Sourdough Starters

[Laura B]

OK, I am very tempted to buy a sourdough starter set from King Arthur. However, I am not clear about how they work and how you take care of one. Beth, I know that you have mentioned that you have a really old starter. Any tips?

[Beth]

I just posted about sourdough pizza crust on another thread (yeast). I must have known someone was calling! http://www.cookinglight.com/bbs/biggrin.gif

I have not used a starter packet, but I'm sure once you get it going is would work much the same as mine (I started my own, but you may get better flavor faster with a packet. I read that a starter matures and takes 6 mos to a year to get full flavor. I noticed a sublte change in mine, but can't tell you how much it has continued).

My one tip for getting a starter going would be to use boiled or bottled water, possibly filtered or water that has been able to sit and let any chlorine disapate for at least 24 hrs. The chlorine may overpower the yeast in the starter at the beginning. I have not noticed a problem with tap water in feeding and keeping the starter.

Basically, sourdough started as a way of baking leavened bread when yeast was not readily available. The baker would take a portion of the rising dough each day and save it to provide the yeast for the next day's bread. The yeast grows, multiplies and gives off gas (for raising dough) and liquid. If I recall correctly, it is a fermentation process in the liquid that creates the tanginess of sourdough. You are going to do something similar.

Once established, you need to feed the starter each time you use it. Feeding the starter is basically replacing what you took out. If you use a cup of starter, you feed it a cup of water and a cup of flour (I use about 2/3 - 3/4 cup water to 1 cup flour and adjust if the starter seems to be getting too thick or too thin). Stir that up and let it sit on the counter, covered, but not airtight, about 8 hours, then it's ready to use or chill.

The starter will typically feed and be ready to use again in 8-12 hours, but you can then refrigerate it and keep it for a week or two between uses. I have gone a month between uses, but I'm not always confident about how well it will keep going. I've read that you can freeze starter and thaw for the next use. The only time I tried that was when I moved 2000 miles and wanted to be sure some made the trip. I froze half and fed the other half just before we left and carried it on the plane (in a gallon zip lock inside another one...and burped at least once on the way).

When you take the starter out to use, it will probably have a layer of liquid on top. If it is clear with a brownish tint, stir it back in. If the liquid ever turns pink, the starter has spoiled and you need to toss it. It is best to let the starter reach room temp. before using it, especially for breads. It also seems to make waffles
stick less and cook better (you can measure our a cup in a pyrex 2-cup measuring cup or similar and give it 30 sec to a min on defrost in the micro. The starter will expand when it gets warmer, so don't put in a full container.)

That's pretty much the basics. We use ours to make pizza crust, pancakes and waffles, scones now more than basic bread. That's it off the top of my head, but let me know if you have other questions.

Oh, You don't need a fancy crock or anything. I keep my starter in a Tupperware or similar container. That works fine, just don't use metal containers or utensils. You could have a reaction (don't ask me what kind, but every book says that). I have used a metal whisk for making pancake of waffle batter, especially folding in egg whites, without a problem, so it's not an instantaneous reaction. It won't blow up or anything like that. Have fun! Beth



[This message has been edited by Beth (edited 06-14-2001).]

[Laura B]

Thanks, Beth! What container do you keep your starter in? King Arthur sells a special crock, but will any covered container suffice?

[HUNGRY!]

http://www.cookinglight.com/bbs/smile.gif http://www.cookinglight.com/bbs/smile.gif http://www.cookinglight.com/bbs/smile.gif http://www.cookinglight.com/bbs/smile.gif

Thanks Beth! I just got my library card yesterday after moving and the first book I checked out was CL 1989. (Three whole rows of cookbooks---I can't wait!!!!!!)

Anyway, one of the recipies was for a sourdough starter, and your instructions will help me a lot when I attempt this. I was a little nervouse!!

[Anne]

Hi Beth. Thanks for the detailed explanation. I have been doing sourdough for years and could never have described the process so well.
Hi Laura. If I loose my starter and can't get another quickly from friends (always the best source) I boil a skinned potato, let cool, smush up in the water it was boiled in, add flour until the consistency of thin pancake batter, and let sit for a week. Our house tends to be on the cool side so if I am planning on making sourdough I get the starter out a couple days ahead of time and start feeding it. If you plan on using grains other than wheat, keep your starter pure wheat and add the other flours to your current-use batch. I learned this the hard way with both buckwheat and rye - at least in my house, keeping the main starter going with these grains did not work. Good luck! A major advantage of sourdough pancakes and waffles is no beating and folding egg whites.

I keep my starter and working batch in glass or a ceramic lidded pot (currently a bean crock). I try and avoid plastic anywhere near food but that is my own personnal quirk.

