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bobmark226
01-29-2006, 08:30 AM
I stumbled on this by accident looking for something else. I know nothing about the source, alteranet, but the article, based on shopping in Texas, was extremely interesting, so I thought I might share it for what it's worth. It's interesting that they point up WF's own labor issues since Walmart is repeatedly bashed for this.

A link to the direct article can be found at the header of the article for those who prefer to read it there.

Bob

****



Natural Food, Unnatural Prices
By Stan Cox, AlterNet
Posted on January 25, 2006, Printed on January 29, 2006
http://www.alternet.org/story/31260/

Roaming the parking lot of a San Antonio shopping center last month, my wife Priti and I came upon a Whole Foods Market. I couldn't resist hitting the brakes. For years, from our home in Kansas, we'd been reading and hearing about this king-of-the-hill among natural food retailers, and we wanted to see what all the fuss was about.

I found a parking spot between an Outback and a Prius. In moments, we had left the land of steel and asphalt behind and stepped into a world of biological wonders. The robust-looking bread, in all the right shades of toasty brown, was clearly far more than an inert sandwich-support medium; even the few lonely white-bread specimens looked good. The fruits and vegetables actually looked and smelled like fruits and vegetables. The bulk bins formed a solid base for the best of food pyramids. In the deli and packaged-food sections, it was an invigorating experience simply to read the labels.

The work day was just starting, and the employees, most of them anyway, were genuinely friendly and seemingly delighted with their lot in life -- to be young, healthy and working at Whole Foods. These "team members," as they're known in company lingo, have signed on with a major-league powerhouse. With 180 stores in the United States, Canada and the United Kingdom, annual sales of $4.6 billion and profits of $160 million, Whole Foods recently moved into the Fortune 500.

But then we started looking around for something to buy. As we stared bug-eyed at the lofty price tags, I wondered aloud what sort of income it would take to become a regular Whole Foods shopper. Priti had an idea: Why not give Whole Foods the Wal-Mart test?

Return of the cashier-shopper

Priti was referring to a June 2003 AlterNet article in which I asked this seemingly simple question: In view of Wal-Mart's vast range of merchandise and "Always Low Prices," could a family whose breadwinner worked at the Wal-Mart Supercenter in Salina, Kan., afford to supply its minimum needs by shopping there?

I'd relied on published studies that computed the cost of an "adequate but austere" life for a family with one adult and two children in Salina. The budget included only the basics: shelter, transportation, food, routine toiletries and medicines, and not much more. Housing and transportation can't be bought at Wal-Mart (yet), but almost all other necessities can be.

The bottom line: Our Wal-Mart cashier could not satisfy such a bare-survival budget even if she worked 40 hours per week, more hours than a typical Wal-Mart workweek. And as you might expect, in trying to keep the family within such a budget, I condemned them to an array of foods that were boring, unappealing, and not very nutritious -- and produced in ways that most customers would prefer not to know about.

But is that inevitable? Or is the nation's corporate food system capable of supplying people at all income levels with products of the quality we saw at Whole Foods?

Salina to San Antonio

I took Priti up on her suggestion, moving the hypothetical family from Salina to San Antonio, and having my cashier work and buy groceries at Whole Foods. I used the same list of foods -- a minimal, USDA-recommended "low-cost food plan" -- that I'd used at the Salina Wal-Mart.

Back at Whole Foods, we followed the same simulated-shopping rules, selecting the cheapest food in each food category and the cheapest brand of that type. Using those prices, I computed the monthly cost of feeding an adult female, a 12-year-old boy and a 4-year-old child.

At Salina's Wal-Mart, the bill had been $232, plus sales tax. At Whole Foods, the same basket of food cost $564. Texas has no sales tax on food, and Whole Foods employees get a 20 percent discount, bringing the cost for the San Antonio cashier all the way down to $451. That monthly price tag includes only the cheapest foods in each category, and none of the store's popular luxury items.

The starting wage for a cashier at Salina's Wal-Mart in 2003 was $6.25, which fell $146 per month short of meeting her family's survival budget. Whole Foods employees in three states told me that a starting cashier's wages tend to be between $7 and $8, but according to Whole Foods spokesperson Ashley Hawkins, a poll of all company regions showed a starting wage of $8 to $10.

