Looters - a new low

[Beth]

This is truly one of the low spots in a sad and devastating story and proof that hard tmies bring out the best and worst in people. The looting itself is bad enough, a cop being shot in the head is outrageous, cops without coimmunication and afraid to do anything because they can't call for help and there arent' enough of them to get control of a crowd that could be armed and turn on them. But what I just heard is a new low.

A CNN reported was talking about how they were deputizing emergency workers to recover bodies in Gulfport, Mississippi. They were telling them that they knew there were bodies in houses that needed to be retrieved, but the worst was that they had seen people walking over these dead bodies looting the houses. He said one cop said he was wanted to shoot the looters on the spot, tag them "Looter" and leave them behind to let justice take it's course. The worst in people is really testing the best in others.

[Gecko]

I couldn't agree more. Where is the humanity in these people? I am just stunned by their actions.

[jmarie]

There are those on the boards, who believe that these people have lost everything and so that anything/everything is fair game. We apparently have not been poor and lost all hope.

The ones I choose to picture are those waiting on buildings and roadways patiently waiting to be rescued after days without food or water. I just pray that help gets to them before death does....because there are so many.

God Bless Texas and others who are reaching out to these communities.
My church has sent a response team down and a tractor trailer has been donated to take our supplies which we will gather after hearing from the response team.

This is the latest email:
Dear Highlands Family,

The people in Alabama, Mississippi, and Louisiana need your help.

In the face of such terrible devastation, God is encouraging us to take action and work together. In the face of panic and rumors the Lord encourages us...

First, do not panic. Jesus says in John 14:27 (NLT): "I am leaving you with a gift—peace of mind and heart. And the peace I give isn't like the peace the world gives. So don't be troubled or afraid."

Second, a team from Highlands Fellowship is on the way to Biloxi, Mississippi, right now to assess the situation. They will be talking to Red Cross officials to determine local needs and, if possible, they will talk with local officials and churches on the ground. Please be in prayer for Alan Buchanan, Deborah Whitt, Everett Bowes, Bob Bayes, Nita McNerlin, Larry Petersek, and Brent Stuart as they make that journey.

Third, in a joint effort with one of our own, (Bob, Karol, Adam, Jeff, Travis and Melissa) of Highlands, we are working to collect and deliver much-needed supplies to the hurricane victims. Maumee Express of Abingdon has donated an 18-wheeler; that 18-wheeler will be in the Highlands Fellowship Administration Office parking lot this Saturday, September 3, from 8:30 - 4 p.m. The items will be delivered to a Red Cross station in New Orleans and will be transported the last fifty miles with a police escort for security. Here is a list of supplies the Red Cross says are most needed:

*Non-perishable, non-cooking foods
*Baby food
*Cleaning supplies
*Flashlights
*Batteries
*Blankets

*Water

Please note: The Red Cross recommends these items be donated in crates or palets; that makes it easier for the relief effort to store and handle. So instead of bringing a bag full of various items, bring a crate of the same item, such as baby food.

[Beth]

There are those on the boards, who believe that these people have lost everything and so that anything/everything is fair game.

Joyce, no one that I have seen is condoning this behavior and that is a totally unfair characterization of the discussion. I think you are pointing to Bob's comment and my further discussion about the fact that some of these people are not acting rationally, are not just taking food or essentials and that their is a psychology of desparation at play.

I think that helped try to understand the irrational and dispicable actions early on. I also think it has gone past the point where desparation is at play and looks like a free for all. The black sector of the population, poor and desparate or otherwise, is not doing anything to help the image of New Orleans or the desire of people to want to help.

In Houston, we have a lot of people from the area here. We want to help, but we don't want folks carrying AK47s and stealing everything in sight coming here. I don't know any place that would.

[Jessica]

I can understand stealing food and baby formula since you cannot buy anything in NO, but vacuum cleaners and beauty supplies? And guns? The Wall Street Journal quoted someone who said she saw nothing wrong in taking things from abandoned businesses as she grabbed a silver platter from a wrecked hotel.

I've never been desperately poor, but I think that saying it is OK to loot non-essentials because you are poor is an insult to the poor and law-abiding people who are trying to help others and not looting or taking advantage of the catastrophe.

[greysangel]

Joyce, no one that I have seen is condoning this behavior and that is a totally unfair characterization of the discussion. I think you are pointing to Bob's comment and my further discussion about the fact that some of these people are not acting rationally, are not just taking food or essentials and that their is a psychology of desparation at play.



