healthy food is expensive!

[Mbart]

I have been reading this BB for a couple weeks now and am almost frighteningly hooked! It is so much fun to read all of your tips, recipes, etc.!!

Just wondering if anyone has found that buying the "right" healthy foods has impacted your grocery bills. Since starting to improve my family's eating habits (thanks in part to the great advice written about here!), I have found that between all of the fresh produce and the specialty soy/tofu items, my grocery bills have gone up! Don't get me wrong...I do believe our health is well worth it, but I was surprised to find this happening...

Any tips you could offer? I'm still shopping at my regular grocery store...should I be switching to a natural foods or health store for certain items? Should I start a garden this spring? (I'm a black thumb so this idea really scares me!) Or should I just chock it up to "better food is worth the price!"

[lorilei]

Buying organic has been the biggest expense for me -- between organic produce and meat without antibiotics I've already exceeded my prior grocery bill altogether. A second factor which has escalated my grocery bills is buying high-quality cheeses and wine(which is purely preference and has little to do with health).

I do find, however, that cooking at home (and doing most cooking from scratch) is more economical and more gratifying than eating "easy pleasy" foods. Sure, we still enjoy a night out at a good restaurant -- but we also enjoy our time together at home eating high-flavor foods http://www.cookinglight.com/bbs/smile.gif

Gardening has been a great investment (though it seems it cost me MORE money than it was worth the first year or two). Supplies (to cultivate optimal soil) and plants can be expensive. But again, gardening is gratifying and there is NOTHING like a freshly picked tomato, warmed by the sun http://www.cookinglight.com/bbs/wink.gif

[This message has been edited by lorilei (edited 04-09-2001).]

[cindyluwho]

I don't think it has to be expensive...if you try to eat produce that is in season, that helps alot in terms of cost and the stuff that's in season tastes better anyway. Sometimes local farmer's markets have good produce that is reasonably priced. I also noticed at one point that I tended to let a lot of food go to waste, so now I try to make sure I eat whatever I buy, which means being a bit more thoughtful as I browse the grocery aisles (not buying more than I can eat just because it looks good) and not just tossing something out because I'm feeling bored of it. I tend to have a bit of a gourmet taste, but for the sake of economizing, I try to limit my purchases of such things as porcini mushrooms and $12 a pound imported cheeses, though I do splurge sometimes. I also often cook a big pot of something once or twice a week and eat that for several days in a row, which allows me to buy food in larger packages. I almost never buy "convenience" foods or pre-packaged foods like yogurt in individual sized containers and the like, which are usually really expensive. I also make my own bread, and just got a cheese-making kit. By being very careful of what I buy and not wasting food, I am able to spend only $75-100 a month on food and I think I eat very well (though I am ovo-lacto vegetarian so I probably save some money by not buying any meat). I *wish* I had a garden! There are some wonderful things you can grow! I agree with lorilei that there is nothing quite like a freshly picked tomato! Brandywine heirloom tomatoes are the best!

[RunnerKim]

One big money saver is to buy your spices from the bulk bins (from the health food store). Not only is it considerably cheaper, but you can get just what you need. This also allows you to use fresher spices.

To some degree I think it's just going to cost more to eat fresh fruits, veggies, fish, whole-grains etc. But hopefully the health dividends you get will make it more than worth it (not just quality of life but lower dr/medicine costs too). I'm one of the menu-maker types and that's helped tons in not wasting food. I don't mind (too much) how much we spend of food because I know it's rare that something rots or just gets tossed.

Kim

[aggie94]

MBart:

When I started making a lot of CL recipes a few months ago, I noticed that I was spending more on groceries than before. That was in part due to the fact that many recipes call for wine, which we normally don't buy, cheeses, and other ingredients that I don't typically have around the house. Runnerkim's suggestion about the bulk spices is a good one. I was spending tons for small jars of expensive spices that I didn't have much use for before I discovered the bulk spice (and bulk foods, for that matter) section of the grocery store. Also, I try to seek out recipes that have ingredients that I use often, so that I'm not spending a lot of money on sauces, seasonings, exotic fruits/veggies, etc. that I may or may not use all of. We've incorporated at least one meal of fish into our weekly menu, so that has really added to the bill since I only buy fresh fish from the seafood market. Generally, I would tend to agree that eating healthier costs more. I have noticed that we eat out much less, so we do save money there. I bet if I added up the overall monthly costs of food (between groceries and dining out), I would find that we spend less now than we did before, even though it seems the grocery bills have gone up. Either way, I do chock it up to "better food is worth the price!"

