Looking for a punishment to fit the crime

[badunnin]

A few weeks ago, during an after-school German Club meeting, one of my kids picked up my cell phone and started going through it. She called out to me "Hey Frau, who is Smith?" My head whipped around - Smith is the boy, who also teaches in the district. "Pardon?" "Who is Smith? I have your cell phone and ...." "What are you doing with my cell phone?" Just going through my dialed and received calls she said. Umm, no you don't. I gave her an earful about respecting property, privacy, etc etc. Thank goodness she didn't get to text messages - I don't think she did anyways. Good Gordie I hope not.... *shudder*

Yesterday I walked into my classroom (I had been down the hall) and she was sitting at my desk, feet up, the bag of goldfish crackers that I snack on in her lap, eating them. I was stunned, and again, gave her an earful. But I know she needs more.

After talking to our counselling staff, I found that both of these are suspendable offenses. She could get 2 days. She has a clean record - high GPA, very bright, great state test scores, no red flags of any kind. I told the counsellor that I'd feel bad about a suspension, that good kids don't get suspended. She told me that good kids don't go through a staff member's cell phone and desk....

So, what do you think? Obviously she has balls the size of Texas and is a bit too comfortable around me. I do think she needs to be punished, something beyond writing a letter to me explaining why it was wrong etc etc - that seems a bit like a time out chair to me. Any ideas?

[wallycat]

YIKES!
Sometimes threats and earfuls aren't enough.
Hit her where it hurts...can you tell her that her grades will reflect her lack of respect type attitude towards adults/authority figures??
If she is a good student and prides herself in that, she may just be bored and looking for attention. Worrying about her grades...well...that might do it.

I preface this with NOT having kids nor ever teaching :eek: (but I was neurotic about my grades :D ).

[Robyncz]

You know what? This sounds like a smart kid who knows she can get away with whatever she wants BECAUSE she has a clean record and gets good grades. And she could get herself in big trouble if she's not called to task. I think you need to scare the crap out of her. Could you talk to your principal (or whoever your campus enforcer is) about it? I think she should get called to the office and be forced to explain herself. And the enforcer should work with her to determine a punishment. She has already proven that she doesn't take you seriously as an authority figure (which isn't meant to criticize YOU at all). I think big guns are in order.

By the way, I was that kid (to a degree) and I crossed the line once when I was in 8th grade. I was called to the principal's office in the middle of an unrelated class, and I had to explain myself. It made quite an impression on me, and helped me realize that I wasn't untouchable just because I was an overachiever. . .

[badunnin]

YIKES!
Sometimes threats and earfuls aren't enough.
Hit her where it hurts...can you tell her that her grades will reflect her lack of respect type attitude towards adults/authority figures??
If she is a good student and prides herself in that, she may just be bored and looking for attention. Worrying about her grades...well...that might do it.

I preface this with NOT having kids nor ever teaching :eek: (but I was neurotic about my grades :D ).

That would have to be an empty threat though - if push came to shove, I couldn't actually hurt her grade. We can't punish a kid academically for a behaviour issue, unless it's cheating. And that is a gray area with the district actually....

[Cookin4Love]

As a mother of one of those great kids, I say let her have it. My daughter once did something stupid that could have been dangerous. Because of her good grades and clean record, nothing happened to her at school. I was furious.

As an administrator, I say let her have it. I make lots of calls home to parents whose kids have never been in trouble. I talk a great deal about how consequences now, even though they seem extremely severe, are nothing compared to the consequences the rest of the world will deal out if the behavior continues into adulthood. I stress to the kid and the parents that we care enough to do the difficult thing and make them accountable.

This kid was clearly out of line. What would you do if she stole money from your wallet? I wouldn't put it past her. The flagrant way in which she is behaving leads me to believe that she is daring/begging someone to set some limits for her. I think you can address the situation with caring and respect, and at the same time be absolutely unwavering in your demand that she respect your authority, space, and personal property.

Let us know what you decide.

[momqat]

After talking to our counselling staff, I found that both of these are suspendable offenses. She could get 2 days. She has a clean record - high GPA, very bright, great state test scores, no red flags of any kind. I told the counsellor that I'd feel bad about a suspension, that good kids don't get suspended. She told me that good kids don't go through a staff member's cell phone and desk....

Well, this appears to be a very BIG red flag. She needs to know that she's had 2 strikes -- the 3rd one will get her suspended. And if she DOES test you, you have to follow through, and not feel bad about it.

And the counselor is right, good kids don't go through a staff member's cell phone and desk....

[badunnin]

Thanks. I think I'm going to talk to her in the morning (she is coming in before school, an inconvenience for her, as recommended by the counselor) and I'm going to let her know that I'm handing it up to administration. And I'm going to let admin know that I'd like to see more than a lecture as punishment.

[cookieee]

Have you or someone else called her parents? Don't you think they should know what happened? Maybe they can throw some insight into the situation, or at least recommend some type of punishment.

[badunnin]

Have you or someone else called her parents? Don't you think they should know what happened? Maybe they can throw some insight into the situation, or at least recommend some type of punishment.