I completely agree. I can't believe people ON BOTH SIDES are turning this into some kind of political p*ssing match :( :( :(

[Escher]

http://images.ctv.ca/archives/CTVNews/img2/20050830/160_looters1_050830.jpghttp://images.ctv.ca/archives/CTVNews/img2/20050830/160_looters2_050830.jpg
http://www.torontosun.com/News/Katrina/2005/08/30/looter3170.jpghttp://www.johnandkenshow.com/blogimages/katrina3.jpg
http://img.coxnewsweb.com/B/03/47/08/image_1808473.jpg

I'm assuming there are white/hispanic looters too, but I simply can't find any evidence of this.....

People who are apologizing for these thugs make me vomit.

[lindrusso]

I try to cling to what Bob and Beth have said about desparation, but in the back of my mind I wonder if this is just what happens when people know they can get away with whatever they want? That this is not desparation, but what happens when you lose control and cannot restore order.

Certainly the situation in NO is desparate, but we have seen looting happen many, many other times - in NYC when there's a blackout, for example. There's no hopelessness in a blackout to explain away that behavior. In my mind, those people are simply helping themselves because they know they can get away with it.

Heck, a city winning a stupid sports championship and set off looting and rioting - how do you explain that away?????

So, my point is that looting and dispicable behavior is set off by much less than what is happening in NO, so how much of it can really be explained away by desperation and hopelessness???

Ugh. Reading this horrible stuff is almost worse to me than what Katrina has left behind. Katrina was out of everyone's control for the most part, but what people are doing now IS in their control.

And in the end, they are really stealing from themselves. Their behavior is forcing the city to take away manpower that could be used to help save and rescue people - maybe people they know.

[greysangel]

I dont think anyone is trying to explain away bad behavior. I think that most people are just trying to say not to hold up the bad bahavior example and use it to punish or condemn the rest of that part of the country.

[Escher]

I'd like to point out that the law abiding citizens are the ones who already evacuated.

Those who stayed are already law-breakers, and probably stayed to get a drop on the looting....

The goddamn army or vigilantes should shoot these guys and leave their corpses marked "looter"


NEW ORLEANS — Managers at the Covenant Home nursing center were prepared to cope with power outages and supply shortages following Hurricane Katrina. They weren't ready for looters.

The nursing home lost its bus after the driver surrendered it to carjackers. Groups of people then drove by the center, shouting to residents, "Get out!"

On Wednesday, 80 residents, most of them in wheelchairs, were evacuated to other nursing homes in the state.

[stefania4]

I'd like to point out that the law abiding citizens are the ones who already evacuated.

The people who already evacuated are people who had means - they own an automobile, they were able to buy a bus/plane/train ticket. Not everyone is that fortunate.

[Escher]

The people who already evacuated are people who had means - they own an automobile, they were able to buy a bus/plane/train ticket. Not everyone is that fortunate.

Baloney. You are an apologist. Yes, there are some who couldn't evacuate, but the vast, vast majority of those who stayed _chose_ to stay. I have no mercy for the stupid.

[CompassRose]

Baloney. You are an apologist. Yes, there are some who couldn't evacuate, but the vast, vast majority of those who stayed _chose_ to stay. I have no mercy for the stupid.
That is not what I just read on another board, from a woman who comes from NOLA and is now working with the rescue effort. She says the poverty of people in the shelters is appalling, and she figures that a lot of the kids there are getting their first decent meal ever since being rescued.

Is a poor, probably undereducated person "choosing" to stay with whatever tiny bit of possessions they might have in the world, with little or no income and no insurance, making much of a choice? I wonder.

But like you, Escher, I'm not there and I don't know.

[bobmark226]

So, my point is that looting and dispicable behavior is set off by much less than what is happening in NO, so how much of it can really be explained away by desperation and hopelessness???


I don't think either Beth or I is trying to provide a justification, certainly not for people who grab guns or steal from hospitals or carjack; nor can anyone provide a statistic as to those who take food or other necessary provisions, which, given that there is no food or drinking water available, I see as perfectly acceptable. As I said before, aren't the owners of those stores going to declare total losses? Do you think they'll be any more honest in their claims?

In his interview with Diane Sawyer this morning, when she asked about looting, Bush responded that there would be "zero tolerance" for all looters. Really? Are we back to "Les Miserables" or cutting off a hand for stealing a loaf of bread? Even more galling was the ABC reporter, looking dapper in his military style shirt and khakis, perfectly moussed hair, who'd just been dropped in to do his bit, confronting a man taking beer and asking him if he thought it was right. (It put me in mind of a reporter here who spent a week living as a homeless person, thinking she'd had a real experience, despite the fact she was going home to her cushy apartment with a hot shower a few days later.)

