MEN -- Grrrrrr..... (vent)

[jem927]

Okay, I usually don't rant like this, but DBF has me steaming right now, and I have to wonder if I am making something out of nothing... So this is where I turn..

I am a CPA, and obviously, our busy season is starting. DBF and I have been living together for almost a year and a half, so he has seen tax season before and knows my stress level. I go to work early, and get home late (last night - almost 10p), and there isn't much time for taking care of the house, dishes, clothes, etc..

So, last night, I get home and the dishwasher hasn't been emptied, and he has dumped all of his lunch and dinner dishes in the sink. I asked him why he couldn't have at least filled the sink up with hot soapy water. His response - "Well, I took the trash out, and started some laundry..." The rest of his afternoon and night (he gets home by 4p) is playing his trumpet, surfing the net, and watching tv.

I'm not asking him to do EVERYTHING around the house, but to be considerate and pick up after himself. I spend my Sundays during "the season" cooking frozen casseroles, etc so there is food for the week, along with grocery shopping, cleaning house, paying bills, etc... During March and April I have to work part of Sundays as well. So, my free time is next to nil.

We went round and round last tax season about him picking up after himself (the dishes in the sink thing happens ALL the time), so I didn't have to come home at 9,10, or 11p at night,and clean up his crap. And let's not forget, I fix his breakfast and lunch for the next day.

I just feel like he doesn't do his share, and isn't considerate of what is going on in my life. When his schedule gets hectic, I try to pick up the slack with his "chores" so it takes a little bit off of him. Why can't he do the same?????

Am I expecting too much from him, or is this just a male trait that I need to deal with? What would you do in this situation???

Thanks for listening, and for any advice you can share!

Jamie

[tamawrite]

I certainly don't think you're expecting too much. He is being inconsiderate, but he may not realize it. Try to have a calm, brief talk about how you feel. That way, there's no excuse for his not knowing. Let him know that you're happy to make his lunch, etc but if a sink full of dishes takes up all your free time, you won't be able to do so & he'll have to pack his own lunch. Then FOLLOW THROUGH. It's a fine line to walk -- be respectful, but stick to your guns. Good luck!

[Peggy]

You are not expecting too much. Like most men, he is simply spoiled. When things are consistently done for them they stop doing for themselves. My advise. Stop doing everything for him. Don't do the dishes that aren't done when you get home late. He is capable of making his own breakfast, lunch and dinner. He is capable of cleaning up after himself. Take care of your own needs (not just during tax season) but all the time. Let him take care of his own. You will no longer be resentful and he won't feel nagged. Eventually things will work themselves out. This won't be easy for you to do, but quit being his mother and maid. Period.

You do have my sympathies!:) But I think YOU need to change before he will.

Peggy

[Grace]

I don't think you're going to like my answer, but I'll give my 2 cents anyway!

This has nothing to do with him being "male". Bad behavior is not the sole realm of males. The problem is he's immature and inconsiderate. Women can be immature and inconsiderate too.

Sounds to me like he's not valuing your relationship, your home, or you the same way you value your relationship, your home and him. It's not likely you can make him change the way he feels about those things. So IMO, you have to decide whether the good aspects of him outweigh the negative. For me, someone who didn't value our relationship or our home or me would be out the door really fast. I wouldn't waste even 5 minutes anymore with someone who wasn't on the same page with me. (That's not to say I never did that - I spent many years with people who didn't have their heart into me or "us").

If you're not planning to marry this guy, and you just like to keep him around for his good qualities, or, his good qualities DO outweigh the bad, then my solution would be to get a cleaning lady, and just suck it up and do the piddly stuff in the evenings when I'm tired. I would also quit making his breakfast and lunch a well. But again, someone who doesn't value the fact that I am working long hours to make money for US, and just doesn't give a rat's behind about that would be gone from my life. But that's just me.

[aggie94]

This is a familiar song at my house. Not that DH doesn't help out, because he does, but it seems that when things get particularly crazy, I end up picking up the slack. But it's also because I'm much more anal than he is about coming home to a clean, picked-up house.

Would it bother you to leave his dirty lunch and dinner dishes in the sink? Don't pick up after him for a day or two and maybe if he needs something, he'll find it worthwhile to clean up after himself. Also:

Originally posted by jem927
And let's not forget, I fix his breakfast and lunch for the next day.

Why? If he has time to play his trumpet, surf the internet, and watch TV, he has time to fix his own meals, IMO. If you continue to do stuff for him, he'll continue to expect it.

I don't think you're expecting too much from your DH to help out, but if you're not ASKING him to do specific things, or you're not telling him you need particular tasks done, then yes, you're expecting too much. Next Sunday, try telling your DH: "Do you want to go grocery shopping or stay home and clean the house while I go?" Give him tasks. Because (and I hate to generalize, but it's true) otherwise men do not "see" things that need to be done like we do.