[Lynn B]

Ditto to all of the above.

PLUS, keep reminding yourself that JUNK food is what's really expensive! Sodas, chippies, candy, prepackaged cookies, etc! Also, eating OUT is expensive. Think about all the wonderful, delicious, healthy food you are preparing at home, and thus (probably) saving money by eating out LOTS less!

And once you establish your pantry and get well-stocked on staples, spices, etc., you will probably see that you are spending less, too.

Bon appetit!

Lynn

[kwormann]

I agree with everything said, but I want to go on record as saying I think it STINKS that it costs more to be healthy!

Kim

[funnybone]

I have always spent a fortune on fruit and vegetable. DH does not know how to eat one orange or banana. He eats an orange, a banana, an apple and grapes all at one sitting. In the summer he substitues with peaches, nectarines, plums, etc. I used to comment that I spent $30 on fruit on Sat. only for it to be gone by Tuesday. I was brought up never to be cheap when it came to food (especially healthy food).

[KValley]

MBart-

Everyone has given great suggestions- I think it's a matter of you deciding for which products it make sense to spend extra, where you can stock up, plan ahead- and as aggie94 points out- find recipes that call for ingredients you (will) use often and know that the bulk food section of your grocery/natural food store is your friend! http://www.cookinglight.com/bbs/smile.gif

All this talk of gardening has left me aching for the little plot I left back in Illinois. lorilei, do you compost? I never spent a penny on soil additives- just blended my soil with fantastic compost. It also cut down on our garbage considerably- every uncooked kitchen scrap of the produce variety, coffee grounds, eggshells, went into that compost pile- I was so proud of it!!

I struggle most with the higher cost of organic foods. I buy organic produce and milk, but much of what is available in prepared organic foods and free range meats is beyond our budget.

I agree with aggie94- DH and I rarely eat out anymore- cooking together is much more fun and it has made a difference in our wallet! (Also, I travel on business 7-10 days/month, which of course means meals out- so eating out has lost much of its appeal).

The tradeoff for a larger grocery bill made up of good foods is a more varied diet, which equals good health, a more creative, balanced and satisfied you- definitely worth it!




[This message has been edited by KValley (edited 04-09-2001).]

[aggie94]

Kim,

Tell me about it! Is there any wonder why there are so many obese and overweight people nowadays? For the cost of a head of Romaine lettuce, I could get a Big Mac at McDonalds. And I'm sure the Big Mac would stay with me a lot longer than if I ate even the whole head of lettuce! Fresh fruit and veggies are expensive, even in season, if you eat a lot of them, which I try to. And cheap, fast food is so easy to come by. It's frustrating and sad, IMO.

[makedah]

Ditto to everything aggie94 said.

I felt the same way, Mbart. Now, I see -- as Lynn pointed out -- that junk foods are REALLY expensive. And when you figure in the cost to your health/well-being you really CAN'T afford the junk. Now I spend more on grocery than I used to, but I don't raid the vending machines at work and I don't buy fast food. I freeze more these days, eat less meat, waste less food, and I shop the sales.

I have more trepidation about the buying bulk spices thing. It's certainly cheaper than store spices, but be careful that those spices are actually good. Otherwise, you might as well put sawdust on your food. (Those little bags of spices they sell in the produce department are HORRIBLE.) I buy my spices from Penzey's, which is cheaper (because you buy smaller amounts) and FAR better than the grocery store.

I would say wait until you really get in the swing of cooking/eating more healthful foods before you start going the organic route. At some point it will matter to you EVEN more to have the freshest, most healthful food you can afford. I don't think the sticker shock will be as great then. (At least, that's how its working for me.)

Finally, I think that as you buy fewer and fewer processed items, you may see your bills actually dropping in some ways.

[Julia1Pin]

I agree with eveyone, on all accounts.

Remember though, stores like Trader Joes allow healthier eating (organic produce, etc...) at prices cheaper than the big grocery stores charge for non-organic.

[Mbart]

It's encouraging to hear all of your comments; I really am very psyched about this new, healthier eating lifestyle. I will check out the bulk spices suggestion. And I do love fresh fruits and vegies...unfortunately in the Midwest, our farmer's market season in relatively short, so the supermarket will have to do. I mentioned to my husband that I was thinking of starting a garden, and he gave me a very wary smile...sounds like a challenge to me! We'll just have to see how it goes!