Let's assume that the cost of nonfood necessities in present-day San Antonio is similar to Salina circa 2003 (although it's undoubtedly higher, and the San Antonio cashier might not have access to the full day-care subsidy that low-income Kansas workers get). A $10-per-hour employee determined to shop at Whole Foods could manage to do so. An $8-per-hour employee could meet the bare-survival food budget, but with nothing left over. At $7, she would miss the mark by more than the Wal-Mart cashier-shopper. The situation would be worse in a state like Kansas that taxes food sales.

Hawkins says Whole Foods' full-time turnover rate is 24.7 percent, so the above wages would apply to approximately one-fourth of employees. She says the companywide average wage is $15, and that health care, 401(k), stock option and stock purchase plans (after about 10-12 months' employment) have helped earn Whole Foods a place on Fortune magazine's list of the "100 best companies to work for" for the past nine years.

Blinded by uniqueness

But not all employees agree with Fortune's assessment. Jeremy Plague was among the Madison, Wis., Whole Foods employees who managed to form a union (the only one in the company's history) for a period between 2002 and 2004, eventually succumbing to Whole Foods' fierce anti-union policies.

Says Plague, "In my experience, most people really liked working at Whole Foods for the first few months, blinded by the uniqueness of the store and by their hippie rhetoric of how we all mattered. But then people hit the six-month wall where they realize that it's all a bunch of BS, and Whole Foods is just like every other money-hungry corporation … It's all a great, worker- and environment-friendly system until you get to the actual people working in the stores, stocking the shelves and ringing you up at the register."

A website created by the Madison organizing effort, wholeworkersunite.org, remains active as a gathering place for current and former Whole Foods employees critical of company policies.

Critics of my cashier-shopper analysis argue that jobs with retailers like Whole Foods or Wal-Mart aren't meant to support families. But to the extent that that's true, neither employer can be viewed as a model for the economy at large. And given the wage and price policies of the two companies, one thing is clear: Customers who frequent Whole Foods are unlikely to be Wal-Mart cashiers or other low-income earners.

Whole Foods CEO John Mackey is frank about that. He recently told The Independent (UK), "You can't have it both ways. If you want the highest quality, it costs more. It's like complaining that a BMW is more expensive than a Hyundai. Yes, but you're getting a better car."

And few Whole Foods Markets are situated in economy-car country. Of the 170 stores in the U.S., none are located in zip codes with average 2003 household incomes at or below $31,000 -- the approximate income earned by a full-time employee earning the average Whole Foods wage.

Only nine of the 170 stores are in zip codes with incomes of $43,300 or lower. That was the median income in the United States that year (that is, half of U.S. households had incomes lower, and half of them higher, than $43,300).

Half of the zip codes with Whole Foods stores lie above $72,000 in average income. A fourth of them exceed $100,000.

Mackey's defense of high prices is mirrored in Wal-Mart CEO Lee Scott's defense of his company's low wages, which he summed up in an address to employees last October: "I ask anyone to do the math. Even slight overall adjustments to wages eliminate our thin profit margin." And, said Scott, price increases are out of the question because even as it is, "our customers simply don't have the money to buy necessities between paychecks."

Is it possible for a corporation that sells everyday, necessary products like food to do three things at once: (1) pay a living wage, (2) charge prices that most people can afford and (3) provide an acceptable return to its shareholders?

Clearly, Wal-Mart gives top priority to shareholders. Then come customers and, bringing up the rear, workers. As expected, its degrees of success follow in that same order, with workers sacrificed to satisfy the first two priorities. But what would happen to its wages and prices if Wal-Mart, notorious for putting the price squeeze on its suppliers, were to commit itself to marketing only sustainably produced, high-quality goods?

And, returning to Whole Foods, the same question can be put another way: Does it manage to make the list of "best companies to work for" only because of the premium prices paid by its customers? How would Whole Foods' merchandise quality, pay and benefits look if it tried to match Wal-Mart's customer base, maybe not in size but in socioeconomic diversity?

Whole-food, nonmarket solutions

Many academics and grassroots activists in the sustainable-agriculture movement are asking those kinds of questions, doing some hard thinking about how society can pay farmers (preferably noncorporate farmers) adequately to raise nutritious food in less ecologically destructive ways while keeping the end products affordable for all.

Clearly, our hypothetical cashiers, wherever they work, would benefit from having their own vegetable garden. But unless, against all odds, they also managed to raise a lot of staple foods on their own -- wheat, dry beans, maybe some chickens or dairy animals -- or had plenty of time for fishing, they would still be largely reliant on purchased food of some kind.