[MKSquared]

It's not necessarily a quality of men, but being inconsiderate is certainly a quality of all men I know who play the trumpet. For real. :p

Have you had a calm conversation with him about it - not when you've just gotten home, but when you've unwound a bit?

[LaraW]

This is also a familiar scene at my house. DH is pretty good about doing things around the house, but he often does things only about 90% of the way rather than finishing them, or he just doesn't see things that need to be done, and I can't figure out how he doesn't see them.

My suggestion would be the same as Eva's, which is to ask him to do specific tasks. Sometimes (at least with my DH) I think that its hard to see specific things that need to be done, and can get overwhelming to "clean the house" and breaking it down into smaller tasks helps.

I know how you feel - to me there is nothing worse than coming in to a dirty kitchen after a long long day at work. Especially when someone has been home and is perfectly able-bodied to take care of it.

[kima]

I totally disagree that "men" don't see what need to be done about the house-you make them sound like children. Children definately don't see or care what needs to be done around the house. I just went through a list in my mind of all the husbands I know and every single one of them cooks, cleans, cares for the kids , does the gardening. Do I happen to know all the gems out there? I don't think so.
If this thread was posted by a man who said all women did something we would rightly be up in arms.
I am sorry your BF doesn't help enough- all I can say is in that situation I would have a real heart to heart with him about it. If he odoesn't listen and empathize with how you feel then there is more to this then meets the eye. Hope you survive this tax season-hang in there.

[jem927]

We have had SEVERAL conversations regarding this type of behavior - both calmly and otherwise. And obviously the behavior isn't changing.

His basic attitude (and he gone so far as to say it) is that he is going to do the tasks he wants to do, and then the rest is up to me. So, he feeds the dogs when he gets home, does laundry (partially - more on that in a bit), and takes out the trash once a week.

The kitchen has never been his area of expertise. He admits that he doesn't like to cook, and would be quite content to have ham and cheese sandwiches, or grilled chicken breast with some sort of frozen veggie, on a regular basis. Then in the next conversation, he says that he thinks that we need to be watching what we are eating and I need to cook healthy foods for us. (I do cook healthy, but he chooses to ignore portion sizes and snacks..)

As for the cleaning of dishes etc., I wouldn't "mind" leaving dishes for him to do, but it is my house (I bought it before we met), and I have issues with bugs, smells, etc.. I don't want them. I feel like he is not respecting me or my property when he treats it like this.

And there have been other incidents of this. Another example (somewhat gross) - he has a female dog, who has not been fixed, so we have "heat" issues to address. He keeps saying that he will get her fixed, but it never seems to work itself into his budget. So, this last time, she started spoting on my carpet. He tried using Resolve on it, but it had already done damage to the carpet. Nothing more has been done regarding it, except he has called one of his friends who has a steam cleaner, and he hasn't returned the call. Same behavior - disrespectful to me and my property.

As for the laundry... He seems quite capable of getting the laundry downstairs, into the washer and dryer, and then onto hangers or in another basket to come back upstairs. Who ends up taking it upstairs quite a bit? ME.... he can't seem to complete the task.. GRRRRR

Grace, I completely NEEDED to hear your answer.. I know it was harsh, but I really needed it. Thank you for your comments. We had a big arguement on New Year's Day regarding alot of issues, and it seems like nothing has changed. So, if we continue like this, my bet is that there will be another blowup in about 6 weeks. At that juncture, if I don't make changes before then, there will be changes made, it seems.

Any other thoughts??

Thanks to everyone!

Jamie

[bobmark226]

Thank you, Maureen! Couldn't have said it better myself.

Bob

[MrsReber]

I do agree with Grace- if you are having these issues now, don't expect them to get any better in the future. Just curious who did all these things for this guy before you decided to live together. Did he live alone before? Was his place a disaster? Or did mom help him out with everything.

First off- I would never make breakfast and lunch for my DH. I love him dearly, but I don't have the time and he's a big boy. He can feed himself. I do make dinner because I like to eat healthy. On the very rare occasions when I'm not there for dinner, he is more than capable of getting his own dinner. Why are you making breakfast and lunch for this guy? He has 2 hands and says he'll eat ham and cheese sandwiches. So let him! Buy paper plates and plastic ware and make him use that if he's not going to wash his own dishes.

I do agree that people differ in their views on what "needs" to be done. DH and I do run into problems in this area quite often. What seems obvious to me might not seem so obvious to him - and vice versa. He'll be steaming over something that I didn't do, when I never knew that it was bothering him.

Can you maybe make up a schedule of chores? Some kind of chart that says "vaccuum living room Tuesday nights" or whatever. Maybe ask him to do laundry one night and then make sure the dishes are cleaned up the next night? (I mean, you don't really need to do laundry every single night, right?)

