Is a Christmas tree a religious symbol?

[jellyben]

A local public school recently decided to remove the Giving Tree(decorated with gift tags for needy families) and replaced it with a Giving Counter after a parent complained about the use of a tree, seeing it as a religious symbol. My kids' school uses a giving tree as do most districts in the area and they have no religious decorations on them. I don't necessarily consider it a religious symbol but I do consider it to be symbolic of Christmas. I would be interested to know how this time of year is handled in schools in other areas.

My mom loves to tell the story of when she was teaching she asked her principal if she was allowed to have a live tree(as in is it legal to have a live as opposed to fake tree in the school). He said yes as long as she called it a Winter Bush. She laughed and told him if every other teacher could have a menorah she was going to have a Christmas tree.

[tbb113]

Karen - I don't think of the tree has a religious symbol (like a cross) but it most definetly is a part of Christmas which is a religious holiday. IMHO, the parent that complained needs to lighten up :rolleyes:

And IMHO both a tree and a menorah or driedel have no place in a secular classroom unless its brought in as a one day treat/explanation and then is taken home.

[blazedog]

Well technically it's a pagan symbol that was adopted by the Christians as they conquered but yes it is now a universally accepted symbol of Christmas and Christmas is celebrated by Christians.

This is a piece from yesterday's OP ED section of the LA Times which apparently caused a lot of irate letters in today's paper. The guy is a humorist -- please keep that in mind. :)

Oy to the world
Joel Stein

December 6, 2005

THERE IS A grave concern, on news shows and Op-Ed pages, that we are about to lose Christmas. Though no one outside the media is at all interested, I figure jumping in will make my editors think I'm smart.

The debate began with the printing of Fox News anchor John Gibson's book, "The War on Christmas: How the Liberal Plot to Ban the Sacred Christian Holiday Is Worse Than You Thought," which is ranked 285th on Amazon.com Although I did not actually read the book, I can gather from the pithy title that it must be quite a read. Seriously, the guy couldn't even afford an editor for the title?

Gibson is upset that people are afraid to express true Christmas spirit because of unrelenting liberal pressure to take religion out of government, politics and public places. In fact, Gibson and fellow Fox anchor Bill O'Reilly are so upset that they have organized a boycott of Target, Wal-Mart, Kmart, Sears and Costco for using the phrase "Happy Holidays" in their ads instead of "Merry Christmas." I'm guessing those places also stopped selling Brylcreem.

Jerry Falwell is supporting the catchy-named "Friend or Foe Christmas Campaign" that has lawyers ready to sue anyone who won't let them do Christmas wherever they want. The Friend or Foe Christmas Campaign newspaper ads tell you to call "if you are facing persecution for celebrating Christmas." I'm thinking too much time spent studying Jesus can give you a persecution complex.

As a Jew, I don't care that much about Christmas. It's hard to celebrate someone's birth when you supposedly killed the guy. It would be like Arnold Schwarzenegger giving gifts for Tookie Day.

We Jews find it a little embarrassing that adults can still make such a big fuss over Christmas. To us, Jesus was just a cool guy everyone liked because he died young. And even 16-year-old girls eventually take down their James Dean posters.

Still, I agree with Gibson to this extent: Christmas is a Christian holiday, and trying to eliminate the religious aspect is insulting. There's nothing more annoying than people telling me I should get a tree and string lights in front of my house because these aren't religious symbols. Or telling me that kids get off school for "winter break," presumably so they can worship winter. It's an infuriating inability to see through the eyes of the other.

TELLING ME to enjoy "season's greetings" is a condescending way of trying to pressure me into something I'm not part of. It's one thing to be subjected to someone's metaphysics. It's another to be wordy about it.

I get that I live in a Christian nation. And I'm fine with it. I like you guys. I think it's adorable that you ring giant, white pipe cleaners around streetlights and make everything taste like peppermint and thought the world was going to end when the calendar went to three zeros in a row. It's like living with children.

I'm grateful that our Constitution separates religion from our law and our non-Kansas schools. But that doesn't mean the culture of a country with a higher percentage of Christians than Israel has Jews isn't going to be all into the Jesus thing. That's why Christmas is a national holiday and Yom Kippur isn't. And that's why Neil Diamond and Barbra Streisand put out Christmas albums.

Last Thursday, a group called Jews Against Anti-Christian Defamation held a press conference at the National Press Club in Washington, where founding member Jackie Mason spoke out against the war on Christmas. He basically argued that if people can't say "Merry Christmas," then he won't be allowed to wish people an "Exceptional Purim." That one doesn't translate from Yiddish well.

So please, go nuts with your celebration, with your lying to children about where presents come from and your beverages made from raw eggs and your desperate use of greenery to get women to kiss you.

No, there's no war on Christmas. But this attempt to be inclusive by tamping down on the Christ birth stuff, while well intentioned, is just making us non-Christians feel worse. All I want from you is to admit — whether you're religious or not — that these customs are inexorably tied in to the birth of your savior. Then I'll be happy to celebrate your culture with you, if you want me to. Because it beats my people trying to persuade me to whoop it up over a story about an extra-long-lasting candle and a toy that's so obviously just a badly made top.

[jellyben]

Funny article. My mom is incensed that Merry Christmas has been banned from the lips of every retail clerk across the country. After all, it is because of Christmas that folks are spending oodles of money in their stores!!


"But this attempt to be inclusive by tamping down on the Christ birth stuff, while well intentioned, is just making us non-Christians feel worse. All I want from you is to admit — whether you're religious or not — that these customs are inexorably tied in to the birth of your savior. Then I'll be happy to celebrate your culture with you, if you want me to. Because it beats my people trying to persuade me to whoop it up over a story about an extra-long-lasting candle and a toy that's so obviously just a badly made top."

Well, duh. Christians consider this to be one of the holiest times of the year. The "tamping down on the Christ birth stuff" is probably one of the most offensive outgrowths of the Christmas season to anyone of strong Christian faith. I think they would like nothing more than to lose the Season's Greetings business and accept that Christmas celebrates the birth of Christ and isn't about Santa Claus and Christmas trees.

[Grace]

This is a piece from yesterday's OP ED section of the LA Times which apparently caused a lot of irate letters in today's paper. The guy is a humorist -- please keep that in mind. :)

Oy to the world
Joel Stein

December 6, 2005

In fact, Gibson and fellow Fox anchor Bill O'Reilly are so upset that they have organized a boycott of Target, Wal-Mart, Kmart, Sears and Costco for using the phrase "Happy Holidays" in their ads instead of "Merry Christmas."

Not that this has any bearing on the topic at hand, and I can deal with humor, but this statement is blatantly false. The paper will be printing a correction on it shortly (if it hasn't already been done). No boycott of any store was ever organized or called for. Ever.

[mbrogier]

I read on another board the other day that people were boycotting Target because of what Bill O'Reilley said last week. I just thought it was ridiculous to boycott over that.

[Dfen911]

Here is a great link (http://www.religioustolerance.org/xmas_tree.htm) that discusses both Christian and Pagan beliefs as well as some of the issues we seem to have today.

My opinion - Nope it's not.

[Goin' Coastal]

I think that is absurd!!! I think of a Nativity set as religious, but a tree? Come on! I have a feeling every atheist in the country has a tree to put gifts under and doesn't think of it as "religious". I don't ever remember a tree being mentioned in the Christmas story of Christ's birth. Hmmmmmmmmm maybe it was - "and the baby was placed in a manger under the tree"

[Kathy B]

I don't ever remember a tree being mentioned in the Christmas story of Christ's birth. Hmmmmmmmmm maybe it was - "and the baby was placed in a manger under the tree"

Well, actually, in the Koran, Jesus is born under a palm tree.....but it might be harder for people to buy those in some regions. :D

[Grace]

I read on another board the other day that people were boycotting Target because of what Bill O'Reilley said last week. I just thought it was ridiculous to boycott over that.