[kwormann]

Trader Joes is great for those who HAVE one! all we have is Whole Foods (great selection, but aptly renamed Whole Paycheck by a good friend!)

Trader Joes....come to Houston!!!!!

Kim

[misstapioca]

i know it can get expensive when you are just starting out cooking healthy meals at home. i have been cooking with CL for 3 years now and mostly my grocery list contains fresh produce and dairy with the occassional meat product. i have all the spices,etc. But then again its just me that i am cooking for unlike all of you who have families and hungry husbands. One thing that i do is when i go to the store and i need something in a can,jar bag of pasta etc i ussually double the quantity i need for that special recipe then i have it there and sometimes that saves me a trip to the store! i would love a garden with a "gourmet" compost heap one day. that would be wonderful but i live in an apartment. i am going to go now and waste an hour dreaming about that!

[Tiger]

I feel lucky that we have a produce store up the street that sells produce cheap! Everything is a $1. A bag of fruit or fresh veggies ect. Romaine lettace is like 2 heads for a $1, celery 3 stalks for $1, carrots 2lg bags$1 ect. They give you so much sometimes I split it with a friend. I usually come out of the produce store with 2 big boxes of produce and have spent $7!!

[Beth]

Originally posted by kwormann:
Trader Joes is great for those who HAVE one! all we have is Whole Foods (great selection, but aptly renamed Whole Paycheck by a good friend!)

Trader Joes....come to Houston!!!!!

Kim




Yes, PLEASE!!!!

[mariakj]

Thank goodness summer is almost here! We have a Berry Farm and Farmers Market right up the street from us and during the summer we really save money buying there. A red pepper that would cost me $3/lb. at the grocery store, cost $.50 at the farmers market. Plus they have all those fresh berries for cheap! There are several CL recipes that I want to make with blueberries, but I can't afford $4 a carton. I might have to break down and buy a foodsaver so I can buy a lot of produce this summer and save it for later in the year...But that is a whole other thread.

I also agree about the organic meats and dairy raising my grocery bill. I actually spent $16 for a certified organic whole chicken a couple of weeks ago. I don't think I can keep that up. Plus the organic eggs I buy (I think the brand is Horizon) cost $2.89 vs. $.99 for the regular eggs.

It's expensive but worth it I'm sure! Dr. Weil would be so proud of me.

[catharine]

Originally posted by aggie94:
Tell me about it! Is there any wonder why there are so many obese and overweight people nowadays? For the cost of a head of Romaine lettuce, I could get a Big Mac at McDonalds. And I'm sure the Big Mac would stay with me a lot longer than if I ate even the whole head of lettuce!

Aggie94,

I couldn't agree more. In fact, just yesterday I handed in a paper {for my legal aspects of bioethics class) that argued that a junk food tax should be imposed. I argued that the money from the tax (which would be applied to sodas, snack cakes, chips, etc.) should be used to (1) fund health promotion programs [to teach people about healthful eating]; and (2) to subsidize more nutritious foods such as fruits and vegetables.

I am sure there won't be much argument with me here. Unfortunately I have to present the paper to my class next week (a bunch of conservative law students) and I know I will face a lot of controversy.

I'll just think about all of my friends here at the BB as I stand my ground.

I can tell you more about the paper if anyone is interested.

[pmmahan]

It IS more expensive, and sometimes I groan as I look at my bill in the checkout line. But I love to eat, I love to eat good food, and it is important for me to take care of my health - there is a lot of heart disease and some cancer in my family. When I eat healthy, it is easier for me to have to energy, work harder and better, and overall, enjoy life. I still eat junk occasionally - there is no harm in moderation in everything. In fact, I think if you let yourself enjoy ALL foods, you will find it easier to stick to a healthy diet 90% of the time.
Okay, I'll get off my soap box now http://www.cookinglight.com/bbs/smile.gif

[lorilei]

KValley - Ah, composting! I used to be able to compost, when space allowed! It was great to watch my old eggshells and banana peels turning into something productive. http://www.cookinglight.com/bbs/smile.gif

Unfortunately, now we're living in limited apartment space. I do most of my gardening in containers -- which means there's not much room for a compost pile. I do sprinkle my coffee grounds around the top of my plants, but aside from that, composting has taken a leave of absence for a while http://www.cookinglight.com/bbs/smile.gif

__

catherine - I just have to ask out of curiosity: Do you think imposing a "junk food" tax is really a good way of making people healthier? Junk foods are already more expensive per pound than most healthy foods... plus, there's no reason why people should be punished for indulging every once in a while. I'd far rather give my money to healthy foods... just a thought.