But do take a good look at the situation. Make sure that you and he have the same goals in mind. If you're looking for marriage and kids and he's looking for a chef and a maid, you have much bigger issues. And please think hard if you want children because their care would probably fall entirely on you.

One more little thing- I noticed that you said "it's MY house." While I can respect that you bought it on your own, think about that statement. DH and I lived together prior to getting married. I had my own house and sold it when we decided to live in his house. I contributed plenty with my salary and he insisted the house was his. I was insulted by that and didn't have much incentive to clean "his" house or buy new things for "his" house. Just a thought.

[Kristilyn1]

Originally posted by jem927

.



We went round and round last tax season about him picking up after himself (the dishes in the sink thing happens ALL the time), so I didn't have to come home at 9,10, or 11p at night,and clean up his crap. And let's not forget, I fix his breakfast and lunch for the next day.


Jamie

You are right, he is being inconsiderate, but another question is: when you are so busy, why are you making his lunch? Also, why do you have to come home and clean up? If I were you, I'd leave it. Trust me, I know that is hard to do, but by doing it for him you are just enabling him.

Kristi

[tamawrite]

Originally posted by MKSquared
It's not necessarily a quality of men, but being inconsiderate is certainly a quality of all men I know who play the trumpet. For real. :p

LOL It's not all of them, I swear. DH plays the trumpet, but he does more for me than I could ever ask. :)

[BarbaraL]

I have issues like this with my husband too. He seems to think that housework was "women's work". Since I work fulltime, this doesn't fly with me, and was the source of many arguments. He now does more than he used to, but still not as much as I do, probably because the mess bothers me more than it does him. But your BF really seems to be inconsiderate (dare I say lazy?), and figures that if he leaves a mess, you'll clean it up. If he refuses to help, or compromise, on this issue, I think it shows a serious lack of respect for you, and I think you should seriously rethink your relationship with him.

[AD]

This is perhaps one of many reasons a boyfriend and girlfriend are not supposed to live together before getting married. My advice would be to live in separate houses until you are married. That way, your boyfriend is forced into taking on responsibilities and chores.

[jem927]

I see your point AD, but why would living separately make him change his ways? I have set a pattern of acceptable behaviour by letting it continue, so what is not to say that it would change back to the current status quo once we were to get married?

And at this point, based on other issues and comments here, I have to wonder if marriage is even on the table.

I don't know.. I'm just frustrated with the whole thing at this point.

Jamie

[SandyM]

Originally posted by AD
This is perhaps one of many reasons a boyfriend and girlfriend are not supposed to live together before getting married. My advice would be to live in separate houses until you are married. That way, your boyfriend is forced into taking on responsibilities and chores.

:rolleyes:

Please. Like he wouldn't live in his own pigsty? That's funny.

I don't agree that you should just let things go undone. It's your house. He has nothing vested in it, so why should he care if crud lies around? Sorry to sound so harsh, but if you've had these discussions before and nothing has changed, I think he's just found himself a substitute mother.

Best of luck to you.

[leightx]

Originally posted by AD
This is perhaps one of many reasons a boyfriend and girlfriend are not supposed to live together before getting married. My advice would be to live in separate houses until you are married. That way, your boyfriend is forced into taking on responsibilities and chores.

Whew - I don't know about that one! He might have been content living in a pig sty and only cleaning up when she was coming over. Then they'd really be in a pickle once married and she found out the truth.

IMO, better to deal with it before the marriage than after.

[CompassRose]

Originally posted by jem927
We have had SEVERAL conversations regarding this type of behavior - both calmly and otherwise. And obviously the behavior isn't changing.

His basic attitude (and he gone so far as to say it) is that he is going to do the tasks he wants to do, and then the rest is up to me.
Er, say what? Nice negotiation, nice consideration of the shared space, nice...

...nice horse's rear end.

Would you take that from a housemate who didn't come with bed benefits?

This is not a relationship of respectful equals. He's being inconsiderate and ridiculously rude. If nothing else, I'd toss him out as a housemate. Let him slob up his own abode.

[aggie94]

Originally posted by jem927
We have had SEVERAL conversations regarding this type of behavior - both calmly and otherwise. And obviously the behavior isn't changing.

His basic attitude (and he gone so far as to say it) is that he is going to do the tasks he wants to do, and then the rest is up to me. So, he feeds the dogs when he gets home, does laundry (partially - more on that in a bit), and takes out the trash once a week.

The kitchen has never been his area of expertise. He admits that he doesn't like to cook, and would be quite content to have ham and cheese sandwiches, or grilled chicken breast with some sort of frozen veggie, on a regular basis. Then in the next conversation, he says that he thinks that we need to be watching what we are eating and I need to cook healthy foods for us. (I do cook healthy, but he chooses to ignore portion sizes and snacks..)

