as the respect issue--There are people who deserve a certain amount of respect just for who they are or their station in life. I was taught to respect everyone I encountered, and especially those in authority or my elders. Now, that being said, an individual can increase or decrease that sort of "natural" respect that I feel I owe them. I have enormous respect for the office of the President. But Bush is rapidly eroding any that I have for him. If I encountered him and spoke to him, I would most likely be polite and address him as "Mr. President," but I have very little respect for him personally. And, incidentally, I think it's inappropriate for politicians to be disrespectful to other politicians--Cheney's obscenity on the Senate floor & Jeb Bush recently referring to President Carter as "this guy" in very disparaging tones sets my teeth on edge. But criticism is not in & of itself disrespectful.

[slknight]

Originally posted by badunnin
But this is one of the great things about our country. If I don't like the president, or the job that he is doing, or what he represents, I have every right to express my dismay in any one of a number of ways, including putting up a satirical Halloween display. I hold great respect for the OFFICE of the president. However, as Bob stated, respect is earned, it is not something I own anyone, and if I feel that the president (or anyone else) hasn't earned my respect, or has lost it, I can express that.

Exactly. I honestly can't figure out why so many people are upset about this. It's satire, people. And I would find it equally amusing regardless of whose picture it is.

[syzygy]

Originally posted by charliecat
So, if a teenager,let's say it's your teenager.. who can't stand one of his teachers, decides to do the same thing, display his teachers face in very disrepectful fashion in the front yard...would that be okay?...would you let your child do that???
No, I would not let my child do that, because a teacher is different than a politician, who is an elected official(well, usually ;) )who is answerable to the public. And as such, they (politicians) become fair game for public opinion on how they are or are not doing their jobs. We may differ on how well they are or are not performing, but thank goodness we live in a land where we are still free to display our personal feeling about that performance and whether or not they deserve to continue in their jobs.

[HejazSunKat]

Originally posted by Abby
I think what's scary is the lack of respect for the president of the United States.

What's scary is the lack of a sense of humor on the Republican side. I'll be voting Democrat this election but I had a wonderful chuckle at John Kerry in a clean suit looking like an overgrown Easter bunny. Politicians are not sacred cows we are supposed to kow tow to. Sticks and stones may break some bones but names will never hurt you. Oh and there is the small matter of respect having to be earned.


Originally posted by MiMo
I don't think that the Presidency of the United States is meant to be mocked in somebody's front yard regardless of whether you agree with the President or not.

This country has a long, long tradition of political humor or maybe you don't read the op-ed pages of your local newspaper or watch Leno, Letterman, O'Brien or The Daily Show?

Oh boy...I really need to read the threads before I dive in...Bob just made all these points...(I knew there was a reason I liked you! :D)

[Grace]

Why aren't teachers answerable to the public? It's our tax dollars that pay them, just like any politician. And they have a responsibility to the general public (in that they are responsible for teaching children who will be the future of the country). Teachers are no different. They are hired by the government (usually, unless it's a private school), and parents and students can differ on how well they are or are not performing. I agree that making things personal and mocking people because you don't like them is in poor taste. I don't think it's the same as a TV satire show which makes fun of everything and everyone.

I think it's classless and in poor taste (no matter which side you mock or disparage), but I do believe that everyone has the right to do it. No argument there. I don't think anyone's asking anyone to be "shut down" or censored (unlike the 10 commandments? Hurry!! Get those things down off the wall! Remove them from public view!! They're OFFENSIVE!!! :rolleyes: ).

And I do believe that teaching kids (or anyone) to mock or participating in any kind of behavior that mocks people is not the right thing. It's not who I would like to be, that's all I know. And I absolutely think that there are classier, less nasty ways to voice one's dissent/disapproval.

Editing to add that humor is a very personal thing. What one person might think of as hysterical, another wouldn't find funny at all. There are guys at my office that tell the most horrible, off-color jokes ever. I'm no prude (by no stretch am I a prude!), but these jokes are outright disgusting, and I am turned off big-time when they start telling them. I have to leave the area completely. And truthfully, my opinion of those guys changes quite a bit. I know that my own sense of humor is looked at with disgust by my own sister. So just because you don't think it's offensive, doesn't mean no one does, and it doesn't matter if you think it "shouldn't" be offensive. I don't think people should be offended by some dirty jokes, but they are. Doesn't mean I'm right and they're wrong, or vice-versa. So just keep in mind that you do risk offending people, and people you might like, too (which of course, I agree 100%, is your absolute right to do)!

[HejazSunKat]

Originally posted by slknight
That's because you live in Massachusetts. ;) :p

*snort*

[kima]

Are you sitting down Grace????


I totally agree with you!:eek: :p

[Grace]

I knew we'd find something to agree on, Maureen! :D :D XXOO

[Grace]

Originally posted by donnamp14
I am amazed that people seem to take politics so personally ! Insult my candidate, insult me ! -Donna

Because what you are saying when you insult the candidate (it is assumed), is that you are insulting what that candidate believes. Since other people who are voting for that candidate believe the same thing, they then get offended.

I don't see it as any different than disparaging any other group (blacks, gays, jews, fill in the blank). No one is any one thing. In other words, a person can be black, gay, a jew AND a Republican all at the same time (I'd like to meet such a person! :D ), but should that person not be offended at disparaging remarks about blacks? Or Gays? or Jews? Then why not Republicans too? If I hate the Pope and say terrible things about him (I don't and I wouldn't), should Catholics not be upset about something like that?

Your line of thinking doesn't make sense to me.

And I get tired of nastiness being passed off as "satire". Real satire isn't motivated by hatred. Shows that do satire satirize everyone - they make fun of both candidates, all public personalities, not just ones they hate/dislike/disagree with politically/religiously etc.

For example, there was that one "This Land is Your Land" song/cartoon video that made fun of both Kerry and Bush. I personally thought it was hysterical, as did most everyone I know that saw it. It didn't come off as a hate piece directed at either man. It was just poking good fun at some of the perceptions of both men.

[donnamp14]

Grace- Thank you for telling me what I am thinking! Whew!

-Donna

[Grace]

I didn't tell you what YOU were thinking, I was telling you what I think. Perhaps you didn't understand my post. Your post indicated that you didn't understand why people take insults to their candidate personally. I attempted to explain why some people do. I don't see anything in my post that insinuates I know what you are thinking.

Maybe you're misunderstanding the first line of my post.

Because what you are saying when you insult the candidate (it is assumed), is that you are insulting what that candidate believes. Since other people who are voting for that candidate believe the same thing, they then get offended.

The "you" in that paragraph doesn't mean you, Donna. It means the imperical "you". I should have written it better. I should have written:

"Because what one is saying when one insults the candidate (it is assumed), is that one is insulting what that candidate believes. Since other people who are voting for that candidate believe the same thing, they then get offended."

Perhaps that clarifies things....

[syzygy]

Originally posted by Grace
Why aren't teachers answerable to the public? It's our tax dollars that pay them, just like any politician. And they have a responsibility to the general public (in that they are responsible for teaching children who will be the future of the country). Teachers are no different. They are hired by the government (usually, unless it's a private school), and parents and students can differ on how well they are or are not performing.
Teachers are NOT politicians. They are HIRED by a school district, (not the general government) with a contract to that district. They are not ELECTED by the general populace, so therefore, even though our tax dollars may pay their salaries, they are answerable to the district. Their responsibility is to educate their students, not necessarily the general public. It's a different animal.

[Grace]

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on that one. Just because a teacher is answerable only to a district, doesn't mean (to me) that they are not like politicians. My ward alderman here in Chicago is only answerable to this district, but he's still a politician paid by my tax dollars. And just because the "hiring process" is different, I still view politicians as being "hired". We look at their qualifications to do the job, and all of us get a say in who we "hire" to run our government.

And a teacher's responsibility IS to educate students, not the general public, but the job they do (again, IMO), has an impact on "the general public". Those kids ARE the general public, and will be the general public who will be working (or not, if they're not well-educated), being the future politicians who make future policies, etc., etc.

So again, I see it differently, but can agree to disagree.

[RunnerKim]

There is a legal distinction between politicians and school teachers. Maybe a lawyer can help clarify but it's my understanding that public figures have different rights/protection in regards to defamation, libel etc.