[KValley]

Originally posted by lorilei:
KValley - Ah, composting! I used to be able to compost, when space allowed! It was great to watch my old eggshells and banana peels turning into something productive. http://www.cookinglight.com/bbs/smile.gif

Unfortunately, now we're living in limited apartment space. I do most of my gardening in containers -- which means there's not much room for a compost pile. I do sprinkle my coffee grounds around the top of my plants, but aside from that, composting has taken a leave of absence for a while http://www.cookinglight.com/bbs/smile.gif_




lorilei- I completely understand. We're living in a rental house until we can determine our next move, and there just isn't the space for garden or compost.

Here's to our eventual gardens and compost piles http://www.cookinglight.com/bbs/smile.gif I just keep reading my issues of Organic Gardening and making plans!

[KValley]

whoah, I just read your post, catherine. I'm not in total agreement that a tax imposed on this type of food is the answer. I'm not certain what it, but this concerns me. Regardless, it's a very interesing notion. It reminds me of the sin tax imposed on alcohol and cigarettes. The alcohol part annoys me, because I drink wine; but I wonder how much of a deterrent this tax really is in alcohol and tobacco consumption, and how effective the prevention programs are- drug use of all types is certainly on the rise, particularly among women and teens.

I would fight much harder lower the cost of production of and the consumer price for organic and non-GM foods so that they were accessible to all, than to impose such a tax.

It is hard to legislate common sense, if not impossible. I think the answer lies in part with individuals promoting good health within their families, and with communities promoting farmer's markets, community gardens, etc.

My 2 cents! Julie

[catharine]

Originally posted by lorilei:
catherine - I just have to ask out of curiosity: Do you think imposing a "junk food" tax is really a good way of making people healthier? Junk foods are already more expensive per pound than most healthy foods... plus, there's no reason why people should be punished for indulging every once in a while. I'd far rather give my money to healthy foods... just a thought.

I don't think that a small tax will alter the demand that significantly (although a larger tax, while less politically feasible, would really have an impact). I would argue that junk foods do tend to be a little cheaper - bottled water/juice versus soda, candy bar versus nutrtition bar, etc.

But I think the junk food tax could have an influence. First, the funds generated from a national tax could be as high as $40 million per year. Right now the National Cancer Institute's budget for health promotion programs is around $1 million/year. Food manufacturers spend around $600 million. There is evidence that health promotion programs (such as the 5-a-day and 1% or less campaigns) really have an impact, and if there was more funding they could do a lot more.

My weaker premise is that the money could be used to subsidize healthy foods. That argument is that some people choose cookies as a meal rather than more healthful food because of the relative cost, and that if the tax revenue were used to make the fruits/veggies cheaper people would buy more and use them as a substitute.

There is a great article by Michael Jacobson of Center for Science in the Public Interest (on of my favorite organizations). if anyone is interested...www.cspinet.org.

[catharine]

Originally posted by KValley:
whoah, I just read your post, catherine. I'm not in total agreement that a tax imposed on this type of food is the answer. I'm not certain what it, but this concerns me. Regardless, it's a very interesing notion. It reminds me of the sin tax imposed on alcohol and cigarettes. The alcohol part annoys me, because I drink wine; but I wonder how much of a deterrent this tax really is in alcohol and tobacco consumption, and how effective the prevention programs are- drug use of all types is certainly on the rise, particularly among women and teens. Julie

I appreciate your concern. I don't think this plan is without problems. I wrote about it because I also think it is a very interesting idea.

You are right, it very much resembles the sin tax on alcohol and tobacco. My thesis is not so much that the tax will be a deterrent (see my second message above) but that it will generate much needed funding for health promotion programs.

Please, keep the comments coming. They give me something to think about before I present next week. And it nice to know that you all share my healthy-eating passion.

It is funny, but when I first decided on this topic I thought I would have a problem, because from where I stand it didn't seem that controversial and I am supposed to write about a debatable issue. I mentioned it to some friends and got this kind of response, and was glad to see the other side.