Bill did put up a list of stores that are on the record as saying they will not say Merry Christmas, but he didn't call for people to boycott those stores. I guess some people are doing that of their own volition, which of course, is fine with me - plenty of people on this board boycott Walmart because they don't like what they're doing, so choosing not to spend your money at a retailer who practices things you don't like is reasonable to me although I was just at Target yesterday and bought a few things - Merry Christmas or not, I like their stuff! :D

[boisewinesnob]

LOL. you know, "Christmas" colors are usually red and green, so maybe somebody is boycotting stores that feature one (or both) colors in their logos

;)

[tea4one]

May I be so bold to ask, wasn't it the Germans that introduced the Christmas tree I know it is a pagan ritual but wasn't it the Germans that brought that over or started it?

[Kathy B]

Here is a site that gives some history. The Germans are credited with introducing the use of the tree as part of the Christmas celebration.

History of the Christmas tree (http://www.historychannel.com/exhibits/holidays/christmas/trees.html)

[leebee]

This is one of those things that I just don't get. I mean, a tree can have whatever significance one assigns to it. It MAY have religious association to one person and not to another. I don't think it's right to assume that having a Christmas tree or saying "Merry Christmas" means the same thing from one person to another. One thinks of the birth of Jesus, one thinks of Santa Claus, another thinks of both, yet another of neither. The same tree can be either a religious symbol or a...well, a tree. Some think the origins of the Christmas tree go back to yule celebrations, where the whole "defeat of darkness by the light" thing was celebrated and a large tree was cut and fed into the hearth over the winter. It was a way to keep warm and dispel the darkness of winter. That tradition gave rise to the yule log and the tradition of bringing a tree into the home (it's just something I've read here and there over the years, so don't ask for sources). So, maybe I'll have a "yule tree" from now on, or, as a friend of mine suggested, we can celebrate Chrismahanukwanzakah. Mind you, I don't have a problem with having a Holiday Party rather than a Christmas Party. But to eliminate all the trappings of the season seems a bit excessive.

[Lillith]

In the lobby of our school we have a huge, beautifully decorated Christmas tree and a lovely menorah that is lit appropriately each day of Chanukah. The menorah is on a stand in front of one of the windows while the tree is set against the back wall (like I said, it is huge....you can't miss it!). One parent complained that the menorah was "upstaging" the tree as passers-by could see it, but not the tree! Another parent asked what we're doing for Kwanza. There's just no pleasing everyone!

[ellielk]

With regard to the 'boycott.' I didn't hear that it had anything to do with Bill O'Reilly. Our local newspaper reported that 'fundamentalist' Christian groups were complaining that the religious significance and even the designation of Christmas were being dropped in favor of 'Happy Holidays' or 'Season's Greetings.' Whomever is doing the complaining wants to boycott stores that don't have 'Christmas' sales but have 'Holiday' sales, for an example.

In another related story, the President is receiving some complaints because he didn't send a Christmas card, he sent a holiday card.

I guess some folks, whatever their beliefs, are lucky to have no other worries in their lives and have the time to stew and fret over important issues like these.

[SusanMac]

Love the Joel Stein op-ed.

Tired of the "battle" aspect of Christmas. I continue to be amazed at the marketing machine that is the religious right. Truly amazing.

[GingerPow]

I guess some folks, whatever their beliefs, are lucky to have no other worries in their lives and have the time to stew and fret over important issues like these.

Excellent point!

[Jessica]

Perhaps this is the time to confess that I, along with the rest of the Jews in America, hang out in my basement every October and plot how to de-Christify Christmas.

I think the whole thing is silly. I don't care if the White House has a Christmas tree or sends a Christmas card, nor do I care if Christians send Christmas cards to me. If a clerk wishes me a Merry Christmas, I don't get offended, I just wish her a Happy New Year and move on with my life.
I think giant menorahs are silly and Chanukah is not even a major Jewish holiday.

I am far more concerned about putting Christianity in our courts or Constitution, where it does not belong, than in our banks or stores, where I could not care less. But leave the ginormous menorahs out of it. One benefit of being a religious minority in a pluralistic society is that, usually, I can celebrate my holidays in peace.

To answer the original question, a Christmas tree is a pagan symbol that was brought into Christian celebrations. It is not a Christian symbol but it has come to represent a Christian holiday, namely, the birth of Jesus.

[Lillith]

I understand that Christmas is a Christian holiday celebrating the birth of Jesus Christ, but Christ was a Jew!

[blazedog]

I understand that Christmas is a Christian holiday celebrating the birth of Jesus Christ, but Christ was a Jew!

There is nothing to indicate that this is a droll comment so I will have to take it at face value.

Jews do not believe in the divinity of Christ, that he was the messiah, the Virgin Birth, the Holy Trinity or the Passion Story (i.e. Easter).

Christians celebrate Christmas -- Neither Jews nor atheists celebrate it nor do most of the people in the world who have entirely different belief systems.

I'm with Jessica in that I think there are way more significant issues in terms of separation of church/state. However, I do think it reflects some degree of cultural ethnocentricity not to realize that there are people among you (myself for example) that did not celebrate Christmas in any way shape or form -- no tree, no presents, no Santa, no cookies.

As much as Stein's article was tongue in cheek, I do share his sentiments that it is peculiar for Christians not to acknowledge/realize that all of these things are part of the way in which European/American Christians celebrate the birth of Christ. While dreidels, hamanteschen, apples & honey etc. may not be particularly religious, they are inextricably tied to Jewish celebrations.

[Kathy B]

I said something to our after-school care director once, because she had decorated the sign-in table with signs that said..."Happy Kwanza!", "Happy Hannukah!" and "HO! HO! HO!" I asked her why there wasn't a sign that said "Merry Christmas!" along with the others. She said in a rather hushed voice..."Well, I was trying to stay away from religious sayings." to which I replied "What do you think 'Happy Hannukah!' is?" She looked a little taken aback.

I have no problem with recognizing any of them.....acknowledge everyone's holidays. That is how we learn about each other. It doesn't mean I have to change my beliefs or you have to change yours.

Can't we all just get along? :(

[Lillith]

There is nothing to indicate that this is a droll comment so I will have to take it at face value. Jews do not believe in the divinity of Christ, that he was the messiah, the Virgin Birth, the Holy Trinity or the Passion Story (i.e. Easter).

To address your first sentence, I was ABSOLUTELY NOT trying to be droll. To address your second sentence, I am Jewish so I already know this. I marvel at and respect the many beliefs that people have. We are always invited into our Christian neighbor's home to help decorate their tree and they are always invited into ours to light one of our Chanukah candles. I love riding through my neighborhood to see the festive lights and decorations associated with Christmas. It is the seaon of many celebrated holidays so I prefer to say "Happy Holiday" to encompass them all.

[tperes]

With regard to the 'boycott.' I didn't hear that it had anything to do with Bill O'Reilly. Our local newspaper reported that 'fundamentalist' Christian groups were complaining that the religious significance and even the designation of Christmas were being dropped in favor of 'Happy Holidays' or 'Season's Greetings.' Whomever is doing the complaining wants to boycott stores that don't have 'Christmas' sales but have 'Holiday' sales, for an example.



Not to add fire to the fray, and I probably should stay out of it, but I can't hold my virtual tongue!

If people wanted to truly be Christian and celebrate the true meaning of Christmas, they would stay out of department stores (which have commercialized Christmas to the point that we should all be ashamed) and do acts of kindness towards those less fortunate than them. Now, I, too, love to give gifts, but I am doing my best to stay away from the madness, and make home-made gifts that are very heartfelt and are special from me to the receiver.

I am boycotting WalMart, not b/c of any lack of saying "Merry Christmas," but because the treatment of their employees is severely lacking in respect and dignity that all humans should be afforded, as well as the fact that this superpower retailer has caused the variety and quality of products to be consumed by the monoculture that is WalMart. Honestly, since I stopped shopping there, well before Halloween, I have been delighted at the number of locally-owned stores that are in my community that sell the things I need and/or want. Sometimes the items are higher priced, sometimes not. It all works out in the end.