There's a lot about Halloween that many people find offensive or in just poor taste. I personally don't think a negative political display is worse than dead bodies.

Kim

[Jen]

I will probably regret jumping in here...

I think kima and many of our other Canadian posters may agree that Canadians are watching this election with more interest than usual (especially since polls have shown that support for Bush is virtually nonexistent in Canada: see Macleans (http://www.macleans.ca/topstories/politics/article.jsp?content=20040209_74911_74911) and The Globe and Mail (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20041003.wpoll1003/BNStory/Front)). And as kima said above, it does seem nastier than usual. I think many Canadians find it strange that the US President is put on such a pedestal. Although we do have respect for our politicians in Canada (sometimes this is more difficult than other times :p ), we recognize that they are only human and no better than the rest of us. Our national politicians, even our Prime Minister, regularly appear on comedy shows such as This Hour Has 22 Minutes or Royal Canadian Air Farce, making light of themselves. It doesn't mean we don't respect them - but we don't take them or ourselves quite as seriously. People here also don't tend to identify themselves so strongly with a particular party, so we don't get as insulted or hurt when "our" candidate is criticised. (This may be partly due to the fact that party lines are much more blurred here...for example, the governing "Liberal" party in my province is actually very fiscally and socially conservative).

I just find it fascinating that in a country that prides itself on free speech, an argument about whether it's appropriate to mount a political protest on private property even takes place. It's something that I don't think would even be up for discussion in Canada...most any form of protest is considered appropriate. And I find it somewhat ironic that people are concerned about the dignity of protests by individuals, when the mud-slinging going on in the "official" campaigns is so lacking in dignity (on both sides).

[jmarie]

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20041007/capt.nr10110072046.edwards_nj_nr101.jpg

[charliecat]

This isn't about politics...at least to me...I wasn't the least bit offended because someone doesn't like George Bush, in fact, I'm still on the fence as to who is getting my vote. I just feel there are better ways of expressing your opinion...regardless of the situation. I made the comparison to the teacher because I wanted to question where do we draw the line? When is it okay? And what happens if everybody's "lines" are different. Which obviously they are by reading the responses. Yes, we all have the same rights, and I feel very fortunate to have those rights. I just feel they come along with responsibilities, and there's a right and wrong way to exercise them. But, that's just my opinion.

[kima]

Wow- finally another Canuck jumps into the US political scene!!!:D :D

It is interesting what you say about how we treat politicians up here.Yes I really don't think we stake our political alliance on worshiping the leader. It is just not as polarized up here for sure. But one other difference is that we never delve into the personal lives of our politicians. No nasty rumours about affairs etc. Even now when the media has acess to everything personal about a candidiate we never hear about it.

Maybe it's because our leaders just aren't that sexy??? (Jean Chretien is a prime example)
Sorry for the diversion- I just so rarely hear from a country woman!

Nice picture Joyce!:D Bet I could find an even scarier one of our last PM!;)

[kirkbyky]

I would like to address some of the earlier comments in reference to my original comment.

I certainly don't think that W backed by flag draped coffins is satire. I believe I was quite clear when I said that would be scary. This was asked to determine if hlao was going for 'scary political', as I doubt any political candidate is going to come after any of us with a butcher knife ala 'slasher film scary', or in a more satirical vein.

What I don't understand is how that image can be deemed disrespectful, and more importantly (to me, anyway) why are the President's feelings/image of greater concern than that image of 1000+ soldiers who died in combat under his direction.

JMarie: LOL!!:D That picture is hilarous! Thanks for the chuckle.

Kyle

[SandyM]

http://www.lies.com/wp-images/dubya.gif

[Kayaksoup]

Originally posted by Abby


I wasn't talking about scaring children, I was referencing to the utter lack of respect for the leader of our country and the example that it sets for the children. It's no wonder the youth of our country show no respect for positions of authority.

I was brought up seeing satire and fun made of our politicians and you better believe that I am a well adjusted person who never got into trouble as a teenager. This is a gross generalisation.
I did learn that it is not ok to follow the leader blindly, disagreement is good. If it is considered disrespectful to question the leaders decisions, or to disagree with them, than I am very frightened.
1984, anyone....

[Kayaksoup]

Originally posted by kima
Maybe it's because our leaders just aren't that sexy??? (Jean Chretien is a prime example)


How can you say that!!! He is so hot !!!

http://rulingcatsanddogs.com/canadian_beauts/contents/comedy/pics/large-files/Jean-Chretien-funny-fake.jpg

[kima]

OMG Linda!!!! Good one!

All I can say is that since I hate just about every picture ever taken of me I will now officially announce to never run for public office!:) I'd rather have a root canal with no freezing anyway. :)

[Jen]

And then there's this classic shot - what a sexy tough man!!

http://www.freddie.ca/images/chretien-strangle.jpeg

And off-topic, but I always loved this one:

http://www.frymybacon.com/articles/images/article_0192_01.jpg
Text reads:
British Primer Minister John Major (left), Chinese President Jiang Zemin (second from the left) and U.S. President Bill Clinton (second from right) watch a parade of veterans and troops in Moscow's Red Square Tuesday as commemoration to mark the 50th anniversary of the World War II victory continued. Man at right is unidentified.
:D

[/thread hijack]

[ClaraB]

Originally posted by Kayaksoup


How can you say that!!! He is so hot !!!

http://rulingcatsanddogs.com/canadian_beauts/contents/comedy/pics/large-files/Jean-Chretien-funny-fake.jpg OMG, he really does look like Keith Richards!! Scary!!!

I think the thing that upsets many people about the Bush/coffin concept is that Bush did NOT kill those soldiers - Iraqi insurgents (basically, terrorists) did. Why aren't they taking the blame?

[HejazSunKat]

Originally posted by Jen
as kima said above, it does seem nastier than usual. I think many Canadians find it strange that the US President is put on such a pedestal.

we don't get as insulted or hurt when "our" candidate is criticised.

I just find it fascinating that in a country that prides itself on free speech, an argument about whether it's appropriate to mount a political protest on private property even takes place. It's something that I don't think would even be up for discussion in Canada...most any form of protest is considered appropriate.

You're absolutely right, it IS much nastier than usual and people took sides in this election WAY earlier than usual too. Usually people ignore it all until after Labor Day but it's been contentious and ugly the entire campaign and we're all looking forward to November 3rd so it's over with - no matter who ends up winning. Someone smarter than me could explain what combination of factors created the situation but most of us are pretty weary of the partisan bickering. What I'd like to point out is this idol worship of current president George Bush is a republican phenomenon. I'm voting Kerry/Edwards this election and I found the picture Joyce posted of John Edwards very funny. He does have a very weird face and sometimes a very weird and funny demeanor. I love calling him 'The Breck Girl', the name some of his senate colleagues dreamed up. I have no problem whatsoever with unflattering images being posted of the candidates I'm planning to vote for. If they say or do something stupid then d@mn straight they should be skewered for it! I'd be the first one in line to
take a pot shot.

As for your final comment, I know - criticizing people for not holding or expressing the popular view has been a very PC thing to do since 9/11. If you criticize the current President's policies that in some minds means you are being a disloyal American. I for one sure hope that blows over real soon because you're right - in a country that prides itself on free expression it's ridiculous for us to be turning on our fellow citizens because they think differently than the majority.

[hlao23]

Originally posted by HejazSunKat
...and I found the picture Joyce posted of John Edwards very funny. He does have a very weird face and sometimes a very weird and funny demeanor. I love calling him 'The Breck Girl', the name some of his senate colleagues dreamed up. I have no problem whatsoever with unflattering images being posted of the candidates I'm planning to vote for.

Haven't heard the"Breck Girl" thing. The picture Joyce posted is just begging to have horns drawn on it I think.

I get in trouble sometimes b/c there is very little that I can't find the humor in...I'm quick to make fun of myself but I sometimes rope others into it who aren't used to me yet.

FWIW - I think not showing respect begins and ends at home. If things show up that are seen as disrespectful - as I said before - it's fodder for conversation and a lesson. I still don't see the disrespect in my idea (except maybe that I'm putting it up for Halloween - is that it?)