I would appreciate not being tagged as pro-looting, because that certainly isn't the case. I was just suggesting people show a little more empathy where it might be justified and perhaps exhibit a little understanding of certain circumstances.

That's my last word on this. I am personally having a very hard time dealing with the whole situation and would prefer to dwell on what few positives there are, given all the horrors being delivered to us right now.

Bob

[lindrusso]

I am personally having a very hard time dealing with the whole situation and would prefer to dwell on what few positives there are, given all the horrors being delivered to us right now.
Bob

Good idea. :)

Of course the media prefers to revel in the horrors - it would be nice if they would dwell a bit more on the positives. I have to remind myself that our perception of what's going on is almost entirely reliant on the media who can choose to portray the situation in any way they'd like. Not that it isn't horrible no matter what they show, but it would be nice to think that there's more positive happening than what I've seen on the news at this point.

[Beth]

I'd like to point out that the law abiding citizens are the ones who already evacuated.

No, and Hell No. There are some 50-100,000 people they are still trying to get out. Many of them are poor, tired, hungry and just as desparate, and they are not looting or shooting. Law abiding citizens are at risk of dying from lack or water, food, medical treatment and of new diseases because they cannot be evacuated, and now there are folks shooting at the helicopters trying to get those people out! Words cannot express -- I will not post my feeling about those people.

[Beth]

I would appreciate not being tagged as pro-looting, because that certainly isn't the case. I was just suggesting people show a little more empathy where it might be justified and perhaps exhibit a little understanding of certain circumstances.

Exactly. And what was true about people trying to find things of value to barter a couple of days ago is not true about the whole scale lawlessness, the taking of guns, or the shooting at people who are trying to rescue others. Even if we were right about the feelings and psychology of desparation in the beginning, things feed off of other things and change. It has grown far beyond anything that can be tied to survival.

For those of you who have been poor, I've also seen times without income, worried about the future and health care for my kids.....but I've never spent days without food or water while not being able to see or hear anyone trying to help. That's different from eating a lot of rice, beans and mac and cheese. It still doesn't condone what has been happening.

Earlier this week, I was at Target and I bought something that had a rebate at the checkout. The cashier applied it twice, with a manager ghelping her because she sisn't know how to do it. I corrected them, and when the manager had left, the cashier asked me why I didn't just take it. Well, I still have to live with myself and I am human enough without looking for more. I was awaiting the results of a biopsy and another test, and if I had a battle on my hands, I wanted to go into it with full strength and no added guilt. I can try to understand the psychology of desparation at an academic level, but in my heart and soul, I cannnot. I'd give my all to help others in that situation, not steal from them and shoot at people helping.

And on that note, I am taking a cot and other things to help a family staying in our area and going to collect some food and other essentials. I'm living what I believe in, wishing I could do more, and hoping others will find compassion and just try to help everyone get through a terrible situation with as little sniping and heartache as possible. There's been enough loss already, adn there won't be any quick fixes.

[stefania4]

Baloney. You are an apologist. Yes, there are some who couldn't evacuate, but the vast, vast majority of those who stayed _chose_ to stay. I have no mercy for the stupid.No, I'm a realist. Indeed there are people who, for reasons of their own I'll never understand, chose to stay. But the vast, vast majority of the current Superdome inhabitants are simply too poor to be anywhere else.

[MISSINDI]

Perhaps one of the saddest parts is that officials have to focus some of their energies on the looters, as opposed to being able to focus ALL of their energy on continuing rescue efforts and starting to rebuild.

[Escher]

Meh. You are probably right, stefania4. I woke up cranky this morning, and seeing all those looters pissed me off to no end.

I regret suggesting that the majority of survivors were looters... I believe in the capability and morality of the average joe, and blanket statements like that have no place in my philosophy.

However, for those that are taking advantage of the situation, well, I'm sure Dante would come up with a far more creative punishment than I....

I will think of this no more.

[stefania4]

However, for those that are taking advantage of the situation, well, I'm sure Dante would come up with a far more creative punishment than I....Agreed. I have a hard time holding people accountable for looting a grocery store when there's no aid available and no commerce. But the televisions, clothes, DVDs, jewelry.... THAT is Dante territory.

[ellielk]

[QUOTE=Escher][img]
I'm assuming there are white/hispanic looters too, but I simply can't find any evidence of this.....
QUOTE]

Yesterday, a friend sent me a link to two news stories with photos. The one of the black people (they were holding groceries) was captioned about 'looters' in the grocery store. The second of the white people (they were also holding groceries) was cationed about how they'd 'found' the groceries. I deleted the e-mail or I'd post the link.

[Escher]

Yeah, I started just making a collage of looters, and then I noticed everyone was black. I was afraid of being called to task for "cherry picking" w/ racist intent, but these are just the pics that came up first on google.

