Hey Canadians, I have question! [Archive] - CookingLight.com Community

kima

11-03-2004, 11:05 AM

We are hearing from Americans who want to move up here- friends of min and family memebers have been inundated with questions!
I think for most people moving up here is a spontaneous, temporary desire. Leaving your country is a huge step. I also don't think you can just move here. If you are independently wealthy or would start a business employing Canadians then it is easier or so I hear.
I think many of you would find Canada a wee bit boring! The winters are long unless you live where I do on the west coast. Vancouver is a fabulous city but winters can be gray and overcast.
We have our problems too but I think JJ summed it up quite well.

It does seem ironic that the Republicans always talk about less gov't and we up here are portrayed as socialists with big gov't. I'd rather have a gov't that gives me good affordable health care than one which tells me what I can do with my own body or who I can marry.

We have a stake in your election too- are you all aware that Canada is your biggest trading partner and vice versa? We are affected by your gov't. So far Bush has ignored every ruling that has gone in my provine"s favour when it comes to free trade. Simply ignored the rulings and carried on! yes that pisses us off!

Kayaksoup

11-03-2004, 11:08 AM

Originally posted by kima
We have a stake in your election too- are you all aware that Canada is your biggest trading partner and vice versa? We are affected by your gov't. So far Bush has ignored every ruling that has gone in my province's favour when it comes to free trade. Simply ignored the rulings and carried on! yes that pisses us off! Ah yes softwood lumber. Gotta love it.

kima

11-03-2004, 11:24 AM

Sheesh- do you know how many times I am quoted with my typos ??I was going to edited that-thanks Linda!!!:p
Oh yes softwood lumber-don't get me started!
And I thought you were going to take me to task for my Vancouver comments!!! It is gloriously sunny here- about where you are????:)

Kayaksoup

11-03-2004, 11:25 AM

Beautiful, clear and crisp...
Sorry about quoting the typo:D

Sarah

11-03-2004, 11:26 AM

Beckms, we get waaay less snow than you do in MA. Something to think about :D Granted, it can be cold, but I don't mind that as much as dealing with the aftermath of a blizzard.

I think Julie has given you at least a small glimpse into some of the differences. They don't appear all that big on the surface, but idealogically we're a long way apart, and literally in each other's pockets!

atf

11-03-2004, 11:27 AM

I have spent this morning searching the web for info about Vancouver. Sounds like a great place to move but expensive depending on community. I've never been there. I need access to good schools and I don't drive. I think it would be fun to be part of a food lover's wagon train relocation. I love to make frittatas.

If change won't come to me I'll have to go to change.

KValley

11-03-2004, 11:30 AM

I imagine the following website is seeing some heavy traffic this morning, but here's the Canadian Govt Dept of Immigration http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/index.html

Kayaksoup

11-03-2004, 11:31 AM

atf, Vancouver can be expensive. I pay a lot of rent, but I also live in a wonderful area with easy access to public transit, within walking distance of everything you would ever need. We don't own a car, but there are many Co-op Auto Networks. As long as you live in the downtown area, I think a vehicle is entirely unneccessary. There are jobs in just about every sector (except lumber).
There are bad things too. Asian gangs, suburbs are the car theft capital of Canada, the downtown Eastside is teh drug addict capital of Canada.

jem927

11-03-2004, 11:32 AM

Actually, I had considered moving to Montreal when I first got my masters degree - but the bilingual requirement for a CA certification was a hindrance.

Given that I am typically in Montreal every summer, and that I am working on my French, I am SERIOUSLY considering a move up there. I truly feel that given the current political situation here, I would be more "at home" and comfortable with the politics up there.

Any thoughts on that type of move, rather than to an English speaking province?

Thanks in advance!

Jamie

JJ40

11-03-2004, 11:40 AM

I think taxes are higher here...but to me, a fairly regular user of the health care system, it's worth it to pay more taxes and know that I have consistent access to medical care.

Can anyone comment on day care here? The other that I really don't know much about (being fairly young and just starting to contribute to pension plans) is social security.

jem927, I lived in Montreal for 7 years...loved it! You can get by with knowing "some" French, depending on your career...fabulous, fabulous city to live in! What specifically would you like to know?

Natasha

11-03-2004, 11:40 AM

This is a topic I could go on and on about ;)

Hope to jump in tonight and chat about it if the thread is still going! I've lived in Ontario and Quebec and can speak to living in both an English-speaking and French-speaking Canadian environment.

Natasha :cool:

jem927

11-03-2004, 11:52 AM

Bonjour to all!

Montreal, oh Montreal!!!!

My biggest concern was the possible job limitations for someone that is not "fluent" in French. As I said in my prior post, I am working on it, but most of it is conversational French rather than "business" French if you will. By trade, if you will, I am a CPA, so business language plays into my daily life. Outside of that, I can usually get by with my current broken French and English.

Having spent quite a bit of time up there, I'm familiar with the transportation system (LOVE IT!), housing (Moving Day!), etc.

Any thoughts on this would be greatly appreciated.

TIA!

Jamie

atf

11-03-2004, 11:54 AM

Thanks for the responses.

My number one desire is a very safe neighborhood followed by good schools and pedestrian friendliness and good public transportation.

West Vancouver seems perfect except for the price. I also like the Port Alice area which is very reasonable in comparison but seems remote.

The immigration info was interesting -- luckily, I think I am a skilled worker (computer programmer).

If change won't come to me I'll have to go to change. (I made up that line this morning while writing the last post. Maybe it is a temporary reaction but it feels like it's been brewing under the surface for a long time.)

Kayaksoup

11-03-2004, 11:56 AM

atf, Port Alice is very remote.
How about looking to Victoria. i left there because I found it boring and squeaky clean:p , But a great place to grow up.
Also, my neighborhood, Kitsilano, is a very good neighbourhood and much cheaper than West Vancouver.

Hoodone

11-03-2004, 12:27 PM

I'm a U.S. expat living in Calgary. If any of you thinking about Canada are interested in hearing my thoughts about Calgary, please feel free to p.m. me.

muriel3002

11-03-2004, 12:34 PM

You may think the grass is greener on the other side of that border, but it's not necessarily the case - regardless of what side of the border you live on.

I've lived on both sides of the border and have a decidedly different opinion about health care ("free" or Universal does not mean GOOD), taxes, job opportunities, and others.

I am fortunate to have dual citizenship - US and Canadian and therefore I can choose.

Also, you may find immigrating not as easy as you think it might be.

badunnin

11-03-2004, 12:35 PM

Originally posted by muriel3002
You may think the grass is greener on the other side of that border, but it's not necessarily the case - regardless of what side of the border you live on.

No, but there are things that are BETTER for an individual. It's all a matter of where your priorities lie.

MiMo

11-03-2004, 12:40 PM

This thread is hilarious. To move to Canada for a job, for family, etc. is one thing, but to move because you don't like who was elected President of the United States? Come on. I want to hear if you really follow through and move to Canada because of this. Let me guess...you'll move back in four years when Hillary becomes President of the United states? Oh, wait...that'll never happen.

JJ40

11-03-2004, 12:40 PM

It is a very serious decision to pick up and move to another country...definitely not one to be made in haste. It is an individual decision and only you can know if it's right for you.

I've lived in Canada all my life so I can't compare the experience to living in the U.S. Hoodone sounds like a great resource since s/he has made the transition and would know the nitty-gritty of making the move.

badunnin

11-03-2004, 12:42 PM

Originally posted by MiMo
This thread is hilarious. To move to Canada for a job, for family, etc. is one thing, but to move because you don't like who was elected President of the United States? Come on. I want to hear if you really follow through and move to Canada because of this. Let me guess...you'll move back in four years when Hillary becomes President of the United states? Oh, wait...that'll never happen.

If I move, I won't come back. And I wouldn't move because of this election. I don't think it's hilarious at all, and I'm somewhat offended that someone believes that the decision I'm making, that I've been considering for the past several years, is at all funny or to be taken lightly.

JJ40

11-03-2004, 12:44 PM

but to move because you don't like who was elected President of the United States?

I think that's simplifying the issue somewhat...this post may be prompted by the election results, but clearly there are deeper ideological issues that are underlying beckms question. And likely there are issues of powerlessness going on here as well. I can't say I blame her...(were I American) and had I voted Democratic, I'd be feeling screwed and helpless myself. And whether beckms moves or not, she has the right to pursue this line of questioning. All the power to her!

jem927

11-03-2004, 12:48 PM

My thoughts of moving to another country are not strickly based upon the outcome of the election. It is more in concern of where this country has gone over the past four years, and the continued direction over the coming years. The impact of "W" will long outlast his 4 more years - he will be appointing judges, imposing his moral and religious beliefs upon us, etc. The implications of his choices with this will significantly impact not just my generation, but those to come, and in my opinion, it is not for the better.

Shall we discuss Supreme Court Justices? Rehnquist, is on his way out, as are others. Impact with Bush appointees - conservative judges who will take away a women's right to choose.

Shall we discuss "moral and religious beliefs"? I don't think ANY government has the right to determine what is and what isn't a marriage. This is just the beginning, and with "W" in office four more years, his conservative beliefs will continue to be pushed on us.