[Beth]

My starter is currently in a large (about 3 qt) Rubbermaid container. I have also used a 2-3 qt Tupperware container. I think any non-metallic container will do, but keep in mind that the gases that are given off can pop the top (mine sometimes pops a corner in the fridge...it's more of an issue when it's out on the counter), so you may not want to use a screw on lid unless you leave it a little loose.

If you get into sourdough recipes, you will find that some have special starters using potatoes, grains, etc. I think it was Bernanrd Clayton's book that said, technically speaking, any dough that ferments or rises more that 4 hrs is a sourdough. Of course, those that go longer will have a more pronounced sourdough flavor.

The one I have kept going is a standard, all-purpose unbleached flour base. I add other grains in making the dough. I'd like to try some other forms, but haven't yet.

[AD]

I've had trouble with sourdough starters. I have tried it with tap water and spring, and I've mixed with metal and non-metal spoons, and it turned out exactly the same. I've often thrown it out and remade it since it didn't taste good, but after several tried, it never worked.

I might add that I store it in a plastic container with a pop-on lid, and I only put the lid on when I refrigerate it. When it sits out, I place a cloth towel over it.

I have gone nearly a month without feeding it before, which had no effect on it. If I don't use it in a week or two (and if I remember), I don't waste more flour on feeding it; I add a teaspoon of sugar and let it sit out overnight.

[Laura B]

Thanks to everyone for the information on starters. When I get around to starting one, I'm sure I will be back with more questions.

[Little Bit]

I thought I'd bump up this thread, in case anyone else has a sourdough starter neglected in the back of the fridge.

I discovered mine again the other day, after a month or two, and though things had settled, it looks and smells just like always.

I added a bit of extra flour, water and sugar, just to inspire it, but I'm not noticing lots of activity.

Does anyone know if this is a bad sign?
Should I let it come to room temperature or anything?

I just read one of Laurie Colwin's books (Home Cooking ?) and am feeling inspired to make bread again. Sourdough would be great, but this stuff isn't looking very lively.

[Beth]

I would stir it up, bring it to room temp and feed it (leaving it out for about 8 hours afterwards). As long as the liquid on top doesn't turn pinkish and you don't see obvious signs of spoilage, I'd give it a try. You should see air bubbles forming as it warms up. If you don't, the starter probably went too long. Good luck.

[Little Bit]

Thanks, Beth!

It looks fine, but I did put it back in the fridge after my most recent additions. I'll bring it out for a while and let it bubble.

Thanks for the advice. :)

[Zinnia]

In my "Cooking Alaskan" by Alaskans cookbook, Chapter 12 is-"All About Sourdough". The rules of thumb it covers are:
*Starting a Starter
*Setting the Sponge
*Replenishing the Sourdough Pot
*Why Bother?
*Signs of Sourdough Sickness
*Long-term Storage of Sourdough
*Cold Kitchen-Warm Hearth
*Using Other Yeasts and Leavenings
*Hints from Sourdoughs

Then there are chapters on:
*Sourdough Starters
*Sourdough Hotcakes & Waffles
*Sourdough Breads-Rolls-Doughnuts
*Sourdough "Quick" Breads
*Sourdough Cakes-Cookies-Other Desserts

Under "Sourdough Starters" it says that the starters were selected for variety. The first is from a sourdough iconoclast (popular species in this state) who says a 24-hour starter is plenty old enough for him. Others suggest fermenting the yeast three days or more before using it in a recipe. We still cherish belief that sourdoughs (and Sourdoughs) improve with age. To maintain your starter supply indefinitely, be sure to reserve 1 cup (240 mL) of it for your sourdough pot before starting to make bread or hot cakes or other products from the remaining sponge.

Here's the first recipe under Sourdough Starters:
*Sacrilegious Sourdough Starter
"They tell me that there are sourdough starters in Alaska that are over a hundred years old. Well, mine isn't over a week old. It's just too much bother to keep a starter going when it's so easy to start a batch w/ today's yeast. A friend of mine has the same feeling. She compares keeping a starter alive to keeping a bird. You're always feeding it, watering it, and cleaning up after it. I'll buy that!
"I keep my starter in the refrigerator in a gallon mayonnaise jar, but a nice neat crock w/ a cover would be fine too. Okay, lets start a batch of sourdough."

