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View Full Version : Gas up today. FYI



jmarie
08-30-2005, 10:09 AM
I have a friend who works for one of the refineries in Texas. I received this message from her this morning. (However it was too late for us, as the gas had already jumped from 2.44 a gallon to 2.59 a gallon. )

Her message is as follows:
Joyce, I just talked to Lee. Ya'll need to go fill up ALL your cars right now! Colonial pipe line which feeds most of the east coast is down and they don’t know when it will be back up! Go get gas.

PurplePotato
08-30-2005, 10:15 AM
Jumped 10 cents here in the last 12 hours.

Just filled up for $2.79 - at the discount station! :eek:

It is now costing the same to fill up my Saturn as it used to for my Tahoe.

funniegrrl
08-30-2005, 10:16 AM
When I came to work this morning the price at the gas station I pass had gone up something like 12 cents since yesterday. May be too late ...

LaraW
08-30-2005, 10:16 AM
Joyce, be glad you don't live here 'cuz gas is $2.59 and is expected to jump 10-12 cents/gallon.

I was actually out last evening, and found a place where I could fill up for *only* $2.49, and even though I still had 1/2 a tank I topped it off.

blazedog
08-30-2005, 10:26 AM
Well consider yourself lucky because I just paid $3.17 a gallon -- on the other hand, I am experiencing schadenfreude at all the metropolitan "cowboys" in their tank-like SUV's driving alone since it must be costing them close to $100 to fill up. :)

What I have noticed in the last few weeks (not hurricane related) is the burgeoning cost of fresh produce -- the fuel costs impacting both the farmers and the trucking industry. I was in a not primo grocery store last weekend and pluots were $4.99 a pound. And also there aren't particularly great sales on produce which is not a good sign -- I live in Southern California and this is the height of the growing season when produce is typically very cheap and usually marketed as a loss leader.

erinl
08-30-2005, 10:36 AM
Ah, lovely. We're driving to Ohio tomorrow. I filled up on Sunday for 2.67 and haven't been out of the house since then to see what's going on. I imagine it's pretty close to $3.

ellielk
08-30-2005, 10:47 AM
Ah, lovely. We're driving to Ohio tomorrow. I filled up on Sunday for 2.67 and haven't been out of the house since then to see what's going on. I imagine it's pretty close to $3.

Erin, You can check out the gas prices at www.gasbuddy.com. Right now, in Columbus, they're not looking too bad.

Personally, I think that the oil companies are using this as an excuse. And, if we all try to cut back on driving and use less gas, they'll raise their prices to make up the profit difference.

Am I a cynic, or what?

bobmark226
08-30-2005, 10:55 AM
-- on the other hand, I am experiencing schadenfreude at all the metropolitan "cowboys" in their tank-like SUV's driving alone since it must be costing them close to $100 to fill up. :)


Yeah, and I'm really feeling badly for the mother of four who was on TV complaining that she's now "forced" to carpool. :rolleyes:

Bob

Wendy w
08-30-2005, 11:06 AM
Well consider yourself lucky because I just paid $3.17 a gallon -- on the other hand, I am experiencing schadenfreude at all the metropolitan "cowboys" in their tank-like SUV's driving alone since it must be costing them close to $100 to fill up. :)

What I have noticed in the last few weeks (not hurricane related) is the burgeoning cost of fresh produce -- the fuel costs impacting both the farmers and the trucking industry. I was in a not primo grocery store last weekend and pluots were $4.99 a pound. And also there aren't particularly great sales on produce which is not a good sign -- I live in Southern California and this is the height of the growing season when produce is typically very cheap and usually marketed as a loss leader.

Another Southern CA resident here. I have noticed the same thing. :mad: :mad: :mad: Last week, I bought "bargain" gas :rolleyes: for $2.67 a gallon. They spoke of it going down (what a wild coincidence) after Labor Day, but now I think differently. We Southern Californians have to have a "special" :rolleyes: seasonal gasoline blend with a "special" premium price tag. Rant over.

On a positive note, I am sooo glad that I dumped my Kia last year and got my Corolla. :)

greysangel
08-30-2005, 11:12 AM
Thank goodness for public transportation :cool:

swquilts
08-30-2005, 11:13 AM
I'm with Blaze, I just saw 2.85 per for cheapo unleaded. Unfortunately we are going to So Cal for the Nascar race, towing our trailer with a diesel pickup. DH topped it off last night at 3.11 a gallon.

I'm telling you, this gas price thing is a racket and I'd sure like to know who's in charge..... :mad:

Maybe now Bush will let go with some of the reserves.

bobmark226
08-30-2005, 11:17 AM
Maybe now Bush will let go with some of the reserves.

Maybe now some of you will start looking at electric bikes like I am! :p

Bob

blazedog
08-30-2005, 11:18 AM
Because of air pollution, California has particularly high gas prices -- by the way, for the record, I am in FAVOR of those regulations for the record as it's a small price to pay for the much cleaner air now.

Here's an interesting article on price regulations from today's LA Times.

California Watches Hawaii's Effort to Cap Gasoline Prices
By Elizabeth Douglass
Times Staff Writer

August 30, 2005

With chronically high pump prices straining its laid-back ethos, Hawaii embarks this week on a radical experiment to cap gasoline prices, a move being keenly watched nationwide by legislators and consumer groups eager to rein in record fuel costs.

Interest will be especially high in California, a unique market that some experts liken to Hawaii's because of the high prices charged by gas stations and big profits reaped by a few in-state refiners.

This week, state Sen. Joe Dunn (D-Santa Ana) will reintroduce legislation that would give the California Public Utilities Commission the power to regulate gasoline prices.

"Hawaii is taking the absolutely correct approach to the gasoline industry," said Dunn, a strident critic of energy companies. "The more states that follow Hawaii's lead, the sooner we'll be able to force this industry to get back to normal market behavior that benefits the consumer but also allows them a reasonable profit."

How the caps, which take effect Thursday, will alter Hawaii's gasoline market remains a mystery. Lawmakers are hoping that the new system will curb price surges and spur competition among service station owners. However, there already are signs that the new caps might not lower prices for island motorists — at least not immediately.

For starters, Hawaii's limits don't apply to the retail prices that consumers pay at the pump. Instead, the caps will be placed on prices charged by gasoline wholesalers Chevron Corp. and Tesoro Corp., which own the state's two refineries, and a range of smaller companies that act as middlemen, buying fuel in bulk and delivering it to service stations.