I know I am getting off topic with this post, but this election in my opinion was a crucial election for the future of our country, and I personally do not feel we are headed in the right direction. It completely goes against the original structure of our country and the vision that the fore-fathers had for it.

Just my 2 cents worth...

Jamie

muriel3002

11-03-2004, 12:59 PM

Originally posted by badunnin

No, but there are things that are BETTER for an individual. It's all a matter of where your priorities lie.

Very true! We had many reasons - one was climatic! It wasn't the be all and end all, but the thought of trying to vacation (1-3 months) during the winter during our retirement years on a Cdn. dollar which would probably be worth less than a US dollar was not a thought either of us relished.

badunnin

11-03-2004, 01:00 PM

Originally posted by muriel3002

Very true! We had many reasons - one was climatic! It wasn't the be all and end all, but the thought of trying to vacation (1-3 months) during the winter during our retirement years on a Cdn. dollar which would probably be worth less than a US dollar was not a thought either of us relished.

Whereas I'm most definitely a snowbunny, and could never live anywhere without hockey and snow!

muriel3002

11-03-2004, 01:01 PM

Careful - never say never. I said that when I was in my 20s, too.... I said I would never move "back home" as my parents would continue to call it even though it hadn't been "home" for 10, then 20 years.

And I'm not saying I'll never move back to Canada, either. But the medical system would have to change for me to want to go. We have friends in Ontario whose wife was recently diagnosed with cancer and is on an 8-month waiting list for treatment. How sad is that?

atf

11-03-2004, 01:07 PM

Eight-month waiting list, that's frightening! Is that pervasive? I have breast cancer and found the treatment in my area of US to be really good.

LHBryan

11-03-2004, 01:11 PM

Thanks so much for starting this thread! DH and I are very seriously considering moving to Canada. We have wanted to relocate for quite a while and our involvement with the campaign has definitely made us realize that we'd like to move to either Canada or a "blue" (or at least a battleground) state. Not to be a sore loser, but for DH and I, we really want to feel at home where we establish roots (we've moved around a lot) and to become involved in a community where likemindedness is not a rarity. I wouldn't move to Canada or another state just because I don't like who's elected as president--after all, we didn't move in 2000. We've just had enough of the close-mindedness in our community and state, and it would be really refreshing to live in a progressive city where many residents share our values. After 4 years of the Bush administration and now realizing we have 4 years to go, that's just giving us the extra nudge we've needed to research our options in Canada and in the U.S. I am interested in getting my PhD in art history and Toronto looks like a great option for us. I need to do some further reading, but any thoughts on Toronto are appreciated!

Hoodone, I recently traveled to Calgary on business and really liked it!

Gecko

11-03-2004, 01:11 PM

Originally posted by MiMo
Let me guess...you'll move back in four years when Hillary becomes President of the United states? Oh, wait...that'll never happen.

We careful about saying never....I can still remember when the comment was "an actor will never become the President of the United States, and look what happened. I guess time will tell.

I absolutely loved the time I spent in Canada. We desperately wanted to stay but at the time immigration was hard, an even though my DH was a structural engineer, he only got 1 point for occupation on the immigration score. If I remember correctly nurses and undertakers scored 10! - I thought this was funny because they are at opposite ends of the spectrum but both very needed :D . So it wasn't to be and we had to move back to Australia.

ClaraB

11-03-2004, 01:22 PM

Originally posted by LHBryan
Thanks so much for starting this thread! DH and I are very seriously considering moving to Canada. We have wanted to relocate for quite a while and our involvement with the campaign has definitely made us realize that we'd like to move to either Canada or a "blue" (or at least a battleground) state. Not to be a sore loser, but for DH and I, we really want to feel at home where we establish roots (we've moved around a lot) and to become involved in a community where likemindedness is not a rarity. I wouldn't move to Canada or another state just because I don't like who's elected as president--after all, we didn't move in 2000. We've just had enough of the close-mindedness in our community and state, and it would be really refreshing to live in a progressive city where many residents share our values. After 4 years of the Bush administration and now realizing we have 4 years to go, that's just giving us the extra nudge we've needed to research our options in Canada and in the U.S. I am interested in getting my PhD in art history and Toronto looks like a great option for us. I need to do some further reading, but any thoughts on Toronto are appreciated!

Hoodone, I recently traveled to Calgary on business and really liked it! I think your post gets to the crux of the matter - it may not be so much an issue of what country you live in, but what community you live in. Canada and the US are both very diverse countries, and I think those who are concerned about being with like-minded individuals, could consider moving to another part of the country. Believe me, there are parts of Canada that are just as conservative as parts of the US, and parts that are even more liberal. Also factor in the ceaseless Quebec demands for separation, and I'd say that Canada is just as politically divided as the US is.

Atf, yes, the wait times in most areas of Canada are pretty extensive - many Canadians travel to the US or other countries for healthcare, because the waiting times in Canada are so long. Frankly, healthcare in Canada is a mess. I've worked as an RN in both countries, and I will not work as an RN in Canada, should we ever move back. My mental health is worth more than any money I could make there.

LHBryan

11-03-2004, 01:23 PM

Originally posted by jem927
My thoughts of moving to another country are not strickly based upon the outcome of the election. It is more in concern of where this country has gone over the past four years, and the continued direction over the coming years. The impact of "W" will long outlast his 4 more years - he will be appointing judges, imposing his moral and religious beliefs upon us, etc. The implications of his choices with this will significantly impact not just my generation, but those to come, and in my opinion, it is not for the better.

Shall we discuss Supreme Court Justices? Rehnquist, is on his way out, as are others. Impact with Bush appointees - conservative judges who will take away a women's right to choose.

Shall we discuss "moral and religious beliefs"? I don't think ANY government has the right to determine what is and what isn't a marriage. This is just the beginning, and with "W" in office four more years, his conservative beliefs will continue to be pushed on us.

I know I am getting off topic with this post, but this election in my opinion was a crucial election for the future of our country, and I personally do not feel we are headed in the right direction. It completely goes against the original structure of our country and the vision that the fore-fathers had for it.

Just my 2 cents worth...

Jamie

:) Thanks, Jamie. You expressed my thoughts so eloquently and precisely. The Republican gains in the House and Senate also confirmed for me the continued movement of our country toward conservatism and the gradual unraveling of the separation of church and state.

ChristieinMB

11-03-2004, 01:25 PM

Originally posted by LHBryan
Not to be a sore loser, but for DH and I, we really want to feel at home where we establish roots (we've moved around a lot) and to become involved in a community where likemindedness is not a rarity. I wouldn't move to Canada or another state just because I don't like who's elected as president--after all, we didn't move in 2000. We've just had enough of the close-mindedness in our community and state, and it would be really refreshing to live in a progressive city where many residents share our values. After 4 years of the Bush administration and now realizing we have 4 years to go, that's just giving us the extra nudge we've needed to research our options in Canada and in the U.S.
Are you saying that likemindness is progressive (where many residents share your values) but people that don't share your values are close-minded. Your above comment sounds intolerant or close-minded?:(
Christie

jem927

11-03-2004, 01:49 PM

This one is a vent.. just have to get it off my chest or I will blow....

I was listening to "W"'s speech a bit ago, and the comment of "America has spoken" and a "broad, nationwide victory". It brings chills to me everytime I think about it.

Yes, America has spoken, and half of us said we wanted him OUT! And it was FAR from a "broad nationwide victory"...

GRRRRR!!!!!

ah.... much better.....

MiMo

11-03-2004, 01:50 PM

Originally posted by badunnin

If I move, I won't come back. And I wouldn't move because of this election. I don't think it's hilarious at all, and I'm somewhat offended that someone believes that the decision I'm making, that I've been considering for the past several years, is at all funny or to be taken lightly.

Oh yes Bethany...I was directing this at you. :rolleyes:

I was simply responding to the quote from Rebecca which read "I am deeply troubled by today's events". To me, that read that because of the Presidential outcome she was considering a move to Canada. Do I think it's "hilarious" if somebody wants to move to Canada for other reasons? No, I don't. I think anybody has the right to move anywhere they want for the right reasons (better quality of life, etc.) I just think it's rash and in haste to move because your candidate didn't win the election, and that's the way I read her reason for wanting to move to Canada.

Heck, I'm still waiting for Alec Baldwin to move to France since Gore didn't win. Action speaks louder than words, so if you want to move, do it.

MiMo

11-03-2004, 01:53 PM

Originally posted by jem927

Yes, America has spoken, and half of us said we wanted him OUT!

And what about the other half? Hmmm. We're all anxiously waiting for your response.

jem927

11-03-2004, 02:12 PM

Originally posted by MiMo

And what about the other half? Hmmm. We're all anxiously waiting for your response.

My feeling is this -- if America had spoken, the win margin would have been substantial, and it would reflect a coming together of both parties throughout the country. If it had been more of, oh say, 75/25 or so, yes, I could agree with his statements.

These past two presidential elections have been the closest in our nation's history, and to make broad statements as he did during his speech, to me, makes it sound like he has a huge head about this thing now. Again, I am biased on this, so perhaps your perception is not the same as mine.

My HOPE is that he will see that at this point, this country is deeply divided, and that he will work to bring everyone to a center, if you will, rather than to impose his conservative views upon us.

Like I said, I was venting and blowing off some serious steam. Unfortunately in my office, there are only 2 democrats (out of about 30 folks), so not much opportunity to vent here.