2 & 1/2 cups (600mL) warm water
1 package active dry yeast
3 cups (720 mL) all-purpose or whole wheat flour

Pour water into a large bowl, sprinkle the yeast on top of the water, and wait 5 min. Gradually add the flour, stirring in a little at a time. When all the flour is in, beat the mixture vigorously until it is smooth. Pour the batter into your jar or crock and cover lightly w/ aluminum foil. Set in a warm place for 24 hours. If the yeast is active, you'll have a good, bubbling starter. You can now claim it is a hundred years old and who's to question you?
Gordon R. Nelson, Palmer
Lowbush Moose


:o Sorry to be so long winded! :) Zinnia

[vbak]

Zinnia, I read your post on sourdough starter. After reading the recipe, I noticed that sugar was not listed as an ingredient. I thought that sugar was needed to start the fermentation process. I want to try this. Now here comes a "duh" question: Can I use this in the bread machine through the rise setting? And then take it out and bake in an oven? :confused: Thanks. Vicky

[Zinnia]

Hi Vicky,
Of the six sourdough starter recipes in the cookbook I have-"Cooking Alaskan", by Alaskans , the first one that I posted doesn't have sugar, four do, and the last one has honey & uses whole-wheat flour.....
The following site has recipes for 'starters in the breadmachine' and I hope it can be of help to you-
www.Armchair.com/recipe/breadmk2.html

:) Zinnia

[vbak]

Zinnia, Thank you for your speedy response and the web site. If I run into problems, I will get back to you. Vicky

[Beth]

vbak, the yeast in a sourdough starter get the food they need from the flour. Sugar is sometimes added to doughs in small amounts to give a boost. Salt is added to doughs to control (keep it slower) the growth rate and for flavor. I haven't found sugar to be necessary, but it may impact the flavor, either by having a residual sweetness or by changing the way the yeast feeds off sugar then the flour.

I wonder if someone started adding sugar either to get it to reproduce faster or to offset the tang of the sourdough somewhat. Perhaps Alaskan sourdoughs found sugar more necessary because of the cooler temperatures? I have never found it necessary (in N. CA or TX), and my starter is about 10 years old. Julia child and others say you get the best yeast flavors in doughs from a slower growth rate. I don't know if they same is true for starters.

I went and looked in one book I have and they have an ALaskan sourdough that uses a buttermilk yeast base and also adds a little sugar. I couldn't find anything else about sugar in starters, so maybe its the Alaskan style.

I did find this tip for starters that haven't been used for a while and develop a sharper than desired flavor (3 weeks or more): sift 1/2 tsp baking soda and 1/2 tsp cream of tartar in with the 1 cup of flour you use to feed the starter.

[vbak]

Zinnia, I fed my starter today. It is day 2, and I can't believe how bubbly and frothy it is! As soon as i mixed day 1, i saw little bubbles. When i have mixed water and flour for gravy, I noticed those bubbles, but I thought that they occured from mixing. Anyways, this is pretty amazing.{I don't get out much!!}:) Thanks. You may hear more from me, Vicky

[beccathebaker]

I love sourdough! Of all the things that I bake, I enjoy sourdough the most. It seems to me to be the most "alive" thing that I work with in the kitchen, I can never predict its behavior (or flavor for that matter!)
I store my starter in a tupperware container and have had it for over 1 year now. I make bread every sunday and then re-feed it with spring water and flour that is 90% white and 10% rye. I have never added sugar to my starter or my dough- I don't really think that it needs it. I keep my starter going on just the flour and water but I do add some salt to my dough. It never needs yeast- though I have added a pinch of yeast to the dough when experimenting before and found that it added a bit of volume and texture. I tend to like my bread dense and rich, so I like it better without the yeast.
I would love to share sourdough tips so if anyone has some-send them along. One thing that I have found helpful is to keep a "bread journal". Each time I make the sourdough at home, I write down the temp. outside and weather conditions and then I write exactly how I made it- if there were any special additions or extra steps that I took. This is fun because I try to vary the way that I make it and see how it affects the crust, crumb, flavor etc. I write down all of these things as well and try to put the "sour-ness" on a scale.
All for the love of baking!!

-Becca

[Curleytop]

I too, am a sourdough baker! Have had the same starter going for 5 years. I was in a discussion group on the Bread Board on Prodigy, and someone, (she recently passed away I hear) sent me a little of her Goldrush starter (dried) thru the snail mail.
I got it going, and it is still working!!! Made my sour dough loaves yesterday. I use the starter about once every other week. The way I use it is this way. A few hours ahead, on the evening before baking, I take my starter out of the fridge, and stir it well with a wooden spoon. NEVER USE METAL. I keep my starter in a glass jar with the rubber seal and a clamp.
After several hours, I remove I cup starter, place it in a large ceramic bowl, add I cup of flour and 2/3rd cup of water. Stir it well, cover with saran, and place it in the microwave. (Just to store overnite.) In the morning, I use I cup of the starter in my dough, and then put the rest of the starter in my starter pot.
If I don't use the starter for several weeks, then I remove 1 cup one the starter, and replenish it with 1 cup flour and 1 cup water. Stir it well, leave it out on the counter until I see that the starter has become active, then refrigerate.
FYI I make my dough in the breadmachine, dough method, then
take it out and shape it etc. I BAKE MY LOAVES IN CLAY BAKERS
FOR A CRUSTY LOAF!:p

[vbak]

Don't know where my first reply is lurking! Oh, well. Thanks for all the tips on sourdough. Vicky

[Little Bit]

I just wanted to thank everyone too! I made bread the other day, and it turned out fine. I didn't use an actual 'sourdough bread' recipe, just substituted some of my starter for some of the flour and liquid and yeast, in Laurie Colwin's For One Loaf recipe from her book Home Cooking and it worked fine.