The law's proponents believe that capping wholesale prices will reduce the profits of refiners without hurting retailers, whose gasoline margins are relatively small. Even though gas stations aren't obligated to pass along any savings from the price controls, backers hope that "somebody will break ranks" and not pocket the entire amount, said Scott Foster of Advocates for Consumer Rights, one of two consumer groups that helped shape the gas cap law.

"It's a grand experiment, and my hopes are very high," Foster said. "If this bill works here [in Hawaii], there are a lot of other states that are watching it and might do likewise."

Cap opponent Fred Hemmings, Republican minority leader in the Hawaii Senate, said the law was "making Hawaii a laughingstock of the nation." He has called the price control effort "ludicrous" and "foolhardy," and said of the bill: "We don't need it and it won't work."

Oil industry executives warn of unintended consequences, including gas shortages.

"We don't know what is actually going to happen. We've never been faced with this before," said Albert Chee, a spokesman for Chevron Corp., which operates one refinery in Hawaii, sells fuel through 60 stations and has 60% of the Hawaii gasoline market. "We have tried to put forth as much information as we could gather … to convince them that this was not necessary."

Kevin Mattos, a taxi driver in Hilo on the big island of Hawaii, hopes the new setup works.

"The gas [price] is really killing us," said Mattos, who said he and other cab drivers pay the fuel bill for their daily rounds. "We have just two refineries, and they've pretty much got us over a barrel — an expensive barrel."

At Lina's Leis in Honolulu, Sonny Le is not sure what to make of the coming price caps: "Some people are saying it's going to be worse, and some people are saying it's going to be better."

The flower shop's suppliers have raised fees for deliveries to offset higher gasoline costs, which average more than $3 a gallon in some parts of Hawaii. But Le said competition was too fierce to risk boosting the store's prices to compensate.

"It's getting really bad," he said.

Hawaii, despite its relaxed image, turned out to be the natural spot for the nation's most aggressive attack on gasoline prices. The cost of gasoline there is often the nation's highest by as much as 40 cents a gallon.

Critics say that the state's gasoline prices tend to rise along with fuel prices elsewhere in the country, but don't retreat when prices fall in the continental United States. That pattern became a sore point after a state antitrust lawsuit against Chevron revealed that the oil company's Hawaii operations were far more profitable than similar facilities on the mainland.

In 2002, the Legislature passed a wide-ranging law that included controlling the retail and wholesale price of gasoline. But a backlash from retailers and warnings by outside consultants about the sweeping nature of the restrictions caused lawmakers to revise the law in early 2004 to, among other things, eliminate the retail controls.

Chevron and Tesoro argued that limiting prices would artificially depress profits and discourage them from investing in and expanding their facilities. Republican Gov. Linda Lingle tried unsuccessfully to have the final version repealed.

Under Hawaii's complex new plan, the wholesale gasoline price caps will change weekly and will be tied to fluctuations in the cost of regular gasoline on spot markets in Los Angeles, New York and the U.S. Gulf Coast. The spot market is where refiners and others can buy last-minute fuel supplies.

The caps, a maximum that wholesalers are allowed to charge, are calculated using a five-day average of the spot prices to establish a "baseline price." Regulators at Hawaii's Public Utilities Commission then boost the base price by 28 cents to 62 cents a gallon to account for differences in delivery costs and other factors, resulting in eight price zones.

The first caps, made public Wednesday, set the lowest of the limits for Oahu, home to Honolulu. Wholesalers on Oahu, where most of the state's fuel is sold, can charge up to $2.158 a gallon. After adding about 58 cents in federal, state and local taxes, the implied retail price would be at least $2.74 a gallon.

The effects on consumers will depend on what gas station owners do. If wholesalers charge up to the maximum price and dealers stick with their usual markup of 12 cents a gallon, then the cost of gasoline for Oahu could be as high as $2.86 a gallon for regular.

That's above Monday's record-high average retail price of $2.823 a gallon for Honolulu, according to a survey by AAA. Hawaii's statewide average pump price for regular was $2.899 a gallon, California's average was $2.801 a gallon and the U.S. average was $2.603 a gallon Monday, the automobile association said. The law places no price restrictions on diesel, jet fuel or fuel oil.

John Felmy, chief economist for the American Petroleum Institute, worries that Hawaii's price controls will distort the gasoline market and could cause fuel shortages and lines at the gas pump.

"I've got grave concerns," Felmy said. "I thought we had learned this lesson 25 years ago."

Gasoline price limits haven't been tried in this country since the early 1970s, when runaway inflation and the Arab oil embargo caused oil and gasoline prices to soar. President Nixon responded with a raft of price controls that included gasoline and oil.

There were fuel shortages and lines at gas stations in some areas as oil companies shifted supplies around in a nation accustomed to cheap and plentiful gasoline. The price controls were lifted in 1981.

Since then, "we've had people say, 'Why don't we?' " Felmy said of gasoline price controls. "But no other states have tried it."

"In general, you have to have a pretty serious market power concern before you go down this road [of price controls], because the chances of causing shortages and causing gas lines are quite significant," said Severin Borenstein, director of the University of California Energy Institute in Berkeley. "Hawaii seems to have designed this so it's much less likely to happen, and Hawaii has a credible argument to be made that they face a significant market power problem."

Consultants and others have described the Hawaiian gasoline market as an oligopoly, because the state's two refiners have the power to significantly affect prices throughout the state.

The last time gasoline price controls were considered in California was in 2003, when Dunn first introduced his bill to put the state Public Utilities Commission in charge of gas prices. The idea grabbed headlines when Lt. Gov. Cruz Bustamante, who was running for governor, proclaimed his support. The proposal died almost immediately.

In many states, including in California, the sale of gasoline is covered by broad laws that prohibit unfair business practices such as selling products at below-cost prices to drive competitors out of business. Some states, such as hurricane-prone Florida, also have laws that prohibit price gouging for gasoline and other items during a state of emergency.

About a dozen states, including Colorado, New Jersey and Wisconsin, have singled out gasoline in controversial statutes — sometimes called minimum-price or fair-marketing laws — aimed at protecting independent gas stations from below-cost pricing by Wal-Mart Stores Inc., Costco Wholesale Corp. and other big-box retailers.

Frank Young, a member of Hawaii-based Citizens Against Price Gouging, said he would not be alarmed if prices go up when the caps kick in.