Like many in her profession, Rhonda Janke, associate professor of horticulture and a sustainable cropping systems specialist at Kansas State University, is a big advocate of locally produced food, farmers' markets and community supported agriculture, or CSA. (In a typical CSA arrangement, consumers contract with a farmer in their area to deliver a certain quantity of food on an agreed schedule during the growing season. The kinds of foods delivered depends on what's in season.)

As for making good, locally produced food affordable, Janke notes that "many CSAs have provisions for 'work shares' and reduced cost shares for low-income families, and that can be part of a 'local safety net'. But that doesn't eliminate the need for the grower to get full price from a minimum number of full-paying customers."

Janke asks, "What do you consider a living wage for a farmer, and does that make the price of food go up? If all farmers got $10 per hour, not counting [federal subsidies], what would food cost? Would the price at Wal-Mart go up? Whole Foods?"

She believes that leaving it up to the big retailers would put food out of reach for a lot of people: "I think the only conclusion one can logically come to is that market forces alone are not going to provide enough healthy food to everyone in our society."

In that spirit, a growing number of pioneering nonprofit organizations are working to put good food within economic reach of their local communities. One of them is People's Grocery in Oakland, Calif. The nonprofit, community-based organization sells fresh produce and staples through its store and Mobile Market -- a "grocery store on wheels" that travels through West Oakland making regular stops. The organization also has extensive educational programs and has helped establish a growing network of community gardens that currently provide 25 percent of the produce it sells.

I asked co-founder Brahm Ahmadi what makes it possible for People's Grocery to sell good, natural food that low-income families can afford, while Whole Foods can't. He said the fundamental difference is that "they're pursuing profit and we aren't."

Ahmadi says good food doesn't have to be expensive. "Because of its huge size, Whole Foods receives a deeper discount from its suppliers than any other natural-food retailer. Yet the prices in its stores are among the most expensive. They are purely profit-driven, so they do not allow that cost benefit to go to the customer."

Once, says Ahmadi, a Whole Foods executive told him, "We could not market food the way you do, because our shareholders simply wouldn't allow it."

People's Grocery subsidizes its efforts through charitable funding, with the understanding that the donated money will go to hold prices down. But as the low-income market strengthens, says Ahmadi, People's Grocery will try to reduce its dependency on contributions by marketing food that it obtains directly from producers, cutting out as many steps of the expensive supply chain as possible.

The growth of the natural-food industry may have been phenomenal in recent years, but Ahmadi predicts that its relatively affluent target market cannot avoid saturation: "Companies will have to project what new markets they can turn to. And there's substantial growth potential among low-income shoppers. They account for almost half of food retail in the U.S. -- that's $85 billion."

Indirectly echoing Rhonda Janke's conclusion that "market forces alone are not enough," Ahmadi says, "We need to build demand that can thrive and grow on its own," but in low-income areas "it has to be done differently. It requires a grassroots approach with community organizations that have track records."

And community organizations working in not-so-posh urban zip codes from coast to coast are establishing just such track records. They include, among others, Garden-Raised Bounty in Olympia, Wash., Growing Power in Milwaukee and Added Value in Brooklyn, N.Y.

But a more thoroughgoing overhaul of the nation's food systems may be needed to reach the majority of city dwellers, as well as vast, less densely populated rural regions between the coasts. Of the 500 poorest counties in the United States, more than 450 are rural. Ironically, it is in highly productive, ecologically threatened agricultural regions that sustainably produced, nutritious food is least widely available.

To organizations like People's Grocery, it's unacceptable that such food is accessible to some families and not to others simply on the basis of where they live or how much they earn. As Brahm Ahmadi puts it, "We're not talking about a luxury item here. Good food is a basic need."

Stan Cox is a plant breeder and writer in Salina, Kan.

© 2006 Independent Media Institute. All rights reserved.
View this story online at: http://www.alternet.org/story/31260/

Farhana
01-29-2006, 08:51 AM
WOW! Thanks for posting this. I go to the regular supermarket to buy everything we need, not that I don't want to buy organic/natural food, they are way too pricey for me. UNNATURAL PRICE indeed. The only time we went to a whole food store made me wonder, wow, people actually pay this(these)
much to buy their stuff :eek: !

Sami
01-29-2006, 12:48 PM
Whenever I visit DD1 in Cambridge, MA, I can walk to Whole Foods and so that is where I buy groceries. It always amazes me how expensive it is, but the alternative is to get lost driving around.