As for the cleaning of dishes etc., I wouldn't "mind" leaving dishes for him to do, but it is my house (I bought it before we met), and I have issues with bugs, smells, etc.. I don't want them. I feel like he is not respecting me or my property when he treats it like this.

And there have been other incidents of this. Another example (somewhat gross) - he has a female dog, who has not been fixed, so we have "heat" issues to address. He keeps saying that he will get her fixed, but it never seems to work itself into his budget. So, this last time, she started spoting on my carpet. He tried using Resolve on it, but it had already done damage to the carpet. Nothing more has been done regarding it, except he has called one of his friends who has a steam cleaner, and he hasn't returned the call. Same behavior - disrespectful to me and my property.

As for the laundry... He seems quite capable of getting the laundry downstairs, into the washer and dryer, and then onto hangers or in another basket to come back upstairs. Who ends up taking it upstairs quite a bit? ME.... he can't seem to complete the task.. GRRRRR

Grace, I completely NEEDED to hear your answer.. I know it was harsh, but I really needed it. Thank you for your comments. We had a big arguement on New Year's Day regarding alot of issues, and it seems like nothing has changed. So, if we continue like this, my bet is that there will be another blowup in about 6 weeks. At that juncture, if I don't make changes before then, there will be changes made, it seems.

Any other thoughts??

Thanks to everyone!

Jamie

This completely changes my response. It's one thing to be completely oblivious to what needs to be done but still be receptive to doing things, so long as someone TELLS you what to do (which is how my DH generally is) and just flat out refuse to do anymore than you're already doing (which sounds to me like barely anything). The fact that you've had multiple conversations about this already and he refuses to change is a big red flag. How would he react if you were to sit down and make a list of chores to be divided between the two of you? I.e. your tasks are taking out the garbage weekly, mowing the lawn, doing (and putting away) laundry, unloading the dishwasher while mine are loading the dishwasher, cooking, grocery shopping, etc. Alternatively, how would he react if you just left him a list every day? "When you get home from work, please take out the trash, load any dirty dishes into the dishwasher, and fold the clean laundry." My DH actually appreciates it when I leave him specific tasks to do, because he knows once they're done, the rest of his time is his. If I come home, I can't yell at him for not doing something I didn't tell him to do. :rolleyes:

Would he consider going to counseling? It sounds like he might need to be hearing these things from someone else. You've hit the nail on the head when you say he doesn't respect you or your property, but at the same time, there is still a division between "yours" and "his" that allows him to justify what he's doing. I definitely think you need to nip these issues in the bud before the relationship goes further, because, like others have said, it certainly won't get BETTER once you're married.

[jmarie]

Have you considered hiring someone to come in and then splitting the bill with him? My husband fits your DBF's description. He was raised that men work outside the home and the home is the woman's domain. Forget about the fact that we both work outside the home, he works harder...and this is his philosophy. After awhile, the argument just got old.

No amount of arguing ever helped, so I decided that I needed some help. I, too, have certain times of the year when we are offering a class and I am training, that I can't be home. So, once a week a dear lady comes in to catch things up, towards the end of the week. It has made for a much more harmonious relationship. Frees me up for the weekend.

Hope that you work something out.
Joyce

[Ms. Chevious]

Originally posted by AD
This is perhaps one of many reasons a boyfriend and girlfriend are not supposed to live together before getting married. My advice would be to live in separate houses until you are married. That way, your boyfriend is forced into taking on responsibilities and chores.

Relationship advice from someone who doesn't even have to shave yet. :rolleyes:

[jem927]

Thank you to all of you! Your comments have been very helpful.

The more I sit here steaming about this, and reading over my comments, the more I think "Why am I doing this?". I have to wonder if I have made a big mistake in my life - okay, ANOTHER big mistake! Is this really worth the relationship?? Yes, it is nice to have "bed benefits" as someone mentioned, but can I really live with this the rest of my life? And more importantly, why should I have to?

Time to seriously consider the status of the relationship...

Jamie

[oskie]

While you certainly have every right to reevaluate the relationship and you know better than anybody else here the pros and cons because you are actually in the relationship as opposed to those of us just reading about it, just make sure you clue in DBF (the D standing for whatever you like! )before abruptly kicking him out. Talk to him, explain why you need help, not just now when you're busy, but all through the year.

Different people have different tolerance levels. If he's not bothered by dishes in the sink, maybe he assumes that you aren't either. If you come home yelling at him about it, he might just chalk it up to another rough day at the office, not seeing the seriousness of the situation. This isn't just a male trait - I've had similar fights with (female) roommates before, when one of us wouldn't speak up about something until it just boiled over into a huge fight over which way to hang the toilet paper or something equally minor.

Like I said, you're the best one to know whether it's time to leave the relationship, but this is a high-stress time for you, and just ending things now won't help either of you in the long run. Vent to us, talk to him, then see what happens.

