Have I been making cookies the wrong way?

[steady]

I always melt the butter called for in cookie recipes (I'm not too advanced . . . I'm talking about your run of the mill, tollhouse chocolate cookie, or similar mainstream cookies.)

Anyway, I melt the butter in the microwave before mixing with sugar.

Now I've been watching these cookie shows on food network and they seem to use the entire stick right out of the refrigerator! That would seem to make it very hard on my cheaper than usual mixer (hand-held--waiting and wanting to buy a kitchenaid).

What's correct? Do you melt the butter or use it straight from the frig?

I'm very good at very green newbie cooking questions. :) Sorry if this is old hat and silly to the more evolved cooks on this board.

[rhondac]

You take the margarine/butter out of the fridge an hour before you start mixing - or pop it in the micro a few seconds to soften - not melt. The melting causes the consistency of the cookie to be quite a bit different than if you don't.

[JanetJ]

I usually take the butter out of the fridge and soften it in the microwave for a few seconds before mixing. I don't melt the butter completely unless the recipe specifically calls for it that way.

[claire797]

Steady, I have a few excellent recipes that call for melted butter and/or melted shortening. In some cases, it makes the cookies better. But for the most part, recipes calling for butter mean softened butter -- not melted.

But I wouldn't say you are doing anything wrong. When I was first learning to bake I melted the butter too. It just seemed like the right thing to do for some reason ;). But that was about 25 years ago :).

[funnybone]

If the cookies taste good in the end, then I guess your way works too. I don't melt though, unless specific to the recipe.

[Little Bit]

If you haven't checked out Alton Brown's chocolate chip cookie recipes, it might be a good idea.

The differences between them will give you a pretty good idea of the subtle changes which can occur when you modify the way you handle the ingredients in a recipe, or slightly alter the balance of ingredients. Melting the butter is part of 'The Chewy' recipe, FWIW.

You're not doing anything 'wrong.' If you think the cookies have turned out well, and you enjoy them, you've done it quite 'right', no matter what they look or taste like to anyone else. :)

The Thin (http://www.foodnetwork.com/food/recipes/recipe/0,,FOOD_9936_13615,00.html)


The Puffy (http://www.foodnetwork.com/food/recipes/recipe/0,1977,FOOD_9936_13616,00.html)




The Chewy (http://www.foodnetwork.com/food/recipes/recipe/0,1977,FOOD_9936_13617,00.html)

[steady]

Thanks everyone.

Gosh, everything requires that I do stuff way in advance!! (one hour out of the fridge before I even start . . . you've got to be kidding me!! :( )

Anyway, I should have said, my favorite cookies ("Pecan Supremes" by Mrs. Fields--basically chocolate chip cookies with oats and pecans)usually taste good, but they sometimes tend to be crumblier than I would like. I thought maybe that was caused by melting butter. For a while I thought it was caused by over-mixing (still might be the culprit). I haven't made them in a while, since trying to eat healthier, but I'm about to do some holiday baking, so I'm trying to straighten this out! :)

By the way, thanks for the link to Alton's recipe . . . I do prefer chewy cookies, so maybe I sometimes over-mix.

Thanks again everyone!

[steady]

just to clarify, in case anyone has encountered this problem, what I mean by "crumbly" is that the cookies sometimes literally fall apart as you are eating them. Like the cookies itself will not stay in one piece! Still delicious, but not ideal (particularly b/c considering giving some as gifts)!

Anyone have that problem? Is that what happens when you over-mix the dry & wet ingredients, or is it the melted butter, or some other culprit?

The mystery continues . . . I guess I'll just have to try making it different ways and see what works! I have lots of time to experiment between now and Christmas!

[CompassRose]

Probably not over-mixing -- if anything, that tends to make cookies either tough/rock hard, or chewy.

Most "crumbly" cookies are high-ratio cookies -- shortbread types, with a LOT of butter/fat, proportionately, in them. The fat coats the little flour bits and keeps them from sticking together with gluten strands. It might be this particular recipe, more than the melting butter.

Incidentally, when I'm in my Cookie Baking Mode, a couple of boxes of butter sit out on a corner of my counter in a bag 24/7. Butter left out for a few days doesn't go bad, and unless your kitchen is very warm, it will be just perfect mixing consistency!