Okay, stepping down from the soap-box...

[blazedog]

To address your first sentence, I was ABSOLUTELY NOT trying to be droll. To address your second sentence, I am Jewish so I already know this. I marvel at and respect the many beliefs that people have. We are always invited into our Christian neighbor's home to help decorate their tree and they are always invited into ours to light one of our Chanukah candles. I love riding through my neighborhood to see the festive lights and decorations associated with Christmas. It is the seaon of many celebrated holidays so I prefer to say "Happy Holiday" to encompass them all.

I agree with this post completely -- but still don't quite get the original post -- not that it matters. :D

[SandyM]

This thread is very enlightening, on a variety of levels.

Perhaps this is the time to confess that I, along with the rest of the Jews in America, hang out in my basement every October and plot how to de-Christify Christmas.

I think the whole thing is silly. I don't care if the White House has a Christmas tree or sends a Christmas card, nor do I care if Christians send Christmas cards to me. If a clerk wishes me a Merry Christmas, I don't get offended, I just wish her a Happy New Year and move on with my life.
I think giant menorahs are silly and Chanukah is not even a major Jewish holiday.

I love this, Jessica. And you absolutely crack me up. :D

[cocoa'smom]

Being Jewish, it doesn't bother me that there is a Christmas tree on the governor's mansion lawn (it was originally called a "holiday tree", but there was such an outcry, that the gov. apologized and is now calling it a "Christmas tree".) It is a Christmas tree. It is now associated with Christmas (which is a Christian holiday), even though it may have been pagan in origin. Hanukah has nothing to do with a tree...I don't think Kwanzaa does, either, so call it a Christmas tree, not a "Holiday" tree. But, I do think that a Christmas tree does have Christian connotations. I am married to a lapsed Catholic and we do have a Christmas tree...mainly because it is fun for the kids, but I never had a "Hanukah bush" growing up, although I know Jewish families that did. I always thought it was silly, though.

What bothers me the most about all of this is what Jessica said. Hanukah is not a major Jewish holiday, so stop trying to equate it with Christmas for the sake of being PC. Stop with the giant menorahs.

And I also am far more concerned with Christianity and its brand of morality making it into our government and courts.

If someone wishes me a Merry Christmas, I just say thank you, or wish them one back. One thing that has always bothered me, though - maybe some Christian people can tell me what they think about this....when someone asks someone "How was your Christmas?", the answer always has to do with what gifts they received....as in "Great - I got everything I wanted" or "It was OK - I didn't really get what I wanted". Even as a kid, I always thought this was odd, since Christmas is supposed to be a religious hoilday, not all about the gifts. I have heard responses like this all my life - it is not a new phenomenon.

[zwieback]

If someone wishes me a Merry Christmas, I just say thank you, or wish them one back. One thing that has always bothered me, though - maybe some Christian people can tell me what they think about this....when someone asks someone "How was your Christmas?", the answer always has to do with what gifts they received....as in "Great - I got everything I wanted" or "It was OK - I didn't really get what I wanted". Even as a kid, I always thought this was odd, since Christmas is supposed to be a religious hoilday, not all about the gifts. I have heard responses like this all my life - it is not a new phenomenon.

DH and I jokingly call Christmas, Giftmas. :p I'm no longer a practicing christian (like your husband, I'm a lapsed catholic), so I can't really answer your question. But, I totally agree with what you said and I totally agree with what tperes said. I don't think Christmas should have anything to do with the gifts, if it is truly a religious holiday for someone. For me, I don't answer the question of "how was my christmas" by saying, "I got this or that." I say, "oh it was fun, the whole family was around" or, "it was hectic because we had to travel here and there", etc. I only say I got this or that if someone specifically asks me what I got. For me, yes I enjoy receiving gifts (who doesn't?). I also enjoy giving them. But, Christmas for me isn't about the gifts and it's not religious in any way to me. It's about being with family and celebrating that.

[jellyben]

As much as Stein's article was tongue in cheek, I do share his sentiments that it is peculiar for Christians not to acknowledge/realize that all of these things are part of the way in which European/American Christians celebrate the birth of Christ. While dreidels, hamanteschen, apples & honey etc. may not be particularly religious, they are inextricably tied to Jewish celebrations.

I think many devout Christians would prefer to see CHristmas represented by the true religious symbols of Christmas. Sure, many people are satisfied with plastic snowmen and Christmas trees, but to many that has exactly nothing to do with the true meaning of Christmas. It annoys DH(a very devout Catholic) to no end when the kids come home from school with a holiday craft depicting a Christmas tree and a menorah. But in the end it is up to our family to celebrate as we see fit-I do not depend on the mall or the bank or the school to remind my kids about Christmas.

[MrsReber]

As a person who does not practice any religion, I am fed up with banning trees and whatnot. I really don't care if they wanted to decorate my kids daycare with menorahs or some other symbols. It doesn't bother me and at times I cannot understand why people even waste time on this. Maybe it's because I'm not religious??

I put up a Christmas tree, I celebrate Christmas, but that's simply because I was brought up this way. My parents are also not affiliated with any religion.

I guess it's just beyond me why it's such an issue. I'll try to enlighten myself, but in all honesty, I think people need to relax. If I was greated with some other holiday salutation at the store, I wouldn't be offended at all. It doesn't have to be Merry Christmas.

[jellyben]

One thing that has always bothered me, though - maybe some Christian people can tell me what they think about this....when someone asks someone "How was your Christmas?", the answer always has to do with what gifts they received....as in "Great - I got everything I wanted" or "It was OK - I didn't really get what I wanted". Even as a kid, I always thought this was odd, since Christmas is supposed to be a religious hoilday, not all about the gifts. I have heard responses like this all my life - it is not a new phenomenon.

DH(the resident Catholic) is determined to instill in our kids the true meaning of Christmas. My 8yo had to do a poster about how we celebrate the holiday season and DH reviewed with him about the birth of Jesus and all that stuff. When it came time to do his poster, he drew a big Christmas tree and presents!! Maybe it is easier for some kids, but all mine can focus on is 'stuff'. As for adults, my experience must be different from yours as the people I speak with generally speak about the family that visited, the great meal, how happy the kids were. For me, I am much more depressed that we are spending the holidays alone then I am about the fact that I am not getting any gifts!

[BarbaraL]

I'm sure the stores have employees say "Happy Holidays" rather than "Merry Christmas" because there's no way (nor should there be) for a cashier to determine a person's religion/culture while conducting a short business transaction. The intent is to be pleasant and friendly, not to make a religious issue. Even if someone has no religious faith, "Happy Holidays" can refer simply to New Year's.
I believe that, historically, Jesus wasn't actually born in December; I'm not sure if historians know exactly when he was born. As various cultures gained and lost power, the legends and traditions of the native people and the conquerors merged. Many cultures had a celebration at the winter solstice - probably asking the gods to bring back the sun. The celebration of Christ's birth got merged in with these pagan celebrations.

As someone said, Can't we all get along? Many people think I'm Jewish (I'm not), and wish me a Happy Hannukah. I smile and reply, Thank you, same to you! or Thank you! Happy Holidays! or something similar. I take it to be a well-intentioned greeting, not any type of commentary on my religion or heritage. People need to lighten up.

[Jasmine-Rose]

Once late November rolls around I start my annual countdown to that very special day in December. It isn't a big celebration, but I wake up very excited on that day and I find that I wear a big smile all day long. I so look forward to that day and even if I celebrate all alone, and even if my special day is overshadowed by Christmas, I am always very excited about its arrival.