[bobmark226]

hlao23, I'm volunteering myself for your Halloween display. Give me an address and I'll be there with my Barbara Bush wig and a sandwich board that reads "a beautiful mind"!

Bob

[HejazSunKat]

Originally posted by hlao23
I get in trouble sometimes b/c there is very little that I can't find the humor in...

Uh huh...are you Irish by any chance? :D And before everybody jumps on me for a 'racial slur' my ancestors hailed from county Cork and I'm married to an Irish American. In my family too just about everything is fair game for a joke and I think knowing that someone may point out your foibles or tell you if you're being pompous and full of yourself (or just plain wrong) keeps everyone honest - especially politicians.

[hlao23]

Originally posted by HejazSunKat


Uh huh...are you Irish by any chance? :D And before everybody jumps on me for a 'racial slur' my ancestors hailed from county Cork and I'm married to an Irish American. In my family too just about everything is fair game for a joke and I think knowing that someone may point out your foibles or tell you if you're being pompous and full of yourself (or just plain wrong) keeps everyone honest - especially politicians.

3/4 Irish...how interesting!

Funny...my married name is very obviously Irish - DH is about 1/2 Irish - my family and I freak him out though...

[Grace]

Boy, who said anything about not being able to criticize or poke fun at anyone? It IS America, and we DO pride ourselves on being able to say whatever we want.

I find it funny that everyone says "this election is much nastier than usual - I can't wait until it's over", but then turns right around and contributes to that nastiness they claim to hate by adding more nastiness.

My problem (and then I'm going to be done with this discussion) is when the "jokes" come from a place of HATE.

REAL satire, IMO, comes not from hate but from some kind of affection. For example, lots of people do Julia Child imitations (because her style is unique and funny), and Julia loved such imitations of herself.

I think Bush is quite self-depracating, and laughs at himself quite readily (and I laugh too, sometimes). But it's the stuff disguised as "satire and parody" that is really meant to hurt and demean and comes from a place of hate that I have a problem with.

And lastly, I don't think it has anything to do with being a "Republican". I have said many times that while I am registered Republican, I'm not a die-hard. I voted for Perot twice (meaning, I did not vote for Bush the elder who ran on the Republican ticket one of those elections).

I don't see things being done "all in good fun". I see it being done with malice and with intent to demean. There's a BIG difference in my eyes. That's all.

Here is a link to something I consider funny:

http://atomfilms.shockwave.com/contentPlay/shockwave.jsp?id=goodtobeindc&preplay=1&ratingBar=off

[bobmark226]

Originally posted by Grace
REAL satire, IMO, comes not from hate but from some kind of affection.

Lovely that you've made your own definition, no matter how inaccurate. I'll stick to Merriam-Webster.

Main Entry: sat·ire
Pronunciation: 'sa-"tIr
Function: noun

1 : a literary work holding up human vices and follies to ridicule or scorn
2 : trenchant wit, irony, or sarcasm used to expose and discredit vice or folly

Bob

[Grace]

I guess you didn't read the IMO part of that sentence :rolleyes: .

[bobmark226]

Originally posted by Grace
I guess you didn't read the IMO part of that sentence :rolleyes: .

Ok, then your opinion is wrong.

Do you redefine everything? If I call myself a woman, does that make it so?

Bob

[gertdog]

Originally posted by bobmark226


Lovely that you've made your own definition, no matter how inaccurate. I'll stick to Merriam-Webster.

Main Entry: sat·ire
Pronunciation: 'sa-"tIr
Function: noun

1 : a literary work holding up human vices and follies to ridicule or scorn
2 : trenchant wit, irony, or sarcasm used to expose and discredit vice or folly

Bob

Hmm, also nothing in there about it being "satire" if you give equal time to opposing views, but "mockery" if you don't.

[bobmark226]

Originally posted by gertdog


Hmm, also nothing in there about it being "satire" if you give equal time to opposing views, but "mockery" if you don't.

Huh? I don't understand. I'm still having trouble wrapping my mind around Grace's redefining things to suit herself.

Bob

[Grace]

I have obviously not communicated my point very clearly. Certainly any kind of nasty, mean, demeaning, hateful "joke" (for lack of a better term) would fit the dictionary definitions of parody and satire.

My point (and again, why I said IMO - and opinions aren't right or wrong, they're just opinions - is that what I consider GOOD satire or GOOD parody - the stuff that's truly funny IMO, is the stuff that isn't nasty and demeaning.

And one last time, I will reiterate, that I am in no way saying that I think anything should be illegal, or not allowed to be said/shown/displayed/whatever. But just because something's not illegal doesn't mean it SHOULD be said.

I see that I am in the minority here, but that's ok. I'm not a lemming who's looking to be just like everyone else. I'm happy to be alone in my views if that's how it is!

[gertdog]

Originally posted by Grace

And I get tired of nastiness being passed off as "satire". Real satire isn't motivated by hatred. Shows that do satire satirize everyone - they make fun of both candidates, all public personalities, not just ones they hate/dislike/disagree with politically/religiously etc.


Sorry, I was referring to this quote from an earlier post. Should have been more clear.

I really don't see how Hlao23's halloween yard decoration is suddenly coming from a place of "hate." She doesn't care for the president. She wants him to lose the election. She wants to express that opinion through the use of satire by showing the president's image alongside other "scary" images. I completely fail to see how this is motivated by the kind of hatred Grace refers to. I respect her opinion that this method of expression is classless and in poor taste although I completely disagree, but I'm really stumped by the leap to hatred.

[HejazSunKat]

Originally posted by Grace
Real satire isn't motivated by hatred. Shows that do satire satirize everyone - they make fun of both candidates, all public personalities, not just ones they hate/dislike/disagree with politically/religiously etc.

I too think that 'hatred' is a pretty strong word to apply to what we've been discussing here. Hatred is what the Israelis and the Palestinians have for each other. In most cases I wouldn't say Republicans and Democrats have anywhere near that level of distaste for one another.

[kima]

I do find it sad that some of the people here who decry the nastiness of the current campaign are indeed particiapting in nastiness themselves.
While it's obvious I fall very much on what you call the "liberal" side of things I find it is the liberals here that are showing intolerance. I know that you don't agree with the opinions of someone like Grace but for heaven sakes read her posts with an open heart and mind. She makes good points and always says these are her [b]opinions[/b.
I don't even live in the States and I can't wait for this election to be over.:rolleyes: :(

[hlao23]

Thanks guys...I, too, think hate is not the right word. I just disagree with a lot of what he says and does.

Bob - I pm'd you.

[bobmark226]

Originally posted by kima
I do find it sad that some of the people here who decry the nastiness of the current campaign are indeed particiapting in nastiness themselves.
While it's obvious I fall very much on what you call the "liberal" side of things I find it is the liberals here that are showing intolerance. I know that you don't agree with the opinions of someone like Grace but for heaven sakes read her posts with an open heart and mind. She makes good points and always says these are her [b]opinions

Why am I not surprised to see this?

Being I never decry the nastiness, I know you're not talking to me, but....

When someone sticks a feather in her cap and calls it macaroni, it isn't Yankee Doodle, it's The World According to Grace, and maybe YOU need to remember that she's sometimes wrong, as we all are from time to time, friendship notwithstanding.

Bob

[aggie94]

Originally posted by kima
While it's obvious I fall very much on what you call the "liberal" side of things I find it is the liberals here that are showing intolerance.

That's interesting, because IMO, it's the people who don't support freedom of expression just because it contradicts their own personal beliefs that are intolerant.

Edited to add the following quote from the speech that President Shepherd gave in "An American President," which I loved:

Everybody knows America isn't easy. America is advanced citizenship. You gotta want it bad, 'cause it's gonna put up a fight. It's gonna say, "You want free speech? Let's see you acknowledge a man whose words make your blood boil, who's standing center stage and advocating, at the top of his lungs, that which you would spend a lifetime opposing at the top of yours. You want to claim this land as the land of the free, then the symbol of your country can't just be a flag; the symbol also has to be one of its citizens exercising his right to burn that flag in protest." Show me that, defend that, celebrate that in your classrooms. Then you can stand up and sing about the land of the free.