Another option is to coarsely grate the butter with a cheese grater; if you do that, cold-from-the-fridge butter will be ready to go by the time you've measured out your other schtuff.

I read in some consumer-reviews article (about mixers) that more people burn out their hand mixers trying to mix doughs with butter that's too cold than any other way.

[steady]

Rose, that would be a bummer, because I really like this recipe. I don't think it always turns out that way, but I really can't remember exactly. Seems like when I first cooked they were perfect, but last few batches weren't. But, maybe I just didn't notice in the beginning b/c your explanation makes a lot of sense.

Great idea on the butter.

Thankfully I am going to try a few other recipes that I was given on this board, along with one batch of my favorite recipe, and see what turns out good.

I really like the combo of chocolate chips, oats and pecans. But there is a LOT of butter in those darn things! Nevermind the problem with calories . . . I don't even want to think about THAT problem, which is far worse than the cookies falling apart in the final analysis.

:D

[CompassRose]

Have you changed ovens? Or is your oven old (and therefore no longer accurate)? Could be the cookies are dryer because they're getting over-baked. You might want to do a test batch and bake them just a couple minutes less than you have been. (And/or invest in an oven thermometer.)

[blazedog]

You've gotten a number of good responses -- melted butter will significantly alter the end product as will the use of butter when a recipe calls for shortening or vice versa.

Alton and other food scientists provide very good explanations of how butter/shortening interacts with other ingredients as they are heated and the glutens/proteins bind to provide the various end results - crispy, chewy, crumbly, flakey etc.

Baking is much more about chemistry than most other types of cooking and unless you really know what you are doing, any deviation from the recipe will not produce the optimum result.

The act of creaming softened butter with sugar is a very important step in most cookies and cakes. Most cooks underbeat at this stage which is why a handmixer is pretty inadequate for baking unless you've got the endurance of a saint and don't want to be doing anything else while mixing.

Of course, baked sugar, butter, nuts and eggs is probably going to taste all right but that doesn't mean it wil provide the intended result -- I've done recipes with melted butter when called for and the results are delicious but they generally are of a certain type -- brownies, lace cookies etc.

[MNGirlTX]

There is a butter...I think it's Land O Lakes...called "Butter for Baking" and even though it's cold, it's "softened". You might consider using that, then you don't have to worry about taking it out of the fridge an hour before hand.

I bought it and used it last night. I haven't tasted the results, yet, as I made a dessert for my supper club tonight, but I used it right out of the fridge and it did, indeed, seem pretty soft.

Lori

[Aubergine]

steady, don't apologize or feel bad. we all had to ask questions as we learned new things. i've been cooking for over 30 years and i'm still learning.

although i primarily use butter, let us not forget that there are times - and recipes - when shortening is desireable. i always keep a bunch of the Crisco butter-flavored shortening sticks on hand.

i'm with Compass Rose, i just let the butter sit out until i can use it, especially in the winter. in the summer i'll leave it in the fridge but then put it on a sunny window sill for a short while. softening by nuking for about 20 seconds is the next best alternative, IMHO.

lol, remember when ovens had pilot lights in the middle of the rangetop? that's how my mother always used to soften her butter quickly.

[claire797]

Steady, since you mentioned you like the combo or chocolate chips, oats and pecans, here's a recipe I love that uses melted butter and all of those things! Hope you like it. These cookies are very large and puffy, but not cakey at all.

Giant Chocolate Chunk Cookies

1/2 cup pecan pieces
1/2 cup rolled oats
1/2 cup butter -- melted and slightly
cooled (about 5 minutes)
1/2 cup brown sugar
1/2 cup white sugar
1 egg
1 teaspoon vanilla extract
1 1/2 cups bread flour
1/2 teaspoon baking powder
1/2 teaspoon baking soda
1/8 teaspoon cinnamon
1/2 teaspoon salt
1 6 oz bar dark chocolate, cut into chunks.

Preheat oven to 350 degrees F.
Spread pecan pieces over half of a large cookie sheet. Spread oats over other half of cookie sheet. Bake pecans and oats for 8-10 minutes or until pecans are aromatic and toasted. Remove from oven and let cool.

In a medium bowl, stir (by hand) melted butter, brown sugar and white sugar until smooth. Stir in the egg and vanilla, being careful not to over-beat.