Signed,
The girl who lives alone and can easily make sweeping judgements ;) :D

ETA: I missed the post where you had said you had previous (calm)conversations with him. My "talk first" philosophy stands, but I'd just add saying that if this behavior continues, he's outta here, you're not dating anymore, whatever consequences you want. Make it clear why this isn't going to work anymore.

[Gilgamesh37]

I'll second Oskie's comment, and emphasize two things:

this is a stressful time, so while it's fine and good and right to be thinking about this, bear in mind that right now may not be the best time to make a big and bascially irrevocable decision

But also:

despite all the calm talks before, make sure that DBF understands fully the degree of the problem. IOW, sit him down and say "we've talked about this before. It's not getting any better. You have said you intend to do whatever chores you feel like and the rest are mine. This isn't fair to me and it is not acceptable to me in our relationship. Please understand that I don't consider this a minor matter. We need to get it solved because it has the potential to end our relationship."

I say this because I had myriad begging pleading discussions with my XH (on different topics, not dishes) over the course of several years. When nothing changed and I finally told him I wanted a divorce, then he broke down and siad he would do anything I wanted. Um, like any of the dozens of things I asked you to do during all those conversations before? And that you not only refused to do, but derided? Despite all I had said and despite how clear I felt I had made the gravity of the situation, he didn't "hear" that. Really my only regret is that I didn't know that and I didn't try harder to express the seriousness of the situation in a way that he would hear.

[singsbythesea]

Two things.

First, you will never change him. :o Repeat! :o You will never change him. This does not mean that he is awful or evil, it just means that YOU will never change him. Make that your mantra. Granted, he could and should help around the house, but why should he when he's got you around to do it all? AND - you can only complain and vent about it for so long. He's got it made; you are the one who is unhappy with it. So I agree with whoever said that ultimately you are the one who will have to decide to either live with it or leave it to save your own sanity. Please don't take this as my being rude, I'm just telling it like it is. I'm rootin' for you!

So secondly, stop doing things for him and see how it goes. Don't make his lunch one day and when he walks out the door with that puppy-dog "but I'm gonna be hungry!" look on his face, just smile and give him a kiss and nudge him lovingly out the door. Let the dishes pile up and get all smelly and gross and while he's hovering over you wondering what's for dinner, announce that since there are no clean dishes, you'll be taking yourself out to dinner and while you're out, you'll be getting a pedicure. See what happens.

Seriously, relationships are about compromise and communication. If he doesn't have the common decency to help you out during your busiest and most stressful time of year (especially if all he's doing is playing the trumpet and watching TV), and especially since he's seen you go through it before ... he's not gonna change anytime soon.

Your expectations are never too high, you just have to either find someone who works into those expectations, or learn to live with someone who doesn't.

Good luck, and happy tax season! :)

[Chefzhat]

Boy, I'd stop making his breakfast and lunch for him, that's for sure. And perhaps re-think some other "services" ;)

Sorry, Jamie. He's being totally rude. You should decide what you will put up with. If this is okay with you, then grit your teeth and load the dishwasher. If this sort of thing really drives you bananas, then better broom him fast. If he's showing this kind of disrespect for your home, one wonders what kind of disrespect he's showing you?

Ms. C - you are a quick draw today!

[Vanessa]

You have gotten good advice. I agree times of stress are not good to make big decissions. You are tired upset and most likely frustrated and mad. Since you have tried to discuss your point with BF I would try one more time outside the house getting his full attention, no distractions. When I get upset and vent I want DH 's full attention. Once I let out how I feel etc for one I feel better (load off my chest) second I try to be specific of what is bugging me. And third I include DH in the discussion (if not it becomes more a monologue or "sermon") Then I bring out alternatives or ideas for example in your case you can bring up how HE can help you since you have limited time. After yrs of marriage I have learn at times men don't like to be told what to do and definitelly they hate nagging.
You can bring up a possitive conversation and discuss the real issues at hand. It sounds like his behavior really annoys you (don't blame you some things you said would make me angry too)this is very stressful times for CPA (DH is one) so...for now try to get time for you. BF sounds like he can fix his food etc. The dog thing is totally inconsiderate. About it being your house yes but you are BOTH sharing your lives. He might resent the "my house" thing at times.
Personally I would wait AFTER tax season to make any major changes (like ending the relationship) in the meantime do what you can and I would specifically tell him you are short on time and need his cooperation. I am sure at sometime in his life he had to take care of himself dogs and all so...maybe its time he helps around the house more.
I don't know why when I reread your post I got like a feeling he might just be acting this way for another reason?
After tax season I would take time analyze this and decide where your relationship stands.

[pattyp.]