At this time of year, here in New England, I drive to work in the dark and I drive home in the dark, and so I joyously celebrate the arrival of the Winter Solstice. Once that day comes, I know that the days are starting to get longer and I rejoice in that every year. Don't get me wrong - I really like living in New England and I love a sunny day after an ice storm when all the trees look like they're made of glass. I like the sound of squeaky snow underfoot when it's so cold that there is no moisture and the snow sings when I walk. The only downside is the shortness of the daylight hours and that's why I so look forward to Winter Solstice.

No special symbols, no pressure, no presents, no discrimination for race, creed or color. Just pleasure in knowing that the days are slowly lengthening. Now that's a day we can all celebrate!

[JenniferJJ]

I guess some folks, whatever their beliefs, are lucky to have no other worries in their lives and have the time to stew and fret over important issues like these.

Whoo...I don't know which would be worse...the posters that feel this way offending someone and not caring or not knowing that this statement is offensive to someone. FWIW, I do have other worries in my life, but since my faith is important to me, that is a concern also. I find it ironic and insulting that the stores have no problem profitting from Christmas, but will not acknowledge it. All these "holiday" sales? Is there another holiday besides Christmas that people are buying all this stuff for? And I don't understand what the comment is about the marketing machine of the religious right is.

FWIW, I have never heard of the Bill O'Reilly boycott. I know that several evangelical groups are boycotting several stores.

With respect to the "being truly Christian" that I should stay out of the department store and that the response for "how was your Christmas" is a list of gifts:

After I bought two gifts (for my mom and dad), I was done. I have been baking some cookies and bought some other homemade cookies at a cookie walk and they like that, too. I took my nephew to a junior league hockey game when his family was visiting since he's enjoyed other hockey-game outings with me.

The most significant thing I will do is tomorrow night: I will go to church for an international Christmas celebration (all women). I will be a table hostess and so will need to provide all the table decorations, place settings and linens in addition to appetizers and desserts. Women representing about 80 different nations will be attending. Two women I've invited (from Japan and Korea) are very interested in Christianity. The third, from Russia, not so much, but is interested in the company of the two other attending she knows. Also, I think that she attends church for Christmas and Easter. We'll tell the Christmas story in different languages and sing Christmas Carols in different languages and celebrate Jesus and the fact that He came to this earth for people of every nationality.

On this thread, it looks like Christians can't win...if I celebrate the religious aspect of this holiday, with my faith being important to me, then I'm told (in a sarcastic way) that this shouldn't be important to me and called religious right. But for those that celebrate the secular meaning (and aren't going to care if anybody calls the fir trees "holiday" trees), people on this thread want them to get out of the department stores.

[Jessica]

It annoys DH(a very devout Catholic) to no end when the kids come home from school with a holiday craft depicting a Christmas tree and a menorah. .

This would annoy me, too. Chanukah is not the Jewish Christmas--it is a minor Jewish festival blown entirely out of proportion by the December marketing machine.

[PoppyJ]

Can someone explain to me why someone else's religion is offensive? I just cannot understand why saying "Merry Chirstmas", having a Christmas tree, or a nativity set is offensive. Maybe it is hard for me to understand because I am a Christian, but when I lived in the Middle East, I was not offended by prayer call, a Mosque, or by a Muslim holiday.

Plus I adon't think Christmas is about Christ anymore. I mean really...how many of those crazed shoppers out there are shopping because it is Christ's birthday? I really doubt they are buying him a Christmas present.

[blazedog]

I think many devout Christians would prefer to see CHristmas represented by the true religious symbols of Christmas. Sure, many people are satisfied with plastic snowmen and Christmas trees, but to many that has exactly nothing to do with the true meaning of Christmas. It annoys DH(a very devout Catholic) to no end when the kids come home from school with a holiday craft depicting a Christmas tree and a menorah. But in the end it is up to our family to celebrate as we see fit-I do not depend on the mall or the bank or the school to remind my kids about Christmas.

Maybe I am missing the point but why is he annoyed? Because of the menorah or because of the Christmas tree?

Most cultures have holidays with lights coinciding with the winter solstice just as most cultures have holidays around the harvest and most cultures have holidays centering around spring.

[Jessica]

Can someone explain to me why someone else's religion is offensive? I just cannot understand why saying "Merry Chirstmas", having a Christmas tree, or a nativity set is offensive. Maybe it is hard for me to understand because I am a Christian, but when I lived in the Middle East, I was not offended by prayer call, a Mosque, or by a Muslim holiday.

Plus I adon't think Christmas is about Christ anymore. I mean really...how many of those crazed shoppers out there are shopping because it is Christ's birthday? I really doubt they are buying him a Christmas present.


Poppy--I am not offended by Christmas symbols and I don't care if someone wishes me Merry Christmas. But the larger issue for some people is the underlying assumption that everyone celebrates Christmas, and not everyone does.

[leebee]

I would just like to say for the record that in the eyes of the Catholic church, Christmas is not THE big holiday. Easter is the biggie, the holiest, the most important, the Big One. Christmas has the significance it does because of the season. I think that you see so many menorahs alongside Christmas trees in a misguided attemt at inclusion--Chanukah often falls around the same general time, so it's just that it becomes part of the season. And as far as JenniferJJ's statement that "Christians can't win" on this thread, I think the opposite is true. I think that many are saying we should all be able to celebrate the season in the manner we choose and give each other a little leeway. It's funny, because saying "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas" isn't intended to EXCLUDE Christians, it's intended to INCLUDE everybody (which is silly, IMHO). So, I still say, have a Decent Chrismahanukwanzakah! Or, maybe it truly is time for a Festivus for the Rest of Us!

[blazedog]

Can someone explain to me why someone else's religion is offensive? I just cannot understand why saying "Merry Chirstmas", having a Christmas tree, or a nativity set is offensive. Maybe it is hard for me to understand because I am a Christian, but when I lived in the Middle East, I was not offended by prayer call, a Mosque, or by a Muslim holiday.

Plus I adon't think Christmas is about Christ anymore. I mean really...how many of those crazed shoppers out there are shopping because it is Christ's birthday? I really doubt they are buying him a Christmas present.

No one finds it offensive -- However it is presumption that everyone is celebrating Christmas that is being discussed.

How can a store know what religion or holiday a person celebrates -- that's why they've moved over to Happy Holidays. I really am not sure why this is offensive to Christians. Having grown up as a minority religion, I didn't need a store or a television commercial to affirm my belief system so I find it strange that the majority religion needs a salutation from a clerk at Wal Marts to validate their belief system.

The larger issue is the separation of church/state. It violates the First Amendment to have the government supporting one religion or any religion. That is why creches, the 10 Commandments, crosses and other clearly religious symbols are not permitted on government property.

I think Christmas trees and lights are pretty -- I love driving home at night and looking at the displays. As a child, my parents always took us to see the displays in the stores on Fifth Avenue and the tree in Rockefellar Center but I never for a moment thought of them as something NOT associated with Christmas or even non-denominational.

[Jessica]

Maybe I am missing the point but why is he annoyed? Because of the menorah or because of the Christmas tree?

Most cultures have holidays with lights coinciding with the winter solstice just as most cultures have holidays around the harvest and most cultures have holidays centering around spring.

I just want to clarify that Chanukah has nothing to do with the solstice. Here is a link to the Chanukah story, if anyone cares.

http://www.holidays.net/chanukah/story.html

Frankly, I preferred it when public (not government) places had Christmas stuff only, or just lights and whatnot. Whenever I see Chanukah decorations in a non-Jewish place, it feels silly and overly PC to me.

[blazedog]

I just want to clarify that Chanukah has nothing to do with the solstice. Here is a link to the Chanukah story, if anyone cares.

http://www.holidays.net/chanukah/story.html

Frankly, I preferred it when public (not government) places had Christmas stuff only, or just lights and whatnot. Whenever I see Chanukah decorations in a non-Jewish place, it feels silly and overly PC to me.