Mix together the bread flour, baking powder, baking soda, cinnamon and salt and stir into sugar mixture. Stir toasted oats and pecans. Stir in chocolate chunks

Using a packed quarter cup measure, shape dough into balls and place on a dish. Refrigerate shaped dough balls for at least 3 hours or freeze until ready to cook.

Preheat oven to 350 degrees F. Line a cookie sheet with parchment and place thoroughly chilled dough balls about 3 inches apart on cookie sheet.

Bake cookies for 15 minutes, covering loosely with sheet of foil after first 10 minutes to prevent over browning. Remove from baking sheets to cool on wire racks. Let cool completely

Makes about 10 huge cookies

[valchemist]

Originally posted by claire797
Steady, since you mentioned you like the combo or chocolate chips, oats and pecans, here's a recipe I love that uses melted butter and all of those things! Hope you like it. These cookies are very large and puffy, but not cakey at all.

Giant Chocolate Chunk Cookies


I have made these before and they are one of the best chocolate chip cookies I have ever had. (and I have made well over 100 different chcocolate chip cookie reicpes.)

[sherri]

Anna,
Those cookies sound really good, but I am curious about the use of bread flour?? I have never seen a cookie recipe with bread flour before. I often interchange different flours in cookie recipes, but am just curious about the bread flour.
Thanks!

[steady]

Gosh, thanks to everyone. I hope I soon learn some screen names b/c I have trouble remember who told me what!

Anyway, those cookies look great! I'm definitely going to try them. They look delicious.

Also thanks for the other great ideas. I am using a different oven (older), but I do have a metal thermometer. I'll also experiment with the softened butter now that I know how to do this thing the right way!

Now, my only question is: when the cookies call for "butter," but do not specify salted or unsalted, which do you use? Food network last night (skinny pretty italian cook--can't remember her name) said use unsalted for whatever kind of cookie she was making (but she didn't specify about other cookies), but a few of my cookie recipes actually specify salted (including the one that caused me to start this thread). So, I'm just wondering about recipes, particularly chocolate chip, where they don't specify. What do you guys think?

Thanks to everyone!

[blazedog]

The default for butter is unsalted -- if the recipe says salted, then use salted but if just butter is specified, then use unsalted.

Regarding the bread flour recipe, this is remarkably like Alton's chocolate chip cookie recipe which uses melted butter and bread flour and is quite delicious.

[valchemist]

I use salted all the time whether the recipe calls for it or not. I like the taste. Always works for me.

Anna created that recipe based on Alton Brown's recipe and another recipe. I have actually tried the recipe with bread flour and with all-purpose flour. They are good both ways, but there was a difference and the ones with bread flour had a better texture.

[HealthyinMN]

Originally posted by valchemist
I use salted all the time whether the recipe calls for it or not. I like the taste. Always works for me.


Same here - they never seem "too salty"

[Arete]

Steady -- I just had a thought about why your cookies may sometimes come out crumbly. When you measure the flour, do you "fluff" it first by stirring it, then gently scoop or spoon it into the measuring cup, and then level it off? If you are not stirring it first, you are probably getting a lot more flour than the recipe intends. Flour settles a lot when it sits, and needs to be aerated before use. This is why many chefs say that weight is the only good way to measure flour.

[Aubergine]

steady, keep the questions coming. i don't know about others, but i find it immensely rewarding to pass on what i've learned to younger cooks. i'm also gratified that there are still some young persons who want to learn to cook and not live on take-out, convenience, pre-made, etc. ---->stepping down from soapbox.

i use unsalted unless the recipe specifies otherwise. i only began doing this a few years ago, after i learned the reason why unsalted is a better choice in many baking recipes. this has to do with salted butter having a higher water content than unsalted (which still has some water); this ultimately has an effect on the finished product. i'm guessing this would affect pastries and cookies far more than bars, cakes, etc. in France, home to the world's most divine pastries and baked goods, sweet butter is the norm.

if anyone would like more info, i'll get out my Shirley Corriher "Cookwise" and another couple of books that persuaded me.

[Beth]

Bread flour has a lower protein and gluten content, making it less likely to toughen up when mixing or more difficult to over mix the dough. I have seen it specified in other cookies and could probably be used in many cookies just fine.

I have also read that one of the reasons for preferring unsalted butter in baking and cooking is that the butter tends to be of a higher quality. They say that the salt can mask a slightly inferior product.