"This law was not intended to guarantee lower prices. It was to guarantee that consumers would get fair prices," said Young, a former Chevron dealer. "If [the prices] go up now, that's fine … as long as they go down when everybody else goes down."

slknight
08-30-2005, 11:46 AM
Thank goodness for public transportation :cool:

And telecommuting. :D

Escher
08-30-2005, 12:43 PM
Maybe now Bush will let go with some of the reserves.

Brilliant thinking. Cut down our reserves at a time of world instability so your trips to the mall don't cost so much.

Think, girl, THINK!

DeeK
08-30-2005, 04:39 PM
Gas jumped 21 cents here right after lunchtime. I was lucky to find a station that had the old price ($2.52/gal. regular) and filled up my car 1/4 tank and the gas bucket for the mower.

I didn't save all that much, but every bit helps. By the time I was leaving the station cars were beginning to line up.

fci5767
08-30-2005, 04:44 PM
I paid $2.92 on the way home from work today. Of course I was cursing at myself since I saw a station at $2.68 when I left school but didn't think to look at my gas gauge.

Yuck. This has to be my home visit week. We get reimbursed but not nearly enough.

swquilts
08-30-2005, 04:57 PM
Brilliant thinking. Cut down our reserves at a time of world instability so your trips to the mall don't cost so much.

Think, girl, THINK!

The mall is the last place I'd go (I'm not a shopper)

....getting to work is another story. :(

I also read on CNN.com that

"The story is all about oil," said Michael Englund, chief economist with Action Economics. "This is still a fluid situation but we have enough information to feel comfortable lowering our economic growth estimate even further."

"Without the hurricane we had perceived a bounce in U.S. oil inventory,' Englund said. "But if refineries are out of commission because of damage or flooding for an unspecified period of time, it will shock the entire system and I expect firms will hold back their production."

Now, why would firms hold back production when we need it most?? I also find it strange that every August one or more refineries go "down" or get refurbished causing prices to rise.

MISSINDI
08-30-2005, 05:09 PM
Most of our clients are oil refineries, so we've definitely been watching all these stories with great interest. I filled up my car yesterday ... $65! The most it's been all summer. The gas attendant has been waiting for it to get to $70 for me to fill it up ... ugh. Luckily dh's job pays for all gas expenses. :D

Sugar
08-30-2005, 05:21 PM
I live in Calgary, Alberta, Canada - I just checked my handy website - tells me the cheapest and most expensive places in the city to buy gas.

Since we work in liters here - I did the conversion for you:

Cheapest - convered into American $$ - $2.73 / gallon
Most expensive - again converted into American $ - $3.21 / gallon

Alberta is big time oil industry - just like Texas - and I work for an Oil & Gas company and we are also watching the price of oild rise - with the long weekend here - we know the price of gas will only stay high.

tperes
08-30-2005, 05:36 PM
I called my sister this afternoon to tell her to fill up fast. Gas prices jumped almost 20cents since yesterday.

Lucky for me, I have a 2003 turbodiesel (very good on the emissions) which is getting anywhere from 39-42 miles in the city. DH is going to clean up the injector (or something) this weekend so we can get at least 45-50 mpg. However, it still cost my $33 to fill up. Ouch! Okay, gloat over...please don't throw tomatoes (although w/ the prices these days, what would be cheap to throw?) ;)

misskitty100
08-30-2005, 05:40 PM
Hopefully the link below will work for most of us....it tells the price of gas at various gas stations within a zip code. Just put in the appropriate zip code in the top right hand corner.


http://autos.msn.com/everyday/gasstations.aspx?zip=98052&src=QL

swquilts
08-30-2005, 05:45 PM
Sung to the Oscar Meyer weiner song

Oh, I wish I owned a Toyota Hybrid......that is what I truly want to own. :rolleyes:

Abby
08-30-2005, 07:56 PM
Meanwhile thousands of people have lost their homes on the Gulf Coast. Gas prices seem very insignificant today. :(

jmarie
08-30-2005, 08:16 PM
It's because of what has happened in the south, that we have todays prices. The thing that concerns me is that these high prices equate into shortages. We need to start strategizing...

tperes
08-31-2005, 08:30 AM
It's because of what has happened in the south, that we have todays prices. The thing that concerns me is that these high prices equate into shortages. We need to start strategizing...

Exactly. A sinlge storm, albeit a catastrophic storm, has caused 90% of our oil refineries to shut down, and many pumping stations to do the same. Something we have to remember is that oil will always be in short supply, it is NON-RENEWABLE! We really need, now more than ever, to turn our attentions to alternative fuel/energy sources.

I teach a course in Environmental Archaeology. One of the main themes of the course is "What can we learn from past human/environment interactions?"
Something that has been shown over and over through human history, is that very complex civilizations have, in part, perished because of their inability or lack of desire, to change and innovate new ways to supply the basic necessities of life. The Maya and other groups in the SE US (prehistorically) deforested huge tracts of land. Now, this is just one of the factors that played a role in their demise. I could go on and on, but I won't! ;)

It all boils down to this...people that buy hybrids or fuel their cars on veggie oil and/or biodiesel, or that want to live "off the grid" are not crazy, freaks, or weirdos. They are seeing the bigger picture, the day when oil is at such a premium, it will not be for the commoner.

Okay, I'm getting off my soapbox. This is a topic I feel VERY strongly about.


Let's turn our attentions to the matter at hand...helping all those poor people to the south that are living this tragedy...

Member10000
08-31-2005, 08:34 AM
Meanwhile thousands of people have lost their homes on the Gulf Coast. Gas prices seem very insignificant today. :(

AGREED!!!!

Pony
08-31-2005, 08:46 AM
AGREED!!!!

I keep getting concerned about gas prices, checking out how much it is at this station and that station......then it hits me and I think I'm sooo glad right now this is the only thing I have to worry about. Hearing all those stories broadcasted on NPR while I'm driving to work just chokes me up inside.

Michelle
(paid 2.57/gallon yesterday, now it is 2.71/gallon)

bobmark226
08-31-2005, 08:56 AM
It all boils down to this...people that buy hybrids or fuel their cars on veggie oil and/or biodiesel, or that want to live "off the grid" are not crazy, freaks, or weirdos. They are seeing the bigger picture, the day when oil is at such a premium, it will not be for the commoner.

Okay, I'm getting off my soapbox. This is a topic I feel VERY strongly about.




