Need input to get ready for a group discussion....

[Kathy B]

Sunday I am leading a discussion of a topic in a book I read, "Suing for Peace" by James P. Kimmel Jr, J.D. I would be interested if anyone here has any thoughts on the topic.... (hopefully it will give me some idea what kind of discussion/comments/questions to expect Sunday.)

The author's basic idea (he happens to be a lawyer) is that as long as we pursue justice, we will never have peace. His examples show that when we try to get justice for a wrong that has been done to us, it never results in peace and happiness, but only escalates the situation and our feelings of being wronged. He promotes the idea of "Nonjustice" which is basically not responding when we are wronged. (Nonjustice does not require forgiveness which for many people would be too much of a stretch).

Here is a link to his website

Nonjustice (http://www.nonjustice.org/nonjustice.html)

Comments welcome!

[Meganator]

Hmmmm...it sounds like a great opportunity for all the people who are doing the wrongs upon us to continue to do so, or to escalate their wrongs, because there would be no fear of punishment. I'm not sure that I agree that by sitting there and letting someone wrong me that I will then be peaceful and happy.

[jmarie]

How about if someone kidnaps your young nephew and tortures him in the most unbelievable ways until his death....or you are 10 years old, playing hopscotch in front of your house and someone kidnaps you and rapes you repeatedly in all manners of fashion for hours and hours, until you just want to die...but you get away and run naked from house to house until a kind spirit looks outside and gets you into the house and calls 911.

"Nonjustice" which is basically not responding when we are wronged.

I know my examples are harsh, but both of these instances happened, one in my family and one in my uncle's ex-wife's family, when she was still a part of our family.

I have to admit, I haven't read the book....but are these the kinds of wrongs that you speak of ....or are you talking about someone speaking harshly to you when you don't deserve it?

Joyce

[Kathy B]

Thanks for your replies.

....but are these the kinds of wrongs that you speak of ....or are you talking about someone speaking harshly to you when you don't deserve it?


I am sorry to hear these are actual events, Joyce! :(

He actually is addressing either. His idea is that although such a wrong is a terrible thing, the act of pursuing justice will not bring peace. In fact, it takes a great deal of energy and reliving of the painful ordeal itself to pursue justice, and even if a perpetrator is "led away in chains", that does not heal us or bring us happiness and peace.

Hmmmm...it sounds like a great opportunity for all the people who are doing the wrongs upon us to continue to do so, or to escalate their wrongs, because there would be no fear of punishment. I'm not sure that I agree that by sitting there and letting someone wrong me that I will then be peaceful and happy.

This was my reaction, too! One thing I will point out is that there is a difference between "letting someone wrong me" and pursuing justice if they HAVE wronged me.

He writes "The fundamental teaching of nonjustice is that we should refrain from doing that which causes our own suffering. If inaction in the face of imminent harm will cause our suffering, then we should act. Conversely, if action in the face of imminent wrongdoing will cause our suffering, then we should refrain from action. Thus, nonjustice does not teach that we must become victims of injustice."

Some of his ideas seem idealistic to me, but I must say he has a very interesting way of looking at things, and quite a few good examples to make his points. It has really given me a lot to think about. That is why I think it will be a great topic for our group to discuss! I am a little anxious though, because I am sure it will be hard for me to do justice (no pun intended) to his ideas in the 45 minutes we meet.

[annette1rn]

Just in reading your basic premise of the book makes my skin crawl. I relate it to turning the other cheek or the being a doormat concept. It never really works out well. Such would be my reply to the theory of nonjustice....would peace be achieved by seeking out nonjustice? Probably not....but in seeking justice aren't we able to reach a sense of closure? Just a thought...

I would be interested in hearing more about your group discussion. Good luck!

[jmarie]

In fact, it takes a great deal of energy and reliving of the painful ordeal itself to pursue justice, and even if a perpetrator is "led away in chains", that does not heal us or bring us happiness and peace.

I was young and only remember the incredible sadness of all of the gorwn-ups when my ex-aunt's nephew was taken from this life.

But our niece's nightmare was several years back. The fact that her perpetrator was led away in chains didn't heal her, for sure......but I think she finds comfort that it will be a long time till he can hurt her again. And that is what she fears, the most, is that he will come back. Even as an adult, she fears this. Maybe this is too emotional a subject for me to participate in....so, I will leave it at this....just suffice it to say. If you have never experienced anything like this, you don't want to. Her mother went through hell while she was missing and then went to the hospital to a little girl who only stared into space....Her mother is still in agony about it, and the little girl, now a young lady has led such a troubled life.

I wonder what the writer of the book would have us to do. Just allow the man to remain free to do this to another child, as simplistic an idea as this is?

[tbb113]

I think if you can remove the criminal proceedings from this discussion, I can see how it could work. Obviously, if I commit a crime, I should expect to be punished for the act. But...I can see his point (I skimmed the website) for a civil case (especially pain/suffering). Seldom do I see how receiving a monetary award helps a person achieve peace or closure from an accident.

Divorce is another area where I can see this. I had a casual friend whose divorced cost her so much emotionally and financially. She just had to sell her house to pay legal fees. Where is the peace in this? It would seem to me at some point it is worth just settling the case as opposed to being proved right.

My ex owes me back child support. It isn't worth the time and aggravation to take him to court. I'm getting much more peace witht the idea that he eventually will pay me back (I figure he can keep paying after the boys are 18) then having to seek my justice now.

[Kathy B]

I wonder what the writer of the book would have us to do. Just allow the man to remain free to do this to another child, as simplistic an idea as this is?
Actually, he does address this type of thing, and in his vision of the court system, people with a high likelihood of committing another crime would remain incarcerated. I appreciate your comments, Joyce. I am sorry this has brought up difficult memories for you!

I think if you can remove the criminal proceedings from this discussion, I can see how it could work.
That is a very helpful suggestion! As I said above, he does have a vision of using his ideas for criminal proceedings, but to me they are very idealistic as it would pretty much require buy-in from the entire judicial system at the minimum. I think it would be a good idea to focus more on the civil and personal situations for the purpses of class discussion. Thanks!

....would peace be achieved by seeking out nonjustice? Probably not....but in seeking justice aren't we able to reach a sense of closure? Just a thought...


The author believes peace CAN be acheived by practicing nonjustice, but in many situations seeking justice does not bring closure. It only escalates the situation as each side is determined to be the winner. Tyra gave some good real life examples, and there are many others in the book.

Good luck!
Thanks! :) (I am really glad for everyone's input! I know I will have a wide variety of responses from the group....there are even two lawyers in the bunch! :D )