[gertdog]

Originally posted by kima
I do find it sad that some of the people here who decry the nastiness of the current campaign are indeed particiapting in nastiness themselves.
While it's obvious I fall very much on what you call the "liberal" side of things I find it is the liberals here that are showing intolerance. I know that you don't agree with the opinions of someone like Grace but for heaven sakes read her posts with an open heart and mind. She makes good points and always says these are her [b]opinions[/b.
I don't even live in the States and I can't wait for this election to be over.:rolleyes: :(

Maureen, I have a lot of respect for your opinion but I genuinely don't see where nastiness has come into this discussion. Grace has expressed a strong opinion and she's gotten strong responses. Of course I read them with an open mind but I still completely disagree with her points. I certainly respect her right to her own ideas, but the lemming in me isn't willing to say nothing just because my disagreement might ruffle a few feathers. And of course you and I can agree to disagree about nastiness, too! :)

[bobmark226]

Originally posted by aggie94
Everybody knows America isn't easy. America is advanced citizenship. You gotta want it bad, 'cause it's gonna put up a fight. It's gonna say, "You want free speech? Let's see you acknowledge a man whose words make your blood boil, who's standing center stage and advocating, at the top of his lungs, that which you would spend a lifetime opposing at the top of yours. You want to claim this land as the land of the free, then the symbol of your country can't just be a flag; the symbol also has to be one of its citizens exercising his right to burn that flag in protest." Show me that, defend that, celebrate that in your classrooms. Then you can stand up and sing about the land of the free.

Very good, Aggie, and thanks.

One funny bit of synchonicity about all this...This was the last place I posted in before heading out the door yesterday. I got to Union Square Park a block over and there was a large rack of tee-shirts, very simple, with just printed slogans. I walked closer and saw that they were anarchists and some of the sayings were quite funny as well as vituperative. I turned to continue on, went a few steps, and came to a young black men with a tee shirt with only the word "respect" emblazoned on it.

Bob

[Grace]

Originally posted by aggie94


That's interesting, because IMO, it's the people who don't support freedom of expression just because it contradicts their own personal beliefs that are intolerant.

[/I]

Eva, I assume you were directing this at me? Maybe I'm wrong, and I don't want to put words in your mouth. So correct me if I'm wrong. But I have said repeatedly in my posts that I do not wish or think it's right to make putting up displays I don't like illegal in any way shape or form! I DO support the right for anyone to say anything they like!

My point was to explain WHY some people don't like it. It's NOT that I don't think people shouldn't be able to say things I (or anyone else) don't like. I'm saying that it could be construed by some as offensive. Offensive to people who are their friends, neighbors, whatever. So people just need to be careful about HOW they present their ideas. That's all. And if one doesn't care about offending people they like, well then, of course, by all means, go right ahead! I wouldn't go on that person's property and remove or vandalize any kind of display I didn't like. And I'm not intolerant of the viewpoint. I just don't think it's NECESSARY to express one's viewpoint in a mean-spirited way. Why is this so hard for people to grasp?

How about I put up a picture of gay people getting married and and put scary signs and slogans next to it? I would be labelled INSTANTLY as intolerant of gay people. Not agreeing with the idea of gay marriage or civil unions or whatever is one thing. Mocking or portraying gay people as scary and evil is another. Maybe THAT will clear up my viewpoint.

[kima]

Well [I [/b] felt there was a nasty tone in some of the repsonses to Grace and other Republicans.Perhaps I am wrong- if you all feel there was no nastiness then perhaps you are right-it's all in the eyes of the beholder.

Bob- I don't know where that comment comes from. I often disagree with Grace and am never afraid to say so.My comments about nastiness would have been my feelings no matter who it was. What bugged me is that Grace kept saying it was her opinion and then people insinuated she was changing definitons to suit her own need. Well "satire" is definately a subjective thing. She said that many times.
Okay I will bow of this thread now. You all have good points and I appreciate hearing from you.

[bobmark226]

Originally posted by kima
Well "satire" is definately a subjective thing. She said that many times...
Okay I will bow of this thread now.

No, it's not, anymore than a dish of pad thai is a pizza...and good idea.

Bob

[gertdog]

Originally posted by Grace

How about I put up a picture of gay people getting married and and put scary signs and slogans next to it? I would be labelled INSTANTLY as intolerant of gay people. Not agreeing with the idea of gay marriage or civil unions or whatever is one thing. Mocking or portraying gay people as scary and evil is another. Maybe THAT will clear up my viewpoint.

It's not even close to the same thing. You're still trying to claim that expressing dislike of Bush is hateful or intolerant, and it isn't.

You know, there is no way for us to know now, but if hlao23 had posted this thread simply saying she wanted to do a "scary" Halloween display involving a politician, without naming names or parties, I'd bet a HUGE chunk of money that this discussion wouldn't be taking place. JMHO.

Edited to change "ain't" to "isn't"- I thought to myself "It ain't the same thing!" but meant to type the word "isn't." :o

[aggie94]

Originally posted by Grace
Eva, I assume you were directing this at me? Maybe I'm wrong, and I don't want to put words in your mouth. So correct me if I'm wrong. But I have said repeatedly in my posts that I do not wish or think it's right to make putting up displays I don't like illegal in any way shape or form! I DO support the right for anyone to say anything they like!

No, not at all. I did see your comments that you support people's rights to express their political beliefs in this manner. My comment was not directed to anyone in particular, but it was a general statement about intolerance in response to Maureen's generalization that "liberals" on this thread are being "intolerant" for challenging other people's posts.

[Grace]

Why isn't it the same thing? Disagreeing with POLICIES, which is what I assume the reason hlao23 doesn't want Bush re-elected, but portraying him as evil and scary IS the same thing to me. Disliking Bush is 100% fine to me (it's not hateful or intolerant). Not wanting him to be re-elected is 100% fine to me (it's not hateful or intolerant). I completely respect that person's feelings, wishes, beliefs and opinions. But portraying people as evil and scary is NOT fine to me. That is hateful in my viewpoint.

I find it funny that most Bush supporters spend their time talking about what they like about Bush, which policies of his they support and why, and most Kerry supporters spend their time talking about what they hate about Bush so much and what policies of his they don't support. I very rarely hear anyone telling me what specifically they like about Kerry, which policies they like and why.

And I can't speak for anyone else's feelings, but I can say that I personally don't like demeaning anyone, no matter who or what it is, so I WOULD say the same thing if the politician went unnamed.

[hlao23]

Not sure what I've said that makes anyone think I'm portraying Bush as evil. Wonder how I could go about portraying that it's not HIM that I think is scary but rather what he and his administration allow to happen?

[Grace]

Just as my putting a picture of the gay couple getting married in my yard wouldn't be about those gay people in particular, but the idea that gay marriage is scary and what would happen if it were allowed.

[gertdog]

So if I happen to think the president is in fact evil (I don't) and scary (I do), I'm hateful and intolerant? His policies in a number of areas scare me. Policies: scary. Halloween: scary. It's a pun, a joke. It's all still just my opinion, it's satire, you disagree with the content and the method of delivery, but that doesn't make me- or my message- hateful or intolerant.

[slknight]

Originally posted by aggie94




Everybody knows America isn't easy. America is advanced citizenship. You gotta want it bad, 'cause it's gonna put up a fight. It's gonna say, "You want free speech? Let's see you acknowledge a man whose words make your blood boil, who's standing center stage and advocating, at the top of his lungs, that which you would spend a lifetime opposing at the top of yours. You want to claim this land as the land of the free, then the symbol of your country can't just be a flag; the symbol also has to be one of its citizens exercising his right to burn that flag in protest." Show me that, defend that, celebrate that in your classrooms. Then you can stand up and sing about the land of the free.

Just want to say this is from one of the best speeches in one of my favorite movies - "My name is Andrew Shephard, and I AM the President!" Back to lurking again. I dislike controversy.

[Grace]

Originally posted by gertdog
So if I happen to think the president is in fact evil (I don't) and scary (I do), I'm hateful and intolerant? His policies in a number of areas scare me. Policies: scary. Halloween: scary. It's a pun, a joke. It's all still just my opinion, it's satire, you disagree with the content and the method of delivery, but that doesn't make me- or my message- hateful or intolerant.

I'm just going to exchange the words gay for president in your own sentence and you can tell me yourself what you think.