[JulieM]

Originally posted by funnybone:
I have always spent a fortune on fruit and vegetable. DH does not know how to eat one orange or banana. He eats an orange, a banana, an apple and grapes all at one sitting. In the summer he substitues with peaches, nectarines, plums, etc. I used to comment that I spent $30 on fruit on Sat. only for it to be gone by Tuesday. I was brought up never to be cheap when it came to food (especially healthy food).


Funnybone, how lucky you are that your sweety will eat all that fruit! http://www.cookinglight.com/bbs/smile.gif

[KValley]

catherine,

just wanted to say that I think it's excellent that you are doing this type of research and keeping us all on our toes. Obesity and poor nutrition are national health crises- we've got to push for answers and resolution.

I heard a report on NPR a few weeks ago of a push for health care plans to cover health club/gym/weight loss plan fees for the obese (not overweight, but those diagnosed as obese). I have to admit that this really angered me- who is going to reimburse me for my gym dues and grocery bills because I make healthy choices and I am in shape? I am saving my HMO $$! ah well.. .life goes on!

[JulieM]

Getting off the tax topic for a sec and back to the cost of healthy food, we have Wild Oats as well as Whole Foods here, and it is much more expensive to shop at these stores than the regular grocery. But I agree with everyone that it's worth it for our health. What seems to help is to try to stock up on things while they're on sale, as the sale price usually competes with the regular grocery price. So I buy lots of natural chicken breasts during the month that the sale is on. Same with boxed cereals, etc. And if the produce is not organic, I don't buy it at the healthy market since I know it's cheaper at Publix. I do a lot of back and forth between the two stores but it saves a lot of $. Now I need to take some of my savings and buy one of those foodsavers you guys sold me on so when I stock up on natural meat it will keep better! http://www.cookinglight.com/bbs/smile.gif

[Grace]

I'm with you all the way, Catherine! I spend more money on healthy groceries to keep myself healthy (and because I like them better!). I used to smoke (only for 7 years, and not very heavily), but I still believe in the "sin" tax. I resent paying higher insurance premiums to help pay for other people's illnesses that they basically inflict on themselves (CERTAINLY NOT EVERYONE, but a great many people). If people are going to smoke, or eat poorly, or slowly kill themselves with alcohol, then I think the "sin" tax money should go for paying for their health care. And again, I smoked, and didn't mind paying the higher price for cigarettes. I felt like it was my choice all the way, and someone else shouldn't have to pay for me either if I choose to harm my own health. Anyhow, I know it sounds harsh, but I think those that make the effort (as it is an effort to eat properly in this culture) to eat well and excercise and not smoke, etc., there should be a payoff of some sort for those efforts.

That's just my take on the subject.

[Curleytop]

Originally posted by Beth:

Yes, PLEASE!!!!
We have had TJ's for 25+ years. I have one in Manhattan Beach, in Torrance, in Redondo Beach, and San Pedro (all So.Cal.). They are all within 10 miles http://www.cookinglight.com/bbs/tongue.gif

[Pasha Luber]

How timely to see this topic! I was just feeling discouraged this weekend when I was reviewing our expenses and I felt we spent entirely too much on groceries. Don't get me wrong, I don't plan to stop eating healthy foods, but for two people, we spend a lot (~$75-100 per week). I don't have access to many of the large stores that are mentioned - this will change with our August move to Seattle!
I do stock up when meats are on sale (esp. boneless chicken breasts!) and fill the freezer. Newspaper coupons are such a contradiction for us - I spend at least an hour clipping and build up all that paper for the recycle bin, only to save a couple of dollars at the most. (I know I should value the newspaper for all of the information...) Two suggestions for people, try internet coupon sites and shop at stores that double the coupon values. Also, my farmer's market sells bulk spices too.
I am in the group that feels the extra expense is ultimately worth it for better health and better living!