Jessica, I know that the Chanukah legend doesn't involve the solstice doesn't but to me, anthropoligically, all of the religions are based on more ancient pagan belief systems -- it was a time of great fear when the days grew so short and the sun seemed to disappear and rituals evolved to try to explain it and provide for the return of spring -- fire originally and then lights.

It is more than coincidence that almost every culture has a holiday sometime in the depths of winter in which lights play a central role.

[hlao23]

I put up a Christmas tree, I celebrate Christmas, but that's simply because I was brought up this way.

See...I think this is how it is with MOST people - just in varying degrees. Christmas is a religious holiday, but it is also a cultural holiday if you grew up in this country.

I have a friend who is Indian. He grew up in Bombay and is 3rd generation Muslim...fairly devout. He (and from what I understand, his family) celebrate Diwali, Navratri, etc. which are all associated with stories of various Hindu gods. These celebrations are such a large part of the culture in India that it's difficult to seperate what part is culture and what part is religious. I think our two biggest Christian holidays fall into this category as well.

[blazedog]

See...I think this is how it is with MOST people - just in varying degrees. Christmas is a religious holiday, but it is also a cultural holiday if you grew up in this country.

I have a friend who is Indian. He grew up in Bombay and is 3rd generation Muslim...fairly devout. He (and from what I understand, his family) celebrate Diwali, Navratri, etc. which are all associated with stories of various Hindu gods. These celebrations are such a large part of the culture in India that it's difficult to seperate what part is culture and what part is religious. I think our two biggest Christian holidays fall into this category as well.

Although Christianity is the dominant religion in the US, it is not celebrated by many people living in the US who aren't Christians. Thanksgiving is much more the holiday of non-Christian US residents which is universally celebrated.

If you grew up celebrating Christmas you would probably continue to do so even if you ceased to believe in the religion.

However, at least in my experience having grown up as a cultural Jew, it is very uncommon for non-Christians to celebrate Christmas unless they have inter-married and are doing it because it is part of their spouse's tradition. That at least is my experience among the non-Christian people I know.

There are so many people in NY who DON'T celebrate Christmas, that a whole ritual has arisen -- movies and a Chinese meal because those are the restaurants that are open. Parenthetically, a significant number of CHinese people get married on Thanksgiving because that is the one day when NO ONE in NY eats Chinese food and they are closed. :D

[tbb113]

Frankly, I preferred it when public (not government) places had Christmas stuff only, or just lights and whatnot. Whenever I see Chanukah decorations in a non-Jewish place, it feels silly and overly PC to me.

I agree with you fully. I don't need the PC part to feel good about myself and my holidays. BUT I will say, living in area where Jews are few and far between (and many are extremely non-religious)...it is nice to have a place to go and be with a large group of MOTs. When your kid comes home and comments "I'm the only jewish kid in the school (even though he wasn't)" Its nice to go somewhere that isn't the temple and say...see look at all of us.

I guess I want it both ways :rolleyes:

[jellyben]

Maybe I am missing the point but why is he annoyed? Because of the menorah or because of the Christmas tree?



Because the menorah is a religious symbol while the tree is not. A better symbol of Christmas might be a star, as in the star that the Wise Men followed to find JC. If the point is to avoid all religious symbols, then a dreidel would be a better Hannukah symbol.

[tbb113]

Because the menorah is a religious symbol while the tree is not. A better symbol of Christmas might be a star, as in the star that the Wise Men followed to find JC. If the point is to avoid all religious symbols, then a dreidel would be a better Hannukah symbol.

Karen - a menorah is used to hold the candles. It in of itself is no more of a religious symbol than a tree is that is used to hold the ornaments. Judiasm in general doesn't have religious symbols (other than maybe a Star of David). There are things that are associated with Hanukkah (menorah, driedels, latkes, candles, chocolate money (gelt)) just like there are things associated with associated with Christmas (tree, ornaments, lights, cookies).

[hlao23]

However, at least in my experience having grown up as a cultural Jew, it is very uncommon for non-Christians to celebrate Christmas unless they have inter-married and are doing it because it is part of their spouse's tradition. That at least is my experience among the non-Christian people I know.

There are so many people in NY who DON'T celebrate Christmas, that a whole ritual has arisen -- movies and a Chinese meal because those are the restaurants that are open. Parenthetically, a significant number of CHinese people get married on Thanksgiving because that is the one day when NO ONE in NY eats Chinese food and they are closed. :D


Oh! I stand corrected. Guess that's what I get for growing up in the bible belt. ;) :D

[jellyben]

Karen - a menorah is used to hold the candles. It in of itself is no more of a religious symbol than a tree is that is used to hold the ornaments. Judiasm in general doesn't have religious symbols (other than maybe a Star of David). There are things that are associated with Hanukkah (menorah, driedels, latkes, candles, chocolate money (gelt)) just like there are things associated with associated with Christmas (tree, ornaments, lights, cookies).

This is so not a hot button issue for me, but I did some digging to satisfy my curiosity!

From the ADL website:

http://www.adl.org/religion_ps_2004/teaching.asp

"What about symbols that have become secular? The Supreme Court has held that a Christmas tree has become such a secular symbol of the winter holiday season that its display by a public entity does not violate the Establishment Clause. 40 The Supreme Court has also found that a Hanukkah menorah is a symbol with both secular and religious meanings, and its display by a public entity other than a school within a predominantly secular holiday display does not offend the Establishment Clause. 41 The Supreme Court has not addressed whether such a display is permissible in the public school context, but it has noted that a school's display of a Christmas tree and menorah could raise additional constitutional concerns. 42 However, lower courts have not invalidated such displays and it is likely that they are permissible."

[Meganator]

Because the menorah is a religious symbol while the tree is not. A better symbol of Christmas might be a star, as in the star that the Wise Men followed to find JC. If the point is to avoid all religious symbols, then a dreidel would be a better Hannukah symbol.

I would say that the Christmas tree is not a religious symbol in the sense that it is not directly related Christian beliefs in the way that a cross, creche, angel, etc. is. However, it is a religious symbol in the sense that it is Christians (whether religious or cultural) that have Christmas trees. If there are non-Christians that have trees, it is only due to the cultural aspect of Christmas in a dominantly Christian place. I doubt there are non-Christians in dominantly non-Christian areas such as Israel and the rest of the Middle East, India, China, etc. that have Christmas trees. In a similar way, I also think a dreidel is a religious symbol in the sense that it is associated with Jewish people. In an apples-to-apples comparison, tree = dreidel, I guess - both religious symbols, but not related to specific beliefs.

Edited to say that maybe tree does = menorah, if the menorah is not really considered a religious symbol.

[Grace]

Oh! I stand corrected. Guess that's what I get for growing up in the bible belt. ;) :D


Don't stand corrected. She's not correct. Those are her observations (and she did say that, I'm just saying her observations don't reflect the entire reality - just hers). Mine are completely different. Every year (for as long as I can remember) my sister's best friend (with whom she grew up and who is Jewish) celebrates Christmas with us. She, her Jewish husband and their two kids are always with us on Christmas. Always. They like Christmas. They just want to enjoy everything with us.

Now my step-brother and step-sister, who are also Jewish, celebrate with us too, but that's because their Dad (who is Jewish) was married to my Mom (he died a couple years ago) and they wanted to celebrate with us too. So they did do it because of the inter-faith marriage, but now that their Dad is gone, they still come and celebrate with us at Christmas (neither have their own families - they are both alone - we're their family). They love it and so do we.

I could continue on with more examples of just peopel I know, but it's irrelevant. My point is there are many non-Christians that I know personally that do celebrate Christmas in some way. So I don't think it's that uncommon.

[tbb113]

I would agree that a tree = menorah. And just to be REALLY correct, the true name is a chanukiah since a menorah is generic candle stick holder while a chanukiah is used strictly at Chanuka and has the holders for the 9 candles (see what I learn from my children's religious school education :D ).