Jamie

sandee

11-03-2004, 02:31 PM

i don't really know what to say about the election stuff - bush baffles me and that most of the world was supportive of change and the US remains so deeply divided...but i do live in canada so here's my input. some ppl (kayaksoup, kima, badunnin, etc) have all made great points too.

canadians are way more liberal than americans, from what i can tell.
universal healthcare is a big plus. reading the ttc and toddler threads and listening to people worry whether in vitro fertilization, drugs, treatment, etc are covered by their HMOs, insurance, etc. That's not a worry here. that comment, about a woman waiting 8 mths for treatment for cancer...i don't believe that's the norm. waits are long, but the government is starting to take notice and do something about that. i have a friend with a brain tumour and she's received excellent timely care. i wouldn't trade longer waits for privatized health care.

on the whole, our country is in favour of gay marriage, decriminalizing pot, gun control, etc. there is definitely a separation between government and religion. just because you believe a particular thing doesn't mean that you have the right to impose that belief on everyone else.

lots of other ppl have articulated canadian attitudes a lot more succintly than i have.

there's been interest in vancouver too. i love vancouver, i think if you come here it's very hard to leave. the climate isn't as cold as you might think. it's pretty close to seattle. winter's range from 0-15C. it snows MAYBE once a year here. yes it rains frequently. however the past 2 winters have been the sunniest i've seen (global warming?). many people golf year round in vancouver. if you like to ski/board there's cypress and whistler close by.

the views are amazing. the ocean is everywhere, so you can get an amazing view of the water in the downtown core, north shore (west and north vancouver), kitsilano and the UBC area. but with the water, there are bridges and traffic. if you don't drive it's ideal to live close to your work since transit is just so-so. we have new rapid transit coming (coquitlam and richmond to downtown) but that won't be ready until 2010.

lifestyle. i disagree with kima that you'd be bored in vancouver. vancouverites tend to work less and be more laid back than other areas of canada and the us. it's hard not to with the access to golf, mountains, the seawall for walking and rollerblading, etc. so if you like outdoor activitities you'll love it. we also have one of the most multicultural cities in north america. that translates into great food! japanese, chinese, indian, korean, french. you name it, we've got it. i've travelled a lot and i don't think any other city rivals us for quality of food. the one area that vancouver lacks a bit in is the arts. our art gallery is ok. musicals,plays, and concerts pass through frequently, but we don't have the sheer volume that new york, LA, etc would have. Toronto and Montreal have more. above all else, vancouver is a hockey town and goes nuts for the canucks (whenever they start playing again).

i sound very pro-vancouver...there are bad points too. the east side is marginalized and there are homeless people, many with drug problems. taxes are higher, our dollar is weaker. we don't get all the stores that you have in the US. but really, i believe that now that canada has a stronger economy we can start to address these issues.

if anyone wants more info on vancouver, especially neighbourhoods, etc they can PM me.

if you're seriously thinking of moving, taking a vacation here and checking it out would probably be wise before taking such a big step.

jmarie

11-03-2004, 02:33 PM

OTTAWA (Reuters) - Disgruntled Democrats seeking a safe Canadian haven after President Bush won Tuesday's election should not pack their bags just yet.

Canadian officials made clear on Wednesday that any U.S. citizens so fed up with Bush that they want to make a fresh start up north would have to stand in line like any other would-be immigrants -- a wait that can take up to a year.

"You just can't come into Canada and say 'I'm going to stay here'. In other words, there has to be an application. There has to be a reason why the person is coming to Canada," said immigration ministry spokeswoman Maria Iadinardi.

There are anywhere from 600,000 to a million Americans living in Canada, a country that leans more to the left than the United States and has traditionally favored the Democrats over the Republicans.

But recent statistics show a gradual decline in U.S. citizens coming to work in Canada, which has a creaking publicly funded healthcare system and relatively high levels of personal taxation.

Government officials, real estate brokers and Democrat activists said that while some Americans might talk about a move to Canada rather than living with a new Bush administration, they did not expect a mass influx.

"It's one thing to say 'I'm leaving for Canada' and quite another to actually find a job here and wonder about where you're going to live and where the children are going to go to school," said one government official.

Roger King of the Toronto-based Democrats Abroad group said he had heard nothing to back up talk of a possible exodus of party members.

"I imagine most committed Democrats will want to stay in the United States and continue being politically active there," he told Reuters.

Americans seeking to immigrate can apply to become permanent citizens of Canada, a process that often takes a year. Becoming a full citizen takes a further three years.

The other main way to move north on a long-term basis is to find a job, which in all cases requires a work permit. This takes from four to six months to come through.

Official statistics show the number of U.S. workers entering Canada dropped to 15,789 in 2002 from 21,627 in 2000. Early indicators on Wednesday showed little sign of this changing.
A spokesman for Canada's foreign affairs ministry said there had been no increase in the number of hits on the Washington embassy's immigration Web site, while housing brokers said they doubted they would see a surge in U.S. business.

"Canada's always open and welcoming to Americans who want to relocate here, but we don't think it would be a trend or movement," said Gino Romanese of Royal Lepage Residential Real Estate Services in Toronto.

Those wishing to move to Canada could always take a risk and claim refugee status -- the path chosen earlier this year by two U.S. deserters who opposed the war in Iraq.

"Anybody who enters Canada who claims refugee status will be provided with a work permit ... it doesn't matter what country they're from," Iadinardi said.

Refugee cases are handled by special boards, which can take months to decide whether to admit applicants. The rulings can be appealed and opposition politicians complain some people ordered deported have been in Canada for 10 years or more.

End of Story

kima

11-03-2004, 03:10 PM

Hi Sandee! For the record I said they might find Canada boring- not Vancouver! Vancouver is my home city and I love the place but unlike Linda I prefer sqeaky clean, quaint Victoria to live in and Vancouver to visit for action! But I am old so....;)

I think alot of people here on the BB would miss the variety of products available in the States.No Target, no Trader Joe's, etc. One of my favourite aspects of life in the US is the African-American culture- I love the contribution black people make to the diversity of the US. I know that sounds weird and I may be accused of reverse racism!:rolleyes:

As far as treatment for cancer- we have a brand new cancer hospital here in Victoria (at the end of my street actually) and I have heard it is state of the art. Vancouver also has great medical facilities. Wait lists are going down. We pay 70.00 a month for medical. From what I have read medical insurance payments are going through the roof in the US.People alos have extra coverage at work in many situations. If you are rich here you might prefer to go to the Mayo clinic. For ordinary people like me our medical system is a godsend.:)

SusanMac

11-03-2004, 03:13 PM

Thanks for the article. Interesting thread. Sorry some people are so offended by the thought of leaving the US. Badunnin, I'll back you up. You are constantly talking about & visiting Canada. I'm sure you'd love it there. DH & I have a personal goal to live in another country one day for the great experience and to live in another culture, not to run away from our govt.

But, not liking your govt is a perfectly good reason to leave a country. In fact, I'm pretty sure it's how a huge percentage of people got to live in the US in the first place.

ClaraB

11-03-2004, 03:13 PM

Originally posted by sandee
i don't really know what to say about the election stuff - bush baffles me and that most of the world was supportive of change and the US remains so deeply divided...but i do live in canada so here's my input. some ppl (kayaksoup, kima, badunnin, etc) have all made great points too.

canadians are way more liberal than americans, from what i can tell.
universal healthcare is a big plus. reading the ttc and toddler threads and listening to people worry whether in vitro fertilization, drugs, treatment, etc are covered by their HMOs, insurance, etc. That's not a worry here. that comment, about a woman waiting 8 mths for treatment for cancer...i don't believe that's the norm. waits are long, but the government is starting to take notice and do something about that. i have a friend with a brain tumour and she's received excellent timely care. i wouldn't trade longer waits for privatized health care.

on the whole, our country is in favour of gay marriage, decriminalizing pot, gun control, etc. there is definitely a separation between government and religion. just because you believe a particular thing doesn't mean that you have the right to impose that belief on everyone else.

Yes, as a whole Canadians are more liberal than Americans, but there are tremendous differences between regions (as there are in the US). No matter what your political bent, you should be able to find a community in either country to suit you.

"Universal healthcare" in Canada is a myth. Prescription drugs are NOT covered in any province, to the best of my knowledge - you need private insurance for those, just as you do in the US. Are you saying that fertility drugs and in vitro fertilization are covered in BC? I know they're not in most other provinces. I'm glad your friend received excellent care for her cancer, but many other people in Canada don't - I think those who live in large metropolitan areas are unaware of the difficulty in obtaining healthcare in smaller centers. One of the tenets of universal healthcare is that it be equally available to everyone, and this just isn't the case in Canada. I'm sorry to rant about this, but Canada's healthcare system is a huge issue for me, having worked in it for years, and having family members who still use it.

You speak of a separation of church and state in Canada, but that just isn't the case. What about the public funding of Catholic schools in Ontario, or the political control the Catholic Church had in Quebec until the 1960's? The thing is, Canada (and Canadian politicians) is more areligious than the US, so there's an attitude that there's more of a separation of church and state in Canada. What cases are there when the American government has mandated or funded any religion?