Don't get off it, Tanya, move over for me! Everyone here has been asking me about getting a license, a car, when I move, and I've pointed out to them that I've purposely tried to find an area where I wasn't car dependent (but still rural). And I wasn't kidding when I said I'm looking at electric bikes, which run about a thousand dollars, for everyday use. I also checked out longer transportation options and found a van that runs to the malls in Kingston, sponsored by the county, that will literally drop me on my corner.

Whenever I visit out-of-town friends, I'm appalled to see how they automatically jump into their cars to go just a couple blocks for just a loaf of bread or a gallon of milk!

Bob

tperes
08-31-2005, 09:17 AM
I think it is awesome Bob, that you can still rely on "alternate methods of transportation" (i.e., not buy your own car), even after moving out of the city. I really miss living in Gainesville, FL, where I could bike to school and work, to the grocery store, etc. Not necessarily b/c they were all close, but b/c the town was very bike-friendly. I wish more places, especially college towns, would get the hint. Not only is biking good for the environment, but it is good for health. I never had a weight problem in Gville, but now, I don't bike 6 or more miles a day, and it is an issue. I am seriously going to talk to DH about considering a smaller house close to campus so I can bike into the office. That way only one of us has to commute, and that person can use the highly efficient (by today's standards) vehicle.

Oh, and now that I think about it, yes we are fortuante that our only problems today are high fuel prices (vs. those dealing with the hurricane aftermath), but this is exactly the time and situation when we, those that can do nothing but sit glued to the TV watching all the broadcasts (mostly b/c we are not prepared nor trained to go and help out), should open this dialog. We need to take our anger and worry and turn it into something positive. Imagine if we didn't depend on oil as much? The hurricane damage would be more localized, and we would not be seeing a huge crunch on the pocketbooks of the entire country. This is not being selfish, just pragmatic.

slknight
08-31-2005, 09:21 AM
Whenever I visit out-of-town friends, I'm appalled to see how they automatically jump into their cars to go just a couple blocks for just a loaf of bread or a gallon of milk!

Bob

I'm in agreement with you and Tanya. And I agree that this is appalling. However, I know I do it. There's a small store down the street from me (about .7 miles). We frequently get sandwiches there on the weekends or pick up milk or something between grocery store runs. And we drive it because there are no sidewalks to get there and it's a very busy road. We tried unsuccessfully at town meeting to get sidewalks put in. DH even got up and spoke. And it lost by approx 50 votes because people didn't want to pay for it. It's technically a state road so they refused to put town money into it. :mad: As much as I love my neighborhood, I have been considering moving to a different one that has sidewalks. IMO, city and regional planners need to start considering walkability in their communities. (I'm not trying to place the blame on someone else here but just trying to point out other factors that need to be taken into consideration so we can reduce our need on fuel as a society.)

MISSINDI
08-31-2005, 09:22 AM
Morgan Spurlock did a recent 30 Days show on a group of people that lived "off the grid." I really took a lot away from it. I know I drive an SUV and that doesn't help, but I do what I can in other small ways. It's quite an eye opener to see what affect how we live has on our environment. No need to get off your soapbox, tperes. :D

That said ... gas was $3.20 on the way to work this morning. :(

linsleyd
08-31-2005, 09:36 AM
Just a heads up, my DH went for gas this morning and the gas station was out of gas. The man said in West Chester (outside Philadelphia) all the stations were having problems getting gas. I ran out a few minutes ago to fill up and it was $2.98. Unbelievable! Go fill your tanks now!

Yesterday we were in Central PA for a funeral and on our way to lunch gas was 2.47 and when we left lunch gas had gone up to 2.59.

tperes
08-31-2005, 09:43 AM
Morgan Spurlock did a recent 30 Days show on a group of people that lived "off the grid." I really took a lot away from it. I know I drive an SUV and that doesn't help, but I do what I can in other small ways. It's quite an eye opener to see what affect how we live has on our environment. No need to get off your soapbox, tperes. :D

That said ... gas was $3.20 on the way to work this morning. :(


Missindi -- where might I acquire a copy of this show?

3.20 -- OUCH!

I hadn't thought about running out of fuel, although I did hear on NPR this morning that some companies said they would have trouble meeting customer demands for gas and fuel.

greysangel
08-31-2005, 09:54 AM
Don't get off it, Tanya, move over for me! Everyone here has been asking me about getting a license, a car, when I move, and I've pointed out to them that I've purposely tried to find an area where I wasn't car dependent (but still rural). And I wasn't kidding when I said I'm looking at electric bikes, which run about a thousand dollars, for everyday use. I also checked out longer transportation options and found a van that runs to the malls in Kingston, sponsored by the county, that will literally drop me on my corner.

Whenever I visit out-of-town friends, I'm appalled to see how they automatically jump into their cars to go just a couple blocks for just a loaf of bread or a gallon of milk!

Bob

I'm with you Bob. People are amazed that Chaz and I dont have a car. My Curves is 6 blocks away and I always have women wanting to give me a ride home :eek:

MISSINDI
08-31-2005, 09:55 AM
Missindi -- where might I acquire a copy of this show?

It airs on the FX Channel. You can get to his show here (http://www.fxchannel.com/shows/originals/30days/main.html). Then on the bottom left, "Episode Guide," click on the Off-the-Grid one for more info.

bobmark226
08-31-2005, 10:00 AM
I'm with you Bob. People are amazed that Chaz and I dont have a car. My Curves is 6 blocks away and I always have women wanting to give me a ride home :eek:

LOL, JeAnne. We have a women's gym on the second floor of this building with stairway access. Can I tell you how often I've shared an elevator up and even down with women who come to work out? :confused:

There's been a lot of coverage about what the Brits and Europe pay for gas, in excess of five dollars a gallon. They've wisened up already though. Anyone watching reports on this can see the many ways they've already de-autoed themselves into a bike/walk society.

Bob

linsleyd
08-31-2005, 10:07 AM
I wish where we lived was better equipped for a lifestyle like the Europeans. Unfortunatley, it is next to impossible. Public transportation does not go near my work or to the grocery stores. And DH is a contractor so he kind of has to drive around.
I would almost prefer if I worked in the city because once we finish our house we're a block from the train station.

tperes
08-31-2005, 10:15 AM
It airs on the FX Channel. You can get to his show here (http://www.fxchannel.com/shows/originals/30days/main.html). Then on the bottom left, "Episode Guide," click on the Off-the-Grid one for more info.


Thanks Missindi. Unfortunately, I don't see it on the schedule? I guess I will have to find someone that has both cable (I don't) and a VCR to record that particular episode for me. I would love to show it to my class.