[Don]

I apologize in advance, but I have to speak up on the debate about taxing fast foods. While the cost of fast food is a major factor in enticing people to eat at burger joints, etc., one of the major benefits is that it is fast. When people are commuting an hour or more each way to work, finding a meal that is quick, cheap and has no clean up is a godsend. Eating healthy is not only outside the budget of most fast food junkies that I know, especially if they have kids (the $16 chicken is a perfect example), but most would find some other type of quick meal. (The deli counters and hot dog vendors would love to tax fast food!) I find very few people who know how to cook, and fewer still who enjoy cooking. The only solution that I can see is to create healthy fast food that tastes good. If it doesn't meet the taste test, it's a dead duck. (Think McLean) Some of the new Mexican chains (I think the one in California is called Baja Grill) are relatively healthy while offering tasty and quick food choices. Hopefully we'll see more choices like this opening in the future.

As for the taxes issues, I think Americans are obsessed with paying taxes. We actually pay less taxes that almost any other industrialized nation in the world. And what do we get for it? Homelessness, people without health insurance, hunger, poor educational systems, and deteriorating public parks, buildings and roads. I found it very interesting that in a recent survey, the Danes and Dutch were the happiest people in the world. Not having to worry about housing, food, or health insurance seems to have been the key. Isn't interesting that the people with the bleakest climate and highest taxes are the happiest? It makes me think that Americans are really missing the point.

[lorilei]

Originally posted by Don:
As for the taxes issues, I think Americans are obsessed with paying taxes. We actually pay less taxes that almost any other industrialized nation in the world. And what do we get for it? Homelessness, people without health insurance, hunger, poor educational systems, and deteriorating public parks, buildings and roads. I found it very interesting that in a recent survey, the Danes and Dutch were the happiest people in the world. Not having to worry about housing, food, or health insurance seems to have been the key. Isn't interesting that the people with the bleakest climate and highest taxes are the happiest? It makes me think that Americans are really missing the point.

Americans miss the point about a lot of things -- but taxes are not one of them. We live in a country where we are free to CHOOSE things; we're not taxed into government programs that choose for us.

Sure, maybe the people in Holland are quite content to let the government decide where they should go and what type of medical care they need... but I'm not quite ready for that. I'd much rather "fend for myself" than be dictated by a government program.

[Luiza]

Funnybone, I think Don and Lorilei are pretty much debating your tax issue! http://www.cookinglight.com/bbs/biggrin.gif

Seriously now, paying taxes for healthcare does not necessarily mean that the government decides what kind of care you get. It simply means that after you decide what kind of care you want to get, the money is there. Yes, it is true that the government considers some choices more valid than others (like surgery over homeopathy, for instance), but so do the HMOs.

And sometimes you need a lot of money in one place to implement things that people would choose if they had the option, like good public transportation. During one of my visits to the US I was shocked to realize that buses get caught in traffic jams along with all the other vehicles. I asked a local friend why they have no separate bus lanes, and she looked at me like she's never heard of the concept before. More people using public transportation means less cars in the street which is better for the environment and less costly for the people, but where is the convenience?

Just my 2 cents (can't let a good debate slide without participating, anyway http://www.cookinglight.com/bbs/wink.gif )

Luiza

PS Regarding governments doing things on people's behalf -- isn't that what they were elected to do? This issue interests me.

[This message has been edited by Luiza (edited 04-10-2001).]

[KValley]

Okay, getting way off topic here, but I'm a little dubious of the survey.
Don, according to the World Health Organization's 2000 statistics, Western Europeans have among the highest suicide rates in the world, with socialized countries like Denmark and Austria leading the pack at rates 2 -3 x that of the US. Only the Baltic States and the former Soviet Union/Soviet Bloc of Eastern Europe exceed these rates...Scandinavia also has among the highest rates of alcoholism, according to W.H.O

I think the correlation between higher taxes and overall happiness is a difficult one to make. But I agree, U.S. Americans have no idea how easy we have it, tax-wise and on many other levels.

Please keep in mind, too, that until recently Denmark and the Netherlands have been very homogenous nations, culturally and ethnically. It is much easier to get a group of people who have been raised in the same traditions and with the same values to agree that their money should be spent for the collective good (hence, less grumbling over high taxes). The foundation of the UNited States is built on racial, cultural, ethnic diversity and on the rights of the individual to make his/her own way, and on no taxation w/out representation. The downside of these principles/qualities is that consensus in the most diverse nation in the world is very difficult to achieve, we scorn the "helping hand" of public assistance- the collective good that comes from a cradle-to-grave social system.

Now, how can I bring this around to the original topic? Hmmm... the most expensive grocery prices I have ever seen in my life have been in Denmark and Japan, another highly taxed country....In Tokyo last Spring I saw apples that were $15 per(equivalent). Puts things into perspective...