Anyhow, that's water under the bridge, so to speak.

[ellielk]

Here's the photo of the people who 'found' the bread. Look harder, Escher.

http://news.yahoo.com/photos/ss/1756/im:/050830/photos_ts_afp/050830071810_shxwaoma_photo1;_ylt=ApP5QcrP0wcu0aQL 5zqNsoViWscF;_ylu=X3oDMTA3dmhrOGVvBHNlYwNzc20-

If that link doesn't work, go to Yahoo News, look at the most e-mailed photos. It's #31 of 47.

[blazedog]

Interesting historical perspective from today's NY Times.

September 1, 2005
The Storm After the Storm
By DAVID BROOKS
Hurricanes come in two waves. First comes the rainstorm, and then comes what the historian John Barry calls the "human storm" - the recriminations, the political conflict and the battle over compensation. Floods wash away the surface of society, the settled way things have been done. They expose the underlying power structures, the injustices, the patterns of corruption and the unacknowledged inequalities. When you look back over the meteorological turbulence in this nation's history, it's striking how often political turbulence followed.

In 1889 in Pennsylvania, a great flood washed away much of Johnstown. The water's crushing destruction sounded to one person like a "lot of horses grinding oats." Witnesses watched hundreds of people trapped on a burning bridge, forced to choose between burning to death or throwing themselves into the churning waters to drown.

The flood was so abnormal that the country seemed to have trouble grasping what had happened. The national media were filled with wild exaggerations and fabrications: stories of rivers dammed with corpses, of children who died while playing ring-around-the-rosy and who were found with their hands still clasped and with smiles still on their faces.

Prejudices were let loose. Hungarians then were akin to today's illegal Mexican immigrants - hard-working people who took jobs no one else wanted. Newspapers carried accounts of gangs of Hungarian men cutting off dead women's fingers to steal their rings. "Drunken Hungarians, Dancing, Singing, Cursing and Fighting Amid the Ruins" a New York Herald headline blared.

Then, as David McCullough notes in "The Johnstown Flood," public fury turned on the Pittsburgh millionaires whose club's fishing pond had emptied on the town. The Chicago Herald depicted the millionaires as Roman aristocrats, seeking pleasure while the poor died like beasts in the Coliseum.

Even before the flood, public resentment was building against the newly rich industrialists. Protests were growing against the trusts, against industrialization and against the new concentrations of wealth. The Johnstown flood crystallized popular anger, for the fishing club was indeed partly to blame. Public reaction to the disaster helped set the stage for the progressive movement and the trust-busting that was to come.

In 1900, another great storm hit the U.S., killing over 6,000 people in Galveston, Tex. The storm exposed racial animosities, for this time stories (equally false) swept through the press accusing blacks of cutting off the fingers of corpses to steal wedding rings. The devastation ended Galveston's chance to beat out Houston as Texas' leading port.

Then in 1927, the great Mississippi flood rumbled down upon New Orleans. As Barry writes in his account, "Rising Tide," the disaster ripped the veil off the genteel, feudal relations between whites and blacks, and revealed the festering iniquities. Blacks were rounded up into work camps and held by armed guards. They were prevented from leaving as the waters rose. A steamer, the Capitol, played "Bye Bye Blackbird" as it sailed away. The racist violence that followed the floods helped persuade many blacks to move north.

Civic leaders intentionally flooded poor and middle-class areas to ease the water's pressure on the city, and then reneged on promises to compensate those whose homes were destroyed. That helped fuel the populist anger that led to Huey Long's success. Across the country people demanded that the federal government get involved in disaster relief, helping to set the stage for the New Deal. The local civic elite turned insular and reactionary, and New Orleans never really recovered its preflood vibrancy.

We'd like to think that the stories of hurricanes and floods are always stories of people rallying together to give aid and comfort. And, indeed, each of America's great floods has prompted a popular response both generous and inspiring. But floods are also civic examinations. Amid all the stories that recur with every disaster - tales of sudden death and miraculous survival, the displacement and the disease - there is also the testing.

Civic arrangements work or they fail. Leaders are found worthy or wanting. What's happening in New Orleans and Mississippi today is a human tragedy. But take a close look at the people you see wandering, devastated, around New Orleans: they are predominantly black and poor. The political disturbances are still to come.

[ClaraB]

[
I'm assuming there are white/hispanic looters too, but I simply can't find any evidence of this.....

But haven't you also been struck by the fact that nearly all those left in NO (not just the looters) are also black? I keep seeing rescue after rescue, and pictures around the superdome, and almost everyone in the pictures is black.