But to say that neither are part of their respective holiday is misleading. You wouldn't put a tree up in July and I wouldn't display my driedels and chanukiah then either. So, whether they are 'secular' in nature, I'll let the courts decide...but IMHO they aren't.

[blazedog]

This is so not a hot button issue for me, but I did some digging to satisfy my curiosity!

."

Karen -- Why is it a hot button issue for you?

[Grace]

She said it is so NOT a hot button for her.

[jellyben]

Karen -- Why is it a hot button issue for you?

No , it isn't a hot button issue for me, but it is for DH. He is extremely religious so I find myself arguing his case sometimes.

[tbb113]

I could continue on with more examples of just peopel I know, but it's irrelevant. My point is there are many non-Christians that I know personally that do celebrate Christmas in some way. So I don't think it's that uncommon.

Grace - I agree with you that many people of other faiths (or non-faith) help Christians celebrate Christmas...but they don't necessarily celebrate in their homes (by having a tree, gifts, etc). We always used to help freinds decorate their trees, but I understood it wasn't my holiday or my tree. By the same token, I'm having people over to help me celebrate Chanukah by eating latkes, playing driedel and lighting the menorah. They are helping me celebrate the same way I celebrate your birthday by eating cake with you and buying you a gift. But usually non-Christian people who practice a religion, wouldn't celebrate Christmas in their house.

[Kathy B]

But to say that neither are part of their respective holiday is misleading. You wouldn't put a tree up in July and I wouldn't display my driedels and chanukiah then either. So, whether they are 'secular' in nature, I'll let the courts decide...but IMHO they aren't.

Maybe what they mean by secular is that they have no religious MEANING even though they are associated with a religious holiday. For example, Santa is a secular symbol IMO, definitely associated with Christmas but no religious significance whatsoever.

[Meganator]

Don't stand corrected. She's not correct. Those are her observations (and she did say that, I'm just saying her observations don't reflect the entire reality - just hers). Mine are completely different. Every year (for as long as I can remember) my sister's best friend (with whom she grew up and who is Jewish) celebrates Christmas with us. She, her Jewish husband and their two kids are always with us on Christmas. Always. They like Christmas. They just want to enjoy everything with us.

Now my step-brother and step-sister, who are also Jewish, celebrate with us too, but that's because their Dad (who is Jewish) was married to my Mom (he died a couple years ago) and they wanted to celebrate with us too. So they did do it because of the inter-faith marriage, but now that their Dad is gone, they still come and celebrate with us at Christmas (neither have their own families - they are both alone - we're their family). They love it and so do we.

I could continue on with more examples of just peopel I know, but it's irrelevant. My point is there are many non-Christians that I know personally that do celebrate Christmas in some way. So I don't think it's that uncommon.


But as blazedog originally said, they are celebrating due to the intermarriage of their family into a Christian family, or in the case of your sister's friend, let's call her an almost-family member. They are there because they enjoy celebrating a family holiday with you and participating in non-overtly religious traditions, not because they are celebrating the birth of Jesus. Would they still celebrate Christmas if they were not joining with your family to do it?

[Lillith]

Last year I bought a box of greeting cards (at Marshall's) that have a Christmas tree and menorah on the cover with general good holiday wishes on the inside. I see nothing wrong with depicting both of these holiday symbols on the same card and obviously, I'm not alone. There are more important matters over which to get upset. Any discussions regarding politics or religion are bound to hit sore spots with some folks and I hope this thread is not causing hard feelings.

[tbb113]

Karen - back to your original question. I asked my 13 year old son last night if it would bother him if the tree that you described was at his school. His answer was no and it wouldn't bother him if a teacher had a small tree in their room either. He did say that the office doesn't have anything but he was pretty sure that last year they decorated the white board in his core class (english/history) with lights and the teacher might of had a tree.

He also thought the idea of the 'giving counter' was stupid.

[blazedog]

No , it isn't a hot button issue for me, but it is for DH. He is extremely religious so I find myself arguing his case sometimes.

Sorry but I still don't understand his concern -- is it that all religion should be excluded or that the children are being presented with a lopsided presentation?

[Laura]

I have many agnostic friends who "celebrate" Christmas in that they have a tree, decorate, exchange presents on the 25th. They don't decorate their home with a nativity scene however. I have one friend who is an atheist who decorates like she is celebrating Christmas, but exchanges presents on the Winter solstice. Personally, I think there are many non-religious people who celebrate the date of Christmas without celebrating the Christian reason for it.

[Meganator]

I have many agnostic friends who "celebrate" Christmas in that they have a tree, decorate, exchange presents on the 25th. They don't decorate their home with a nativity scene however. I have one friend who is an atheist who decorates like she is celebrating Christmas, but exchanges presents on the Winter solstice. Personally, I think there are many non-religious people who celebrate the date of Christmas without celebrating the Christian reason for it.

I completely agree, but I don't think that applies to many non-Christians, or even non-religious non-Christians. And by non-Christian, I don't mean agnostics, but people brought up in another faith.

[jellyben]

Sorry but I still don't understand his concern -- is it that all religion should be excluded or that the children are being presented with a lopsided presentation?

Sorry I wasn't clear. He would prefer that both symbols be religious, or both symbols be secular. To him, a Christmas tree is not good enough to represent the holiday.

[SusanMac]

JenniferJJ -- If you're still on this thread...you has asked about my comment on the marketing machine of the religious right. I want to be clear that I'm not talking in general terms about religious people. Most Christians that I know, and it seems everyone here on this BB, are, well, just normal people.

But, over the past few years it seems that any time an issue comes up we see an immediate flurry of articles, op eds, guests on CNN, radio programs, etc, all "on message" and all blaming the liberals for bringing down the morals of our country. It really is amazing. In the last week spokespeople have come out of everywhere on TV, radio, Net & newspapers to claim that liberals are out to ruin Christmas, Pres Bush is bowing to them b/c his card doesn't say Merry Christmas, Bill O'Reilly asking people to boycott stores. The man interviewed on CNN today had this crazy look in his eye, it was creepy. It's just wild to me. How do they do it??

[MrsReber]

If you grew up celebrating Christmas you would probably continue to do so even if you ceased to believe in the religion.

However, at least in my experience having grown up as a cultural Jew, it is very uncommon for non-Christians to celebrate Christmas unless they have inter-married and are doing it because it is part of their spouse's tradition. That at least is my experience among the non-Christian people I know.



I don't think that's true at all. DH is not a devout Christian. We don't practice any religion, but we do celebrate Christmas. I have several friends who do not participate in any religion, but we all celebrate the holiday.

I don't doubt that it's your experience, but I don't think it applies to the majority. It was never a religious holiday for me. It was a time to remember family and friends.

As a matter of fact, my parents grew up with mother's who were of a particular religion that did not celebrate Christmas. My parents did start the tradition until I was 2 or 3, but we were never taught any Christian (or other) beliefs.

[Jessica]

In my experience, it is unusual for people who practice a religion other than Christianity to celebrate Christmas (ie Jews, Muslims, Hindus, etc.). However, I know many people who do not practice any religion but who celebrate Christmas.

[blazedog]

I didn't mean to imply that you had to be a devout Christian to celebrate Christmas -- i.e. have a tree, open presents, teach your children about Santa Claus.

However, it is more than likely that you grew up with that tradition - your family or your spouse's family celebrated Christmas in some manner even if they weren't "religious" and it is something that you have warm feelings about.

My experience is with a wide circle of Jewish friends and family and some Muslims/Buddhists and none of them celebrate Christmas in the popular sense unless they have a spouse who grew up with that tradition.

Of course people who don't "celebrate" Christmas go to dinners at people's homes on Christmas Eve or CHristmas Day, and/or have gone to tree trimming parties -- I don't think that is what most people mean by "celebrating" a holiday.

I think people need to differentiate between non-religious people who had a Christian background and non-religious people who grew up with a different set of religions and family traditions.