I did let my dough rise in the icebox overnight, which might have helped things too.

Thanks again.

[Zinnia]

Vicky, I am so glad you are having such good luck w/ your starter-that is awesome :)!
TY to everyone who posted on here, and gave their versions & advice, btw! I learned alot, and will be trying them out too. :) Zinnia

[Svadhisthana]

A wonderful source for breads using a starter is Nancy Silversteins "Breads From the La Brea Bakery". She gives you a white starter recipe (takes fourteen days) that uses no commercial yeast, which can add an undesired flavor. The book is well Written and detailed.

[Little Bit]

Just thought I'd bump this one up, if anyone else needs a reminder to check on their sourdough starter.
I found my bowl of dead sourdough starter in the back of the fridge where I'd abandoned it before I went out of town six or eight weeks ago. :(

Waah! I'd been nursing that one since last Christmas.

[BethR]

I ordered San Francisco starter culture from Sourdoughs International (www.sourdo.com) along with a book about making sourdough bread that is intended as a companion to the starter (which comes only with rudimentary instructions on how to activate it). I haven't activated it yet -- it calls for a "proofing box" that DH and I have to construct to keep the temp at 85-90 degrees for a few days! I'm not sure it's worth all the effort, but I'll let everyone know in a week or so! :)
Beth

[GayeC]

I purchased a sourdough starter from King Arthur several years ago. I have enjoyed using it, although I have to say I don't use it enough. Which means that it sits in my refrig (in a glass jar) for months at a time. But it never goes bad, so it is always there and ready to go when I am. My point is that it doesn't seem to be a terribly delicate thing that you have to "baby" and murture a lot. Just let it warm up when you want to use it, take a cup out, and stir in a cup of water (not chlorinated) and flour to replace what you are using.

[LaraW]

I just wanted to add that you can purchase sourdough starter from Whole Foods in the bakery section, if you have one near you and you don't want to order through a catalog.

Lara

[funnybone]

Originally posted by Beth

My one tip for getting a starter going would be to use boiled or bottled water, possibly filtered or water that has been able to sit and let any chlorine disapate for at least 24 hrs. The chlorine may overpower the yeast in the starter at the beginning. I have not noticed a problem with tap water in feeding and keeping the starter.


I have never made a starter, but I did see a baker on "Cooking Live" and he said to use Spring water, so there must be something with the water that works. He had a recipe for some breads and a starter, let's see if I can find the link:

Here it is:

http://www.foodtv.com/foodtv/episode/0,6283,CL9623,00.html

[Beth]

Originally posted by BethR
I haven't activated it yet -- it calls for a "proofing box" that DH and I have to construct to keep the temp at 85-90 degrees for a few days! I'm not sure it's worth all the effort, but I'll let everyone know in a week or so! :)
Beth

Beth, do you have a microwave oven? I wouldn't build a box, I'd use the microwave with the door ajar so that the oven warms up -- or even a regular oven. Take it out and wrap a towel around it when you're using the oven and put it back after the oven's cooled off. Keep it simple.

[vbak]

I want to try sourdough again. The last time I tried this the starter just bubbled away. However, when it was time to proof the starter, it just remained separated; liquid on top and batter on the bottom after I added more flour and liquid. It sat out for 12 hours. Needless to say, the bread made a nice doorstop!!:( Now, another amateur question: What type of pan do you bake this in? My mom never made sourdough so I don't even have a clue as to how it should look ,smell, or feel. Vicky

[BethR]

Originally posted by Beth


Beth, do you have a microwave oven? I wouldn't build a box, I'd use the microwave with the door ajar so that the oven warms up -- or even a regular oven. Take it out and wrap a towel around it when you're using the oven and put it back after the oven's cooled off. Keep it simple.

I've decided not to build the box after all. I checked the electrical store today, trying to come up with a way to cobble together a socket, cord, dimmer switch and plug. I was told dimmer switches on cords are no longer available here in Australia -- it's no longer within code. The guy suggested calling an electrician! So I'll try something else. Question on your suggestion: you say "so that the (microwave) oven warms up"... I'm confused; I thought a microwave doesn't actually heat up to cook food. I thought of using a regular oven, but mine can't be set for a temperature that low. I guess I could turn the flame on for a minute at a time every few hours to try to keep it between 85-90 degrees. A bit of a pain, but the instructions say the temp is only critical for 24 hours. Any other ideas?