Beth
08-31-2005, 10:30 AM
Have any of you who would not otherwise been filling up stopped to consider that your rush to fill up before gas goes up another quarter or even 50 cents is adding to the problem? This is a temporary crunch, and panic will only intensify it -- both in terms of creating a short supply and in terms of justifying a bigger price hike. Use what you need, but don't take more than you need. Do without where you can.

HealthyinMN
08-31-2005, 10:59 AM
Have any of you who would not otherwise been filling up stopped to consider that your rush to fill up before gas goes up another quarter or even 50 cents is adding to the problem? This is a temporary crunch, and panic will only intensify it -- both in terms of creating a short supply and in terms of justifying a bigger price hike. Use what you need, but don't take more than you need. Do without where you can.

The local news has started reporting here in Phoenix that a handfull of stations are out of gas already. Although they say "We don't want to panic anyone - but get out and fill up your tanks now!" :rolleyes:

jtoepfert100
08-31-2005, 11:32 AM
I'm with you Bob. People are amazed that Chaz and I dont have a car. My Curves is 6 blocks away and I always have women wanting to give me a ride home :eek:

I am considered eccentric in Memphis because I walk everywhere. People here are extremely dependent on their cars. Daily, I see people get in their cars and drive one parking lot row over to go from one store to another in a shopping center.

Oh, and Bob, I hear you about the elevators. Our restroom is out on our floor so we have to use the one either one floor up or down. Every single person on this floor besides myself is using the elevator to do this. :rolleyes:

linsleyd
08-31-2005, 11:37 AM
Have any of you who would not otherwise been filling up stopped to consider that your rush to fill up before gas goes up another quarter or even 50 cents is adding to the problem? This is a temporary crunch, and panic will only intensify it -- both in terms of creating a short supply and in terms of justifying a bigger price hike. Use what you need, but don't take more than you need. Do without where you can.


Understandable and good to do; unfortunatley I had an empty tank since I had forgotten to fill up when we got back into town last night. If I hadn't needed gas I wouldn't have gone out of my way to fill up.

clairea
08-31-2005, 04:30 PM
I had to fill up today as I was almost on empty -- fortunately I managed to do so while it was still only $2.69/gallon. DH just called and told me that there are gas lines at all the gas stations in downtown Atlanta, and that he has heard some of the stations in the suburbs are selling gas for $4.59/gallon. I am going out to pick him up from work in a few minutes and have to admit I am a bit intrigued -- I don't think I have ever seen a gas line before!

Claire

blazedog
08-31-2005, 04:36 PM
The news is reporting $4.00 gas as being the norm -- at least in the Southeast -- for at least the next 4 - 6 months based on current wholesale prices which still haven't leveled off.

The issue isn't just people driving around -- it's a major hit to the economy because so much industry is dependent on fuel -- not to mention farmers who use it to farm and the entire transportation industry which moves goods around the country. It's bound to have pretty disastrous ripple effects on the entire economy -- not to mention the news which was sort of hidden that poverty has increased for the 4th or 5th year and that real incomes are down -- all this before the major hit to people's purses on gas as well as higher prices on all sorts of consumer goods like fruits and veggies almost immediately.

JenZen
08-31-2005, 04:40 PM
Geez. Wisconsin must be one of the more expensive states.

At noon, we saw a hike up to $2.99 a gallon in central WI.

My dad said northern WI is at $3.15.

ClaraB
08-31-2005, 05:14 PM
Gas prices here have gone from $2.65 on Monday to $3.15 today - ouch! I wonder how much of this is just oil companies doing a bit of gouging?

luv2run
08-31-2005, 05:19 PM
Exactly. A sinlge storm, albeit a catastrophic storm, has caused 90% of our oil refineries to shut down, and many pumping stations to do the same. Something we have to remember is that oil will always be in short supply, it is NON-RENEWABLE! We really need, now more than ever, to turn our attentions to alternative fuel/energy sources.
Do you really think we will look toward alternative fuel/energy sources when our leader is a "Texas oil tycoon". I agree with you that we do need to look away from oil and that Katrina did not cause this problem but I just do not see the current leadership of our country looking away from oil/gas.

Debbie ;)

Go ahead, throw the tomatoes--I'm ready-- :p !

AndreaU
08-31-2005, 05:20 PM
Gas prices here have gone from $2.65 on Monday to $3.15 today - ouch! I wonder how much of this is just oil companies doing a bit of gouging?

Yeah, I wonder, too. The gas station where I usually fill up was $2.75 at 10am and when I passed it at 4:00 it was $3.15!

Laurielee
08-31-2005, 06:32 PM
I was just talking to somene I work with about this, and he was wondering why is Calif gas going up, since we refine all of our own gas, and as usual has to be special because of our laws, our gas stays in Calif and with the special refining requirements. Our gas has always been higher because of this than the rest of the country. And that the hurricane shouldnt affect our prices. that its the refineries in the gulf out of commission driving the the rest of the countries prices higher where they get their gas from

I did find regular at one place today for $2.90, everyone else is over $3

laurie

blazedog
08-31-2005, 06:46 PM
I was just talking to somene I work with about this, and he was wondering why is Calif gas going up, since we refine all of our own gas, and as usual has to be special because of our laws, our gas stays in Calif and with the special refining requirements. Our gas has always been higher because of this than the rest of the country. And that the hurricane shouldnt affect our prices. that its the refineries in the gulf out of commission driving the the rest of the countries prices higher where they get their gas from

I did find regular at one place today for $2.90, everyone else is over $3

laurie

Can anyone say ENRON and rolling blackouts and do we really think all that just disappeared in a whoosh of corporate noblesse oblige. :D

boisewinesnob
08-31-2005, 07:31 PM
Aaack. And everyone makes fun of our small (45mpg) car. Guess we'll be laughing at them now :p

(well, not laughing too much, as we still have to buy gas too--just not as much as all our neighbors w/ V8s)

jmarie
08-31-2005, 07:46 PM
Our gas just went up another 40 cents a few minutes ago. We are now paying $2.99 a gallon.

Melman
08-31-2005, 07:59 PM
My son called me around lunchtime today. He's in a college town. On Sunday, gas was $2.39. On the way to class this morning, the same place was $2.79. On the way home from class (only a few hours later), it was $2.99.

By the afternoon, everyone was calling everyone they knew with the story that the price of gas was skyrocketing and that the stations were running out. Nobody seemed to know when they next shipments would arrive. I admit, I topped off the tank. Not knowing when I'd be able to get gas the next time is the reason I joined the line.