I agree with what Grace says. It seems to me he has a good thing going. He gets lunch, dinner, laundry done, housework taken care of etc. Think long and hard before you marry him, he sure won't change then and when the pitter patter of little feet arrive how much help do you think you will have then? If you have been together for a year and a half and he is still the same, take a clue Honey.:eek:

[Grace]

I'm going to add more. Sorry! :D

You two are not equals in this relationship, and I believe from the limited info I have that this is his way of asserting himself to you. It's YOUR house, and he knows that. This is why he has no vested interest in keeping it nice or clean. He also probably feels like you're holding that over his head somehow (even if you're not, my DH felt like that when he moved in here and I didn't ever tell him "it's MY house!"), and then they purposely become stubborn because they can't stand feeling "second class" (for lack of a better term), or like they're being used. He may not even realize that he's feeling/reacting like that. When DH and I were dating and he'd come over here, he never really helped me much because he thought at the beginning that I might be using him to get stuff done. Without a commitment he wasn't much interested in investing much of himself into my home.

In defense of AD, I too believe in not living together before marriage. I say that now, even though I did live with my 1st husband before we were married and with another boyfriend (whom I never married) for 7 years. I learned lessons from what I consider to be mistakes in my life, and I didn't live with my current husband before getting married and it's been a completely different (and 1000 times better) experience. Assuming you date someone for quite awhile, you can get a very good idea of what kind of person they are without living with them. Sure they can put on an act for awhile, but not forever.

When DH and I got married and he moved in here, a big bone of contention between us was this house. He was SURE I was never going to let him feel like it was his place (since I bought it before we even met), and he was worried I would try and trump him on every decision regarding the house. He wanted to sell it and move to something new. I didn't. We actually argued about that for several weeks (buying this house was a HUGE accomplishment for me and I didn't want to give it up). Anyway, I gave in, and decided that I loved the man more than the house (I really did and still do). Once we spent time looking at what we would basically have been trading down to, HE decided it was better we stay here! I was overjoyed. I love this house. But in return, and without him asking, I immediately arranged for a refi on the house and got his name on the mortgage and on the title. And then I told him do whatever he wanted around the house (as far as redecorating, I mean). He didn't do much. Just knowing that he could without any bitching from me was all he really wanted.

So I think there's a whole lot more to his unhelpfulness than just being lazy or spoiled. I think it's defiance and asserting his (what he considers) limited power over you. And the more you "boss him around" (again, from his perspective), the less he will do. Unless there's a real incentive, he'll never change.

[PAMMELA]

Good advice Grace. Sounds like you may have hit the nail on the head.

[kima]

Well said Grace!
Your DH seemed at home when I was there! Heck, I felt at home while I was there! I love that house and can't imagine you any where else!


I find the whole idea of leaving a list of chores for my DH to do very strange and would never do it. I can just imagine how he would react!:D When the dishes need to be done he does them. etc. etc. We have always each done our fair share around the house and as a stay at home dad my DH knows as much about childcare as I do!
In this case though maybe a list would be a good idea- at least to get things started in the right direction. Hopefully after that he will start to do things as a matter of course.

[jem927]

Thanks again!

Grace - I have to agree with what you have said about "my" house vs. joint ownership. Perhaps there is more to it than what meets the eye. He has taken on projects (like painting) in the house, which I had hoped would make him feel more "at home". But at this point in our relationship, I am not about to refi MY investment to make him feel more comfortable. He and I had previously discussed buying a house (vs. my townhouse) but he doesn't seem to have a realiste expectation of what we can afford in the areas we would buy a house. In addition, up until this point, I haven't seen him "saving" his money to add to a downpayment for a future house. It has been more of "we can sell the town house and move into something bigger". Well, given the financial situations that contributed to my first divorce, there is no way I'm going to just sign him on to half of my money.. NO WAY! So, letting him paint, hang pictures, etc.. has been my way of addressing the "holding it over his head" possibility.

As for leaving a list, a good idea, but I have to wonder how much he would actually do. If I do go with this, I feel like it will be an "ultimatum" type situation where I am waiting for him to screw up. He knows what needs to be done, he just chooses not to do it.

Another gross example of his habits (I found this today when I came home)... I had previously mentioned that I personally thought it was disgusting to walk thru the bathroom in the middle of the night with my bare feet, and find toenail clippings on the floor.. YUCK!!! He would never clean them up, until I would clean the floor. SO, what did he do??? He apparently clipped his toenails yesterday downstairs on the couch and left the clippings on the couch! HOW DISGUSTING!!!!! AND RUDE!!!!!! To me, that tells me that he feels darn well at home... I'm sorry, I don't care who's house it is, I would NEVER do something like that!

As for moving in together.. It just sort of happened. Both of us have been married before, and didn't want to commit to something without a test run, if you will. And the finances of it worked at the time - it benefited both of us. Would I do it again? Probably not. But those are lessons we learn over time.

The thought of marrying this person, and having kids truly scares me. I have kicked it around in my head, and based on his behaviours, I really think he would be the selfish person he is today, and the kids would be my responsibility. This is supposed to be a partnership, and that includes the sacrifices that are made while raising children, not just making a donation, as you could say. So, at this point, children are out of the question. Yes, I would love to have them. Yes, I feel my clock is ticking (35yo). But no, I am not going to jump into something just for that reason.

