Now the Norwegians are upset with the t.u. Longhorns...

[hollysmom]

For those not from Texas, we Aggies do a 'Thumbs UP' sign and the folks from the little school in Austin do a "hook 'em" hand gesture where they raise the forefinger and little finger of the right hand while tucking all the other fingers and the thumb. (somebody post a picture)

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Norway reads something sinister in 'Hook 'em' sign
Jenna's gesture shocks those who recall it meaning devil worship
By ANDREW DANSBY
Copyright 2005 Houston Chronicle

Jenna Bush's Longhorn salute during her father's inauguration festivities caused a stir in Norway, suggesting that Austin and Oslo are two cities separated by the same hand gesture.

"Sjokkhilsen fra Bush datter," read an outraged headline on Norwegian news Web site Nettavisen. Translated: "Shock greeting from Bush daughter."

Sjokkhilsen, indeed. The University of Texas marching band and Norway's death-metal musicians inspire the same reverent hand gesture from their respective legions, the time-tested "horns" produced by extending one's index and pinkie fingers.

The "Hook 'em, Horns" that Bush flashed when The Eyes of Texas was played at the Black Tie and Boots gala Wednesday was misconstrued by some in Norway as a sign of the devil used by a musical scene that terrorized the country in the late 1980s and early '90s.

Bush's gesture has more innocent roots, credited to UT head cheerleader Harley Clark in 1955. Clark, a former state district judge who retired to Dripping Springs, introduced the sign at a pep rally that November as a response to Texas A&M's "Gig 'em" sign, a thumbs-up gesture.

"Surely everybody in the world takes offense at the Aggie Gig 'em sign," Clark says. "I can't think of anything more repulsive than that hand gesture."


Death metal's history

In Norway the horns carried a greater menace. The country has long been a hotbed of death metal, a subgenre of music with a sordid history of church burnings, murder, inadvertant bludgeonings (with sheep skulls), pet sacrifices and sundry behavior best described as anti-Christian. There the gesture has little to do with sports rivalries.

Largely a reaction to the country's conservative population, its black or death-metal scene popped up roughly 20 years ago and has a grisly history, best documented in the book Lords of Chaos.


Needless to say, Norway's more prudish contingent was aghast upon seeing the daughter of the American president flashing a sign associated with such behavior.

"I suppose it can mean different things to different people in different parts of the world," Clark says. "I guess the Norwegians and Italians should be happy that our mascot was a longhorn and not a unicorn."

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All the horns of the wicked also will I cut off; - Psalm 75:10 :D


Gig 'em!!!

SSM

[CompassRose]

I thought that the "hookem horns" can in fact mean something very similar to our upraised middle finger in parts of Europe. That sign is also a very old one meant to ward off the devil or other evil.

[SueK]

I bet the Norwegians think Sponge Bob is evil, too. ;)

[Clover]

I've read that the horns gesture means "cuckold" in Italy.

There's a town called Dripping Springs? Norway has "long been a hotbed of death metal"? Really? The things one learns here.

[ClaraB]

Originally posted by SueK
I bet the Norwegians think Sponge Bob is evil, too. ;) I'm doubting it... Norwegians are pretty liberal folks :) (my father is from Norway). I think we'll have to chalk this up to a cultural divide.

[doggerham]

Dripping Springs is a very nice place.

[leightx]

I have NO idea what it means, but why would anyone find the gig 'em sign repulsive???? :confused: They don't like hitchikers? Or Siskel and Ebert?

I was cracking up about the unicorn though! :D

[badunnin]

Originally posted by leightx
I have NO idea what it means, but why would anyone find the gig 'em sign repulsive???? :confused: They don't like hitchikers? Or Siskel and Ebert?

I was cracking up about the unicorn though! :D


Leigh - are you referring to this? ""Surely everybody in the world takes offense at the Aggie Gig 'em sign," Clark says. "I can't think of anything more repulsive than that hand gesture." " Clark was being sarcastic (and anti-Aggie) - he was the one that came up with the Hook'em hand sign.