On the way home tonight, one station had $2.97 and had a relatively long line (I don't know if I've ever seen more than one car at that station). The next station was out of gas.

Public transportation is not an option around here. I'd have to drive to get to the closest bus-stop (if there's even still a bus-stop there). This area is not set up for public transportation at all. FORTUNATELY, I only live 6 to 7 miles from work.

tbb113
08-31-2005, 10:20 PM
Actually only one or two stations here have jacked their prices. Guess they figure since I'm already paying $2.89 a gallon, there is no need.

If you need a laugh....

http://toccionline.kizash.com/films/1001/178/index.php

pilgrim719
08-31-2005, 10:21 PM
Checking in from the Capital District here in NY...Three gas stations right near me, and as of 6:30pm today not one of them had any regular gas. Just super-premium left. :( The price for regular, had there been any, was $3.19 - $3.31, but the super premium I had to get was $3.39. Ouch! Sure wish I could bike into Albany! My father is driving a pickup truck towing a camper from central NY home to Indy tomorrow, and I can't imagine what the trip will cost him in gas. But I am thankful that this is the only way that Katrina has affected me and my family!!

Kari

MaryH
08-31-2005, 10:55 PM
Missindi -- where might I acquire a copy of this show?

3.20 -- OUCH!

I hadn't thought about running out of fuel, although I did hear on NPR this morning that some companies said they would have trouble meeting customer demands for gas and fuel.

Kind of OT, but for another "off the grid" reference check out The Traveler by John Twelve Hawks.

stefania4
09-01-2005, 07:39 AM
Whenever I visit out-of-town friends, I'm appalled to see how they automatically jump into their cars to go just a couple blocks for just a loaf of bread or a gallon of milk!
That's what I miss most about my old neighborhood - we could so easily walk to a casual restaurant or a nice-date restaurant or a supermarket etc.

Our new house is located within walking distance of a few things, but the route is not at all pedestrian-friendly. There are no sidewalks and lots of 6- and 8-lane roads with tons of traffic, and a dangerous section that I wouldn't be willing to walk through. That leaves me with having to drive, so I try to make all trips as efficient as possible.

jtoepfert100
09-01-2005, 10:09 AM
It's up to over $3.00 a gallon here in Memphis with reports from co-workers of gas stations being out and long lines elsewhere. Part of our problem may be that there are people coming up here from Mississippi to purchase gas in large quantities to take back to towns in MS that have run out completely. I worry about these people driving with open 150 gallon drums of gas. Memphians are known for being the best drivers. However, I also think that people here might be going into panic mode and getting gas even when they don't necessarily need it because they are afraid of costs going up more and more shortages. I am thankful that we have an itty bitty car that DH only uses to go back and forth to work. $10.00 in gas lasts us well over a week (or at least it used to).

Grace
09-01-2005, 10:29 AM
I paid $3.20 yesterday and to me, it's not really that big of a deal. A tank lasts me probably 2 weeks. The dollar more per gallon that I'm paying now translates into $12 for my tank (a 12 gallon or so tank). That's $6 week, less than a case of pop, or 2 Starbucks coffees. I'm not being bankrupted by $6. DH uses probably a tank a week, so that's an extra $12 a week for him which is roughly $50 extra a month. While I'm not happy to shell out an extra $75 a month (the extra cost of gas for both of us), everything evens out. I just changed my cell phone plan and am saving $25 a month there, my DSL went down from $49.95 a month to $29.95 so that's another $20, and my AOL went down from $14.95 to $7.95. And those are just three things I could think of off the top of my head. We also quit drinking pop (not because we wanted to save money, but because we decided pop is unhealthy and we want to drink more water), so that saves a good $16 a week. I figure I'm about even just on those few things. If I needed to cut back other things, I absolutely could.

I realize there are people who live on a much tighter budget than I do, and I realize there are people who depend on gas for their jobs, but I don't think the average person is going to be bankrupted by higher gas prices. And as far as Europe paying $5 a gallon, this has been true since forever - it's not new for them. It's been $4 or $5 a gallon for at least 10 years, and they still manage.

Lastly, I haven't seen a single line for gas here, nor have I seen a single station that said they were out of gas. So perhaps we get our gas up here in Chicago from somewhere else other than the Southeast (where production and distribution are still normal), or there's just a lot of panic going on down there that isn't up here. I don't know.

I'm just getting very tired of the whole "Henny Penny The Sky is Falling!" fear mongering that's fueled by the media. They love to dramatize absolutely everything, and while there are plenty of terrible things going on all over the place, the way they portray things gives everyone such a terrible uneasiness and I think, exaggerated sense of fear.

blazedog
09-01-2005, 10:40 AM
The problem (beyond personal budgeting) is the domino impact on the economy -- everything will go up in price which impacts consumer spending (which has been driving economic growth), job formation (which is stagnant at best). The cost of heating oil will go through the roof which means a very hard winter for lots of people -- heat is not discretionary.

Escher
09-01-2005, 10:44 AM
So, Blazedog do you think that environmental regulations should be temporarily relaxed to ease production?

ReneeV
09-01-2005, 10:58 AM
...it's not always a practical alternative. Even when you live in an area with ample public transportation. For years we lived with one small fuel efficient car (a Staturn) and did very well. But we did need that one car. It wasn't possible for us to live completely car-less, even in the Eastern NJ, greater NYC area.

My husband commuted to NYC by train and subway daily, but I didn't have that opportunity. I had an infant and toddler that needed to be dropped off at child care with all they accompanying "tools of the trade", plus my own supplies that I needed to tote daily back and forth to work and home. It wasn't practical to get on busses and trains and transfer etc. with that amount of stuff. Not to mention that I would have had to walk the last mile or so to both destinations. Not difficult in and of itself, but try it with a baby and toddler at 8 a.m in the pouring rain. But I will say, we were able to fit 2 child car seats in that small car and did not feel the need to have a big mini van or SUV. We have no family in this area and travel frequently to the Midwest, so renting a car every time isn't practical either.

Having said all this, I now live in the town I work in and more often then not walk to work and other downtown destinations. I find I like the freedon of not depending on a car... My kids live near their grade school and when they get just a bit older, will be able to walk to and from school with no supervision. I think that's just great! The bigger problem is all those areas in the U.S. that have inadequate public transportation. There are vast areas in the mid west where there is no practical train or bus system. You either walk or call a cab, if you don't own a car.