LHBryan

11-03-2004, 03:15 PM

Originally posted by ChristieinMB

Are you saying that likemindness is progressive (where many residents share your values) but people that don't share your values are close-minded. Your above comment sounds intolerant or close-minded?:(
Christie

ChristineinMB,

Sorry, I didn't intend to come across that way at all. I certainly didn't mean likemindedness is progressive or that those who don't share my values are close-minded! We live in a very conservative state in a relatively small city. It's not a very culturally or politically mixed place, although that is slowly changing. In the past 5 years here, we've had a hard time meeting people with common interests. More recently we have really enjoyed meeting other liberal/progressive people through our involvement with regional Democrat volunteer groups. It took us 5 years to encounter people we felt we shared a lot in common with, which is what I meant by likeminded. Kentucky is not a "battleground state," and I was repeatedly told that my volunteer efforts on behalf of Kerry-Edwards were useless, that I should travel to a battleground state if I want to have a voice and make a difference. So many people told me I was wasting my time. It was very discouraging. And, I didn't really feel like I was contributing to the campaign until I began traveling to Ohio to volunteer. Of course Ohio went to Bush and that's fine with me--I was just glad to help in a place where I felt both candidates stood a chance of winning the electoral votes. In my idealist view, every state should be a battleground state and not assumed to have the same partisan voting pattern election after election. I know this is optimistic, but it's my desire nonetheless.

We've always wanted to relocate to a big city because of the cultural offerings, mass transit, food resources, etc., and now we realize more than ever that we want to live in a place that isn't set in stone politically, a place that has a more diverse array of opinions--liberal, moderate, AND conservative. I definitely don't want to live in a homogenous environment. I assume that if we were to live in a large, progressive city, like Chicago or Toronto or Seattle for example, we would readily encounter many who share our political views and many who do not. We're seeking more of a melting pot environment as our next place to live and hope we'll feel more at home there.

-Laura

funnybone

11-03-2004, 03:29 PM

Originally posted by ClaraB
What cases are there when the American government has mandated or funded any religion?

This thread is really interesting from a Canadian's POV. I refuse to even touch the subject of health care in Canada (or Ontario, anyway).

As for religion and government, I have always thought that the Canadian gov't was more religious in the sense the Good Friday is a national holiday and Easter Monday is for the gov't and public schools. In the US, most people have to work that day, and even when the kids have it off, they call it "teacher in service day" or whatever other term rather than "Good Friday". Also, some schools in the US do not allow kids to celebrate Christmas, but rather have "Winter" concerts or other festive terms.

Since I am not able to vote in the US, I keep my political views to myself, but all I will say is that regardless of the party in power, the US still have many great things to offer that other countries do not.

funnybone

11-03-2004, 03:38 PM

Before anyone moves to Canada, it may be a good idea to check out the tax rates (both federal and Provincial). Here is a link:

http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tax/individuals/faq/taxrates-e.html#provincial

sandee

11-03-2004, 03:46 PM

Originally posted by ClaraB

"Universal healthcare" in Canada is a myth. Prescription drugs are NOT covered in any province, to the best of my knowledge - you need private insurance for those, just as you do in the US. Are you saying that fertility drugs and in vitro fertilization are covered in BC? I know they're not in most other provinces. I'm glad your friend received excellent care for her cancer, but many other people in Canada don't - I think those who live in large metropolitan areas are unaware of the difficulty in obtaining healthcare in smaller centers. One of the tenets of universal healthcare is that it be equally available to everyone, and this just isn't the case in Canada. I'm sorry to rant about this, but Canada's healthcare system is a huge issue for me, having worked in it for years, and having family members who still use it.

I guess I should specify more. Many companies offer supplemental health benefits which do cover prescription drugs, etc and have health spending accounts where you can accumulate money pre-tax for medical spending how you want. IVF, I have no idea since I haven't needed to use it. Sure, metropolitan areas probably have better access to special care facilities such as cancer treatment centres etc. they transfer you from rural areas to these centres. and maybe i'm being heartless but why would you put a cancer centre in a rural location which would have a lower population to support it? i don't think in the US that it'd be much different. but when i say our health care is universal, i mean that everyone has the RIGHT to health care. You are not turned away from a hospital for not being able to pay for health care. Nor are you stuck with a bill of thousands of dollars because you required an overnight stay and you have no insurance.

You speak of a separation of church and state in Canada, but that just isn't the case. What about the public funding of Catholic schools in Ontario, or the political control the Catholic Church had in Quebec until the 1960's? The thing is, Canada (and Canadian politicians) is more areligious than the US, so there's an attitude that there's more of a separation of church and state in Canada. What cases are there when the American government has mandated or funded any religion?

Historically yes, all countries have their governments rooted in religion. However, what I had in mind is that PEOPLE in general tend to separate out their religion and religious views from their political views.

Often when watching the US election last night, they broke down the vote into categories of ethnicity, region, etc. One of the frequent themes i heard was the "White, Christian vote". That category doesn't really exist here. Canada has the same history rooted in Catholicism and Christianity as the US. But just because a person belongs to an organized religion or is religious, doesn't mean that they vote according to their religion here as was evidenced in our last election. Just because I'm pro-life doesn't mean that I vote for a candidate that is pro-life vs the other that is pro-choice. I think Canadians believe (more than Americans) that these are personal choices that people makes that can not be imposed through legislation.

Grace

11-03-2004, 03:51 PM

Originally posted by sandee

i mean that everyone has the RIGHT to health care. You are not turned away from a hospital for not being able to pay for health care. Nor are you stuck with a bill of thousands of dollars because you required an overnight stay and you have no insurance.

Well that's the big myth about our healthcare system too. You are not turned away from a hospital for not having insurance here. It's illegal. And people who are "stuck" with big bills afterwards just apply for Medicare (aka the Government) to pay for it. If they're turned down (they're usually not unless they have lots of money, which isn't usually the case since people with lots of money usually have insurance), they can just file bankruptcy and stiff the doctors/hospital completely. But no one is denied when they walk into a hospital and can't pay.

Sarah

11-03-2004, 04:49 PM

I live in a city of 85 000 and cannot get a GP. If I am sick, I go to the walk in clinic. The closest thing I had to a GP was my ortho when I broke my wrist in January. The receptionist didn't bat an eye when I said every week that I was in for my checkup that I still didn't have a family doctor. It's the norm. It's not for lack of looking, there are just no open practices. I live an hour from Toronto. I don't really live in the sticks, but it's a fact that I'm not in the minority on not being able to find a family doctor.
I book with my dermatologist 6 months in advance and drive 2 hours for the appointment. I live in fear that she'll retire and I'll have no one to check my moles, 4 of which I've had removed from my scalp, where I really can't check them myself.
Now they're afraid here that with the new incentives to go into family medicine, no one will become a specialist :rolleyes: I need the specialist, but we could use lots more family practices!!!

boisewinesnob

11-03-2004, 04:52 PM

Grace, what you meant (I think) is medicaid, which is the govt program for people who are low-income.
It is true at the hospital in which I work that people cannot be turned away. All patients are asked for insurance info at the time of admission/preadmission (if they are able to be asked), or if it is a major trauma, they are asked when they are conscious.
At our hospital, there are MANY MANY people who either have no insurance or are underinsured (eg: have huge deductible or exclusions). These people are assisted by people in our credit dept with applying for medicaid, county assistance, hospital charity, etc. You would not believe how much we write off to bad debt, charity, bankruptcy, medicaid contractuals; medicaid (and medicare, for that matter) pay almost nothing for services.

Sorry for the dissertation :o

beckms

11-03-2004, 05:03 PM

Originally posted by MiMo
This thread is hilarious. To move to Canada for a job, for family, etc. is one thing, but to move because you don't like who was elected President of the United States? Come on. I want to hear if you really follow through and move to Canada because of this. Let me guess...you'll move back in four years when Hillary becomes President of the United states? Oh, wait...that'll never happen.

That was uncalled for. I asked for information, and I have gotten some thoughtful and intelligent replies. Thank you to everyone else who actually had something worthwhile to contribute.

Grace

11-03-2004, 05:05 PM

Yes, Suzy, you're right, I meant Medicaid. Thanks for clarifying that for me. But I meant to point out exactly the point you made. That we have basically "free" healthcare for people who need it here too. What we don't have is free preventative care coverage.

beckms

11-03-2004, 05:13 PM

Originally posted by MiMo

Action speaks louder than words, so if you want to move, do it.

Ok, I'll just drop out of vet school and pack my bags for Canada and start paying back the $100,000 in school loans with the job I'll get with the degree I never received. :rolleyes:

I already said I couldn't go anywhere now. Sorry if I'm not conforming to your idea of how to orchestrate a revolution. I'm glad my heartbreak for our country is such a source of entertainment for you.

boisewinesnob

11-03-2004, 05:21 PM

Originally posted by Grace
But I meant to point out exactly the point you made. That we have basically "free" healthcare for people who need it here too. What we don't have is free preventative care coverage.

Yes, in a roundabout way anyone who wants/needs it has "free" emergency care, and they do get some preventative things covered via medicaid. But it still drives up the price for everybody else who either has insurance and/or has an income too high to qualify for assistance (govt or hospital).
I agree with you in that I don't really think the solution is to socialize medical care, but there is a big problem; especially for those people who have that in-between income level: too high for medicaid and too low to cover excessive/expensive prescriptions or insurance premiums or repeated dr visits (if they became seriously ill, I'm talking about).

