What makes a "good" school?

[HRJ]

OK ... the BB ate my last attempt to start a thread, so I'll try again...

I was having this conversation with some folks recently, so thought I'd throw it out here.

When evaluating the quality of a school, what criteria do you -- as parents, educators, taxpayers, etc. -- use? I'm particularly interested in areas that go beyond the scope of standardized test scores.

I was talking with some parents recently whose children are approaching kindergarten age, and was surprised to find that they had widely varying opinions of our local school district. (None of them have kids in school already). It also seems that folks are basing their opinions on very different criteria.

So, since we have such a wide range of experience and expertise on this board, was wondering what you all thought.

Helene

[misskitty100]

For me, a "good" school would be one that reaches all of the necessary testing criteria etc but in addition the majority of the parents are VERY active in the school. The teachers would also be VERY active in the school (outside of their own classrooms).

[RunnerKim]

Helene -- as you know I don't have kids in school yet, so I'm sure my criteria will evolve as that happens. But for now here's some of the things I'd want to know:

How long has the principal been there? How long for the one before that? What kind of leader do they feel they are - are they an instrucitonal leader or an administrative leader?

What about the teachers? How long have they been there?

What are the class sizes? What type of activities are the kids doing in class? How are the rooms arranged - the desks lined up in rows facing the teacher at the front? Are there hands on learning experiences?

What kind of non-core academics are offered - how often is art, physical education, recess, music. Who teaches those classes?

What kind of additional supports do they have for struggling and gifted kids.

Are students tracked or mixed classes. Do all teachers use good ELL instructional practices or do they segrated kids who are learning English.

what does the school look like? Is it clean? Plenty of supplies of the kids? Computers? Computer instruction - is it seperate or integrated (even at the elem level I'd want to know this).

Is the school do any specific school improvement efforts? Even good/excellent schools can be. How much profressional development time do teachers have?

Is Kindergarten full day or half day?

What do the food options look like at the school? Do they have vending machines?

What does the before/after school care program look like?

How active is the PTA? How built in are parent volunteers?

This is just off the top of my head and perpahs is too specific for what you're looking for...

Kim

[Meganator]

I agree that parent involvement is really important. I will throw out another example of what I think is a bad school - the school my stepson goes to (he is in high school).

Their school year is divided into 4 quarters, and they take 4 classes per quarter. Not inherently a problem; however, the scheduling is done such that he took German I in January - March 2005, and he won't have German II until Jan - March 2006! Just imagine when this happens with math classes - I just can't see how they can expect kids that age to retain information for so long - it is bad enough to have to review everything after the summer.

[tbb113]

I don't look to much at the elementary level. I'm more concerned at the HS level (even when my kids were elementary) since I figure the elementary feeds the HS.

1. What percentage graduate?
2. What percentage go to a 4 year college?
3. How many AP/Honors classes are offered?

[badunnin]

From a teacher's point of view, I look at the administrators. Where can they be found in the school? I'm currently split between 2 schools, and they are very different. At school A, the principal is always in the hallways, not in his office. He stops by *every* classroom at least once a week just to say hi. He'll just wander into classrooms often to see what is going on. At school B, the principal can usually be found in her office. At conferences last night, it looked like she was holding court in the middle of the gym - she wasn't talking to parents, or teachers, only the 2 assistant principals, or parents if they approached her.

Additionally, where are the teachers if they aren't in their classrooms? At school A, I went to the homecoming football game - almost half the staff was there, just mingling with parents and kids, watching the band and the game. At school B, teachers don't attend football games.

Guess where I'd like to be next year. ;)

[syzygy]

How long has the principal been there?
What about the teachers? How long have they been there?

Kim, you've hit on some very important points, but please don't equate the length of staff appointments with being a good staff member. In my experience (both as a teacher and as a parent) some long-time teachers get burned out but continue plodding along when they should have gotten out years before. Even if they had a good rep at one time. On the other hand, some brand new to teaching teachers can have an unbelievable, positive impact on students right from the get-go. Tenure does not always equate with competence. While it should weed out those who are not up to par, it doesn't always work that way.

Non-core academics and support services are very important in a school system, since they speak to community support. Those are usually the first to go when budgets have to be cut. Parental involvement also speaks volumes.

Talking with parents who already have children in the system can be invaluable, but make sure that they don't have any axes to grind -- it can really color their opinions.

If your school committee meetings are carried by the local cable station, I'd encourage you to watch a few meetings. They may seem more boring than stagnant water, but you can learn a lot about the system by paying attention to what goes on there.

[cminmd]

I think Badunnin made a great point. We got a new assistant principal this year and at parents night I met her for the first time. I usually volunteer in the office, art supply closet and the copy room. I knew that if I hadn't seen her yet that ment she was out walking the school seeing kids. That's how I knew she would be good. The principal however is always in his office gossiping with "office girls". Schools would be so much easier to run if it wern't for all these meddelsome kids!

I have young kids so my clues are slightly different.
Class size is very important to me. I don't care how good the teacher is- you can not effectively teach 30 kids in a classroom designed for 20. My daugthters class last year was so crowded you felt like you could walk easily across the room on the sea of desks. My son had only 16 in his class.
Quality of the teachers- harder to measure and lots of variety within a school, but some things to look for is turnover, do they have mentoring for new teachers, how long have most of the teachers been teaching.
Dollars spent on student ratio. This usually indicates how clean the facitities are kept, how many supplies are availiable for art and science, class variety ect.