Sami

Tally
01-29-2006, 01:15 PM
Interesting article, thanks for posting it.

The closest thing in my town to a Whole Foods is a cooperative market that was started in the early 70's by students who couldn't find the foods and supplies they wanted to buy at local markets. Today, it's smaller than a Whole Foods, but carries much of the same products, albeit a lot of locally grown produce Even though it's a non-profit, the high prices and relatively low wages of its employees is similar to the analysis of Whole Foods. I can't imagine buying all of my groceries and supplies there, but probably spend about 5-10 percent of my grocery budget on organic produce, deli items, local artisanal cheese and the odd ethnic item I can't find anywhere else.

My DH worked there for a few years, and to quote the article below, once the "hippie rhetoric" wore off, it was the same as working at any grocery store - long hours, sometimes unpleasant customers, and annoying management.

Aubergine
01-29-2006, 03:01 PM
hey, bob, you should think about starting a blog at a place like the huffington post, 'cause you truly have your ear to the ground and turn up such good stuff! WF, to me, has always seemed like the Emperor's New Clothes, in a nutshell. or, as P.T. Barnum used to say....

suz

Romandub
01-29-2006, 03:32 PM
We live in Austin and I remember the original Whole Foods Market that was started sometime around 1980, when Austin was still essentially a University (Hook 'em Horns!) and government town. Whole Foods was were all the hippies went to get their organic groceries before any of the rest of us even knew what that meant. I came to Austin in 1976 to go to UT and discovered WHole Foods the summer I graduated--fell in love with their smoothies! But the original store was small and kind of crowded and as I said, only the more eclectic shopped there. Austin had a big flood over Memorial Day weekend in 1981 and as I recall, I think the store flooded pretty badly, but reopened. From those humble beginnings to an international empire...what a story!!!! Now when we have visitors to Austin, a stop at the new flagship Whole Foods is a must!

Lrimerman
01-29-2006, 03:53 PM
Thanks for sharing this article. I have to have DH read this too. We do a lot of our shopping at WF and it is expensive, but all else being equal, I prefer the organic selection, can't find it anywhere else. I also like their deli meats as they don't have MSG in them, but are $$$ and just went up a dollar a pound recently.

We try to buy a lot of stuff at our local buying club/co-op and in the summer our CSA. Meat we get from local farmers. Generally it is all more expensive than a regular grocery store, but some of it isn't really so expensive, and is soooo much better tasting and quality.

Our beef costs about $2.50 a pound and is local, pasture raised and the taste/quality is better than any we have bought even at nice meat markets. Of course, in the summer what we get at our CSA is much cheaper than anything we could buy elsewhere and the freshness and quality is outstanding. It is all organic too.

Lisa

Angelina
01-29-2006, 07:43 PM
I will shop at Whole Foods for as long as it's convenient to me, considering it's a few blocks from my job. Yes, it might be more expensive than the small supermarket in Queens, on my way home. But what is really more convenient? A pound of shriveled up, mushy, tasteless oranges for cheap, or a pound of delicious, juicy blood oranges at $1.89? I really have better things to do with my money than waste it on substandard food, which, by the way, goes in MY body.

I don't want chicken injected with salt, I don't want produce covered in pesticides, I don't want plastic-tasting milk and it makes me so mad that is all that is available to me in a regular grocery store!! :mad:

And no, no CSA. No farms. No milk delivery. Nothing.

Angela

momcancook
01-29-2006, 07:45 PM
Our beef costs about $2.50 a pound and is local, pasture raised and the taste/quality is better than any we have bought even at nice meat markets. Of course, in the summer what we get at our CSA is much cheaper than anything we could buy elsewhere and the freshness and quality is outstanding. It is all organic too.

Lisa

Bob, Thanks for the article!!