My point, I guess, is that we do need to look for renewable, sustainable fuel sources to power our cars and heat and light our homes and businesses. I hate our dependence on a source we can't supply ourselves. Don't even get me started on the political ramifications of this ...

Anyway, as nice a thought as it might be to picture a car-less society, it's not going to happen. But that doesn't mean we can't make the current car -driven society a little more bearable.

Renée

Grace
09-01-2005, 11:04 AM
My point, I guess, is that we do need to look for renewable, sustainable fuel sources to power our cars and heat and light our homes and businesses. I hate our dependence on a source we can't supply ourselves. Don't even get me started on the political ramifications of this ...


Oh, Renee, I completely agree with you on this! I know the technology exists or could be found relatively easily to make cars that don't need gasoline. I know that the oil industry and their lobbyists would die though before they'd ever let such technology become a reality. And that's not the fault of any one president or political party. This is something they could have been doing/working on for YEARS - heck, look at all the things they can do now with satellites and space travel and medicine and on and on. So it's been many years of politics and policy that put us where we are today. Pathetic.

Laurielee
09-01-2005, 11:24 AM
"So, Blazedog do you think that environmental regulations should be temporarily relaxed to ease production?"

Escher, I just heard Bush say this this morning, so that must mean our strict gas regulations here in CA are no longer in effect? How does it help lifting epa restrictions to get more gas, other than our gas can now be shipped out of state I am assuming?

One thing I was disturbed by Bushes speech this morning, is Diane Sawyer asked him if he thought America should conserve and he said yes, but didnt make a big deal of it. I think he should have put a strong message across to America to do everything possible to TO CONSERVE, he made it sound like these refineries were going to be up and running in no time, at least thats my take on it.

Laurie

pmmahan
09-01-2005, 11:27 AM
Did anyone see this mock-umentary on FX a couple of months ago?

A little freaky if you ask me.

http://www.fxnetworks.com/shows/originals/oilstorm/main.html

blazedog
09-01-2005, 11:34 AM
So, Blazedog do you think that environmental regulations should be temporarily relaxed to ease production?

Do you REALLY think that environmental protections are the cause of oil shortages. Why do you feel the need to post these kinds of things instead of engaging in some sort of meaningful dialogue. I don't find your reasoning to be cool and reasoned -- nor do I find it to be annoying. I find it to be usually stupid if not beside the point and generally posted just for the sake of being provocative and tiresome.

The issue of energy is very complex -- There are FAR better ways to cut down on usage other than beginning to pollute the environment again -- all kinds of conservation measures which HAVE NOT been adequately addressed including funding for mass transportation which people can actually use as opposed to the niggardly funding now in place. What about subsidies for bus routes in rural America -- many of these places were only served by Greyhound which cut down on a number of routes.

bobmark226
09-01-2005, 11:38 AM
In fact, Bush stated in his interview with Sawyer this morning that they intended to relax mixed fuel standards.

On the other hand, when asked if the oil companies might be willing to take a decrease in profits, he avoided a direct answer and did a neat little song and dance about how all Americans should do their part. I think he meant you and me and not Exxon.

Bob

RunnerKim
09-01-2005, 12:04 PM
I was wondering what the word was on gasoline usage. We have a camping trip planned this weekend that's about a 75 mile drive each way. Certainly something we could not do.

We don't need (our own supply) gas to get about our daily lives. We do take public transit (so they need gas obviously) and we can walk the mile to our bus stop. We currently drive as we take 2 young kids with us but we can plan around that. Grocery store is within walking distance. So I'm personally not too worried.

A couple of stations near our house were out of regular gas yesterday (although they left their prices posted - making them look like the good deal and I suppose hoping once people had stopped there would simply say to fill them up with the premium grade(s)).


Kim

jtoepfert100
09-01-2005, 12:41 PM
In fact, Bush stated in his interview with Sawyer this morning that they intended to relax mixed fuel standards.

On the other hand, when asked if the oil companies might be willing to take a decrease in profits, he avoided a direct answer and did a neat little song and dance about how all Americans should do their part. I think he meant you and me and not Exxon.

Bob

This is exactly what I thought when watching. In fact, it appeared to me that the whole thing was a song and dance. Not one question was answered directly. I was irritated that I watched it.

Escher
09-01-2005, 03:21 PM
Do you REALLY think that environmental protections are the cause of oil shortages. Why do you feel the need to post these kinds of things instead of engaging in some sort of meaningful dialogue. I don't find your reasoning to be cool and reasoned -- nor do I find it to be annoying. I find it to be usually stupid if not beside the point and generally posted just for the sake of being provocative and tiresome.

The issue of energy is very complex -- There are FAR better ways to cut down on usage other than beginning to pollute the environment again -- all kinds of conservation measures which HAVE NOT been adequately addressed including funding for mass transportation which people can actually use as opposed to the niggardly funding now in place. What about subsidies for bus routes in rural America -- many of these places were only served by Greyhound which cut down on a number of routes.


You didn't answer the question. No, I don't think that enviro regulations are the _cause_ of the problems. I ask, because as some of the more current-events astute have noted, that is what the EPA has recently done. It was just a question, unclench.

luv2run
09-02-2005, 04:26 PM
This is exactly what I thought when watching. In fact, it appeared to me that the whole thing was a song and dance. Not one question was answered directly. I was irritated that I watched it.
That's his method of operation on many issues, a song and dance, never a direct answer to questions.

To address those posts which imply that one person could not possibly cause all the current problems--I realize he may not personally cause catastrophic events but he has made many, many decisions that have led to catastrophies! Bill Clinton had to take more responsibility over his affair with Monica Lewinsky than our current president is taking with the current state of events.

Debbie

jmarie
09-02-2005, 04:29 PM
Gas $3.05 now.

Suffice it to say that we have all known for about 5 years now, that GW isn't the most eloquent speaker around. And suffice it to say that out of his mouth could roll wisdom straight from God and there are those of you who would still scoff.

And I am as sick of your scoffing as you are of hearing his "Song and Dance"
The ONLY reason you listened to him, was to pick apart what he had to say.

The world according to Joyce.

newcook
09-02-2005, 05:06 PM
Gaz prices in Montreal today were $5.82 per gallon, some places the price is higher, some places the price is lower, but it is rising every day.