[Anne]

Hi Beth. If you have a cooler or other type of insulated box you might try putting very hot water in a couple of gallon jars into the cooler and put the starter in a crock or jar in between them. This is similar to how I do yoghurt and it keeps a supprising even temperature for 12 hours or so. If the top of your hot-water heater is not insulated that might be a warm spot to try too. Good luck. Mine starter seems to work great even when temperatures are 60 to 70 degrees, it just takes a little longer.

[Beth]

Sorry, let me back up and clarify. When I have the door ajar, there is a lightbulb that comes on, but the microwave will not operate to cook with the door open. You only want the light bulb. A regular oven may do the same (but is may get too warm if you leave the light on and the door closed), and a gas oven that have a pilot light will work. So will the oven, a cooler or something else with a bowl of warm water. Look around your house and I'm sure you'll find you already have something that will work. Good luck, and have fun.

[BethR]

Thanks for the ideas Anne and Beth! I think this can work! My micro doesn't have a interior light, and testing my oven light showed it doesn't get the oven quite warm enough. I did find out though, that my oven has stayed in the temp range I need for several hours after heating it for about a minute. Next, I'm going to pop my handy thermometer into a cooler with some bottles of hot water and see how it does. The hot water heater option won't work -- my water heater is on the roof! (solar powered) Thanks again! I'll let you know how it turns out.

Beth

[mame]

I tried the sourdough starter Zinnia posted from King Arthur. I am not sure if it is just me--but I left it for the 24 hours lightly covered with the aluminum foil as directed and when I checked on it--the top was BLACK!!!! With gray streaks throughout---YUCK!!!! Tossed the whole thing out--container included :) Just too gross. I think I am going to look at whole foods for some starter--but if I get brave and try this again--I think maybe the aluminum foil was the culprit. I would warn others against this problem.

[Beth]

They tell you not to use metal with sourdough since the sourdough can react with metal. I'm not sure that would have happened in your case since it probably didn't sour first. Use plastic wrap to let light in and discourage mold. Also make sure you use boiled and cooled water or distilled water to begin a starter since chlorine can kill off the yeast. My first one spoiled, and I now have one that's been going ten years. Try again. It's not a big investment and fun to have one you get going.

[yomomma]

Just curious if anyone here has used KA starter AND Nancy Silverton's 14 day starter. Is there a noticable difference in flavor? Nancy's way sure seems burdensom with the three feedings per day. Are the results worth the effort? Does KA's have yeast in it?

[Beth]

They would all have yeast -- just natural vs commercially prepared. I haven't tried either, but I would like to try my hand at the all natural one some day. Make sure you use a flitered or at least a boiled and cooled water so you don't have chlorine to kill the starter. This is especially important when you are starting one.

As she explains, all sourdoughs will eventually take on the flavor of the natural yeasts in their locale. I didn't notice a difference in my starter for the first couple of years I was in TX, but I'm afraid it is no longer the same as what I brought from CA. Not bad, just different. So you may see a difference at first, but if you keep the started going, over time, I suspect they will move toward the same point.

[swquilts]

What is the consistency of a starter that's ready to use? I made mine on Sunday using water, flour and yeast. It seems like its ready, but it appears runny to me, like a thick buttermilk. Since I've never made it before I'm curious. I'm going to try it out tonight with some biscuits.

[Beth]

How'd the biscuits turn out?

I keep my starter about like a thick pancake batter, but I have known people to keep them runnier or as a hunk of dough. I think you can keep it at any consistency, but you may need to adjust your recipes. It may also have an impact on how long it will keep between uses and feedings.

[swquilts]

Beth-I went to make them and the recipe I have (from a book I got at the secondhand book store written in 1971! :eek: ) says to take 1/2 cup of starter, mix with 1 cup flour and 3/4 water to make an "overnight" starter. Soooo....I did that, it's sitting and then I mixed all of the dry ingredients together and I'll do them in the morning....ack...why did I volunteer for this on a weekday?? :rolleyes: I'll report in tomorrow!

[swquilts]

They turned out great!! My FIRST sourdough baking experience! I'm making these biscuits to take to work for a meeting this morning. I let DH try one and he said "you can't take these, you'd be embarassed, just put them all in my lunchbox" ;) Asked me why he couldn't have anymore, I explained that it didn't yield many and I'd make some for him on Sunday.

Susan No Longer A Sourdough Virgin.....

PS: Bread is next!