[ellielk]

In my experience, it is unusual for people who practice a religion other than Christianity to celebrate Christmas (ie Jews, Muslims, Hindus, etc.). However, I know many people who do not practice any religion but who celebrate Christmas.

And then there are those people who don't celebrate Christmas or Chanukah or the solstice or whatever but who DO celebrate the season by exchanging gifts, throwing parties, etc.

I have a friend who says if it includes food and presents, she's there.

[Kayaksoup]

We weren't allowed to have a Christmas Tree as a child. My mom and stepdad were extremist fundamentalist christians and believed that the Christmas tree was a pagan symbol that Satan had tricked Christians into using.

I kid you not.

We also weren't allowed to use regular playing cards. ...

[momqat]

Ellen Goodman's op-ed from today's Boston Globe (http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2005/12/09/what_would_the_druids_do/) has a pretty good take on this subject...

What would the Druids do?

By Ellen Goodman | December 9, 2005

WASHINGTON
SOME YEARS ago my husband was a last-minute draft pick to play the role of godfather at a young friend's naming ceremony. Admittedly, his relationship to organized religion was a bit dicey, but you know how it is in the understudy business.

In any case, at the end of the home ceremony, he leaned over and stage-whispered into the ear of the infant the promise that her training as a Druid would now commence.

You may be relieved to know that Laura was raised in a somewhat more traditional church. But now it appears that her few homilies on Druidry may come in handy.

This year, as you may know, a Christmas tree donated by Nova Scotia arrived in Boston disguised as a holiday tree. After much too much ado, it was finally lit as a Christmas tree. Meanwhile in Washington, the Capitol Holiday Tree was also rechristened by Dennis Hastert as the Capitol Christmas Tree. In Georgia too, the tree at the governor's mansion underwent a similar conversion.

In short, the sacred and co-opted evergreens of the Druids have become the symbols of the purist Christmas Christians. Somebody hug a tree for me; here we go again.

There are a dwindling number of battling days until Christmas. The malls are filled with so much Christmas Muzak that we are all longing for a silent night. Nevertheless, we are again treated to the notion that Christmas is beleaguered and besieged and battered by the forces of diversity and secularism.

Jerry Falwell's Liberty Counsel is running a ''Friend or Foe Christmas Campaign." James Dobson's Alliance Defense Fund is running a ''Christmas Project" with the motto: ''Merry Christmas. It's OK to say it."

Fox News's John Gibson has killed who knows how many trees to print ''The War on Christmas." The combined forces of the Catholic League, the American Family Association, and Bill O'Reilly have accused Target and others of banning Christmas by wishing their customers a ''Happy Holiday." And to top it all off, the Committee for Justice is running ads that promote Supreme Court nominee Samuel Alito as a sort of Father Christmas figure who will defend religion.

On the one hand, the Christmas defense team is portraying its side as the overwhelming majority, the 90 percent who celebrate Christmas. On the other hand they are describing themselves as oppressed, indeed victimized.

On the one hand they want more Christ in Christmas; on the other hand they want more Christmas in the marketplace. It makes one long for the screeds against commercialism.

The last real war against Christmas was, in fact, a religious war. It was waged in my hometown by Puritans who banned mince pies and plum puddings and declared that celebrating Christmas was a criminal offense. In 1711, Cotton Mather gave his famous lecture against ''mad mirth," ''long-eating," hard-drinking, and reveling ''fit for not but a Saturn or Bacchus."

As for American history, let us remember that Congress convened on the first Christmas of the new Republic, Dec. 25, 1789. Christmas wasn't a federal holiday until 1870.

I admit to being bemused with today's one-size-fits-all ''holiday" season. How did the celebration of the birth of Christ elevate Hanukkah from minor to major league status?

But living in an extended family as well as a country that celebrates holidays that range from Hanukkah and Christmas to the Chinese New Year with stops along the way for Druidism, I also understand why ''holiday" appears on everything from the president's greeting card -- with three pets frolicking in the snow -- to the office party. Conversely, one of the hallmarks of the culture wars is the way tolerance of diverse beliefs is reframed as intolerance for the majority. *Emphasis mine

We are familiar with seasonal blow-ups over church and state. Some end in absurd compromises that put Baby Jesus, the Maccabees, and Frosty in a December trinity. These cases are often thinly veiled battles for ownership of public space.

But this year's blow-up over church and store? A battle between Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays? I thought religion was supposed to remind us that there's a separation between pew and marketplace.

If the religious right is worrying about the erosion of Christmas, maybe they should focus more on the megachurches around the country that colluded to close on Sunday, Dec. 25, for fear they wouldn't have enough customers. Christmas, they demurred, is a family day. Happy Familyday to you?

As for this orchestrated seasonal battle, let's give the final word to the Druids. The mistletoe was also sacred to our Celtic forebears. That ritual kiss beneath the mistletoe was meant to seal the end of a dispute.

The war against Christmas? How about a little peace on earth.

Ellen Goodman's e-mail address is ellengoodman@globe.com.
© Copyright 2005 Globe Newspaper Company.

[blazedog]

We weren't allowed to have a Christmas Tree as a child. My mom and stepdad were extremist fundamentalist christians and believed that the Christmas tree was a pagan symbol that Satan had tricked Christians into using.

I kid you not.

We also weren't allowed to use regular playing cards. ...

Actually I believe you as my brother got on the mailing list of some wacky magazine -- could it be from the Children of God or something called The Watchtower? - and the magazines came every month like clockwork -- diatribes against Christmas, Valentines's Day and you can imagine the October issue. :eek:

[Kayaksoup]

I believe Watchtower is Jehovah's Witnesses.

Halloween just didn't happen at ALL when I was a kid. To be honest, my upbringing was so isolated that my only knowledge of secular holiday traditions came from my childcraft encyclopaedia (the world holidays and traditions volume) which my parents took away the first time they saw me read it. :rolleyes:
Boy was I in shock when I went to live with my dad :eek: Christmas Trees!! Lights!! Halloween!! Easter Bunnies!!

[tbb113]

Curious minds need to know...what was wrong with playing cards?

[newtricks]

I believe Watchtower is Jehovah's Witnesses.


Yep, no Christmas for them either. But I'm not sure if they think Satan is involved in our celebration of Christmas.

[HejazSunKat]

We also weren't allowed to use regular playing cards. ...

Dare I ask? What were you allowed to use? :D

[Kathy B]

I have relatives who are Nazarene, and they also do not use regular playing cards. They CAN use the cards for ROOK, which is another card game. I think for the Nazarenes anyway, the playing cards are seen as synonomous with gambling and can "lead one into temptation". My mom was raised Nazarene, and not only could not play cards, but could not dance (even with other girls in gym class) and could not go to the movies. All were considered the first step that could lead one in the wrong direction.

[MrsReber]

The Witnesses do not believe that Jesus was born on December 25th. If I remember correctly, they believe the date is really in October (different calendar, maybe?) In any event, they don't celebrate any holidays or birthdays.

I like what Jessica wrote- that's very true. I only grew up with the celebration of Christmas. I was thinking about this on my way home from work today. I never knew all the words to Silent Night as a child. When I did learn the words, I had no idea what they meant. I only knew that religions taught about Jesus. Nobody ever taught me any of that stuff.

What I meant was, I did not grow up with any religion. I celebrate Christmas because I was brought up with that tradition. My parents started it. Their parents didn't celebrate Christmas at all. Religion is a very weird thing for me because of my parents views on it. So though we do celebrate the "Christian" holidays, we don't celebrate the religious reasons behind them (Easter and Christmas are all I can think of, actually).

[blazedog]

The Witnesses do not believe that Jesus was born on December 25th. If I remember correctly, they believe the date is really in October (different calendar, maybe?) In any event, they don't celebrate any holidays or birthdays.

What I meant was, I did not grow up with any religion. I celebrate Christmas because I was brought up with that tradition. My parents started it. Their parents didn't celebrate Christmas at all. Religion is a very weird thing for me because of my parents views on it. So though we do celebrate the "Christian" holidays, we don't celebrate the religious reasons behind them (Easter and Christmas are all I can think of, actually).