[This message has been edited by KValley (edited 04-10-2001).]

[lorilei]

Originally posted by Luiza:
Seriously now, paying taxes for healthcare does not necessarily mean that the government decides what kind of care you get. It simply means that after you decide what kind of care you want to get, the money is there. Yes, it is true that the government considers some choices more valid than others (like surgery over homeopathy, for instance), but so do the HMOs.

PS Regarding governments doing things on people's behalf -- isn't that what they were elected to do? This issue interests me.

[This message has been edited by Luiza (edited 04-10-2001).]

See, I don't agree with HMO's making choices for me either... but I won't go into that. I just appreciate having freedoms here in America. And I APPRECIATE the fact that I'm not taxed out of my ears here. I'd prefer to decide how to use my own money...

As for the government question -- well, I want the government to stay out of MY life. But that's just a personal opinion. I do not believe in running people's lives with national programs.

KValley - I've noticed too that in highly taxed nations, the grocery prices (esp for produce) are THROUGH THE ROOF! I have a great deal of appreciation for the fact that I live in a place where eating is relatively affordable.

[LynnSC]

I do think that healthy food is more expensive and cooking new recipes from CL ends up costing more than the way I used to cook. I do, however, consider cooking as my "therapy". I like to think that cooking in a more healthy manner has a positive impact on my family! I also believe cooking from CL magazine is much cheaper than playing golf would be. LOL!!!!!!!!!!

[kwormann]

Back to the food problem....

I have found, though, that if you ARE going to buy healthy food, it is cheeper at WHole Foods than at Kroger....just "food for thought"....

[kima]

Oh boy -a political discussion!! I just have to say as a Canadian that we have universal health care and while it definately has some problems I would not trade it for anything!! A government health care system does not mean no choice!! It does mean every citizen rich or poor is entitled to good quality care.
As far as taxes and prices I really feel it is a myth that countries such as Canada are more expensive (with some very notable exceptions). For example free range eggs in a expensive health store here are 2.99 Cdn. (everything would be 40% less in U.S. $). A 3 1/2 lb. organic free range chicken is 8.50 Cdn. I have never found U.S. prices to be lower- except for milk and cheese.
Well that is as political as I will ever get- don't get me staryed on gun control. I am enjoying this discussion. While itds fun to talk about recipes etc. it is nice to get into some meatier topics now and then!!

[Mbart]

The tax on junk food is an interesting topic; I will say that I would appreciate more voices (i.e. p.r. campaigns) speaking out for healthy eating, particularily when it comes to my kids. For example, my 8 yr. old complains that she's the only one in her class that has to have an APPLE or other fruit (heaven forbid!) for her mid-morning snack, while other kids get chips/other junk for theirs. Also, she tells me her friends think our family is "wierd" because I don't allow treats every night after dinner! Now I'm going to sound old, but when I was little, junk food was a special treat reserved for parties or a Friday night, but now it seems like it's just part of many kids' daily diet. Don't even get me started on kids and soda! I feel like the lone wolf out there...and any encouragement my kids could get to eat healthy would give my healthy eating lectures more credibility!

I am interested in hearing how your law class reacts to your paper.

[funnybone]

I used to live in Ontario, Canada and they do have tax on junk food and other "convenience foods". If you buy one muffin or donut (etc), you will be taxed, as it's considered for immediate consumption. But, if you buy six muffins, then it is considered "a family purchase" and you have no tax. The tax up there amounts to 15% (8% provincial, and 7% goods and services). Still, people do eat out. I cannot say what the tax really goes towards, but I can tell you that they are taxed to death up there. We moved to the US from two incomes to one, and live much better here, because the taxes are lower. I try telling that to my neighbors, they look at me funny - lol.

[This message has been edited by funnybone (edited 04-10-2001).]

[valeriek]

It does seem like I have a big grocery bill, but I think it's worth the cost. I am a coupon clipper and I always stock up when things are on sale, so I have a pretty well stocked pantry (when I first started cooking, I was running to the store for every ingredient on the list!). I swear I'm nuerotic because I check Giant's (my local grocery store) web site for what is on sale and then plan my grocery list based on those sale items. By the way, this week is is canned chicken broth 3 for $2. I bought six cans. I think the key is to slowly build a well stocked pantry by buying things on sale, and then you will have more money left over for the fresh fruits and veggie's.