[Curleytop]

Thi is the way I handle my sourdough! I take out the container from the fridge. All the liquid stuff is on the top. With a WOODEN spoon, stir it up, so that there is no more clear stuff on the top. Leave it out on the counter, (cover it again). I use a glass jar with a rubber gasket and a clamp. Leave it a couple of hours. (I do this in the late afternoon). After dinner, I measure 1 cup of the starter, put it in a large ceramic bowl (no metal for starter eithe bowl or utensils!!!) add. 3/4 cup cool water, and 1 cup of flour. Stir it up, cover with saran, put on the counter or(I put it in the micro overnite). In the morning, stir it up in the bowl, use 1 cup of the starter for your recipe, add the remainder to your stash in the jar. Stir it up, close the lid, put it back in the fridge for next time.
If you don't use it within a few weeks, remove it from the fridge,
DISCARD 1 cup of the starter, feed the starter in the jar with 1 cup of flour and 1 cup of water, stir, let it start eating while sitting on the counter, then refrigerate. I have Goldrush starter and I have had it since at least 1995! Of course, I took some of it years ago, let it dry on a saucer, when it had tried, pulverized it with mortar and pestal, put in a small plastic bag, and put it in the freezer. Never had to reconstitute it so far.

[CompassRose]

Bumping this thread, just because... I refound this nifty link (http://www.kyleskitchen.net/wild_yeast_safari.htm) I wanted to post before (went all combing through the 'Net looking for it!)

Anyway, rather funny chronicle, with photos, of one man's comparative foray into sourdough starters

[KyleW]

I think that guy is nuts!

[CompassRose]

Yeah....:D you right!

[Humblechef]

I worked in a bakery and was told by the owner/head baker that if your started has an orange tinge to the color it is spoiled. If it is grey its OK. Also as point, no matter whether you buy a starter from S.F. or start your own eventually it will take on a local flavor because started uses spores that are in the surrounding air. S.F. started has a unique flavor because of where its from not the ingredients.

[Beth]

Originally posted by swquilts
They turned out great!! My FIRST sourdough baking experience! Susan No Longer A Sourdough Virgin.....

Susan, I just saw this post. Glad they turned out so good. I have used some recipes that basically expand the starter like that. Once, in a hurry and with a lot of starter, I skipped that step and just used a lot of starter. :D I don't think sourdough is all that exacting. Perhaps the most ultimate loaf is, but there are an awful lot of really good loaves along the way.

[RunnerKim]

Originally posted by swquilts
Beth-I went to make them and the recipe I have (from a book I got at the secondhand book store written in 1971! :eek: ) says to take 1/2 cup of starter, mix with 1 cup flour and 3/4 water to make an "overnight" starter.

Susan - can you post the rest of this recipe? I'm looking for a good sourdough biscuit recipe!

Thanks,
Kim

[Gracie]

Originally posted by Curleytop
Thi is the way I handle my sourdough! I take out the container from the fridge. All the liquid stuff is on the top. With a WOODEN spoon, stir it up, so that there is no more clear stuff on the top. Leave it out on the counter, (cover it again). I use a glass jar with a rubber gasket and a clamp. Leave it a couple of hours. (I do this in the late afternoon). After dinner, I measure 1 cup of the starter, put it in a large ceramic bowl (no metal for starter eithe bowl or utensils!!!) add. 3/4 cup cool water, and 1 cup of flour. Stir it up, cover with saran, put on the counter or(I put it in the micro overnite). In the morning, stir it up in the bowl, use 1 cup of the starter for your recipe, add the remainder to your stash in the jar. Stir it up, close the lid, put it back in the fridge for next time.


Pardon my denseness, but I really want to make sure I got this right. When you remove a cup of starter from your warmed up "stash", you then feed the cup of starter you removed, let it sit overnight then use one cup of the fed starter for your recipe and then put the rest back in your "stash" and in the fridge for the next time?

Did I get that right?

So that means that you have to feed your starter 12 hours prior to every time that you use it??

Thanks - one of these days I'm going to do this! Right now I'm still a sourdough virgin!

Loren

[KyleW]

I think this is what she does. Take the stored starter from the fridge. Take a cup of it and pitch the rest. Feed the cup of starter. Take what you need for your bread. Put the remainder back in the fridge.

[Gracie]

Originally posted by KyleW
Take a cup of it and pitch the rest.

Ohhh - PITCH the rest! That's the part I was trying to make sure of!

Thanks!

Loren

[swquilts]

Kim, I'll post it tonight when I get home from work! :)

[yomomma]

KyleW, If you are the nutsy guy... I see that you've (actually Peter) made reference to diastatic malt. I've been using it (powder) for bagel & pretzel making - in the dough & the boiling water. It's been kinda hit & miss, not really knowing how much to add. KA says 1/2-1 tsp per 3 cups of flour (in their catalog), but in Peter's starter it said 1 TBS for one cup of flour & then 1/2 tsp more, day two & three. Does it make a difference in flavor or just provide the yeasties w/ food? More so than the honey? Can the syrup and powder be used interchangeably measure for measure? Is one better than the other (syrup vs powder)? Is the diastatic malt cheaper @ the beer supply than KA? Details! Can you tell I'm a detail person?