Wendy w

11-03-2004, 05:52 PM

Here's an interesting article.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=1896&ncid=1896&e=5&u=/nm/20041103/us_nm/election_canada_haven_dc_1

kima

11-03-2004, 06:12 PM

Thanks Wendy! I believe this is the same article Joyce posted.

I don't have the statistics but I have heard that many Americans have to declare bankruptcy when hospital bill sbecome overwhelming. On another site I soetimes read a woman posted about her family having todeclare bankruptcy when she was diagnosed with cancer. She linked it to high medical bills not unemployment etc.
I honestly don't know how it works down there. It sounds like everyone gets good care whether they can pay or not but that is different than the impression I have.

ClaraB

11-03-2004, 07:29 PM

Originally posted by kima
Thanks Wedy! i believe this is the same article Joyce posted.

I don't have the statistics but I have heard that many Americans have to declare bankruptcy when hospital bill sbecome overwhelming. On another site I soetimes read a woman posted about her family having todeclare bankruptcy when she was diagnosed with cancer. She linked it to high medical bills not unemployment etc.
I honestly don't know how it works down there. It sounds like everyone gets good care whether they can pay or not but that is different than the impression I have. You're right Maureen, if you don't have insurance or medicaid in the US, the hospital bills can be tremendous. My understanding is that hospitals can't legally turn you away if you have a critical medical condition (eg a heart attack or are in labor) - as far as I know, they can turn you away if your condition isn't life-threatening and you can't pay. And even if you do have insurance, you can still get stuck with the bill if the company denies your claim (this has happened to a few friends of mine). Insurance companies are a pain to deal with :rolleyes: . That said, if you can afford it, the healthcare available here is generally superior to what you will find in most other countries, including Canada. I wish we could find a happy medium between socialized medicine and privatization (if such a thing exists).

kima

11-03-2004, 07:59 PM

Thanks Clara.

I completely agree that the US has the greatest medical facilities and doctors in the world. The best of both would be ideal but unlikely.:(

Grace

11-03-2004, 08:05 PM

I will repost about a situation in MY office at work. I am the plan administrator for our health insurance, so I know first hand what goes on (not hearsay from office gossip). We have several employees who CHOOSE not to take the health insurance because they don't want to pay for it. Not because they can't afford it (I know how much they make), but because they think they don't need it. :rolleyes: One guy, just a few short months ago had an acute appendicitis attack which turned bad. His appendix burst and all the infected stuff went all through his abdomen. Then he got an obstructed colon and a blood clot (all while in the hospital recuperating from his appendectomy). He was in bad shape and was in the hospital over 2 weeks. Now he has bills that total over $80,000. He has applied for Medicaid ( ;) thanks Suzy!), and because he makes enough money, he's not sure they'll accept his claim. He's still waiting to find out. If they don't (which is my personal guess, but who knows), my guess is he'll file bankruptcy and basically stiff the doctors and hospital that saved his life. He could also possibly get what Suzy referred to in her post - ask the hospital to write it off as a charity case or whatever. If it were me personally, I would pay those bills $10 at a time if need be for the rest of my life before I would stiff the doctors. And again, this guy CHOSE not to take the insurance because he simply didn't feel like paying for it. And as I said, we have a couple of people in our office who have opted not to take the insurance. So in our office of 25 people, there are THREE who simply don't want it and are willing to "risk" walking around with no coverage. Just like there are people who drive their cars around with no insurance because they don't WANT to pay for it. In most states now it's mandatory to carry car insurance, but that still doesn't mean everyone gets it. These people DO basically sponge off of the rest of us. Medicaid and write-offs cost all the rest of us LOTS of money. I am absolutely NOT against helping people who are truly needy, but what do we do about people who are just plain irresponsible? And I believe there are LOTS of those, not just a few. Just in my office alone, those 3 guys represent 12% of all our employees. I wonder how representative a figure that is of the general population. We have lots of HR people here - anyone else care to comment on how many people decline coverage altogether at their office (not meaning they're covered by a spouse or parent or something else but are walking around with NO coverage by choice)?

kima

11-03-2004, 08:16 PM

I remember that story Grace and totally agree that is irresponsible. Actually even here in my province (many provinces don't charge a thing) we have to pay a nominal monthly fee for insurance. If we didn't pay and could we would be in the same boat as that guy. So even if it was $400.00 a month we would find a way to pay it. Even if it meant no trips to Chicago and Target!!! Everything you say makes a great deal of sense. I do think there must be many people for whom going bankrupt would be a last resort. You can lose your house amd most of your possesions can't you? Those people at your work are really being foolish.

Grace

11-03-2004, 08:25 PM

Nope, you don't lose your house. You lose your bills and your good credit rating. And these guys don't even own houses anyway. They rent. So they don't care.

Luiza

11-03-2004, 08:30 PM

Hello everyone! I'm reconnected to the web world after a long absence. (Hopefully a few people still remember me...)

As a Canadian who has lived in US for a year (a year ago), I'd like to add my opinion on the subject. I have enjoyed my stay in US where I have had some good times and met some amazing people, but I'm certainly glad to be back in Canada. I hear all the time that Canada and US are not really that different. Perhaps that is true in most circumstances; however, we were going to stay in US so briefly we didn't get a car, so we took the public transportation and walked everywhere, same as we used to do in Canada. That really changed our perception. It is definitely better to be poor in Canada, and no matter how well off we'll be eventually (given that we have chosen professions that pay well), I doubt we'll ever forget our immigrant beginnings.

As for the health care issue, I was thrilled when I first went to the doctors in US (good doctors, recommended to us by people who have been going to them for many years and were glad to spread the word) and didn't have to worry when talking to them that the 15 minutes would be over and I'll have to rush out. However, the doctors turned out to be much to eager to prescribe medication, and the actual talk didn't transform into a better diagnosis. "Try these free samples of Allegra and see if it helps!" Hmmm, what about an allergy test first? Suffice to say that I have taken so much medication on the idea that the doctors have to know what they are up to, that I'm spending a lot of my time since my return to Canada trying to deal with the permanent consequences. Just last week, for example, I needed to be prescribed a stronger anitibiotic because I have somehow became resistent to amoxicillin. The last time I took amoxicillin was just before leaving Canada for US, and it worked fine then. I'll spare you the rest of the gory details -- I'll just mention that overall I have had much more effective treatment here than in US, no matter how much waiting and rushing I had to do, and at a much, much lower cost. Unfortunately, it is really not possible to make a clearcut decision on who has better health care. There are some things in US I would like to import, like the postal service (amazing!) but private health care is not one of them.

As to the philosophical differences between Canada and US, the best summation we heard was from a Canadian guy who was studying in US for a while and took us newcomers under his wing. He said that what we have to understand about US is that its citizens truly believe that only the strong survive, with all the corollaries; this is not a matter of good and bad, this is just the way it is. I don't know if this will ring a bell to anybody else, or if I'm the only one which found this statement helpful.

I'm not sure if this information would help anybody who will like to settle in Canada. Come over and see! There is certainly a country for everybody, and for myself I am glad to have found the one for me.

This was definitely an interesting day to return to the BB. I apologize for the long post.

PS For those interested in the philosophical differences between Canada and US, this book might make an interesting read: "Fire and Ice: The United States, Canada, and the Myth of Converging Values" by Michael Adams http://www.chapters.indigo.ca/item.asp?Item=978014301423&Catalog=Books&N=35&Lang=en&Section=books&zxac=1

badunnin

11-03-2004, 08:31 PM

Originally posted by Grace
Nope, you don't lose your house. You lose your bills and your good credit rating. And these guys don't even own houses anyway. They rent. So they don't care.

But with a bankruptcy on their record, they won't be owning a house for years and years and years.

I'm employed 60% at my school, which means I get 60% of a full-time salary, and 60% of my benefits. My 40% share is $400/month. For myself, no spouse or dependents. And it's not full coverage - it's basically PL/PD with a little bit of dental thrown in for kicks. I could almost live on my salary, but $400/month in this area is half a month's rent. It makes it a little tough - my medical ends up being almost 2 weeks pay. Just a perspective of someone who isn't making even $25k/year.

Grace

11-03-2004, 08:39 PM

Originally posted by badunnin

But with a bankruptcy on their record, they won't be owning a house for years and years and years.

That's not true either. As a mortgage broker, I have a handful of banks that will do new mortgages for people who are as little as 1 DAY out of bankruptcy, while most banks will do it for people 1 year out of bankruptcy. Granted, the rates aren't that great, but the programs are out there all over the place.

boisewinesnob

11-03-2004, 08:40 PM

Grace,
that guy (and the others too) who elect not to get insurance sure don't get any sympathy from me!! If they are able to afford the insurance, it is not very smart to think you are invincible (what is this guy, 14 :rolleyes: ?).
That said, I think he should still try to work something out with the hospital; I'm pretty sure they would be willing to work with him. Our hospital does a sliding fee type of thing with people who don't qualify for medicaid (for whatever reason). It is in the hospital's best interest, financially, to get at least something from the guy, rather than forcing him into bankruptcy. Then they will likely get nothing.
If it's not too late, Grace, maybe you could advise him to work with the financial/credit dept of his provider(s), if he isn't already.