Ah..... more venting.....

Thanks again!

Jamie

[Grace]

Originally posted by jem927
But at this point in our relationship, I am not about to refi MY investment to make him feel more comfortable. He and I had previously discussed buying a house (vs. my townhouse) but he doesn't seem to have a realiste expectation of what we can afford in the areas we would buy a house. In addition, up until this point, I haven't seen him "saving" his money to add to a downpayment for a future house. It has been more of "we can sell the town house and move into something bigger". Well, given the financial situations that contributed to my first divorce, there is no way I'm going to just sign him on to half of my money.. NO WAY!

Oh, Jamie! I'm so glad you're saying no to that idea! I in no way intended me saying I put my DH on my house as any kind of advice for you to do the same, or as a way to make him feel "more comfortable" (he seems plenty comfortable already, if you know what I mean! :rolleyes: ) - I had already married my DH when I did that, we weren't just dating, and I would never, ever (as you say) sign anyone on to half of my money without the committment first. No way. So I'm in full agreement with you on that one, and apologize if it sounded like I was advising you to refi your place to make him happy :eek: !

It sounds to me like your mind is now made up, so good luck - it won't be fun, but think of it as making room for the right one to come along! Every minute you spend with this guy is one minute less with the RIGHT guy! :D

[mst]

((Jamie)) That sucks. I am happy for you that you know what you want, and are willing to go after it.

That being said, if you are still considering staying with him, I would want you to think about what YOU are getting from the relationship. Not all things are equal, but do you feel like he is doing something great for you that makes you want to stay.

My DH has never, ever, ever mopped our floor. I don't even think he knows where the mop is. Yet, when our walk needs to be shoveled, we never even discuss the fact that it is a DH chore- he knows there is NO way that I am going outside. I am a home body, so I do most of the stuff inside the home, and he is a trooper, doing things outside the home. I will often call him from home, and ask him to stop by the supermarket on the way home (even though I could leave our house and do it.) He will happily go, knowing that he will get a good meal out of it. Point being, we each do different things for the relationship. You both just have to be happy with it.

And, although everyone has gross habits, that one is pretty bad. And, he knows it bothers you...

[wallycat]

You have gotten some great advice already and my heart goes out to you.
I agree that it seems the relationship and the happiness of it has fallen on your shoulders.

I agree...things do not change and won't need to change after you are married; why should they?

You have a few ways to play it....
1. explain to him how upset and frustrated you are and that things ARE going to change ...and if not, he can look for a new place to live.

2. Accept the fact that you will be forced to hire a maid or BE the maid your whole life with this guy.

3. Play "uncle" and leave the house as a junk pile and do only what YOU want to do around the house (as he has elected to) and see who screams "aaaaaaackkkk-it's a pig sty!!" first. See how he enjoys living in it. I don't think it is that he doesn't know what needs to be done, I think he fails to see how much time it takes to get things to look nicely.

I could tell you stories about the guy I was engaged to and my tactics, but you shouldn't have to use tactics. He should care enough to understand and hear you.

[Ms. Chevious]

Originally posted by wallycat
I could tell you stories about the guy I was engaged to and my tactics, but you shouldn't have to use tactics.

But that sounds like it might be a good story! :D

[sharon kopenski]

I have to add my 2 cents. Like everyone has said, "You can't change him", but he can decide to change if he wants to. If he values you and your relationship, he will do whatever to make the relationship work. He needs to know that you are unhappy and you need change or it won't work. The difficult part is taking care of yourself and making sure that you hold fast in your beliefs. Counceling would help but you don't have time right now. Develope a plan.....what you will do this week and next and next month and when tax season is over. Write it down!!!
All of this advice is from a 58 year old divorced woman who was married for 17 years to a man who"didn't get married to do my own wash". I kept making excuses and thinking I was unreasonable and that if I were just better then he would get better. The clincher is that I am now married to a man who is a quadriplegic. He can't do housework but our home is clean. He pays for the housekeeper, he runs all the errands(he drives), he makes all the phone calls and if he spills something, he calls the neighbor kid to help him wipe it up or he grabs his long handled mop. Now that is love and more importantly RESPECT.
Don't put up with less than you deserve Good luck. Taking care of yourself is so hard.

[kima]

Sounds like you got yourself a real gem Sharon! :)

[rosie_one]

o.k. one more thing... This might be hard for him to swallow too. I agree with Grace in that he may feel like he is perching in your life rather than living his own. I can tell you, as a SAHM who is very dependent on my DHs salary for my lifestyle, that it's not easy to feel like you don't have much control over your life in that way. It was very hard for me to switch after my DD was born to that sort of "supportive" partner. Things had been VERY equal between us before that. We worked the same hours at equally intense jobs and made about the same amount of $, split the chores 50/50 etc... Not that we aren't still equals, obviously we are, but I don't have a tangible value on my worth and he does and in some ways he works much harder on a day to day basis than I do, at least he has more immediate stress... if that makes sense.