[KyleW]

Yo - I think the malt in the starter formula is there more for food than flavor. It gives the newly corraled yeasties something to munch on while building their strength. In his new book, The Bread Baker's Apprentice, he does not use it. In fact he uses just rye flour, bread flour and water. As to KA prices, I gotta think malt is malt, as long as it is diastatic. I don't know why, but I use the syrup for bagels and used the powder for the starter. This may be a question for Bookbag @ www.bakingcircle.com.

Kyle

[yomomma]

Yes, I bet bookbag would know - she knows everything! I asked it once over there (KA), but I guess she missed my request.

[swquilts]

RunnerKim....as promised:

Old-Fashioned Sourdough Biscuits

Overnight Starter:
1/2 c sourdough starter
3/4 c warm water (105F, 40C)
1 cup all purpose flour

In a medium bowl, combine starter, flour and water. Set in a warm place overnight or for 24 hours.

Ingredients:

Overnight starter (Make this the night before!)
1/4 c vegetable oil or bacon grease
1 c all purpose flour
1 tsp baking powder
1/4 tsp baking soda
1 tsp salt
1 TB sugar
1 tsp cornmeal (optional)

Prepare Overnight Starter the night before according to the directions above. Next morning or evening, remove 1/2 c of overnight starter. Place in a glass or plastic container or add to your base starter. Grease a large baking sheet. Preheat oven to 250 degrees.

Stir oil or grease into Overnight Starter; set aside. In a small bowl stir flour, baking powder, baking soda, salt and sugar. Stir into sourdough mixture. Turn onto generously floured surface. Knead about 30 seconds. With floured hands pat dough out to 1/2 inch thick. Dip a 2 to 2.5" biscuit cutter (or whatever you have handy) into flour then cut out biscuits. Arrange biscuits on prepared baking sheet. Sprinkle tops with 1 tsp of cornmeal if desired. (I didn't). Bake in preheated oven 10 minutes. RAISE oven heat to 400 deg. Bake biscuits 12 to 15 min longer or until lightly browned. Remove from sheet. Serve HOT! :) Makes 12 to 15 biscuits.

(Thus refutes the theory of waiting for your bread to cool! Teehee):eek:

Enjoy!!!

[dcornelius]

Can some one suggest a relativly low maintnance starter that I could use? I could feed early am and late pm as I work twelve hour shifts. I really would like to try a starter but am affraid that with my schedule I might not be successful.

[KyleW]

Get a hold of a copy of The Bread Baker's Apprentice. In it, Peter Reinhart gives a 5 day, feed once a day starter formula.

[Beth]

Diane, other than Nancy Silverton's 3x day recipe, most of the starters I have seen use feedings once a day or less. IMO, her approach would be highly wastful for most home bakers -- it's really only practical for the obsessed person with lots of people to feed or a commercial appraoch. I want to try a natural starter like the one she does -- but Peter Reinhart's is more practical (using raisin water as opposed to finding organic grapes -- especially this time of year).

Once you get it going, you will only feed it as you use it or occassionally to maintain it. Of course, the more you use it, the better it is likely to be. Sourdough is really not hard to keep or use, but it is an inexact science, so be prepared for varying flour amoounts, rise times and such. Watch the bread -- not the measuring cup or timer.

[RunnerKim]

Thanks Susan - I look forward to giving the biscuits a try.

Kim

[KyleW]

Reinhart used raisin water in his Crust & Crumb starter formula. In the new BBA formula he uses only rye flour, bread flour and water. It's as straight forward a formula as I have seen. It works too!

[Beth]

I saw your pictures of that and it looks very dark. Have you baked with it yet? It doesn't strike me as what I'd want to make French bread or my occassional Sunday waffles with.

[Leisa M]

How did I miss this thread!!

[KyleW]

Originally posted by Beth
I saw your pictures of that and it looks very dark. Have you baked with it yet? It doesn't strike me as what I'd want to make French bread or my occassional Sunday waffles with.

My pictures? Of what?

[cherylopal]

well good news! :) my friend gave me some of my twin back and a loaf of bread made from the starter! i'm so happy to have a second chance with the starter that i started!

cheryl

[KyleW]

Originally posted by yomomma
KyleW, If you are the nutsy guy... I see that you've (actually Peter) made reference to diastatic malt. I've been using it (powder) for bagel & pretzel making - in the dough & the boiling water. It's been kinda hit & miss, not really knowing how much to add. KA says 1/2-1 tsp per 3 cups of flour (in their catalog), but in Peter's starter it said 1 TBS for one cup of flour & then 1/2 tsp more, day two & three. Does it make a difference in flavor or just provide the yeasties w/ food? More so than the honey? Can the syrup and powder be used interchangeably measure for measure? Is one better than the other (syrup vs powder)? Is the diastatic malt cheaper @ the beer supply than KA? Details! Can you tell I'm a detail person?