So if I happen to think gays are evil (I don't) and gay marriage is scary (I do), I'm hateful and intolerant? The idea of gay marriage for a number of reasons scares me. Gay Marriage (which is a policy): scary. Halloween: scary. It's a pun, a joke. It's all still just my opinion, it's satire, you disagree with the content and method of delivery, but that doesn't make me- or my message- hateful or intolerant.

So you can see how this could appear exactly the same to many people.

Again, I repeat for the very last time - (I swear) - everyone is welcome to say and do whatever they want! I'm just trying to point out that if your idea of shouting your message to the world no matter how it is perceived is more important to you than the idea of possibly offending people you like, have at it!

[MrsReber]

Well, I finally decided to read this thread. Wow.

Personally, I would never put up such a display because I would wonder if some parents would direct their children away from my house. Also, IMO, Halloween is supposed to be fun and scary for the kids. If you're audience is the adults, that's one thing, I suppose. I think I'd spend my time making something that the kids would appreciate rather than some kind of political statement for the adults.

I'll stay out of the political debate, except to note that I cannot look at Kerry and not think of Guy Smiley from Sesame Street. I swear, it's him. Big long face and weird hair.

[gertdog]

Originally posted by Grace


I'm just going to exchange the words gay for president in your own sentence and you can tell me yourself what you think.


So if I happen to think gays are evil (I don't) and gay marriage is scary (I do), I'm hateful and intolerant? The idea of gay marriage for a number of reasons scares me. Gay Marriage (which is a policy): scary. Halloween: scary. It's a pun, a joke. It's all still just my opinion, it's satire, you disagree with the content and method of delivery, but that doesn't make me- or my message- hateful or intolerant.

So you can see how this could appear exactly the same to many people.


I think they're not the same thing, as I stated before, so I don't think your transposing the words makes much sense. He's a politician. Part of politics and political participation is agreeing or disagreeing with the policies of the officeholder and expressing those views, whether in a straightforward or humorous manner. The president is elected to public office and subject to the review and criticism of the voting public.

And again, you're free to your opinion, which apparently *is* that my opinion is hateful and intolerant. Oh, the irony.

[badunnin]

Originally posted by Grace


I'm just going to exchange the words gay for president in your own sentence and you can tell me yourself what you think.


So if I happen to think gays are evil (I don't) and gay marriage is scary (I do), I'm hateful and intolerant? The idea of gay marriage for a number of reasons scares me. Gay Marriage (which is a policy): scary. Halloween: scary. It's a pun, a joke. It's all still just my opinion, it's satire, you disagree with the content and method of delivery, but that doesn't make me- or my message- hateful or intolerant.

So you can see how this could appear exactly the same to many people.

Again, I repeat for the very last time - (I swear) - everyone is welcome to say and do whatever they want! I'm just trying to point out that if your idea of shouting your message to the world no matter how it is perceived is more important to you than the idea of possibly offending people you like, have at it!


You swapped the words out, but used the words "gay" and "gay marriage" as being interchangeable. Had you actually swapped "president" with gay, you would have gotten:

So if I happen to think gays are evil (I don't) and gays are scary (I do), I'm hateful and intolerant? The idea of gays for a number of reasons scares me. Gays: scary. Halloween: scary. It's a pun, a joke. It's all still just my opinion, it's satire, you disagree with the content and method of delivery, but that doesn't make me- or my message- hateful or intolerant.

Now, are gays scary, or is gay marriage scary?

[gertdog]

Originally posted by MrsReber


I'll stay out of the political debate, except to note that I cannot look at Kerry and not think of Guy Smiley from Sesame Street. I swear, it's him. Big long face and weird hair.

Heh- and I see Franken-Kerry (I think I saw a political cartoon at some point). So maybe he'd be appropriate for a Halloween yard display? :p

Actually, for the record, I'd probably leave politics out of my yard display too just because it's not my style. And I might look askance at what I saw in other people's yards, either because I disagreed with the message or because I found the method of delivery to either be really clever or really weird. I'm absolutely not saying people aren't entitled to an opinion either way. What I'm taking issue with is the attribution of those displays/expressions to hate and intolerance. Somehow we moved from the opinion that such displays are classless and tasteless to the idea that they're based on hate, and that's the part I'm just not getting.

[Grace]

Gosh, I feel like I'm beating my head against the wall. Your opinion is not hateful and intolerant! The presentation is. It's MEAN-SPIRITED.

Disliking Bush, not agreeing with policies, ALL PERFECTLY WONDERFUL.
And you're absolutely correct. Politicians are open to whatever scrutiny people want to throw out there. Again, it's not an argument about what's ALLOWED, but what's more effective and more tolerant of those who might disagree.


And Bethany, my "translation" was correct. Gertdog said she objected to the president's and the administration's policies, which is what I liken to the idea of gay marriage. Policies are the objection, not the human being. She said his POLICIES scare her, not "Bush the man scares me".

[gertdog]

Originally posted by Grace
Gosh, I feel like I'm beating my head against the wall. Your opinion is not hateful and intolerant! The presentation is. It's MEAN-SPIRITED.


Well then I really am confused. Earlier you said that you were really tired of satire that was based on hate (I'm paraphrasing), and the implication I took from that was that the opinion being expressed was hate-based. Mean-spirited is one thing, but I would certainly not equate that with hate and intolerance.

[Grace]

Ach. I feel like I'm going around in circles. The display is not being put up because they LOVE Bush. They can't stand the guy. So they want to present him in the worst light they can think of. That's mean-spirited.

And if you agree then that it might be classless and tasteless, then you tell me what's classless and tasteless about it? I think you'd find the answer to what you're asking me right there.

And as an example of satire that isn't based on hate, when someone does a Julia Child impression which always makes me laugh, or even an impression of me and the way I laugh or something (I have a cackle-y laugh :rolleyes: ), I know they aren't making fun of me (or Julia) to hurt me (unlike the Bush display), but because they love me (and everyone loved Julia). There ARE different kinds of parody and satire.

I don't think I'll ever get my point across, so I give up.

[greysangel]

I'm not sure how much relevance this has, but I thought about it after reading this thread so I'll post it here...(I think it's sort of in relation to what Susan was saying)

I also think Halloween should be fun AND scary. I really love Halloween and Chaz and I usually go all out with the celebrating and partying. One of the things we wont be doing this year is the annual parade in the village. We made that mistake during the last election year and the entire parade was political :( It really wasn't fun compared to other years where the costumes are so varied, creative and ecclectic. For some reason on election year, it has to be a big message. Which makes it not fun.

J

[gertdog]

Originally posted by Grace
Ach. I feel like I'm going around in circles. The display is not being put up because they LOVE Bush. They can't stand the guy. So they want to present him in the worst light they can think of. That's mean-spirited.

And if you agree then that it might be classless and tasteless, then you tell me what's classless and tasteless about it? I think you'd find the answer to what you're asking me right there.

And as an example of satire that isn't based on hate, when someone does a Julia Child impression which always makes me laugh, or even an impression of me and the way I laugh or something (I have a cackle-y laugh :rolleyes: ), I know they aren't making fun of me (or Julia) to hurt me (unlike the Bush display), but because they love me (and everyone loved Julia). There ARE different kinds of parody and satire.

I don't think I'll ever get my point across, so I give up.

No, I don't agree that it's classless and tasteless. I was referring to your earlier use of that description, not my own opinion. You're entitled to your opinion, of course. What got my back up is the implication that all satire that shows someone in a negative light is hate-based or mean-spirited or both, and clearly we are not going to agree on that point.

We have probably bored everyone else to tears at this point, so like you, I'll stop. Hlao23, I hope you have fun with your holiday display, whatever it ends up being!

[mlr73]

Originally posted by Grace
I find it funny that most Bush supporters spend their time talking about what they like about Bush, which policies of his they support and why, and most Kerry supporters spend their time talking about what they hate about Bush so much and what policies of his they don't support. I very rarely hear anyone telling me what specifically they like about Kerry, which policies they like and why.

Are you kidding me??? All I ever hear from Bush supporters is negative talk about Kerry. I don't hear much about what Bush policies they support and why. Even a lot of the politicians I see on TV often talk badly about Kerry rather than talking about Bush's policies.