PS: sorry for the hijack :o .

editing to add that I hear what you are saying, Bethany, on the outrageous premiums....especially if you are not full-time. If I were to work casual status (less than part-time) with my employer, my premiums would be about $800 a month (for full family coverage) and that is ridiculous. Fortunately, my employer offers assistance for medical coverage based on family size/income to people in that exact situation. I wish all employers did!

Gecko

11-03-2004, 08:53 PM

Originally posted by Grace
We have several employees who CHOOSE not to take the health insurance because they don't want to pay for it. Not because they can't afford it (I know how much they make), but because they think they don't need it. :rolleyes:

I believe Hawaii is one of the few states that actually mandates that all employers must provide health insurance for their staff. This is for anyone who works over 20 hours per week. It is individual coverage only, but you are able to make up the difference for family coverage. I find health insurance unbelieveably expensive here - over $900 per month for family coverage, and even then you are severely limited as to the care you receive. Considering we have 6 people in our family and we visit the doctor approximately 10 times per year total, the cost is outrageous. But you can't afford to be without it in the event of a catasprophe. I really feel that some people really abusive the system by going to see their PCP for the smallest illness. I have friends who will take their child in at the slighest sniffle. But what is the doctor going to do - if they are a smart one they will send them home and tell them to keep up the liquids and report any serious changes, others may prescribe medication which is going to do absolutely no good for the child but may make the parent feel better. All of this drives up the costs.

JJ40

11-04-2004, 05:20 AM

You know, we can debate until the cows come home on this issue... I think people clearly feel an alliance to one country or the other and we're not going to change their minds!

If you're seriously considering a move to Canada, it sounds like research is the key...one of the best things to do is talk to people who have lived in both countries, who can hopefully give you a fair representation of life on both sides of the border. And we Canucks can help you out in terms of giving you information on certain cities (I can't comment on Victoria/Vancouver, which sounds fabulous, but if you can handle the winters, Montreal is magnifique!)

honeygirl1971

11-04-2004, 06:34 AM

Originally posted by Sarah
I live in a city of 85 000 and cannot get a GP. If I am sick, I go to the walk in clinic. The closest thing I had to a GP was my ortho when I broke my wrist in January. The receptionist didn't bat an eye when I said every week that I was in for my checkup that I still didn't have a family doctor. It's the norm. It's not for lack of looking, there are just no open practices. I live an hour from Toronto. I don't really live in the sticks, but it's a fact that I'm not in the minority on not being able to find a family doctor.
I book with my dermatologist 6 months in advance and drive 2 hours for the appointment. I live in fear that she'll retire and I'll have no one to check my moles, 4 of which I've had removed from my scalp, where I really can't check them myself.
Now they're afraid here that with the new incentives to go into family medicine, no one will become a specialist :rolleyes: I need the specialist, but we could use lots more family practices!!!

I just wanted to add my perspective on the US healthcare system since everyone here seems to take it as a given that it's better and more available than what's in Canada. First, the financial part: I have a job and health insurance AND I live in a big city with some of the best medical facilities in the entire US. My employer only covers part of my health insurance, however, and I have to pay monthly premiums as well. I also have a high deductible, and the insurance does not cover a lot of standard diagnostic procedures. I receive a discount on prescription drugs, but still have to pay a portion of them, and so for non-generics this can be quite expensive. I do not have dental insurance and eyeglasses are not covered on my policy.

Second, the medical care: I see a nurse (in a clinic), whichever one is on call, and not a doctor for just about everything. In the past, when I've needed to see a specialist for a more serious problem, I've had to go to the clinic first, get a referral, and then make an appointment with the doctor. The average wait for an appt with that doctor is 3 months. Sometimes it's longer. When I go to see the doctor, I usually wait 2 hours or more in the waiting room, 45 minutes or more in the actual exam room in the paper gown, and then the doc sees me for 5 minutes. I'm not exaggerating. 5 minutes. For follow-up treatment and appointments, I have to go through the same process.

So IMO, yes, there are great facilities and services available in the U.S. to those who either have great insurance packages from their employers or who can afford very expensive private insurance. If you are covered by a terrible HMO, however, it looks a bit different.

syzygy

11-04-2004, 06:37 AM

Originally posted by Grace
We have several employees who CHOOSE not to take the health insurance because they don't want to pay for it. Not because they can't afford it (I know how much they make), but because they think they don't need it. :rolleyes:
Grace, do you know these people personally, and have they told you why they opted not to take insurance coverage?

If you don't, then I think it's pretty presumptuous of you to just decide that "they think they don't need it". What ever happened to "benefit of the doubt"? There could be any number of different reasons why a person might feel they can't afford insurance. Maybe he has college loans to pay off, or perhaps he's helping out family... maybe he weighed his options and figured he was healthy and not in any risk catagories so took a chance, and lost. But to just imply that he wants to milk the system and screw everyone else... :rolleyes:

Yes, I agree that there are people out there who do that, but please don't automatically ASSUME that's the case unless you have a little more knowledge and understanding of the situation.
What was that slogan? "COMPASSIONATE conservatism"??? :rolleyes: :p ;)

Grace

11-04-2004, 07:34 AM

I DO know these people WELL. When you work in an office of only 25 people, you know everyone pretty darn well. And as I said, I am the plan administrator and it is my job to explain the health insurance options to them, and get them signed up and if they decline, they have to sign something that says they decline. I try as hard as I can to talk them into taking the insurance and I ask them why they don't want it. They don't say because they want to "milk the system" - they're not looking at it like that for sure, but they really think they don't need it, that they are healthy enough, and they'd rather not spend the money on it. To me this is irresponsible. What makes them so special? Would you drive around with no car insurance because you think you're a great driver and that you won't ever hit anyone? And no, they don't have student loans. I don't think being young is any kind of insulation against something happening, nor is it an excuse to be irresponsible. This kid had that appendicitis, or he could get hit by a bus or just trip and fall while walking down the street. No insurance is irresponsible whether it's for yourself OR your car. Even when I only made $13,000 a year (imagine that take home pay check :rolleyes: ) I still made sure I had insurance. I'd work a second job bagging groceries or ANYTHING before I'd walk around with no insurance.

funnybone

11-04-2004, 08:09 AM

Originally posted by Grace
I'd work a second job bagging groceries or ANYTHING before I'd walk around with no insurance.

EXACTLY!

syzygy

11-04-2004, 09:18 AM

Well, we DO agree on something :D . I concur that it is irresponsible not to carry insurance. In fact, when my kids were too old to be covered under our policy but did not have health insurance offered by their employers, DH and I insisted that they carry private insurance until such time as they were able to pick up insurance through their employment. And it wasn't cheap, and they were also carrying student and car loans, but they did it. I'm just saying that we instilled those priorities into our kids because we felt it was important. But other people may feel other budget items need to take precedence. And you can't always make people take what you might feel is the better path. That's what living in a democracy is all about -- having choices. Yes, I know it means we have to subsidize his attack of appendicitius, but I firmly believe that "what goes around, comes around", and he will wind up subsidizing something that will benefit you or me.

CompassRose

11-04-2004, 10:09 AM

Not that, surely, we wouldn't be delighted if you all came on up.... (and though it did take me a while to find a doctor -- in over-crowded and under-doctored Southern Ontario -- once I did, I've not had a beef with our health-care system thus far) ... but here:
Ten Reasons Not to Move to Canada (http://www.commondreams.org/views04/1103-28.htm)

kima

11-04-2004, 10:15 AM

Reason number 10 is why I don't live in Ottawa!:D

JenniferJJ

11-04-2004, 11:12 AM

Almost two years ago, I was laid off. I knew that I needed to have insurance. Unfortunately, the COBRA was too expensive and I didn't know how I was going to do that. $280/month was just too much when my weekly unemployment check was $366. Someone at the COBRA office told me about a group conversion plan - I was able to pay ~$80/month with a $1000 deductible. That was manageable. True, I would have to pay a lot of out-of-pocket expenses until I reached $1000, but after five months of paying $80 v. the $280, I would have broken even. I couldn't see any big doctor visits in the next few months (I had just been to the cardiologist). And if anything HUGE happened (unlikely), well $1000 is better than most hospital bills. Just out of curiousity, I just looked on the MI BCBS website, and it looks like an individual can self-referral and get coverage for $174/each two months.

Grace's story reminds me of my cousin: She has never wanted to have a regular job, she just wanted to paint. Well, a lot of us don't have jobs that we LOVE, but we take them to be responsible. While ice skating, she hurt her back and now needs an operation. So she applied for Medicaid. It's just frustrating for me to make sure I have insurance, including continous coverage and now my taxes will finance her surgery and rehab. BTW, she is well educated and could have worked at many jobs that would have provided insurance. Also, she lives in the nice garage of her father's house in a rural area (her choice - have privacy) and is spending money to fix it up to be a nice apartment.