Here's what the Oracle had to sya on the topic :-)

KyleW - I almost missed this post. For only a few words, you sure do ask a lot of a gal...

I'll answer the last question first. The cheapest (something I'm well schooled in) source of diastatic malt. Purchase one cup of soft wheat or unhulled barley berries (unhulled barley is the only kind that will sprout). Follow any common instructions for sprouting grain. When the sprout is the length of the grain (about 2 days), they are ready to dry. Dry in a very low oven/convection oven or a dehydrator - about 8 hours at about 120 degrees F. Not to exceed 130 degrees F. or you destroy the enzymes and defeat your whole purpose. When completely dry, grind in a coffee grinder, flour mill, or a blender. Store in a tightly closed plastic bag in a glass jar in the freezer. Will last indefinately (from some sources.) This will make enough diastatic malt for about 150 loaves of bread.

Commercial malt powders are usually made with barley and that's what is used by commercial bakers.

Diastatic malt contains the enzymes which help break starch down into sugar. The extra sugar feeds the yeast in the dough - which helps the bread to rise - and gives the bread a browner crust. A good addition for crusty breads.

Diastatic malt does all of sugar's jobs and has none of the shortcomings. It's rich in enzymes and vitamins, so when malt is added to dough it gets a nutritional boost, not like the empty calories and non-nutritive - sugar.

Adding too much malt can cause problems. Too much and you have bread that will be "overproofed" and you might have a nice gummy, sticky dough and when baked will have an alcohol smell and a dense crust.

Malt extract is used the same as diastatic malt powder. Malt syrup is a sweetener. Replace a T. of sugar or sweetener in a bread recipe with 1/2 t. of diastatic malt powder, OR 2 T. of malt extract. Add malt extract to the warm water if proofing bakers' yeast.

Adding barley malt, malt syrup, or malted flour ALL help break down big molecules of starch into simple sugars that yeast can use. For maximum sweetness add a tablespoon of baking malt syrup... (from: CookWise).

Non-diastatic malt is primarily used to add flavor and color. Diastatic malt will do the same as non-diastic plus supplies enzymes. Non-diastatic malt syrup is the form generally used in hearth breads (from: http://techserv.aibonline.org/faqs/ingredients.html)

Hope some of that helps... ~Bookbag

[yomomma]

WOW! Ask and ye shall receive! I think I have a better understanding now. Thanx Kyle for rounding up this info. Man, bookbag is the Queen of Knowledge!

[swquilts]

I began my sourdough starter from BBA using the infamous rye flour and water. I put it into a 1 qt Tupperware straight sided pitcher. MINE ROSE?? The book said there would be little to no rise, mine was about 3/4" above the tape! So tonight I added the Day 2 stuff, put it back in the Tupperware and remarked the tape. Very wierd! The sage continues.......

Should I have not used plastic??

[Beth]

I haven't made that starter, but by comparison, my starter can bubble and rise up several inches after I feed it. It did rise, so it sounds like you have good activity going. I think your plastic is fine. JMHO

[KyleW]

Originally posted by swquilts
The book said there would be little to no rise, mine was about 3/4" above the tape!

A little rise isn't a bad thing. THe book describes what happens in Peter's environment using Peter's flour. Things will vary in different environments using different flours. Here is what my BBA Barm (http://www.kyleskitchen.net/flour_water.htm) looked like at various stages.

I use plastic containers as well. As you can see, I think you will outgrow you 1 QT. fairly soon :)

[swquilts]

Thanks Beth and Kyle! Kyle, I wonder if I should add more flour like you did? Mine seems a tad runnier than it should be. I'll see tonight when I add Day 3. I think I'll give the part I'm supposed to toss to a friend and see how she does with it.

[KyleW]

Originally posted by swquilts
I wonder if I should add more flour like you did? Mine seems a tad runnier than it should be.

The key is the first day. The seed needs to be very, very stiff, almost too stiff to knead. Different flours absorb water at different rates. The amounts given in the book are what it took him to get it to that stage.

[swquilts]

Well crud...I used a dark rye flour that I got from a local health food store. It was NOT stiff at all, more like the biga used in the ciabatta bread. Should I pitch it and start over? I followed his measurements exactly.

[KyleW]

I don't know that I would pitch it. If it's growing after you feed it you should be OK. I would stiffent it up a bit. I would add 50% more flour than is called for at the next feeding.

[swquilts]

OK, I'll continue on. I'll add more tonight. This is also the day that you divide in half. I'm going to give a friend some along with the directions. It will be interesting to see what happens next!

[KyleW]

Originally posted by swquilts
I'm going to give a friend some along with the directions.

:)

[swquilts]

Friend didn't want part of Helga ("its" name) so I pitched half as instructed. I did add much more flour to make it thicker. The saga continues.....;)