As for this comment: "Gosh, I feel like I'm beating my head against the wall. Your opinion is not hateful and intolerant! The presentation is. It's MEAN-SPIRITED", how can that be?? The presentation is hateful and intolerant, yet the opinion is not??? THE PRESENTATION IS HER OPINION!

Also, the example of the Julia Child satire isn't really what I'd call satire. I think it is more of a parody. IMO

I'm probably going to offend here, but I'm going to say it anyway -- I do find George W. Bush, Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld and John Ashcroft evil. JUST MY OPINION.

[jmarie]

Is it my imagination or does Bush like Tom Brokaw, in this pictire?
http://www.drudgereport.com/bb.jpg

[Loremma]

Originally posted by jmarie
Is it my imagination or does Bush like Tom Brokaw, in this pictire?
http://www.drudgereport.com/bb.jpg

He looks like a giant tortoise to me in this picture!:)

[Jen]

He looks like a giant tortoise to me in this picture!

OMG Lori...I am LMAO!!!! :D

[badunnin]

Originally posted by Loremma


He looks like a giant tortoise to me in this picture!:)

I just expect him to start talking like Crush from "Finding Nemo"

"You so totally rock, Squirt! So give me some fin..noggin.."

[Goldie]

Here would be my reaction, if walking past such a display with my kids -

"Gosh isn't this a fantastic country that we live in, that people are FREE to express themselves".

That is what sets us apart from much of the rest of the world. Let's not forget it.

Didn't this all start out as an expression of fear anyway, not hate? There are many people in the country who are genuinely AFRAID of Bush and what four more years could do. And they have every right to express that opinion.

Nobody ever said politics was nice.

[donnamp14]

So, hlao23, what's the bottom line here? Are you going to put up a scary Bush display, and if so, what? Inquiring minds want to know! ;)

-Donna

[HejazSunKat]

Originally posted by kima
My comments about nastiness would have been my feelings no matter who it was.

With all due respect Maureen, I don't think so. You have an uncommonly close friendship with Grace so I think you are biased when it comes to what you perceive to be attacks on her. Your loyalty is admirable but she is more than capable of taking care of herself (and, come to think of it, so is Bush). I'm with Stephanie on this one: There was no nastiness directed at Grace or anyone else on this thread.


Originally posted by Grace
they want to present him in the worst light they can think of. That's mean-spirited.

Yes, it is - Welcome to The Show, Grace. Making the other side look bad is what politics is all about. In fact, I suspect winning, at whatever cost, is what it's all about. You are enough of a realist (or are you?) to understand that politics is not a pretty game, it's a blood sport. BOTH sides are doing whatever they can to represent the other in the WORST light. Why do I get the impression from reading your posts that you believe only the evil liberal democrats engage in mean-spirited politicking (and I'm speaking of the campaigns as a whole not individuals) and the republicans have clean hands? You don't really believe that do you?

[HejazSunKat]

Originally posted by jmarie
Is it my imagination or does Bush like Tom Brokaw, in this pictire?

Is that a good thing Joyce?

[kima]

Well i don't think my friendship with Grace influenced what I said but I am quite willing to accept that it could seem that way. What was frustrating me is that time and time again she said this was her opinion on what satire is etc. and not once did anyone acknowledge that. You don't have to agree with her- in fact on that point I don't- but just listen to what the person is really saying. I don't think that happened.
Grace certainly doesn't need me to defend her. I never have before-I just got tired of her having to repeat her position over and over again to closed ears.

Political discussions always seem to be two opposing sides firing away with no real dialogue. With all the problems in the world we need to listen and care what others say IMHO.
(I promised to bow out of this but since Linda directed a comment to me directly (which I don't mind at all) I felt I should respond.
After this I am staying out of any and all political threads (and please whip me with a wet noodle if I break this promise to myself!!!)

:D :D

[stefania4]

Originally posted by Goldie
Here would be my reaction, if walking past such a display with my kids -

"Gosh isn't this a fantastic country that we live in, that people are FREE to express themselves". I guess I see it differently - I'd think "they're going to have overly-intellectual, unfunny costumes and no good candy. I bet those people next door with the cute ghosts have 3 Musketeers bars."

:D :D :D

Seriously, I don't see the big deal. If someone in our neighborhood put up a big political Halloween display, I doubt it's going to incur insurgency in the neighborhood youth, incite vandalism, or throw the election one way or the other. At worst, it could result in a revocation of Junior League membership and a fine if the neighborhood association is one of those really restrictive ones.

[Abby]

Originally posted by HejazSunKat


There was no nastiness directed at Grace or anyone else on this thread.


Then I guess you haven't read any of Bobmark's posts.

[jmarie]

posted by HejazSunKat

Is that a good thing Joyce?

Good grief...why does it have to be bad...or good for that matter. :confused: I saw the picture and thought I saw a resemblance and asked. :rolleyes:

[HejazSunKat]

Originally posted by Abby
Then I guess you haven't read any of Bobmark's posts.

Thank you Abby, I've read the entire thread and I disagree with your assessment of the tone of the discussion.

[Kayaksoup]

Originally posted by Grace
And as an example of satire that isn't based on hate, when someone does a Julia Child impression which always makes me laugh, or even an impression of me and the way I laugh or something (I have a cackle-y laugh :rolleyes: ), I know they aren't making fun of me (or Julia) to hurt me (unlike the Bush display), but because they love me (and everyone loved Julia). There ARE different kinds of parody and satire.


This is bothering me. The definition of satire has been stated.
And parody is different from satire. Satire is used to point out people's faults. Note that caricature and NOT satire is listed as a synonym of parody.
Parody par·o·dy ( P ) Pronunciation Key (pr-d)
n. pl. par·o·dies

A literary or artistic work that imitates the characteristic style of an author or a work for comic effect or ridicule. See Synonyms at caricature.
The genre of literature comprising such works.
Something so bad as to be equivalent to intentional mockery; a travesty: The trial was a parody of justice.
Music. The practice of reworking an already established composition, especially the incorporation into the Mass of material borrowed from other works, such as motets or madrigals.

Parody is more about caricature.

You can't hold an opinion that goes contrary to actual definition, is what BOb is trying to say, I think. Definition of opinion follows.

o·pin·ion ( P ) Pronunciation Key (-pnyn)
n.
A belief or conclusion held with confidence but not substantiated by positive knowledge or proof: “The world is not run by thought, nor by imagination, but by opinion” (Elizabeth Drew).
A judgment based on special knowledge and given by an expert: a medical opinion.
A judgment or estimation of the merit of a person or thing: has a low opinion of braggarts.
The prevailing view: public opinion.
Law. A formal statement by a court or other adjudicative body of the legal reasons and principles for the conclusions of the court.


<snip>Opinion is applicable to a judgment based on grounds insufficient to rule out the possibility of dispute: “A little group of willful men, representing no opinion but their own, have rendered the great Government of the United States helpless and contemptible” (Woodrow Wilson). View stresses individuality of outlook: “My view is... that freedom of speech means that you shall not do something to people either for the views they have or the views they express” (Hugo L. Black). Sentiment and especially feeling stress the role of emotion as a determinant: “If men are to be precluded from offering their sentiments on a matter which may involve the most serious and alarming consequences... reason is of no use to us” (George Washington). “There needs protection... against the tyranny of the prevailing opinion and feeling” (John Stuart Mill). A belief is a conclusion to which one subscribes strongly: “Our belief in any particular natural law cannot have a safer basis than our unsuccessful critical attempts to refute it” (Karl Popper). Conviction is belief that excludes doubt: “the editor's own conviction of what, whether interesting or only important, is in the public interest” (Walter Lippmann). Persuasion applies to a confidently held opinion: “He had a strong persuasion that Likeman was wrong” (H.G. Wells).

[salukichic]

:confused: Why are so many of you attacking Grace? Your answers have proved her point. Also, it seems to be the "liberal" way to be lovely toward everyone and how we should all get along, until someone doesn't agree with you, then you become vivious and nasty.

I have two words for the halloween display, class and respect, neither of which the display has. You can get your point across and still maintain both of those things. However when people disagree or are against President Bush, those things are out the window. What happened to having respect for the position?