I understand this perfectly well. Both my parents were atheists but we celebrated the Jewish holidays as part of our cultural tradition. My best friend's parents were also atheists but her mother's parents were Jewish atheists and her father's parents were Catholics (not sure if they were also atheists). When she was growing up, they had a Christmas tree because her father liked those aspects of Christmas -- gifts and trees and her mother didn't care one way or the other. She has a tree and presents for the kids although she obviously attaches no religious significance to the holiday. (And the kids are actually Jewish as lineage passes matrilinealy) :D

[GingerPow]

Actually I believe you as my brother got on the mailing list of some wacky magazine -- could it be from the Children of God or something called The Watchtower? - and the magazines came every month like clockwork -- diatribes against Christmas, Valentines's Day and you can imagine the October issue. :eek:

blazedog, I used to find those in my mailbox as well! They were from Jehovah's Witnesses. They would knock on my door about once a month too.

I had a friend who converted to Jehovah's Witness. No more birthday or Christmas celebrations for her daughter. This woman was full of fun and sparkle, so I have no idea what about their doctrine appealed to her. Her husband did not agree with her new viewpoints at all, and it did contribute to their eventual divorce.

[Kayaksoup]

Curious minds need to know...what was wrong with playing cards?
Apparently the spade (or clubs, can't remember which) is a demonic symbol...

[Kayaksoup]

I have relatives who are Nazarene, and they also do not use regular playing cards. They CAN use the cards for ROOK, which is another card game. I think for the Nazarenes anyway, the playing cards are seen as synonomous with gambling and can "lead one into temptation". My mom was raised Nazarene, and not only could not play cards, but could not dance (even with other girls in gym class) and could not go to the movies. All were considered the first step that could lead one in the wrong direction.
Rook is the grown up game, Uno for the kids in my family (all of the Christian ones, not just the extremists).
Nazarene sounds very similar to my upbringing.

[Becky13347]

This thread may be past its prime but I find myself with something to say. I am a moderate christian (Presbyterian) and I celebrate Christmas. I am wondering why there is a debate about whether or not people of other religions should or do celebrate Christmas. Christmas is at its core a religious holiday celebrating the birth of Christ who was God's gift to us. Christ taught us to be kind, loving and welcoming to many and all different types of people. Whether you believe he was a savior or not, he did teach tolerance. If it takes this holiday to bring families together and remind us of our love for one another-what difference does it make how they got there? (by marriage, because of a friend, etc.)

The celebrating of Christmas is a time to show others how much they mean to you and how much you care for them. This is what gift giving is about. I am offended by the large amount of people on this thread assuming that because I buy gifts for those I love, that I am somehow a slave to the retail world and have lost my understanding of Christmas. God gave us His gift (Christ) because he loved us- I give gifts to others because I love them.

Also, I have never been offended by another religion's traditions. I have been surrounded by Jewish people my entire life. I taught in a Muslim school and never felt threatened or offended by their traditions AND I participated in their traditions to show my repect for them as people and to learn about a religion most Americans do not understand. What WAS offensive was that I was not allowed to discuss with any of my students the fact that I was christian, I was not allowed to explain what christian beliefs are nor show the ways in which are religions are the same (the old testment stories are similar in SOO many ways in Jewish and Muslim traditions) This suppression and denial of differences is what creates problems.

The Christmas tree and Menorah provide light for a world lost in darkness. They are symbols of hope and joy and peace. I don't care what religion they associated with today. If you can give this world a little joy and peace and hope, it shouldn't matter how it's packaged.

Merry Christmas
Happy Hannukah
Happy Kwanzaa
Happy New Year

[Becky13347]

And one more thing............ :)
Santa Claus is not "lying to our children" about a man who doesn't exist. He actually did exist -St. Nicholas of Myra and is known for his generosity, care and love for children. (He is also the patron saint of ships and sailors). If you think about it Saint Nicholas evolves into Santa Claus as language changes over the years.

For more: http://www.stnicholascenter.org/Brix?pageID=38

Again, the theme of love and caring and giving, what's wrong with that?

[tperes]

I am offended by the large amount of people on this thread assuming that because I buy gifts for those I love, that I am somehow a slave to the retail world and have lost my understanding of Christmas. God gave us His gift (Christ) because he loved us- I give gifts to others because I love them.




I don't think one is necessarily a "slave to the retail world" by purchasing gifts, however, when people become offended because store clerks are saying "Happy Holidays" rather than "Merry Christmas," -- is bothersome. They are retailers out for your (and I am not implying you, but all consumers) money, nothing else. They don't care if you are Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, Pagan, Atheist, Agnostic or New Age...your money is all US $$, and that is what they want.

There is nothing wrong with giving gifts to other people. I don't think anyone on this thread (me included) has said that. However, I do think people have lost sight of the reasons for giving gifts when people are trampled at 5 a.m. at a Wal-Mart "Day-After Thanksgiving" "Pre-Holiday" sale, all because they wanted a $100 X-box or some sort of item. How is that teaching us to have a giving spirit? To love our fellow humans? To be tolerant and accepting of one another, despite our cultural differences?

Maybe we all need a break for the crazy consumerism that has become Christmas in the U.S.? Seriously, am I alone in this?

[Meganator]

Maybe we all need a break for the crazy consumerism that has become Christmas in the U.S.? Seriously, am I alone in this?

In theory, I wish Christmas weren't so consumption-oriented. However, in reality, I think a) there are enough people who do get caught up in the consumerism that that part of Christmas isn't going away anytime soon, and b) it is a big boon to our local and national economy.

Those of us who don't like the consumption of the season can simply opt out. Speaking for myself, I rarely set foot in a non-grocery retail store between Thanksgiving and Christmas, except an occasional foray into Target or Lowe's for necessities, or on a weekday during lunchtime. I do some shopping online and before Thanksgiving, or at local venues that are pleasant, rather than a hassle - such as the local Christmas bazaar with live music and local craftspeople. I socialize with friends instead of exchanging gifts. I give gifts to a few people I am close to, and I never feel obligated to give a gift just because I receive one. I think people complain so much about things unnecessarily - just be proactive and change your little corner of the world to suit you, and don't worry about everyone else.

[Lucinda]

I have many agnostic friends who "celebrate" Christmas in that they have a tree, decorate, exchange presents on the 25th. They don't decorate their home with a nativity scene however. I have one friend who is an atheist who decorates like she is celebrating Christmas, but exchanges presents on the Winter solstice. Personally, I think there are many non-religious people who celebrate the date of Christmas without celebrating the Christian reason for it.
Exactly! I am Deist, but still celebrate Christmas/Winter Solstice/St. Lucy's Day (my name day which fell on the Winter Solstice under the old calendar). For me it's a chance to spend extra special time with my friends and family and welcome the lenghtening of the days, as well as to reflect on the cycle of life. There's no religious meaning to it, just a deeply spiritual one.

[Lucinda]

The Witnesses do not believe that Jesus was born on December 25th. If I remember correctly, they believe the date is really in October (different calendar, maybe?)

I once read some research by a scholar who said that a close reading of the Gospels indicated Jesus' birth most likely took place in October-- something to do with where the shepherds were grazing their flocks and when the Roman taxation took place.

December 25th was the Feast of Mithras in Roman times and it is entirely possible that when Christianity was outlawed, early Christians chose to celebrate an important holiday when their neighbors were celebrating their own holiday, so as not to draw attention to themselves.

[Becky13347]

I agree consumerism is way out of control in this country. ithink it is out of control all year round though not just at Christmas. People allow themselves to be so controlled by advertising creating this "you must have this now" attitude , it's ridiculous. I feel horrible for people who get trampled at sales, sporting events, or what not because others can't or won't control their impulses in what seems to be becoming a me, me, me nation.