[leightx]

Duh - slapping my forehead! That went right over my head tonight. :rolleyes:

[badunnin]

Originally posted by leightx
Duh - slapping my forehead! That went right over my head tonight. :rolleyes:

;) Gotta love those nights. :) Up here I'm claiming that my brain has frozen.

[leightx]

Unfortunately, I can't even blame it on wine. Or weather. :p Perhaps it's allergies?? Yeah - that sounds good....

[MaryH]

Originally posted by hollysmom
For those not from Texas, we Aggies do a 'Thumbs UP' sign and the folks from the little school in Austin do a "hook 'em" hand gesture where they raise the forefinger and little finger of the right hand while tucking all the other fingers and the thumb. (somebody post a picture)

And man oh man if you're not from Texas do NOT make the mistake of doing one when you mean the other. :D ;) I used to date a guy from Houston (pronounced YOUUUUS-TON for the record) and he was a Longhorn, not an Aggie. I learned pretty quickly that it was a major faux pas to confuse the two. :eek:

[HRJ]

A very, very long time ago, I dated a guy who had gone to UT (although he was from New Jersey). I was so darn sick of that "hook 'em" gesture by the time we parted company ....

And now, my other pet peeve -- journalists who don't do their homework. How difficult would it have been for the Norwegian reporters to find out whether the "hook 'em" gesture had a different cultural meaning to Americans, particularly Texans, than it does in their country? After all, how many people worldwide are familiar with the intricasies of Norwegian death metal? :confused:

(BTW, can't believe I'm actually defending, even in some small measure, a member of the Bush family. :rolleyes: )

Helene

[CompassRose]

How long would it take a member of the Bush's "handling team" to brief them on these things? C'mon, that sort of thing -- gestures that could be misread -- is the kind of stereotypical diplomatic error that would be cautioned against in a World Travel for Dummies book.

But then again, Bush & Co. have already made it perfectly clear that they do not care what the rest of the world thinks -- if indeed the existence of anything outside the US is anything other than a sort of mass delusion.

[aggie94]

Originally posted by MaryH
I used to date a guy from Houston (pronounced YOUUUUS-TON for the record)

Only by outsiders. ;) Us native Houstonians can assure you that the "H" is NOT silent.

[ClaraB]

Originally posted by CompassRose
How long would it take a member of the Bush's "handling team" to brief them on these things? C'mon, that sort of thing -- gestures that could be misread -- is the kind of stereotypical diplomatic error that would be cautioned against in a World Travel for Dummies book.

But then again, Bush & Co. have already made it perfectly clear that they do not care what the rest of the world thinks -- if indeed the existence of anything outside the US is anything other than a sort of mass delusion. C'mon, do you really expect every member of Bush's family to be briefed on every aspect of popular culture from every part of the world? Setting the bar a bit high, don't you think?

And as far as Bush not caring what the rest of the world thinks, I find it kind of a refreshing chage from the usual political popularity contests :rolleyes: . Should he base his decisions on what he thinks is best (and what Americans elected him for), or on what "the rest of the world" wants? He was elected by Americans, not the people of any other country, and as such, he is responsible to Americans, not to any other country. You wouldn't expect Paul Martin to pander to Americans, would you? Then why should Bush pander to any other country?

[sneezles]

Originally posted by aggie94


Only by outsiders. ;) Us native Houstonians can assure you that the "H" is NOT silent.

Not native but lived there long enough to know that!! ;)

And the peace sign/victory sign held round the other way is the same as our "bird" finger in the UK.

[Chefzhat]

A little protocol research reveals that almost every hand gesture that Americans have mean something entirely different in other parts of the world. The okay sign is not well received in Asia, the previously mentioned peace sign offends Europeans.

It is amusing that the press is giving this so much attention. I would hate to be anyone in the public eye, as it would seem that nothing one does is right to all parties.