[aggie94]

Originally posted by salukichic
Also, it seems to be the "liberal" way to be lovely toward everyone and how we should all get along, until someone doesn't agree with you, then you become vivious and nasty.

What a lovely generalization. :rolleyes: For the record, there have been plenty of "liberals" on this thread who have been nothing but respectful while expressing their opinions. Personally, I don't think anyone has been "vicious" or "nasty," but then again, opinionated people do often come off that way to people who disagree with those opinions.

[mlr73]

Originally posted by salukichic
:confused: Why are so many of you attacking Grace? Your answers have proved her point. Also, it seems to be the "liberal" way to be lovely toward everyone and how we should all get along, until someone doesn't agree with you, then you become vivious and nasty.

I have two words for the halloween display, class and respect, neither of which the display has. You can get your point across and still maintain both of those things. However when people disagree or are against President Bush, those things are out the window. What happened to having respect for the position?

It seems to be the "conservative" way to tell Hlao23 that the idea for a scary Bush halloween display is classless and disrespectful, among other things. Hlao23 wasn't asking anyone whether or not they thought the idea was classless or disrespectful. She asked for ideas of what she could do. How do you know the display won't be classy and respectful? Just because Hlao23 might disagree with Bush?? Since when did our country become "you either agree with us or you're against us?" I don't think it has been revealed what Hlao23 is going to do for the display, so no one can say it is classless or disrespectful.

You want to talk about respect? How about President Bush meeting the mother of a soldier who was killed (about 2 weeks after he reinlisted) in Iraq. Bush didn't have the class or respect to learn her name beforehand - he just called her "mom". Now, I think that is highly disrespectful and very classless.

[MrsReber]

Yes, JeAnne, that's it exactly- a political statement, good or bad, isn't really in line with Halloween as I see it. It's fun for adults, maybe, but the kids are so very into it. I don't see what they're getting out of some political decoration.

Also, if I saw something like that at someone's house, my first thought would not be "how great that we're all free to express our opinion." I think I'd roll my eyes- kinda like this :rolleyes: - and wonder why a person wouldn't invest their time in making it cool for the kids. My kids are too young to understand the election business and they'd rather see pumpkins, ghosts, and goblins. They'll remember the cool and scary houses and they'll go home and eat their candy.

I guess I just don't understand the point of the whole thing- satire, comical, trying to make a statement, or whatever. I view Halloween as (first off) for kids and secondly for adults to have fun. I'm not saying that I'd be offended in any way, but there are people out there who would be. That kind of ruins the fun of the whole day.

[HejazSunKat]

Originally posted by MrsReber
My kids are too young to understand the election business and they'd rather see pumpkins, ghosts, and goblins. They'll remember the cool and scary houses and they'll go home and eat their candy.

I'm not saying that I'd be offended in any way, but there are people out there who would be. That kind of ruins the fun of the whole day.

If we're simply talking about putting up a sign with a picture of Bush on it that is similar to the one Joyce posted of John Edwards (with an unflattering expression on his face) and a caption such as 'Oh No, 4 more years?!' I would find that mildly amusing and no more offensive (if I were a Bush supporter) than the HUGE Bush/Cheney '04 sign I drive by every day on somebody's front lawn (Yes! In Massachusetts! :)) that I think is so big it's really 'in your face'. Ok, somebody likes Bush/Cheney and wants to shout it from the rooftops and make me look at it every day. It's a minor annoyance to me but I'm not offended by it. If someone is, then they are way, way too sensitive. As you've said Susan, most of the kids who are out there trick or treating are too young to be politically conscious and are going to have more important things on their minds (i.e. getting candy) than trying to figure out what the display on Hlao's front lawn is all about and concluding it gives them permission to disrespect authority from now on because of it. I seriously doubt it's going to scar them for life.

[MKSquared]

Halloween is two days before the Presidential election. Should we only decorate our homes for Halloween if we have no political messages? I think the juxtaposition between the traditional scary decorations and Hlao's political opinion is clever.

[hlao23]

http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:fhx9KlrupCUJ:http://www.muppetcentral.com/_images/sesame/guy.jpg



http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:yj-4K_9ghCsJ:http://imgs.idnes.cz/zahranicni/A040204_MAD_KOPIEKERRY_CE_V.JPG Rats...I found pics of Kerry and pics of Guy Smiley...they won't post tho... :(

I can see it. :D

Yes, Stefania, no good candy bars. :) I do my best to find pencils or small toys. I have this "thing" about giving out candy. I have the idea to give out home made treats but never seem to be able to plan enough ahead to go thru with it...we have over 150 kids generally.

Still not sure what I'm doing...I've got some people at work helping me to think it thru...I'll do something if I feel I can do a good job of it. I'll most certainly keep you posted.

[bobmark226]

Originally posted by MrsReber
Yes, JeAnne, that's it exactly- a political statement, good or bad, isn't really in line with Halloween as I see it. It's fun for adults, maybe, but the kids are so very into it. I don't see what they're getting out of some political decoration.


Then, please, please, tell all those people who bring their kids to the classic Greenwich Village Halloween Parade, the biggest and probably best in the country, where there is almost as much political costuming and display as there are other costumes, to stay home!

Bob

[leebee]

Okay, if we're actually really talking about what's disturbing to kids, my son is certainly more affected by a bloody, gory, graphic "horror" type display than of either of the candidates dressed up like a vampire or Frankenstein's monster. And a picture with a political "quip" would be WAY over his head. What age are we worried about "offending" or scarring for life, here? If a "child" is sophisticated enough to have their own meaning system challenged by a political display, why are they Trick or Treating? This is about our own personal agendas & what we as individuals find offensive. Personally, I have a problem w/ kids who will be dressed up as soldiers w/ bloody wounds. I saw plenty last year & I remember a lot of them during the first Gulf War. A soldier is fine--but I think it crosses the line to make a gaping head would, etc. That's my opinion & I'll still give the kid candy. I don't hold it against them. It just seems tacky to me--I find young girls who dress up as prostitutes tacky, too. But I don't hold a grudge & say to myself, "Wow, they are really making an offensive and hateful statement. NO CANDY FOR YOU." No, I chalk it up to a different set of mores & values and maybe what I consider poor judgement on the part of a parent, and away they go w/ a Tootsie Pop. But if my neighbor puts up a picture of Kerry dressed up as an Eggo waffle, I'm not gonna think they are hateful. I may not like it, but it's their right. And maybe I'll put up a picture of Bush in a school boy outfit w/ a dunce cap on. Equal time, right? And I guarantee I can laugh w/ my neighbor over it--because no matter what our opinions, we are adults and can remain respectful even in light of our differing opinions.

[MrsReber]

leebee, I'm not talking about my kids being "offended" or "scarred for life". That's not an issue for me. It's my job as a parent to explain that the bloody, scary displays are just part of the fun and they're not real. Besides, I'll be taking my kids around while it's still light out so they don't get scared and they have fun. I don't really care if someone wants to put up a political display or not (or if I have to explain it to my child, who won't understand). I'm just saying it's not a whole heck of a lot of fun for the kids.

But, the bottom line is that we all have the freedom to express our opinions.

And Bob, I don't know why people would bring thier kids to the parade in the Village in the first place. Hasn't that always been an "adult" parade?

I just knew Kerry and Guy Smiley looked alike!

[leebee]

Oh, I understand that, Susan! I guess I just read all 4 pages of replies & it's something that has come up previously. I think you've stated yourself very well and made a very good point. Sorry if I gave the impression I was trying to pigeonhole you! I'm often an irresponsible poster!

[MrsReber]

Leebee, no problem. I know how hard it is to try to get a point across by written word only. Even the darn smileys don't always help. I didn't think I was being picked on. Just trying to explain a little better.

I do think some people are taking it way too seriously. An issue came up in NJ recently where a teacher was reprimanded for having a picture of Bush in her classroom. Some parents actually complained and the school responded. She was told to write apologies to all the parents!! Apparently the picture was put up on a wall that also had Snoopy listed as "First Dog". Oddly enough, nobody complained that Snoopy was being forced down their throats. I mean, Bush is the President of our country. You can like him, hate him, make fun of him, whatever. That's your right, but I really have to draw the line when a teacher cannot display a picture of the President for fear of offending someone! People are really erring on the side of caution when it comes to being PC these days. It's starting to really make me sick. I don't even want my kids to go to public school because of stupid stuff like that.