[blazedog]

NO is a predominantly black city to start.

The the people who stayed are the poorest and in the South (as is true in most of AMerica, unfortunately) the poor are disproportionate black The people stayed because they lacked financial means to leave the city -- no cars (Greyhound stopped running on Sunday morning), insufficient credit.

Think about how you would be able to evaculate you had no car, no or minimal cash on hand, no credit cards and no public transportation out.

[Escher]

Think about how you would be able to evaculate you had no car, no or minimal cash on hand, no credit cards and no public transportation out.

I would start walking to high ground. And I simply don't believe they couldn't find _any_ other means of transportation...this was known for days ahead of time.

[Beth H]

This horrible headline is currently on CNN:


New Orleans hospital halts patient evacuations after coming under sniper fire, a doctor who witnessed the incident says.

It does seem as though our federal government and the Louisiana state government were several steps too slow to respond to this crisis - right now, it sounds as though the city of New Orleans has degenerated into absolute anarchy and bedlam. It's so hard to imagine that in the United States. Reading descriptions of what it is like in the Superdome is like reading about something out of another place and time (the LA Times has a particularly graphic article on the front page of its web site).

Many of the accounts I'm reading seem to suggest that there just aren't enough authority figures around - not enough National Guard troops - not enough resources. I know its difficult to get resources to NOLA, but surely it's not impossible?


I would start walking to high ground. And I simply don't believe they couldn't find _any_ other means of transportation...this was known for days ahead of time.

Initially forecasters thought Katrina was going to hit the Florida panhandle - it was only a couple of days ahead that people realized it might hit New Orleans. And higher ground? A bit hard to come by in coastal Lousiana. I guess people could have walked to Baton Rouge, which would have taken days. I think New Orelans is (or was) a particularly insular city, with families who have been there for generations. I'm sure it was difficult to imagine leaving the only world you've known (with almost no resources) and walking to the state capitol - for what?

[blazedog]

I would start walking to high ground. And I simply don't believe they couldn't find _any_ other means of transportation...this was known for days ahead of time.

Actually no you are completely wrong as Katrina was headed for Florida until Saturday and was rated as a minor storm until the weekend. THere was barely 24 hours and transportation shut down -- please read some of the news articles coming out on how transportation shut down starting late Saturday night and completely shutting down by Sunday.

If you are going to continue to delude yourself into thinking that you are a paragon of clear logic, at least please have your facts correct.

From all your previous posts, I know you have no heart and the complete lack of any emotional empathy but this post reveals that you also post with insufficient data as to the facts -- so yes, I hope the next hurricane or natural disaster finds you on the road to nowhere without funds, food, water or any idea of where to go where it might actually be better -- but I forget because of your superior brains and divine providence, YOU will never be among life's unfortunates.

[Grace]

I would start walking to high ground. And I simply don't believe they couldn't find _any_ other means of transportation...this was known for days ahead of time.

I agree. DH and I were discussing we too would have hoofed it as far as we possibly could. My brother is homeless and has been homeless for 20 years. You can't get much poorer or more destitute than that. He never steals, not even food (I know because he has no police record in all those years and he told me he doesn't steal - says he can find daily itinerate work to make money for food, or he goes to a shelter), and he manages to get all over the country all by himself without the aid of a car or public transportation. He came home (Chicago) from Washington State 9 years ago. He walked.

Additionally, some of the poorest people you'd find anywhere are among the millions of illegals from Mexico that are finding their way in (certainly not in a car or on a bus), and they're migrating across this country and finding jobs and lives.

I just don't buy into the "it's just not possible" school of thought unless a person is truly incapcitated (lying in a hospital bed or wheelchair bound or something). Those people do exist, but they do not make up the majority of those that stayed behind.

[leebee]

Wow. I've never, ever heard quite so much "Let's blame the victims." Amazing. Hope you are never, ever faced with anything approaching this. Yes, it's wrong to loot. Yes, it's wrong to brandish weapons. Yes, it's wrong to do so many, many things. But to say these people should have just walked on out of New Orleans is the height of hubris. Yes, of course we should condemn wantonly "wrong" acts, but to say that the suffering many people who stayed behind are enduring is just because they weren't smart enough to get out of town. I pray my heart is never that hard. And as far as those who are going to such extremes of violence and thievery--are we to honestly believe they are all operating under completely rational thought? You can pity someone without condoning their actions, you know. Yes, I know there are those who are really "bad" who are doing things beyond evil. But this mass mentality of panic and fear has a psychological effect beyond what any of us not in the thick of it could begin to comprehend. And all of the politicizing of one opinion or the other is simply silly. It boils down to this: A bad thing happened, one of the worst in U.S. history. Things are getting worse, and it is having a terrible effect on people and will for years to come. The region will take years to recover, some of these people may never recover.