A few weeks ago I had poison oak so bad that my face was swollen to the point that I almost couldn't open my eyes. I had a neighbor drive me to the doctor. Two interesting things happened: They took me without my insurance card. I told them I'd bring it when I could see enough to drive. Also, they said the doctor had no time for me that day. I told them "Look at me! Does it look like I can wait?" They then advised me to go to the ER. I didn't think this was right - a more expensive cost for what could be/could be covered in the doctor's office. I told them I had a high deductible and could not do that. After that, they looked again and found time on the doctor's schedule. (I think they also talked to her.) She saw me within 45 minutes.

hlao23

11-04-2004, 12:42 PM

Originally posted by ClaraB
I think your post gets to the crux of the matter - it may not be so much an issue of what country you live in, but what community you live in.

I was going to say something similar. I live in WV in a University town. I was SHOCKED that WV went to Bush but I'm sure that being in this particular town colours my perception and blinds me somewhat to what is going on in other parts of the state. Our county went to Kerry...but that doesn't count for much.

syzygy

11-05-2004, 04:11 PM

DS sent this to me and I thought I'd pass it on...

http://www.polarismine.com/newcanada.gif

eas11

11-07-2004, 08:50 AM

Here's the Toronto Star's map from a current (very funny, IMHO) http://www.slate.com article:

http://members.shaw.ca/ianking/junk/usa.jpg

Head on over to the article and take the immigration test to see if you can actually make it as a Canadian :D

beckms

11-07-2004, 09:01 AM

My score was 67. The lowest pass score is 67. Yipes! By the skin of my teeth!:p

honeygirl1971

11-07-2004, 09:13 AM

I got an 83. Let's hope France sees things the same way. ;)

kirkbyky

11-07-2004, 09:53 AM

DH and I have long been discussing a move to Canada (8+ yrs), but I think the ideology change of the US is prompting us to get it in gear.

If you have any questions feel free to PM me. I have quite a bit of info specifically on Manitoba and some on Ontario if anyone is interested. Thanks also for the commentary on health care in Canada. As someone who spent 4 YEARS!! without health care during DH's grad program, I definitely appreciate the benefits we have here.

~~~

http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/index.html Official Canadian Immigration site, all info is here, downloadable forms etc.

http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/applications/guides/EG7TOC.html CIC Skilled Worker application for Permanent Residence.

http://www.canadacoffeeclub.com/index.html A South African woman�s experience immigrating to Canada; tips, links, etc.

http://indigirl.com/immigration.html American Woman who moved to Canada to be with her partner.

http://www.icomm.ca/emily/immig.html An American woman who moved to Canada; good links particularly the David Cohen forum link.

http://www.canadavisa.com/ David Cohen�s site. Good info, tho� I don�t think you�ll need a lawyer.

http://workdestinations.org/index.jsp A guide to work and relocation in Canada.

http://www.mls.ca/map.aspx Canadian real estate multiple listing service.

http://www.aucc.ca/index_e.html Assn of Univ and Colleges of Canada.

http://www.expatriates.com/ Small job/house classifieds section.

http://www.aca.ch/acanews.htm American Citizens Abroad website.

http://www.canadacareernetwork.com/ Job stuff.

www.canadianculture.com �Imagine all Canadians working together to make a difference for their own country ... that is what we do here." Interesting site.

http://www.craigmarlatt.com/canada/index.html#home Canada info�you probably know loads of this stuff already.

~~~~

Kyle

oceanjasper

11-07-2004, 04:13 PM

Kima, I thought of you when I just got this e-mail (joke) from a friend. :D

A curious woman died one day and found herself waiting in the long line of judgment. As she stood there she noticed that some souls were allowed to march right through the pearly gates into heaven. Others, though, were led over to Satan who threw them into the burning pit. But every so often, instead of hurling a poor soul into the fire, Satan would toss a soul off to one side into a small pile.

After watching Satan do this several times, the woman's curiosity got the best of her. So she strolled over and asked Satan what he was doing.

"Excuse me, Prince of Darkness," she said. "I'm waiting in line for judgment, but I couldn't help wondering, why are you tossing those people aside instead of flinging them into the fires of hell with the others?"

"Ah, those..." Satan said with a groan.

"They're all from Vancouver Island, they're too wet to burn!"

kima

11-07-2004, 06:04 PM

Good one oceanjasper!!!

We do get half the rain of other places in the PNW here in jolly old Victoria but I guess we would be too wet too! I'll take comfort in that!:D

oceanjasper

11-07-2004, 06:55 PM

No fair! Yesterday, we had 39mm of rain and you only had 4.8mm. I'm afraid to say that you would burn much faster than me. :D

kima

11-07-2004, 07:53 PM

Originally posted by oceanjasper
No fair! Yesterday, we had 39mm of rain and you only had 4.8mm. I'm afraid to say that you would burn much faster than me. :D

And for many more reason too!:eek: :( Wow you got alot of rain!)
I can't believe how many times I see Vancouver on TV with rain pouring down while we are in sunshine. Even whem driving the Malahat the rains stops when you get to Victoria.
But you know I love Courtenay and Comox!:) :)

kristalsnow7

11-08-2004, 09:24 AM

Originally posted by syzygy
DS sent this to me and I thought I'd pass it on...

http://www.polarismine.com/newcanada.gif

Just to clarify: the state I live in, Illinois, should not be part of the red side! It is considered one of the "safely blue" states by the Democratic party. ;)

Grace

11-08-2004, 09:30 AM

Kristal -

I looked closely at the map too when I first saw it and thought the same thing - but I think the red line border is just below Chicago - it goes underneath the bottom of Lake Michigan. So Chicago I think is included in "New Canada" :D But Illinois as a whole does not vote a majority Democratic - since there are more people in the Chicago area (which does vote Democratic), we outweigh the entire rest of the state up here. Illinois posted 2,840,113 votes for Kerry and 2,330,406 for Bush. Percentage-wise, that's 55% Kerry, 45% Bush. But I would venture to guess that Chicago itself was more like 80/20 or something (just my own guess).

kristalsnow7

11-08-2004, 09:38 AM

Originally posted by Grace
Kristal -

I looked closely at the map too when I first saw it and thought the same thing - but I think the red line border is just below Chicago - it goes underneath the bottom of Lake Michigan. So Chicago I think is included in "New Canada" :D But Illinois as a whole does not vote a majority Democratic - since there are more people in the Chicago area (which does vote Democratic), we outweigh the entire rest of the state up here. Illinois posted 2,840,113 votes for Kerry and 2,330,406 for Bush. Percentage-wise, that's 55% Kerry, 45% Bush. But I would venture to guess that Chicago itself was more like 80/20 or something (just my own guess).

Ah, maybe that is what it means. I just checked the election results for Cook County, and Kerry took 70% of the vote while Bush took 29%, so your guess was a pretty good one! ;)

honeygirl1971

11-08-2004, 09:48 AM

Illinois is still considered a "blue" state on every map I've seen. None of the other states are divided by city or county on this joke map or on any of the actual electoral maps...

hollysmom

11-09-2004, 04:15 PM

This was too funny ...

If Canada's never sounded so good, this one's for you
Unpack the bag: Country is not all it's cracked up to be
By ALEX BEAM - Boston Globe

You have probably heard the idle chatter: "I'm thinking of moving to Canada." You may have received the JPEG Sent 'Round the World, labeling the northern part of North America � the right-thinking part, as liberals would have it � as the United States of Canada, and the pro-Bush leaning "red" U.S. states as Jesusland.

It sounds so alluring. Good beer. Cheap Viagra. Hardly any crime. Friendly, if somewhat ineffectual, people. Terrific, if underappreciated, novelists. (This means you, Rohinton Mistry.) Secure borders, courtesy of the U.S. Department of Defense.

But before you pack, consider this: There are plenty of reasons not to move to Canada. Let me count the ways.

1. They don't really want you. Canada is full of losers like you. If you're really rich, or a brain surgeon, maybe. But if you are, say, a newspaper reporter, be prepared to wait at least a year just to live there legally, and several more years to become a citizen.

If you have some special qualifications, like a Ph.D., plus a lot of work experience, and if you are under 50, you have a better chance of crashing the gates of Snow Mexico. Or if you're loaded. That's right. If you have a net worth of $800,000 Canadian or more, and are willing to invest $400,000 of it in Canada, come on in! And you thought George Bush's America was a plutocracy. ... Think again.

2. Speaking of brain surgery � have you tried Buffalo? Here is what John Kerry didn't tell you: The problem with free, single-payer health care is that you get what you pay for.

Even the Canadians acknowledge that their health system is in crisis. (Sound familiar?) They speak about the inequities of their two-tiered system, where publicly funded patients wait weeks, if not months, to consult specialists or have routine surgery, while private patients get quick service. In fact, it's a three-tiered system. The very well-to-do travel to the United States for some procedures.

We refer you to a recent editorial in The Windsor (Ontario) Star: "A growing number of sick and tired Canadians are beginning to look to the U.S. for ideas on how to improve our failing health-care system. But Kerry, inexplicably, is looking north for health care ideas."

3. Parlez-vous francais? Somehow I doubt it. And yet if you want to work for the Canadian government � the country's largest employer � chances are that you have to be bilingual. And the private sector is following suit. C'est dur, eh?

4. How do you like your free speech � well chilled? Canada has no First Amendment and adheres to primitive British-style libel laws.

Here is a hilarious definition of defamation a la Canadienne, from the Media Libel Web site: "A defamatory statement exists if the publication tends to lower the plaintiff's reputation in the estimation of those who are commonly referred to as 'right thinking' members of society." Allow me to reiterate my widely known position: Celine Dion is the greatest singer who ever lived.