[valchemist]

I have read those things about butter (water content and inferior quality). I have also read that those things were true years ago or that they are still true in other countries, but now, in the US, the only difference between salted and unsalted butter is the salt.

[claire797]

Maybe it depends on where you buy your butter or how long you store it, but I use salted butter (knowing full well what Shirley Corriher et al recommend) and turn out good cookies. We keep salted butter around the house, so that's what I use. However, given all the reading I've done over the past few years, I've bought many a box of unsalted butter to be used for baking only. The things I baked with unsalted just weren't as good.

Now if you really want to impress people with the butter in your cookies, buy the clarified Plugra from Williams Sonoma ;). Or just buy plain old Plugra. You won't have to worry about freshness issues at all.

[blazedog]

I don't profess to be a baking expert but I've never read any recommendation to use anything but unsalted and that is from experts dealing with modern products -- i.e. Alton, Cook's Illustrated, Joy of Cooking (most modern edition).

I use unsalted butter and use the quantity of salt specified in the recipe -- usually a token amount such as 1/4 teaspoon. I follow baking instructions exactly as written because they are such a specific chemical interaction.

I only buy unsalted butter anyway as I think there is too much salt in diets anyway -- not that I use butter much anyway unless I am baking:D But in terms of everything else I cook, I generally find that I don't use salt and use other herbs, spices and flavorings which are healthier to add flavor. After years of cooking this way, I realize that my tastes have probably changed -- I can't remember the last time I actually added salt at the table to food served at a restaurant, friend or prepared by me.

[Arete]

Originally posted by Beth
Bread flour has a lower protein and gluten content, making it less likely to toughen up when mixing or more difficult to over mix the dough. I have seen it specified in other cookies and could probably be used in many cookies just fine.


I think you are thinking of cake flour, which has a lower protein content. Bread flour has a higher protein content which promotes the formation of gluten for good crust formation and a chewy texture.

[blazedog]

Originally posted by Arete


I think you are thinking of cake flour, which has a lower protein content. Bread flour has a higher protein content which promotes the formation of gluten for good crust formation and a chewy texture.

Arete is correct as the Alton cookies made with bread flour and melted butter are crispy as I recall -- quite delicious in any event.

Conversely, I made Martha Stewart's sugar cookies for Thanksgiving which used cake flour. I believe this contributed to the wonderful texture as rolled cookies can toughen as the gluten and butter is assaulted when one has to re-roll the dough for additional cut-outs. I am not a whiz at rolling or cutting so invariably my cookie dough gets rolled more than the twice which is generally recommended for optimum texture.

[Beth]

You are absolutely correct about the bread flour. It would rpovide more structure, not less. Never trust a sick woman to get her facts straight. ;) :o

[sherri]

Thanks for the info on flours, I will have to try the bread flour cookies.

[Kayaksoup]

Originally posted by claire797
Maybe it depends on where you buy your butter or how long you store it, but I use salted butter (knowing full well what Shirley Corriher et al recommend) and turn out good cookies. We keep salted butter around the house, so that's what I use. However, given all the reading I've done over the past few years, I've bought many a box of unsalted butter to be used for baking only. The things I baked with unsalted just weren't as good.


I am with you here. If a recipe specifies unsalted, I will usually use it. If it doesn't, salted goes in. And I may not be an expert (yet), but I turn out really good cookies and other baked goods. (No false modesty here).:D ;)

[blazedog]

Out of curiousity, I started checking my cookie recipes (I've been researching for weeks as I've decided to go all out this year).

All of the recipes I've double checked specify UNSALTED -- there could be others which specifically state salted. I haven't come across any yet which specify salted. My older inherited cookbooks don't specify as I think they assume cooks would know this without it being spelled out.

I don't improvise when baking as I don't consider myself a food chemist and recipes for baked goods are a a type of chemical formula. If you want to deviate go for it but I think that for baking (as is true for most things) the best way to learn is to do it properly in the beginning so you know what the ideal result is -- you can't play jazz well unless you know music:D

[Arete]

Originally posted by Beth
You are absolutely correct about the bread flour. It would rpovide more structure, not less. Never trust a sick woman to get her facts straight. ;) :o
I seemed to recall you mentioning in another thread that you have a sinus infection -- if that's the case, my hat is off to you for being able to type at all! I think a sinus infection is one of the most painful things to endure! I hope you feel better soon. :D