[clairea]

I think you are right that a "good" school is a subjective term. My children attend an elementary school that is part of the Atlanta Public School system (not typically a designation that encourages confidence :( ) The school consistently exceeds goals for academic performance (it is a National Blue Ribbon School), and when the children leaving 5th grade (the final year) have no problem moving on to some of the top privat prep schools in the city, so it is a "good" school in terms of academic criteria. Obviously, academics are one of the key elements of a good school, and I don't think you can have a great school without a strong academic program. Class sizes are small, and dollars to student ratios are good, so those objective measures look good too. Here are a few of the other things that I think really make our school stand out, and that I suggest you consider (some may be more important for certain children than for others):

1. Without fail, every teacher we have encountered has been truly committed to their job. They all seem to be willing to go "above and beyond", whether children are struggling with academic, social or emotional issues or children are excelling and need an addiitional challenge. I don't think I have come across a single teacher who is just putting in time.

2. The parents are incredibly committed to working with the school and making it a better place. Whatever need the teachers or school have, there are always parents ready and willing to fill it. For example, we have 2 full-time staff in the library, but parent also work volunteer there throughout the day helping children find and check out books. There is a child in DS's class this year who needs some extra help staying focused, and a group of us are taking turns sitting with him each day to help him.

3. The principal is responsive to parents' needs and concerns. There has never been a time in the 4 years we have been at this school that I have felt that a concern I had hasn't been addressed appropriately (and I have only had a very few issues).

4. The teachers and staff (from what I hear) feel that they are respected and valued by the administration and the parents.

5. The children are treated as individuals. The academic program is not "one size fits all" and the teachers are given the flexibility to tailor their teaching to the needs and abilities of individual students.

6. There is recess! I'm not sure is you saw, but I had a thread a few weeks ago about my son's gifted and talented program being scheduled during his recess (one of the few issues I have had with the school, and one that was promptly resolved). Several people mentioned that many schools don't have recess at all.

7. There are opportunities other than strict classroom academics. My kids leave the classroom each day for "specials" which include art, music, computers, PE, science lab. They also take French every day. The PTA budget subsidizes some of these activities.
8. The student body is somewhat diverse, although not as much as I would like.

9. Most importantly, my children are happy.

Whew! Anyway, these are the things I think of, more than just test scores, when I think about why I value the school we are in (and why I am willing to keep living in a little bitty house to stay in the district ;) ).

Claire

[Escher]

Will MY children be safe?
Will MY children have access to after-school programs?
Will MY children perform up to their potential?
Will MY children have a teacher who can react to their individual needs?
Will MY children be introduced to diverse environments?

To the degree that MY children are given every possible advantage, it is a good school. I really could care less how the student body in general does, or how "fairly" the ESL and disabled kids are dealt with...that's THEIR parent's concern.

I'll judge a school entirely upon how well they suit MY child's needs. Aggregate data does not impress me whatsoever.

[RunnerKim]

Don't worry I don't equate tenure with quality - however I think it does say something very important if a school has had 3 principals in 5 years for example. conversely I would ask questions if the same principal had been at a school for 20 years - are they still invested in the job, fresh, are they believers in shared-leadership or autocratic style etc. Bethany's comment about where you find the principal is a good one. Those were more starting points. Certainly the same with teachers - although I'd be more interested in an overall picture of the turnover rate. As a student I've had teachers that have taught for years that were clearly burnt out and coasting and new teachers that were floundering. And fortunately many excellent teachers of various tenures. I'm more interested in patterns and specifically that of principal's tenure. I'm trying to get a guage of the healthiness of the professional environment for the school. I want my kids' teachers supported, respected, invested and happy in their jobs.

Kim

[Kristilyn1]

I moved away from my home state for a few years and when we were deciding to come back last year--we almost solely based our decision on where to live based on school quality. I asked around and found that most people are more than happy to share their opinions on a school but they quite literally pull the ideas straight from their keesters. I picked the 10 or 12 towns that were situated in a convenient area for us (commutability for my husband, etc.) and then I created a spreadsheet where I took the testing scores proficient and above for all the grades they test, SAT scores, classroom sizes, percentage of students who go on to secondary schools and gave them each a score. That narrowed it down to about 4 towns that were the best in those categories. We then restricted our search to those towns. In our area I found that test scores almost always directly correlate to parental involvement. Every town that had the best test scores, had incredible parental involvement and a nurturing environment. And no, our school does not "teach to the test". Also, the four towns were the towns with almost uniformly, the highest property values--in this area you quite literally need to buy into the best schools. Not that the other towns didn't have good schools--I just wanted the best I could afford. We didn't end up in what my data showed as the best--it was too darn expensive, but we ended up in a town where I find to be a super fit for us and a caring, nurturing environment-most of our teachers have kids in the district as well so they are very plugged into the community as a whole.

So, while I know that test scores are not the be all end all---they can definitely point you in the right direction as I found that people are all over the place in what they think of as a good school and very rarely do they have any data to support the assertion.

Kristi

[clairea]

I think Kristi makes a really good point that parental involvement frequently correlates with strong academic performance in a school.

Escher's post, while quite blunt (as always), I think also makes a very good point. Personally, I do care about the education of children other than my own, as I think we all have a responsibility to all children (yes, bleeding-heart liberal here ;) ). However, when it comes down to deciding what makes a particular school a good school for *my* child, all that matters are whether my child would be safe, happy, well-educated, etc. Even the "best" school will be a terrible fit for some children.

Claire