Just this year, the Canadian Parliament passed what the religious right has branded a "Chill Bill," or "The Bible as Hate Speech Bill," effectively preventing churches from using the Bible to preach against homosexuality. "With the passage of Bill C-250, Canada has now embarked upon a course of criminalization of dissent," according to a statement released this spring by the Catholic Civil Rights League.

Fine, you say. Enough gay-bashing by Bible-waving Christian loonies. But remember John Ashcroft's motto: Your rights are next.

5. It's the black hole of sports fandom. You would seriously consider leaving the home of North America's greatest baseball team � ever � and of North America's greatest football team, for ... what? Canadian football is played on a field that's too long (that's why each team has 12 players), and there are only three downs. Huh?

Fifty percent of Canada's Major League Baseball infrastructure � les Montrial Expos just decamped for Washington, D.C., because of audience indifference. Canada's one great sports treasure, professional hockey, isn't being played this year. You hadn't noticed?

And you can't even name its national sport, can you? What if that question is on the citizenship application?

6. Have you heard the joke about the Canadian dollar? Not lately. Without putting too fine a point on this, Canadian currency has been laying a Euro-style smackdown on the U.S. greenback. What this means to you: less purchasing power.

Wait, there's more. You think you're living in a high-tax state right now? Hahahahahaha.

7. The biggest argument against immigrating to Canada is: You're going in the wrong direction! With all due respect to our northern neighbors, anyone who is anyone bolted years ago.

Peter Jennings, Mike Myers, Joni Mitchell, Jim Carrey, Frank Gehry (would they take him back?) � the list goes on and on. Have talent, will travel � southward. You might want to ask yourself why.

So please, think twice. They don't want you, and we would prefer that you stay. If the new administration is a problem, just don't turn on your television for the next four years.

SSM

Natasha

11-09-2004, 04:46 PM

Oh, my.

I didn't find Mr. Beam too funny, but hey, he's entitled to say his piece. After all, even in Canada, we do have some free speech protection, despite what he thinks ;) Section 2 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, anyone? Also, look at what we do to our own politicians on shows like Air Farce and Monday Report - that's freedom of speech, no? :D I am guessing the article is tongue-in-cheek, which is cool, but I do hope nobody reads it and thinks it's pretty accurate.

I'd do up a top 10 list of reasons TO move to Canada, but most of the folks on this thread would already agree with some/most of them, so I won't bother to preach to the converted/almost converted/potentially converted :p ;)

Anyhow... I'm off for a run on a cool, beautiful night in Ontario!

Natasha (who is obviously not anyone who is anyone 'cause I'm still living in Canada :D)

kirkbyky

11-09-2004, 05:23 PM

Lacrosse? Please correct me if I'm wrong! I want to get it right on that immigration test!! :p

I still think that I'd like to live amongst 'losers' in a 'hardly any crime' nation filled with good beer, hockey and friendly people. I've long wanted to live in Canada because whenever I've crossed that border, I feel like I've come home.

About those secure borders? What secure borders? Not if you listen to Tom Ridge tell it.

Do you know that the US and South Africa are the only two 'industrialized' nations to NOT have a national health plan? It's interesting that Canada's health care system is continually brought up as some shoddy piece of work. I do believe it DOES need work, but for the US to continually slam it, is a bit 'the pot calling the kettle black'. Our health care system is a privatized bureaucracy vs a govt run bureaucracy, but full of red tape none the less. My parents have eternal re-imbursement problems for my sisters care, DH and I have to wait to see anyone besides our GP and our persciptions aren't free--this despite my husband working for the State of MI, where we get 'excellent' benefits.:rolleyes:

I don't mind waiting a year (actually its more like 18mos to 2yrs) for permanent residency. It gives me a chance to scout places to live, jobs (you get in faster if you have one lined up--no millioniare status necessary) and take those french lessons. I think that I'll grump about the 3 yrs of not being able to vote until you can apply for citizenship.

See Natasha--I can preach for myself!;) :p Although, I wouldn't mind seeing a top 10 list...

Kyle

badunnin

11-09-2004, 05:29 PM

Originally posted by kirkbyky
I've long wanted to live in Canada because whenever I've crossed that border, I feel like I've come home.

Ditto ditto ditto that. I feel the same way. I absolutely can't explain it - it just is.

Grace

11-09-2004, 06:25 PM

I don't think there is anything wrong with wanting to live somewhere else. My folks moved here from Germany, and they're very, very happy here. And I have always felt very "at home" in Germany when I go there to visit, although honestly, I've never had the desire to actually move there. But I understand the feeling of being at home somewhere that isn't really home very well. I've been to Mexico and Canada and a lot of other places that I liked visiting very much, but didn't get that same "at home/very comfortable" feeling at all.

There is no perfect country on the planet where everything is complete Utopia. It just doesn't exist. So you go to the place (if you can) where you feel the most comfortable and happy, and work to make things better wherever that is.

kima

11-09-2004, 06:30 PM

I think there are some truths in that piece as well as huge errors but then we up here make mistakes and assumptions about other countries (especially our neighbour) all the time so I won't comment on every point.
I did laugh at the "primitive" libel laws modelled after Britain's. I don't thnik British law is all that primitive.:rolleyes:

Again the tax thing throws me as well. If you factor in health insurance costs etc. I don't think Americans pay that much less in taxes than we do.
Oh well- Canada definately feels like home to me, I can feel the difference when I cross back from the US and yet have no words to describe the diference. Gentler, slower? I can't put my finger on it. Not better, just different and more comfortable for me.:)

funnybone

11-10-2004, 07:38 AM

Originally posted by kima
Gentler, slower? I can't put my finger on it. Not better, just different and more comfortable for me.:)

Obviously you haven't spent much time in the Toronto area. ;)

CompassRose

11-10-2004, 08:01 AM

Or Montr�al or Le 'Ull. ;) The streets, thereof, at any rate.

Kayaksoup

11-10-2004, 08:59 AM

Its Victoria, Maureen. I feel that way every time I cross the Strait Of Georgia.

As to the article, very tongue in cheek, I think. With glaring innacuracies. Two-tier health system??? Not legally.

ChristieinMB

11-10-2004, 09:16 AM

I must be in the minority in this country. I like my healthcare plan now, I want to choose my doctors and hospital. I do not want to wait for an appointment to see a dr. I have Blue Cross, I have many drs to choose from that accept my plan. I love Canada, especially Toronto but I have no desire to leave the USofA. I think Canada feels at home because it is so similiar. I lived in Mexico for four years, now that is different, but when I lived there it felt like home, because it was my home. BTW, I went to the dr there twice, after that I flew back to the US for my dr apointments.

beejayw1

11-10-2004, 02:09 PM

Originally posted by JJ40
It saddens me that the US is so divided.

(Sticking my head in briefly to see what gives and stumbled across this thread.)

Oh, my. You should have seen the Lincoln/Douglas race in 1860. Or the 1944 election where Roosevelt ran for the third term. For that matter, the first several elections where the candidate with the most votes was president and the runner-up was vice president. :rolleyes:

Elections are divisive. Heck, read Dickens' account of the election in Market Snodgrass in The Pickwick Papers. Some other countries ae really divided.

As for the poor ol' U.S., we'll be fine. We always are.

And now, on a lighter note, some photos of my little guy, Angel and his buddy Indy:

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid138/p48403814b39e0173c022bfa94f059c81/f72265b6.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid139/p4986aa7b5264746813ceecc0cedbb193/f70fd183.jpg

Grace

11-10-2004, 02:20 PM

Originally posted by ChristieinMB
I must be in the minority in this country. I like my healthcare plan now, I want to choose my doctors and hospital. I do not want to wait for an appointment to see a dr. I have Blue Cross, I have many drs to choose from that accept my plan.

If you're in the minority (and I don't think you are), then I'm right there with you. I like my healthcare plan now too. I've had some wonderful doctors who really, really have taken care of me. And I had about $150,000 in medical bills last year, of which I had to pay ZERO dollars. Zero. Not even so much as a co-pay. I spent 8 days in the hospital, had 4 surgeries, three different doctors working on me and tons of follow up care (at the doctor's office every second or third day to check my tubes, etc.). Not to mention all the outpatient testing I've had done in the last year and a half (CT scans, IVP, colonoscopy and on and on). And I didn't have to wait for anything. Speaking of that..... Just two months ago, when this abdominal pain I was having was becoming too much for me, I went to the gastroenterologist. He "knew" right away what was wrong, but I was doubtful that his diagnosis was so simple and easily fixed. I was convinced that it was something worse (I thought it was something awful that was going to need more surgery). He didn't think I needed a colonoscopy, but wanted to do one just to be 100% sure. He was booked up in his office (where he does most of his colonoscopies) for over a month, but he saw how worried and fearful I was, and scheduled me for one within just a few days to be done in the adjacent hospital's facility. He squeezed me in not because he was worried that there was something seriously wrong that couldn't wait, but so I didn't have to spend another month worrying! And it turned out his original diagnosis was 100% right and my fears were allayed (and my pains are fixed with some simple meds). But he didn't have to do that at all. I was so grateful though.