Trader Joe's is the way to go as well. You can't beat their prices. Penzey's has also been kind enough to let me build a nice repertoire of spices. The ones at the grocery store are so expensive!

[catharine]

Thanks for the support everyone. While the debate helps, the encouragment and agreement are very helpful too. I'll let you know how the presentation goes.

[This message has been edited by catharine (edited 04-10-2001).]

[lorilei]

Originally posted by catharine:
But I think the junk food tax could have an influence. First, the funds generated from a national tax could be as high as $40 million per year. Right now the National Cancer Institute's budget for health promotion programs is around $1 million/year. Food manufacturers spend around $600 million. There is evidence that health promotion programs (such as the 5-a-day and 1% or less campaigns) really have an impact, and if there was more funding they could do a lot more.

Thanks for the link to the article, catherine. I do think your idea would be an interesting way to generate revenue for worthwhile programs. But I still have some questions?

First of all, who would decide what is "junk food"?

Secondly, would you say this impacts the idea of "personal freedom"? I don't want to get too radical about this idea (because I firmly believe that people should take care of themselves), but I wonder if taxing people for their "bad" habits (even if it helps someone else) is a bit extreme? Taxes always seem like a great idea on the surface, but they also seem to be forcing us to give our money to programs that we (as individuals) don't necessarily support.



[This message has been edited by lorilei (edited 04-10-2001).]

[catharine]

Originally posted by lorilei:
First of all, who would decide what is "junk food"?

Good question. Some states have had big problems with the tax because it was difficult to decide what would be taxed (i.e, California taxed donut holes, but not donuts).

I don't know the answer to your question. I will see if I can find out. Probably some governement agency will be charged with the tax.

Secondly, would you say this impacts the idea of "personal freedom"? I don't want to get too radical about this idea (because I firmly believe that people should take care of themselves), but I wonder if taxing people for their "bad" habits (even if it helps someone else) is a bit extreme? Taxes always seem like a great idea on the surface, but they also seem to be forcing us to give our money to programs that we (as individuals) don't necessarily support.
[/B]

I agree. Taxes can not only infringe on our personal freedoms, but also force us to contribute to programs we do not support.

Just to clarify, the proposed tax (currently only proposed by nutrtion experts, not Congress or any agencies) suggests implemented a very small tax, say 1-2 cents per pound of candy, or bottle of soda. While you concerns are still equally applicable, it is less objectionable when the tax is so small (I think).

Thanks for taking the time to consider the issue. You have given me some issues to think about. The thing about law school is that they force you to be able to argue both sides of an issue, but then make you choose one side. I used to have such firm opinions about everything, but as many of my classmates have noted, law school makes you wishy-washy.

I believe there are good arguments for and against the junk food tax (any many other issues). But I believe that the tax will do enough good to outweight the disadvantages.

Catharine

(Sorry to take up so much BB space about a political issue.

[kima]

Here in B.C. we pay 60.00 a month for universal medical care. This is for a family of four. After 65 it is free and many provinces don't cahrge this user fee at all. For that small amount we can see any doctor- specialist etc. If you earn under a certain amount you pay nothing. I have American friends with no health care and that is scary!! I am one proud and grateful Canadian!!

[Don]

I just wanted to say that I agree with those of you who don't want the government to make choices for them. I don't think that government guaranteed health care does that. However, I would be willing to pay more taxes to ensure that everyone has health care, rather than paying $60 or so per week (at least that's my portion of my health care insurance expense) for some multinational corporation to make a profit while many people lack any coverage whatsoever. It reminds me of Julius Nyerere's comment that freedom is only of importance if you have a belly full of food. I can't help but think that we need a new approach to health care, given that the current system leaves so many people without insurance--and the numbers are increasing rapidly.

As for the Dutch and Danes, a Dutch friend of mine pointed out that Holland is much more diverse than people realize. Moreover, unlike Denmark, they don't have a policy of trying to assimilate new populations. I found Amsterdam and Rotterdam to be as diverse as most American cities. I was even surprised to find large communities of Surinamese, Indonesians, and Muslims in areas like Groningen. Apparently diversity doesn't have to be a barrier to programs that improve the human conditions of everyone.

If you're interested in the happiness survey, check out: http://www.stanford.edu/class/stat30/web1/happy.html

[This message has been edited by Don (edited 04-11-2001).]