I've had her for 3 years, never met the 'rents, can't get ahold of them. Which provides some light in and of itself....

[cookieee]

This in and of itself is real scary. God forbid something happened to their daughter, what is the school suppose to do then if they can't reach her parents. Your right, maybe there is something here for the school to investigate

[Cookin4Love]

I've had her for 3 years, never met the 'rents, can't get ahold of them. Which provides some light in and of itself....

My favorite line in those cases is, "Well, if I can't reach your parents, you're going to have to stay here until they get home, and I'll have the police officer take you home and talk to them." Amazing how often a direct-dial number suddenly pops into the kid's mind! I know that as a teacher you can't do that, but maybe an administrator could help out. ;)

[little_bopeep]

If she has a cell phone, I'd be sorely tempted to take it and go through it in front of the class, asking her about her friends.

[badunnin]

If she has a cell phone, I'd be sorely tempted to take it and go through it in front of the class, asking her about her friends.

I've also thought about going through her backpack/purse, but that's not really age appropriate for me at 31.....

[little_bopeep]

Yeeaaahh, I know....but it was the first thing I thought of. :D

[daisylover]

As a teacher, I'd say that her behavior, based upon the way you've described it, indicates that she doesn't necessarily view you as a traditional authority figure. I think that happens easily when we've known students through classes and clubs for several years. You've known her for three years, and she obviously feels comfortable with you. I think you should let her have it, so to speak. But I think it needs to be clear that this is a result of her inappropriate actions so that she becomes less tempted to blame you for any change in her school reputation. She needs to know that it's her actions that are inappropriate but that you still like her. I'd say that sitting at your desk, eating your snacks, with her feet on your desk shows that somewhere along the line she has come to consider you more of a "friend" than a teacher. Perhaps that is something you could discuss with her as well. There's nothing wrong with teenagers trusting us, looking up to us, or turning to us for help. But there is a line there, and I think they look to us to enforce that line. I think her behavior indicates something is up, so hopefully she will realize that you are looking out for her.

[Cookin4Love]

I've also thought about going through her backpack/purse, but that's not really age appropriate for me at 31.....

Plus, it probably violates district policy or your state laws (unless, of course, you have reasonable suspicion). In our state, only admin can do a search, and then only with reasonable suspicion. Doggone restrictions! They take the fun out of teaching. :D

[sneezles]

Where was your cell phone that she had access to it? If it was out in the open then shame on you, if she went through your stuff then shame on her and she should be punished for that crime/invasion of praivacy. As for the snack issue, she obviously thinks you're not an authority figure...

[badunnin]

Where was your cell phone that she had access to it? If it was out in the open then shame on you, if she went through your stuff then shame on her and she should be punished for that crime/invasion of praivacy. As for the snack issue, she obviously thinks you're not an authority figure...

It was on my desk, tucked off to the side - it was after school, and I was expecting a call. Had it been in my purse, I wouldn't have heard it. I don't see how my leaving anything out, however, means that she is free to go through it. Just because I may leave my wallet on my kitchen table doesn't mean that my guests are free to take money out of it....

[GingerPow]

I've had her for 3 years, never met the 'rents, can't get ahold of them. Which provides some light in and of itself....
Can't help but wonder: if you have not been able to reach the parents in three years, is she having the same problem? :rolleyes: Could be a way for her to get somebody's attention, or as simple as she does not understand boundries.

It may be a matter of teaching her where the line is that she may not cross. It's amazing to me what some kids are allowed to get away with because parents want to be their buddy instead of a parent. Maybe you'll end up teaching her much more than German. Good luck with this situation. After reading through your posts badunnin, I'm impressed with your thoughtfulness toward this situation, and keeping the reaction to it appropriate.

Keep us posted please.

[mbrogier]

My French teacher my senior year was probably a lot like you, Bethany. I really liked her, but I'd been around enough younger teachers to know not to cross that teacher/student line. Rob was in college nearby and so was her fiance, so we'd walk there together after school. Some of the other students had a really tough problem with that because she was so much fun and got in trouble. One boy in particular... I'm thinking their issues may have had a lot to do with the fact that my teacher was very petite and slight. She was no hockey player. :D That boy didn't have parental guidance at home, so he pulled stuff at school as a cry for help. He finally got turned around.

In your case, I'm thinking this girl has a less than ideal home life, and is trying to reach out even if it means she gets in trouble. I definitely think she crossed the line. I agree with your plan.

[stefania4]

Can't help but wonder: if you have not been able to reach the parents in three years, is she having the same problem? :rolleyes: Could be a way for her to get somebody's attention, or as simple as she does not understand boundries.
My thoughts exactly.

[mcgeiger]

Don't know if you'll see this before school or not, but I wouldn't hand it up to administration.
I was that kid (I never went through anyone's stuff!), but I pushed the boundry because I knew I couldand get away with it...At the same time I really wanted my teachers to like me and I personally would have taken a talking to by a favorite teacher a lot harder than anything a principal would have said...just food for thought.