[colleency]

So you're saying that every time a hurricane came, and there was an order to evacuate, you would walk out of the city, which if the hurricane did arrive, even if it didn't harm the city, it would probably wash you away. In the past, hurricanes have missed the city or they have hit, but people were safer staying where they were.

How can you know why these people stayed? I've heard lots of different reasons:
police, firefighters, medical personnel, government employees
too sick to travel
too old to travel
no money for transportation
college students who are going to "tough it out"
people that have stayed for every other storm in their 60 years of living there and never had a problem

Sure, I wouldn't have stayed. But I'm a afraid of things like this. I have a car. I have relatives who live in other places. I have money to pay for gas and food. I'm not told to evacuate a couple of times a year.

It's easy enough in hindsight to say that we wouldn't do x or y, but I don't think you really know what you'll do until you're faced with the situation in the same way that the other people are.

It's also odd that all the talk of "I wouldn't have stayed" seems to be coming from people that don't live there. The limited amount I hear from people who did leave before the storm is hoping that all the other people will be able to get out.

[ellielk]

Apparently, Fats Domino and his wife are among the missing. He chose to stay in his house in the 9th ward. Often, older people think it's more important to stay with their 'stuff.' No previous storm has affected NOLA this badly.

And, here's another story that puts some an additional alanton the looting, etc.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050901/ap_on_re_us/hurricane_katrina_28

It's too easy, with 20/20 hindsight, to say what we would have done if we had been in those peoples' shoes. It might be possible to have walked away but for some people leaving their home and belongings seemed more logical to them at the time than leaving. I believe that this is one of those situations where, unless you've been through it, you just can't state with 100% surety what you would or wouldn't do.

Grace, nothing personal against your brother but lack of a police record might just indicate he hasn't been caught - yet. Your point that some illegals are finding jobs makes me wonder why, if your brother can find itinerant work to support himself, why he can't find some permanent work - somewhere in his travels all around the country - and not be homeless. But, that's really a topic for a whole new thread, isn't it?

[blazedog]

And I just waqnt to make one thing clear -- most of the people left behind are NOT looting.

And wow it is astounding how people can justify their lack of empathy - I guess I am just an instinctive "there but for fortune" person while others feel that there is a rational reason why they have escaped an unlucky fate.

Imagine clinging to a roof for several days in the sun in the heat of NO without water -- but I forget, some of these posters lack any degree of emotional empathy -- i.e. the ability to imagine what it would be like to actually be in faced with that situation and I don't think most rational people go on the road with their families and start walking.

And please remember that the storm was downplayed until it was almost impossible to get out. And that until the levees broke, NO thought it had indeed dodged the bullet -- the flooding didn't start immediately.

[JenZen]

Interesting conversation.

I just wanted to add a comment I heard on the news that irritated me.

Something to this effect:

"What we're seeing looks like something from another country. Never did we imagine it would happen here."

I've been hearing a lot of this sort of language, and, frankly, I find it very haughty. Why does American think disaster and suffering are for "poorer" countries? Heck, we make a summer blockbuster every year about some sort of natural disaster incapcitiating the nation. How far removed are we from reality? We, sometimes, feel too safe.

Just saddened me to hear this language. Makes it sound like we're too good for this type of catastrophe, when, in fact, we're as vulnerable as any other geographical locale.

Jen

[blazedog]

Jen,

I have interpreted these third world comments as meaning that the US has always had some kind of infrastructure to at least get relief to people. Here there isn't even a way they have figured out to stop the breach of the levee because there are no roads and large enough boats can't reach where the breach is on Canal Street (I think).

Although I do agree with your thought that we Americans have a certain degree of hubris in thinking that we are beyond this kind of awesome suffering - I think of the Simon & Garfunkle song - American Tune


Words & music by Paul Simon

We come on the ship they call the Mayflower
We come on the ship that sailed the moon
We come in the a-ge's most uncertain hours
and sing an American tune
Oh, and it's alright, it's alright, it's alright
You can't be forever blessed
Still, tomorrow's going to be another working day
And I'm trying to get some rest
That's all I'm trying to get some rest

Here are all the lyrics for people unfamiliar with it to put my quote in context.