Lisa, I live in Lake Orion, and would be very interested in knowing more about where you by beef. I shop selectively at WF, as the choices elsewhere are not as substantial, or fresh. The supplement selection is the best in my area.

moonbeam
01-29-2006, 08:33 PM
Bob,
Thanks for the article. We are supposed to get a WF in 2007 (at least that is the rumor). We have stopped shopping at WalMart because of our concern regarding worker's wages and med. insurance. I currently shop at 2 stores, one that has cheap, but not always in stock staples, and another for meat and some produce.
I read about the People's Grocery in the Sierra Club magazine and am impressed with their efforts. However, for them to compare their prices to WF is not fair, because their overhead is so much lower. One store and a mobile market cannot compare to 170 stores and all the costs associated with a large corporation.

green1
01-30-2006, 06:17 AM
Producing organic foods is overall expensive compared to conventional foods. There aren't as many people doing it. I would rather pay a little more for better quality food and ingredients than cheap food with everything that is unatural in it or on it. I belonged to a monthly organic crop club last year and it was just as expensive as shopping at WF. And that was the least expensive club we could find.

heavy hedonist
01-30-2006, 11:32 AM
Thanks for the article-- very interesting.

funniegrrl
01-30-2006, 11:40 AM
I will never fault someone for CHOOSING to pay more for organic or whatever. But, there are plenty of people -- myself included -- who simply cannot afford it. If I spend money on the very high prices at Wild Oats (similar to WF) rather than the moderate prices at Kroger for non-organic, then that means less money for utilities, clothing, etc. I don't have cable, I don't have DSL, I have a cell phone with no photo capabilities with a bare-bones plan that allows me to use it for emergencies. Etc. I don't spend money on a lot of things that other people would consider necessities of modern life. Would I rather eat organic? Sure. But only people with disposable income can afford to do that, and that ain't me and it sure ain't a lot of other folks. I DO choose very actively not to shop at Wal-Mart, but I can afford to go to Kroger and Target instead. Not everyone has that choice.

tbb113
01-30-2006, 11:50 AM
I understand that the point of the article is that quality food should be available for all. But IMHO, it's a stupid idea that the person that works at a store should be paid enough to afford the merchandise.

There is a great shoe store that just opened selling high end women's purses and shoes ( Christian Louboutin, Giuseppe Zanotti, Jimmy Choo, and Manolo Blahnik, etc). Do you honestly think they can pay the staff enough money to shop there? How about car salesman and jewelry salesman? Can they afford the merchandise?

veschke
01-30-2006, 12:17 PM
But IMHO, it's a stupid idea that the person that works at a store should be paid enough to afford the merchandise.

Generally, yes, but food is a little more basic to Maslow's pyramid then designer shoes. :-) And a lot of people might assume that selling organic produce means the company practices inordinately high business ethics or something like that. (Only an occasional customer myself, as they don't have a local store.)

Interesting article.

Tizzylish
01-30-2006, 12:38 PM
I will never fault someone for CHOOSING to pay more for organic or whatever. But, there are plenty of people -- myself included -- who simply cannot afford it. If I spend money on the very high prices at Wild Oats (similar to WF) rather than the moderate prices at Kroger for non-organic, then that means less money for utilities, clothing, etc. I don't have cable, I don't have DSL, I have a cell phone with no photo capabilities with a bare-bones plan that allows me to use it for emergencies. Etc. I don't spend money on a lot of things that other people would consider necessities of modern life. Would I rather eat organic? Sure. But only people with disposable income can afford to do that, and that ain't me and it sure ain't a lot of other folks. I DO choose very actively not to shop at Wal-Mart, but I can afford to go to Kroger and Target instead. Not everyone has that choice.

Very well said Funniegrrl. Another family who pinches every penny, right down to only having one vehicle my DH and I share at the moment.

Everyone should be entitled to organic foods wether you make 20,000 a year or 100,000 a year. I am not talking snazzy premade foods, prime aged beef, exotic fruits and veggies, I am talking basics like chicken that isn't injected with who knows what, pesticides on our fruits and veggies, ect, ect, ect. In the summer I grow my own organic heirloom veggies, but come winter I'm pretty much screwed, either struggle to pay premium price or have my children eat pesticides and hormones. :(

Jessica
01-30-2006, 12:39 PM
This is an interesting article, but I guess I don't see the problem. Whole Foods is a business like any business and it is out to make money. Just because it has a wholesome appearance doesn't change the fact that it is a capitalist venture. All public companies give priority to shareholders. As for the locations of stores, we don't have a Prada boutique in my neighborhood, either. Stores locate where they can do the most business.

I agree that everyone should be able to buy healthy food, but our society has not structured its food supply that way, and WF is hardly to blame for that.

I shop at Whole Foods for specialty items, but when I was younger and had less DI, I shopped only at discount grocers. We cut back on other things to make budget room for organic produce and some meat, but I understand not everyone can do that. FTR--we don't have cable TV, either.

My sister worked at a WF for a while. She didn't love it but she didn't starve and she certainly bought some of her food there.