However, it took me a long time to realize that I needed to pick up the slack when he was especially busy. It's very easy to get into a pattern and when it's not in your face (you are largely absent this time of year to him, I expect). And to sulk and feel generally bummed when you feel like the job is more important than you, that person at home, are.

Just a thought. If he's unwilling to talk and compromise, then it probably is over, but you might want to think about the fact that maybe he just misses you and the things that you do for him become even more important to him when you aren't around much. They show him that you still care and think about him even though you aren't there to say it.

[jem927]

Everyone has provided some great advice here. THANK YOU ALL!

I have decided that this weekend, he and I are going to have a sit down conversation about what is going on, how I feel about it, and what I think needs to happen - at least to get the conversation going. I'm going to propose making a schedule of things that need to be done on a weekly/monthly basis so that everything is right there in black and white. Then we can try to break it down as to who will be doing what.

If that doesn't work, well, I'm sorry to say, the fun is over. I can't continue going on the way I have been with this. I can't continue to be the one who handles virtually everything in the household, and works all the extra hours too. I do need some me time as well, you know. If it was me alone, well, I would deal with it, but on the other hand, there wouldn't be as much to do. Cooking for one takes alot less effort than it does for two, for example.

As Sharon said, I have to take care of myself in this thing too.

Thanks again! I'll keep everyone posted as to how it goes!

Jamie

[Wendy w]

I have been lurking on this thread and am delurking to wish you the best with the situation. I am a big believer in boundaries. I hope that you can either resolve the issues or move on before you invest any more time in this relationship.

[Beth]

I hadn't read this thread until now, but I agree with what has been said and will add one thing my mom and grandmother told me about men when I was too young to understand -- men are not likely to change as they get older; they only become more so. Seems to be a lot of truth in that.

I wish you well -- this weekend and through the season (yes, there is something to be said for not making rash decisions right now, but if you're working that hard, the change might be easier now that later when you would feel even lonlier). Sounds like you are coming to believe that this is not the love of your life, not a soulmate, and not a team player. That last one is so important. You don't know what kind of changes life my throw your way, and if you're not on the same team, playing for each other it only gets harder.

Good luck, and take care of you whatever happens.

[Molli526]

Good Luck Jamie. I hope things work out for you :)

[Kay Henderson]

(((jem)))

If things don't change enough to suit you and yet you decide that the pluses of the relationship outweigh the minuses, I strongly agree with jmarie that you should seriously consider hiring a house cleaner or a similar service -- at least once a week and perhaps more often. If your funds are separate, you should both contribute.

People argue that they cannot afford it. I can only speak from my own experience. Both my DH's and my mother did not work outside the home. During our own working lives, my DH and I were both teachers. It did not seen unreasonable to either of us to hire a person for one half day a week to thoroughly clean the house and we much preferred to live slightly more modestly to make it happen. One way I looked at it was that we both worked 10 half-days a week for a total of 20. (This is not counting extra work evenings and weekends.) Reducing our spendable income by 5% to hire someone for 1/2 day a week, was a small price to pay for greater harmony and a calmer life.

It sounds as though you are being proactive in facing a situation which has become intolerable. Good luck to you!

Kay

Last thought -- It sounds like during tax season, a personal chef service wouldn't hurt either.

[jmarie]

My little lady just cleans for three of us. It is more of a chance for her to get out of her own home and earn some bucks as it a, cleaning job. I don't have mine do major cleaning. But she makes the beds, cleans the mirrors, dusts and vacumes each room Washes the dishes, shes cleanes the counter tops and cleans out the refriderator. Cleans the baths and dining area. Dusting and moping.she is usually here about 4 hours and I give her 40.00 for 4 hurs work .She stops andgoes outside to smoke a cigarette every once in awhile and if she wants a snack or a drink, she stops and helps herself to it. Most of the time we work side by side. She is very pleasant to work with. She isn't pushed does what she can and then I do the rest,after she leaves. And at that point I feel like I have gotten a fresh look on life! I know it will look ok for two or three days and sometimes it lasts a little longer.

It works for us. I felt used, but since Phyllis, I don't. I am more aggressive about cleaning when she is around...it just makes it so much easier...Fewer squabbles. If I get time off and I wanna do something outside the house, I can because I don't feel guilty about having to stay home on a /Saturday, you know? It frees me up to go do something fun with him.

Nope he wasn't going to change....and yes we alsmost threw in the towel, but thigs now, are better than they have been in our entire marriage, so look what I would have missed out on. He was well worth waiting on!
Joyce:D