Many's the time I've been mistaken
And many times confused
Yes, and I've often felt forsaken
And certainly misused
Oh, but I'm alright, I'm alright
I'm just weary to my bones
Still, you don't expect to be
Bright and bon vivant
So far a-way from home, so far away from home

And I don't know a soul who's not been battered
I don't have a friend who feels at ease
I don't know a dream that's not been shattered
or driven to its knees
but it's alright, it's alright
for we lived so well so long
Still, when I think of the
road we're traveling on
I wonder what's gone wrong
I can't help it, I wonder what has gone wrong

And I dreamed I was dying
I dreamed that my soul rose unexpectedly
And looking back down at me
Smiled reassuringly
And I dreamed I was flying
And high up above my eyes could clearly see
The Statue of Liberty
Sailing away to sea
And I dreamed I was flying

We come on the ship they call the Mayflower
We come on the ship that sailed the moon
We come in the a-ge's most uncertain hours
and sing an American tune
Oh, and it's alright, it's alright, it's alright
You can't be forever blessed
Still, tomorrow's going to be another working day
And I'm trying to get some rest
That's all I'm trying to get some rest

[Jessica]

Let's say for argument's sake that everyone involved had a way out of the city and chose to ignore it, and had perfect information about how dangerous the storm would be, neither of which is actually true. I think death is a pretty high price to pay for a little hubris. NO needs money and compassion--they can do without the judgment.

[Wendy w]

Well put Jessica.

[Escher]

Let's say for argument's sake that everyone involved had a way out of the city and chose to ignore it, and had perfect information about how dangerous the storm would be, neither of which is actually true. I think death is a pretty high price to pay for a little hubris. NO needs money and compassion--they can do without the judgment.


Good philosophy. I can deal with that.

[Jessica]

Here is a link to an AP piece on the ethical questions raised by the looting. The people interviewed say basically what we've said; it's OK to take survival items in a desperate situation but things like TVs and jewelry are in a different category from water, food and medicine.

On an upbeat note, our university here will be taking in college students who were stranded by the storm.

http://www.startribune.com/stories/125/5591408.html

[MISSINDI]

I know the National Guard is helping, but I'm sure they're way outnumbered. Can we not activate some of our Armed Forces (reserves) to assist with bringing some peace to the chaos, so officials can concentrate on continuing the actual search and rescue? Just an honest question...

[Grace]

Grace, nothing personal against your brother but lack of a police record might just indicate he hasn't been caught - yet. Your point that some illegals are finding jobs makes me wonder why, if your brother can find itinerant work to support himself, why he can't find some permanent work - somewhere in his travels all around the country - and not be homeless. But, that's really a topic for a whole new thread, isn't it?

Those are legitimate questions, and I'm not offended. He's homeless because he's schizophrenic. He's not capable of holding a job. Believe me, I tried. His panic attacks are horrible. I can't help him unless he wants help, and his paranoid schizophrenia causes him to distrust anything I want to do for him.

And believe me, his lack of a police record is really because he doesn't steal. Not all homeless people steal. He lived with me for awhile and he was so meticulous about everything (made sure I didn't leave the cart where it didn't belong in the parking lot at the grocery store, restacked the lettuce in the lettuce display after I dug around for a nice lettuce from the bottom of the pile and messed up the display, etc.). He's also so afraid of the police- there were a couple of policemen kibbutzing in the grocery store with the girls behind the service counter. My brother was so paranoid that they were there to pick him up. I asked him why the police would be after him and he said it was for the 2 traffic tickets he had gotten 15 years earlier! I felt so horrible for him that he walked around in fear like that so I went and paid those tickets for him and gave him the proof so he wouldn't have to walk around in fear anymore.

As for stating what I would do? I think I can be pretty sure what I would do. My father walked around Europe as a child with his mother (my grandma) and his brother (my uncle) because they were homeless. They evacuated the town they were in because the Russians were taking over. They weren't rich people - my grandfather was a Baptist minister of all things. He had been hauled away and was in a POW camp. My Dad and Grandma didn't know where he was for FIVE years. They were refugees all over.

I know I (and my husband) have a lot of that survival instinct in me, and I think a lot about "contingency plans" in my head, and what I would do if heaven forbid something should happen. We could have some sort of awful terrorist catastrophe here in Chicago very easily.

As for compassion and empathy for these people, I have plenty. Truly. Just because I don't express any of it here doesn't mean I don't have it. But doesn't personal responsibility play any role in any of this? Or morals or character? Your belief that everyone did absolutely as much for themselves as they possibly could and that the only reason any of them are stealing or looting is because they are driven to it by their circumstances (and not because they're just bad people in general) is as silly as believing that they're all a bunch of irresponsible thiefs.