Debie

[hollysmom]

I wonder if the 'Live long and Prosper' sign means anything else anywhere else.

SSM

[CompassRose]

Thank you, Helene. Please accept my apologies. I so should not be getting near this.

[HRJ]

Originally posted by hollysmom
I wonder if the 'Live long and Prosper' sign means anything else anywhere else.

SSM

Absolutely. It's a gesture of "blessing" used as part of Jewish ritual. It's also sometimes incorporated in synagogue artwork/decorations, or on Jewish tombstones.

It's meant to symbolize the Hebrew letter "Shin," which is the beginning of one of the many Hebrew names of God, and also to symbolize the word "Shekhina," which is, basically, the "female essence" of God, according to Jewish thought. It has a lot to do with kabbalah, or Jewish mysticism.

Leonard Nimoy, who is Jewish, said he got the idea for using the gesture on "Star Trek" because he had seen it used in synagogue when he was a child. (It was not part of the original script.)

***

Regarding the Bush daughter and international protocol -- I agree with Clara, it's unrealistic to think that the Bush family -- or any First Family, should be acquainted with every custom the world over.

It would be one thing if this happened at a ball in Oslo, or maybe at a White House diplomatic function to which Norwegian notables had been invited. But in the context in which it was used, it's obvious the intent was entirely harmless.

And I'm now going to bite my tongue, re: the issue of W. and world opinion, because I don't want to politicize this thread any further.

Helene

[Chefzhat]

Didn't Bush Sr. barf on someone? Am I remembering this right? Now there's a sign of disrespect! :) ;)

Compassrose - I'm asking this out of pure curiosity and you truly don't need to answer it. Please don't take it the wrong way. Why do you have such strong opinions regarding President Bush? I see you are from Canada.

[eas11]

Originally posted by Chefzhat
Didn't Bush Sr. barf on someone? Am I remembering this right? Now there's a sign of disrespect! :) ;)



OMG- the SNL skit about Bush Sr. at that dinner was so d@mn funny :D

[Chefzhat]

Hilarious! I've got it on tape!

[CompassRose]

Originally posted by Chefzhat
Compassrose - I'm asking this out of pure curiosity and you truly don't need to answer it. Please don't take it the wrong way. Why do you have such strong opinions regarding President Bush? I see you are from Canada.
Oo! Ah! :p No, quite all right -- but I think in this case the better part of valour requires that I just don't start. I think -- no, no, I am sitting on my hands!

[MaryH]

Originally posted by aggie94


Only by outsiders. ;) Us native Houstonians can assure you that the "H" is NOT silent.

Must have been something that hapened to him when he moved to California. :) Now, just don't try to get me to phonetically spell "oil" the way he used to say it. :p

[hollysmom]

Originally posted by MaryH


Now, just don't try to get me to phonetically spell "oil" the way he used to say it. :p

'AWL' as in 'Awl Well'

SSM

[lisas3575]

So nobody thinks that Jenna was instead using the American Sign Language sign for bullsh*t to comment on her dad's policies? No? Didn't think so. :p

[hollysmom]

OK - I guess an Aggie came up with that part of American Sign Language...:D :D

SSM

[Angelina]

So what's an Aggie? And yes, that sign would mean "cuckhold" in Italy and most likely get you into a fight. :)

Angela

[sneezles]

Originally posted by Angelina
So what's an Aggie?
Angela

A student/graduate of Texas A & M (agriculture and mechanics, I think) University. Their team name is Aggies.

[Clara]

Oh this is cracking me up! As an Aggie, I find this hilarious. Hopefully our thumbs up sign won't get us in any trouble.

What a truly harmless gesture this was, and I hope the rest of the world realizes that. Her school song was playing, it was a natural thing for her to do no matter where she was.

And as a Houston resident, the H is NOT silent. :)

And thanks for the info on the "live long and prosper" sign, that was very interesting!