[HejazSunKat]

Originally posted by MrsReber
People are really erring on the side of caution when it comes to being PC these days. It's starting to really make me sick.

Ain't that the truth!

[Kristilyn1]

Originally posted by kirkbyky


What I don't understand is how that image can be deemed disrespectful, and more importantly (to me, anyway) why are the President's feelings/image of greater concern than that image of 1000+ soldiers who died in combat under his direction.

JMarie: LOL!!:D That picture is hilarous! Thanks for the chuckle.

Kyle

Okay, I'll bite. How about this one. Right to lifers, like to use the images of an aborted fetus. I think this is shameful and disgusting, plus a really cheap trick to get your point across. So if you object to that image, I can smugly say "how can YOUR feelings about abortion be superseded by the idea that millions of babies are being killed by their own parents?". I am not in any way trying to bring up abortion for any specific reason other than it is something that comes to mind in terms of really disturbing imagery. I realize that disrespectful pictures of the President is hardly in the same league as abortions-----I'm just trying to follow the logical chain of thinking as far as you can go with it, which is:

is it okay to say something or show something completely disrespectful to some people , as long as you have some larger, important agenda to get across? I certainly can't argue someone's right to do this, I just question why you would want to be rude like that. Feel free to do whatever you want, but don't be surprised if it ends up saying a lot more about you than you ever wanted to say.

So to bring up another poster or two's comments--It's okay to put disrespectful pictures on our lawn of politicians because they are elected, but not of teachers because they are employed by our town. The logic of that completely escapes me. Maybe because there isn't any logic in it. It's seems to me that some people have decided in their own minds, who's fair game and who isn't. Maybe I can superimpose images of monkey bodies and attach them to facial images of local politicians in my area. I bet everyone would love that "satire".

Also just for the record, personally I don't actually have much opinion at all of the proposed Halloween display. I'd probably walk by such a display with my children and say it was in poor taste, but I certainly wouldn't be outraged. Same way I am about the guy a few towns over who has a toilet planter in his yard. Come to think of it, I feel the same way about those lawn ornaments that look like ladies bent over too................now THAT'S disturbing.

Kristi

[Kristilyn1]

Originally posted by Kayaksoup



I did learn that it is not ok to follow the leader blindly, disagreement is good. If it is considered disrespectful to question the leaders decisions, or to disagree with them, than I am very frightened.
1984, anyone....

aren't you talking about two different things here? Disagreeing with ANYONE is healthy. Choosing instead to mock that person is something else. Some people are okay with it, others are not.

Kristi

[hlao23]

I'm still not understanding how it's disrespectful or mocking. Is it just because I'm thinking of displaying it on Halloween?

[Kristilyn1]

Originally posted by bobmark226


Ok, then your opinion is wrong.

Do you redefine everything? If I call myself a woman, does that make it so?

Bob

No, Bob you are just a jerk. Luckily that one is an equal opportunity insult. Though I guess Grace was just "asking for it" wasn't she? Feel free to share your illuminated thoughts on me. It's nice to know that it's not just Republicans who can be mean........

Kristi

[Kristilyn1]

Originally posted by gertdog
So if I happen to think the president is in fact evil (I don't) and scary (I do), I'm hateful and intolerant? His policies in a number of areas scare me. Policies: scary. Halloween: scary. It's a pun, a joke. It's all still just my opinion, it's satire, you disagree with the content and the method of delivery, but that doesn't make me- or my message- hateful or intolerant.

so if you looked around your neighborhood and saw signs with your face on them and they were portrayed as scary---you wouldn't be insulted? How about if they sold costumes of YOUR FACE as a really scary witch? George Bush is not some faceless entity or general term called "administration". He's a person. A person that a lot of people don't like, yes I know.

Kristi

[sillybeans]

This teacher analogy isn't working. There are legal differences between Public and Private individuals with regard to slander and libel laws. Elected officials are public individuals, thus the laws are more forgiving (unless the complainant can prove malice--which if my memory serves me right is reckless disregard for the truth) for public persons. Private persons are treated differently. Perhaps someone who has used this information in the last decade could elaborate--my media law class was in 1991.

So I can put up posters skewering Bush, a public person, without slander or libel. But the same poster of a private person would be defaming. And I could be sued.

Besides, as I don't live in a swing state, the odds of Bush stopping by my house is nil.:)

[Kristilyn1]

Originally posted by Kristilyn1


No, Bob you are just a jerk. Luckily that one is an equal opportunity insult. Though I guess Grace was just "asking for it" wasn't she? Feel free to share your illuminated thoughts on me. It's nice to know that it's not just Republicans who can be mean........

Kristi

I know I'm going to hear about the jerk comment from everyone, about how mean it is to put it. But I have to be honest, I disagree with a lot of people on here, and have gotten into it more than once, but I really do think Bob is a jerk. I'm not sorry I say it about him, I'm just sorry I posted it publicly as I know it will tick other people off. I'll let him have the last word on THAT part of it, if he wants. Otherwise, I'd like to hear back on my other posts.

Kristi

[syzygy]

For clarification, I NEVER said it was "okay to put disrespectful pictures on our lawn of politicians".

(And, for what it's worth, I don't have a lawn of politicians. But I'd have no problem putting satirical pictures of politicians on my lawn...):D

[jellyben]

My reaction to this display would be similar to someone who posted above-I would roll my eyes and move on. Not offended, not impressed. I am all for people speaking their minds on political issues and candidates, but I am getting sick of the obnoxious bumper stickers, signs and T shirts I am seeing all over the place. Maybe I just wasn't paying attention in previous elections, but have they always been this ugly?

[bobmark226]

Originally posted by Kristilyn1


No, Bob you are just a jerk. Luckily that one is an equal opportunity insult. Though I guess Grace was just "asking for it" wasn't she? Feel free to share your illuminated thoughts on me. It's nice to know that it's not just Republicans who can be mean........

Kristi

http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b4ce33b3127ccea83b2e2228e20000001610

[HejazSunKat]

Originally posted by Kristilyn1
I really do think Bob is a jerk. I'm not sorry I say it about him, I'm just sorry I posted it publicly

Yeah, you've 'posted it publically' twice now. Maybe he can sit up there in the bleachers with all the people you've been calling stupid lately. Pretty ironic that you're defending George Bush from supposed insults while hurling plenty of your own.

[leebee]

Originally posted by Kristilyn1



is it okay to say something or show something completely disrespectful to some people , as long as you have some larger, important agenda to get across? I certainly can't argue someone's right to do this, I just question why you would want to be rude like that. Feel free to do whatever you want, but don't be surprised if it ends up saying a lot more about you than you ever wanted to say.



We often answer our own questions, don't we?

[SandyM]

Originally posted by Kristilyn1


I know I'm going to hear about the jerk comment from everyone, about how mean it is to put it. But I have to be honest, I disagree with a lot of people on here, and have gotten into it more than once, but I really do think Bob is a jerk. I'm not sorry I say it about him, I'm just sorry I posted it publicly as I know it will tick other people off. I'll let him have the last word on THAT part of it, if he wants. Otherwise, I'd like to hear back on my other posts.

Kristi

Yes, people are talking about it. Privately. Is there a need to post vicious and personal comments such as this? I know of a few jerks around here, but I don't call them out on it. Please point me in the direction of other posts where people get as personal as you do. "Stupid" and "jerk" are apparently your two favorite words. :rolleyes:

[slknight]

Originally posted by Kristilyn1


I know I'm going to hear about the jerk comment from everyone, about how mean it is to put it. But I have to be honest, I disagree with a lot of people on here, and have gotten into it more than once, but I really do think Bob is a jerk. I'm not sorry I say it about him, I'm just sorry I posted it publicly as I know it will tick other people off. I'll let him have the last word on THAT part of it, if he wants. Otherwise, I'd like to hear back on my other posts.

Kristi

Well, I think it's not only mean, but probably in violation of your user agreement with CL:
"You agree not to post messages that are defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, harassing, obscene, sexually inappropriate, threatening, and/or invasive of another person’s privacy, or that otherwise violate applicable state, federal, or international laws."

On a few other boards I post on, this would get your membership suspended.