MISSINDI
09-02-2005, 05:33 PM
Two gas tidbits from the news this morning. They had one guy who was charging $5.87 a gallon, when everyone else around him was in the $3 range. Reporter asked him why he was charging so much, and his response was that he hoped if he priced it higher, people would buy less and he wouldn't run out.

A NJ gas station changed their price 3x in one day, which is illegal.

tperes
09-02-2005, 05:48 PM
I cancelled my trip home to see my husband, even though I have only seen him for 12 hours in the last 4 weeks (and he was grieving and on his way to his grandmother's funeral). I do this despite the fact that I drive a very efficient (by today's standards) vehicle that runs on diesel. It wouldn't cost more than $50 to make the entire trip (both ways), but I think I should not take diesel that might be better used by fire trucks, ambulances, buses, or 18-wheelers that are taking supplies to the hurricane refugees. Do I feel holier-than-thou? Especially those that still decided to drive their SUV's to the away-game of our university's football team? No. But I know I feel better about myself, and my small (in comparison to what is going on down south) sacrifice.

Remember, think locally, act globally. Small sacrifices, when added up, make a huge difference.

Have a great and safe Labor Day weekend! :)

blazedog
09-02-2005, 06:11 PM
Gas $3.05 now.

Suffice it to say that we have all known for about 5 years now, that GW isn't the most eloquent speaker around. And suffice it to say that out of his mouth could roll wisdom straight from God and there are those of you who would still scoff.

And I am as sick of your scoffing as you are of hearing his "Song and Dance"
The ONLY reason you listened to him, was to pick apart what he had to say.

The world according to Joyce.

I am not finding fault with his speeches -- I am finding fault with his lack of leadership. He is the President -- for pity's sake, can you stop being an apologist for just one fricking time. He IS the man in charge who CAN order things to be done and he SHOULD have done so on Tuesday morning -- bottom line.

And if you want to talk about speaking -- I very rarely find that someone who has clearly articulated thought processes is unable to express those clearly articulated thoughts. I believe what you hear is what you get with our President.

luv2run
09-02-2005, 07:39 PM
Suffice it to say that we have all known for about 5 years now, that GW isn't the most eloquent speaker around. And suffice it to say that out of his mouth could roll wisdom straight from God and there are those of you who would still scoff.

And I am as sick of your scoffing as you are of hearing his "Song and Dance"
The ONLY reason you listened to him, was to pick apart what he had to say.

The world according to Joyce.
As far as I can tell, this board is free for us to express our opinions. As for you being sick of that opinion, I guess that's too bad. I will stand by my comments proudly. If even you can admit he's not an eloquent speaker, there must be some truth to my opinion. I really don't have to listen to him to pick his speeches apart, as every one sounds just like the one before--lots of empty promises. Furthermore, the only reason you must listen is to take his word as the gospel--also pretty narrow-minded.

If you can, tell me three good things W has done for our country.

Debbie

For the record, I'm glad I don't live in the world according to Joyce.

jmarie
09-02-2005, 08:19 PM
As far as I can tell, this board is free for us to express our opinions.
True. You are free to express yours. I forgot I am not allowed to express mine. So sorry I forgot that. Carry on.
Joyce

lindrusso
09-03-2005, 08:18 AM
Two gas tidbits from the news this morning. They had one guy who was charging $5.87 a gallon, when everyone else around him was in the $3 range. Reporter asked him why he was charging so much, and his response was that he hoped if he priced it higher, people would buy less and he wouldn't run out.


I posted this on another thread, but it addresses this very issue. This guy might actually be thinking along the right track.

I heard an analyst on FoxNews say something that I never considered before.

The price of gas (gougers aside) is rising because there is high demand and low supply. If you allow supply and demand to set the price, the price goes up and people cut back, thus conserving - which is a GOOD thing if supply is low.

If you artificially lower the price and people don't feel the impact and do not conserve, supplies are further depleted or run out and we're worse off then we were before.

Food for thought. It may be hard on the wallet, but in the end, it seems wise to let supply and demand do its thing.

We canceled our plans to go to a nearby city this weekend (only 40 minutes away) and when we go to get ice cream today, we're walking. We're trying to drive less. Small things, but if everyone did them, they'd add up.

blazedog
09-03-2005, 08:45 AM
I posted this on another thread, but it addresses this very issue. This guy might actually be thinking along the right track.

I heard an analyst on FoxNews say something that I never considered before.

The price of gas (gougers aside) is rising because there is high demand and low supply. If you allow supply and demand to set the price, the price goes up and people cut back, thus conserving - which is a GOOD thing if supply is low.

If you artificially lower the price and people don't feel the impact and do not conserve, supplies are further depleted or run out and we're worse off then we were before.

Food for thought. It may be hard on the wallet, but in the end, it seems wise to let supply and demand do its thing.

We canceled our plans to go to a nearby city this weekend (only 40 minutes away) and when we go to get ice cream today, we're walking. We're trying to drive less. Small things, but if everyone did them, they'd add up.


While I am all for making it painful for people to waste energy, my problem with the Fox analysis is that the money is going to personal profit rather than using it as a way to fund things that might actually lower energy use such as funding for good mass transportation, subsidies or low interest loans for increased insulation etc.

newcook
09-03-2005, 08:58 AM
The price of gas (gougers aside) is rising because there is high demand and low supply. If you allow supply and demand to set the price, the price goes up and people cut back, thus conserving - which is a GOOD thing if supply is low.



The problem with this theory is that supply is low. That is not actually true. All of the major supplying countries have reserves for exactly these situations. This type of situation is exactly what those reserves are for. It has been reported that most of the supplying countries will release some of those reserves. We have had extensive coverage over here concerning the price of gaz because the government taxes on gaz here is somewhere around 30%. There has been a lot of pressure on the government to reduce those taxes. So the government is fighting back by releasing the information that the prices are high because of gauging and releasing information about major companies actual profits compare to this period last year. It is shameful. There is a report here that the government will step in to prevent excessive profit taking at this time, and at the same time releasing reserves. I understand that there is a true shortgage in some areas because of so many people needed to move quickly and all at once. But for the most part, it has been excessive profit taking.

luv2run
09-03-2005, 12:42 PM
True. You are free to express yours. I forgot I am not allowed to express mine. So sorry I forgot that. Carry on.
Joyce
I never said you weren't free to express your opinion--just don't tell me you're sick of my opinion and why I listen to W's speeches. You really don't have to listen hard to pick apart what he says. From my perspective (which is not to believe everthing he says because he is the president), you will find an untruth in every speech.

Debbie