[sneezles]

It was on my desk, tucked off to the side - it was after school, and I was expecting a call. Had it been in my purse, I wouldn't have heard it. I don't see how my leaving anything out, however, means that she is free to go through it. Just because I may leave my wallet on my kitchen table doesn't mean that my guests are free to take money out of it....


Never said it meant she was free to go through your things be it cell phone or snack food.

I do believe you wrote that you were at a German Club meeting...still a school function. Most districts restrict the use of cell phones while at school, does the same rule for students not apply to staff?

[cocoa'smom]

You said you were reluctant to have her suspended. If you bring the matter to the administration, they may be forced to do just that, and it can affect her getting into some colleges. Many colleges ask on their applications if you have been suspended or expelled. I agree with other posters that it may be a cry for attention. I would suggest a one-on-one face-to-face sit down with her and see what is up.

[Beth H]

You said you were reluctant to have her suspended. If you bring the matter to the administration, they may be forced to do just that, and it can affect her getting into some colleges. Many colleges ask on their applications if you have been suspended or expelled.

Frankly, I don't think suspensions are a big deal on a kid's "permanent record" any longer. Expulsions are a somewhat different story - but several years ago, my husband had to expel a "good" kid for hacking into the school's scheduling system and changing his girlfriend's schedule. The kid had already been accepted to college, and this incident did not impact that at all.

I guess because I see the administration side of it, I agree with Cookin4Love - even "good" kids get in trouble, and it's important that they realize their actions could have consequences.

[tamawrite]

I was another "good kid" (who really was "good"), and if she's anything like me, what will hit her hardest is being made to feel just like any other kid. As in, she gets the punishment any other kid, "good" or otherwise, would get. There's nothing more embarassing to the stellar student than punishment others can't help but notice. (This isn't to say you should go out of your way to embarass her, of course, but simply that her absence for a couple days during her suspension will probably not go unheeded by her peers. That is more punishment than the suspension itself.)

[leebee]

In first grade, Mrs. Rhuhanen had a set of elephant ears you had to wear if you weren't listening and a trunk if you were being nosey. I say make her wear a trunk all day. It worked in my class. Of course, that was in the dark ages. 30+ years ago we could still be threatened with a paddling.

[Sarah428]

In first grade, Mrs. Rhuhanen had a set of elephant ears you had to wear if you weren't listening and a trunk if you were being nosey. :D

Well....what happened?

[sugarbaby]

I have a friend who's really good at wood-working. He could fashion you a paddle (with holes drilled in it) and I could send it overnight...oh wait, that's NAUGHTY! :eek:If it's a suspendable offense, let her suffer that consequence, let it affect her grades. Obviously, just talking to her didn't really change anything. All it takes for some kids is just once, and then they get the message.

I agree that she may be reaching out for attention, and you could talk to her about appropriate ways to do that while you're explaining the suspension process. Just because you're needy doesn't mean you get to be a twerp. :mad:

[badunnin]

Well, it's all been played out. I talked to her this morning, and mentioned that it was a suspendable offense. That was all it took. I told her I was going to Mrs. C, the asst principal, that I didn't want to see her suspended, but that I did believe it needed to be brought to their attention higher up. She said she didn't mean to be disrespectful, and apologised, then went to class. Her 1st hour English teacher also teaches German, and emailed me that the kid was having a meltdown. Rachel asked her what she had done, then told her that she agreed with me, that it was very wrong. Student went to counselling office, then to my classroom (I wasn't teaching yet). We had a long talk about boundaries, etc. She said she sees me as a friend, and that that was something she would do to a friend - go through their stuff. I told her not to confuse being friendly and being friends, that I like her very much, but that I'm not her friend. We chatted for a while, then I sent her on her way. The counsellor urged me NOT to go to administration. After talking it over with a few teachers, I decided that I needed to. My view was it needs to be on the radar. If I handle it personally, what's to say that 3 other teachers aren't also handling it themselves, and no-one is able to connect the dots to see a pattern. So, I sat down with the asst principal, had a chat, and she was going to call the student down. I'm sure the student will **** bricks, but that's fine - she won't be suspended, but likely will have to write a letter of apology.

Whew - what a day. And I have parent-teacher conferences tonight. Then BEvERages with staff. ;) And a much needed trip east to lovely Natashaville, Ontario! :D

[Robyncz]

That doesn't sound like fun, but good for you. I think you did the right thing--both in terms of setting boundaries for her and for yourself. You'll both be better off for it!

[dreamer]

I'm impressed too. I think you handled it really well.
Now you deserve some R & R!
-dreamer

[Leslie Ferguson]

Bethany - been following your saga and I'm glad things worked out as well as they did. Hopefully your student gets the point without issue.

Have a good trip to Natashaland and say high to Nat, Pirate Phil, and Cabot.

Les

[Meganator]

She said she sees me as a friend, and that that was something she would do to a friend - go through their stuff.

I'm glad it worked out for you. And although it wasn't part of what you need to deal with, I wish SOMEONE could make her understand that going through a friend's stuff isn't appropriate, either. Maybe she has a couple of high school friends that put up with that, but it will come back to bite her at some point when someone else ges p.o.'d at her.