To say there are no lazy, irresponsible, immoral people in the world is just being blind to reality. Does that mean I'm GLAD these people are in the situation they're in? Does it mean I don't care what happens to them? Of course not. Does it mean I think they deserve what they're getting? No way. But I think many of them can do a little more to help themselves other than walk around stealing AK47's (and shooting them!) and TV's, and all this screaming about what the government is NOT doing for them, and how terrible the GOVERNMENT is for failing at this or at that, and it's all someone else's fault that they're in that situation is just not fair either.

THAT's my point.

[greysangel]

I believe there is military now:

http://neworleans.metblogs.com/

http://www.livejournal.com/users/interdictor/

[Laurielee]

This was just posted by someone on another message board I frequent who was in NO when it hit, I am speechless

"You would not believe what is going on here. The animals you see looting on tv, have made there way to St.Bernard Parish trying to loot, my family went to a red cross shelter in Baton Rouge, where they were turned away because of violence. They are stealing cars from people in Baton Rouge. Contruction equipment has been stolen uptown and they are knocking donw house to loot. I received a text message from my friend who is a fireman and he was shot at trying to put out the fire. It is unreal. I left baton rouge and am now in pensacola, it took me 15 hrs. Gas lines have hundreds of cars in them. The police and fireman are getting no help, especially in surrounding New Orleans areas. All they are worried about is trying to help people in neworleans who are trying to kill them when they get there. Thousands are missing, including some of my family. My friend is in St.Bernard saving people with a boat, he said some went to New Orleans to save people and were robbed of there boat. He even said some are refusing to leave. I don't believe some want help. And know the violence has extended 80 miles west to Baton Rouge. It is crazy that in a time like this people a killing each other."

Laurie

[Escher]

I know the National Guard is helping, but I'm sure they're way outnumbered. Can we not activate some of our Armed Forces (reserves) to assist with bringing some peace to the chaos, so officials can concentrate on continuing the actual search and rescue? Just an honest question...

Mission Creep. I wouldn't recommend it, though given the scale, it might be what is needed. NG is the correct unit for this type of mission. Perhaps Louisiana can "rent" NG units from nonaffected states. Probably couldn't call up the units wholesale, but maybe arrange to lease the equipment and hire the members.

Impractical on such short notice.

[mcgee]

I read where one woman refused to leave because she had a Greyhound dog and the shelters wouldn't allow animals. :( My husband and I both agreed - however stupid it might sound - that we could never abandon our cat in an emergency.

Here's a brief article by Jim Wallis, on www.sojo.net which is also worth reading:
********************
During hurricanes, floods and other natural disasters, those who have the least to lose are often those who lose the most. Why?

First, the dwellings in which poor people live are not as sturdy, stable, or safe as others. "Shotgun" shacks, mobile homes, and poorly constructed apartment buildings don't do well in hurricane-force winds and tidal surges.

Second, the places where poor people live are also the most vulnerable. The rich often live at the tops of hills, the poor in the valleys and plains that are the first to flood. The living conditions in these neighborhoods are also usually the most dense and overcrowded.

Third, it is much harder for the poor to evacuate. They don't own cars, can't afford to rent them, and often can't even afford a tank of gas - especially at today's prices. They can't afford an airplane, train, or even bus ticket. And, as one low-income person told a New Orleans reporter, they have no place to go. People in poverty can't afford motel or hotel rooms, and often don't have friends or family in other places with space to spare. In New Orleans, there were many people who desperately wanted to leave but couldn't.

Fourth, low-income people are the least likely to have insurance on their homes and belongings, and the least likely to have health insurance. If jobs are lost because of natural disasters, theirs are the first to go. Poverty makes long-term recovery after a disaster more difficult - the communities that are the weakest to begin with usually recover the slowest. The lack of a living family income for most people in those communities leaves no reserve for emergencies.

New Orleans has a poverty rate of 28% - more than twice the national rate. Life is always hard for poor people - living on the edge is insecure and full of risk. Natural disasters make it worse. Yet even in normal times, poverty is hidden and not reported by the media. In times of disaster, there continues to be little coverage of the excessive impact on the poor. Devastated luxury homes and hotels, drifting yachts and battered casinos make far more compelling photographs.

The final irony of New Orleans is that the people who normally fill the Louisiana Superdome are those who can afford the high cost of tickets, parking, and concessions. Now its inhabitants are the poor, especially children, the elderly and the sick - those with nowhere else to go. Those with money are nowhere to be seen.

As the Gulf Coast now faces the long and difficult task of recovery, what can we do?
Louisiana Governor Kathleen Blanco declared Wednesday a day of prayer: "As we face the devastation wrought by Katrina, as we search for those in need, as we comfort those in pain and as we begin the long task of rebuilding, we turn to God for strength, hope and comfort." She urged residents in her state to ask "that God give us all the physical and spiritual strength to work through this crisis and rebuild."