I think very few people go to WF for everything they buy; most people I know buy products there that are unavailable in other places. My WF has cheaper everyday prices on some items, such as peanut butter and canned beans, and milk is the same as just about every store in town. It also carries some items that other stores do not. Cooking is my hobby, and quality food is a passion for me. I consider a shopping trip to WF the same as a woodworker might consider a trip to Home Depot.

SDMomChef
01-30-2006, 12:40 PM
I will never fault someone for CHOOSING to pay more for organic or whatever. But, there are plenty of people -- myself included -- who simply cannot afford it.

You said it! As a family of five, it is just not economically feasible for us to eat only organic food. We do belong to a CSA in the summer - not cheap, but I feel good about doing that little bit to support organic farmers. I wish I could do more, but just can't. As for the article, the information in the article doesn't surprise me in the least.

KAnn
01-30-2006, 02:04 PM
I boycott Walmart for a whole host of reasons, most of which have been discussed on the board. I do about 70% of my food shopping at Wild Oats (there is a WO just blocks from my house) and I shop a little at Whole Foods. I shop very carefully and I doubt I spend much more on my food bill than those who shop at Walmart and I know I am investing in my health and that is ultimately worth it to me. I buy as much organic produce as I can(and I purchase organic produce at Safeway and King Soopers, too) and I only buy organic dairy and eggs. I eat some fish but no meat. I can't do things perfectly and I can't do all my shopping at Wild Oats and Whole Foods but I care a lot about socially responsible shopping and voting with my dollars. If I do spend more on groceries, I believe that it is worth it in terms of future health care dollars and my quality of life.

blazedog
01-30-2006, 02:29 PM
I don't see why it has to be black or white. I know I am blessed with food choices in Los Angeles and I go to Whole Foods almost never --

better produce at Farmers Markets and other supermarkets including organic

cheaper stuff including organic at TJ and ethnic markets including buying fish at an Asian market.

I don't buy bakery items, breads, prepared foods etc. as I can make them better and more healthy.

TJ provides a model for a store that delivers healthy food at a reasonable price -- somewhat like Costco, it doesn't carry everything but does always have reasonably priced organic chicken, beef, pork as well as veggies.

And Costco delivers food savings without exploiting its work force to the extent Walmart does -- just doesn't make sense for me to shop at Costco for my needs.

What is more alarming is the dearth of ANY food choices in ghetto neighborhoods where there are often no supermarkets of any kind and food must be bought at bodegas or their ilk which tend to have almost no fresh produce, meat and high prices. There was an article in the NY Times last week about a program that was attempting to get bodega owners in NYC to carry low fat milk.

Aubergine
01-30-2006, 05:05 PM
I understand that the point of the article is that quality food should be available for all. But IMHO, it's a stupid idea that the person that works at a store should be paid enough to afford the merchandise.

There is a great shoe store that just opened selling high end women's purses and shoes ( Christian Louboutin, Giuseppe Zanotti, Jimmy Choo, and Manolo Blahnik, etc). Do you honestly think they can pay the staff enough money to shop there? How about car salesman and jewelry salesman? Can they afford the merchandise?

i beg to differ. when i worked at a very upscale and expensive art gallery on upper madison avenue in the 70's, earning peanuts, i was able to put together a very respectable small collection of fine works, thanks to employee discounts (also extended by other galleries to other galleries' employees), no interest time-payment plans, and outright gifts from some of the artists. my mom worked in retail in nyc and used to get huge bargains on samples. car salesmen usually drive a demo car. etc. etc. etc. there's far more margain at the expensive end of retail for employee purchasing opportunities than there is at the low end, like grocery workers.

suz

tbb113
01-30-2006, 05:12 PM
The discounts and perks of the 70's and 80's in general don't exist in 2006.

Not saying that all employees don't get discounts (I used to work for a major outdoor retail company and got a great 50% discount...but the stuff was STILL expensive). If you are making minimum wage, you aren't buying $900 purses and $400 pairs of shoes (even at 50% off). And the car industry as of 10 years ago (my father was in the industry) stopped giving salesmen demos. It is now usually reserved for management only.

blazedog
01-30-2006, 05:19 PM
Well this is going wildly afield since Aubergine's original point was that people who work for a living selling high end things are generally selling them to a higher income group of people.

I believe there was a case that was settled a few years ago when one of the higher end stores insisted that the workers wear their clothes but didn't provide the "uniform."