toddler discipline and lack OF!

[katygirl]

Hi,

I know I should participate / look through past toddler mom's threads, but I am hoping if I start a new post it might get a bit more traffic.

I have an adorable and opinionated 22 month old. We have never successfully done time-outs with her but I am not against them either. She is gentle with other kids and a great sharer, but lately she is having horrible temper tantrums about things like putting on her shoes, getting dressed in the morning, getting in her booster seat, getting in the car seat, leaving the house etc. She is totally testing us and most of the time winning!

Does anyone have any advice? Should we be putting her in time out for this behavior? I try things like "which coat do you want to wear today", while holding up 2 coats to make her feel like she has some power, but still she will say NO and walk away.

Please say this has happened/is happening to other parents. Any Advice or a book title I could look up on Amazon?

Thanks,

Katy

[testkitchen45]

We survived raising little ones by using the Growing Kids God's Way series (for the most part; we didn't agree with every word but the principles are excellent). While our society says to give little kids all sorts of choices to let them feel that they have some control in their life, and to mitigate the fact that so many choices are really made for them, this approach increases the testing of wills b/c the kids aren't morally ready to accept choices without rejecting your authority. The GKGW approach (Biblical, but you don't have to be a Christian to accept its basic logic) is to keep children's choices extremely minimal, and only enlarge the child's world (her available choices) when she gradually matures into the ability to have choices w/o blowing you off.

For ex, if she has her choice of coat, cup, dish, activity, food, & so on, all day long, you may get along great. You haven't crossed her will yet. But as soon as you assert your authority--say, it's 20 degrees out and wearing a heavy coat is not up for debate--she pitches a fit because she isn't respecting your authority. You got along well all day--or for the past 22 months--b/c your authority wasn't called into question. Now, she's developmentally mature enough to think, "hey, I'm a separate person from Mommy, and I really don't want to do what she's asking!!"

My advice, having been in the trenches for several years (now w/ teens plus younger), is to gently but firmly state what is going to happen. No negotiating. When she is ready to accept your authority with a "yes, Mommy" because she realizes that God put Mommy (and Daddy) in charge to teach and protect her, only then should you expand her choices. If she continues to respect you, then you can expand them a little more. If you run into resistance, she's not morally ready to have her choices coexist with your authority, and you rein in the choices until she is.

This is NOT "I'm the dictator around here" parenting. This is loving parenting that recognizes the obvious--she is under your authority until she is grown-up enough to be on her own with responsibility for herself--and, rather than sweeping this obvious fact under the rug by doing the seemingly compassionate thing by giving her tons of choices at this young age, it instead does the truly compassionate thing by giving her only what she is morally ready to accept at any given point in her life.

You can try the website for Growing Families International for more info. We have really well-behaved kids who are far from perfect (good thing, since we as parents are far from perfect!! :) ) but who are pleasant people to be around, and have great character. Good luck!

[RunnerKim]

The way we handle it is to say "You can pick your coat or I will" and then sometimes (often at times) I am the one picking the coat.

I came to the realization with my DD (who's now 4 but my son is 19M) that sometimes you just have to sit on your kids at this age and put their shoes on. It's not fun, it's not easy, but it is necessary. I know if you went back and read toddler threads from when Lainey was your dd age - you'd find me asking the very same question. I was pretty close to sitting on Jamie this morning while putting his shoes on. He gets to pick where he wants to sit when I do it - if he doesn't pick right away then I do it for him. It's not drawn out and any consequences are immediate (and done without anger - although I'm often frustrated). Jamie gets his shoes on and we go on our merry way (well he does, I often have to take a deep breath and get over it. Easier for them to move on). I don't think time outs for this type of behavior would be effective at all at this age. I only do timeouts with Jamie when he's done something where he needs to be removed from the situation (not nice to the cat - hit his sister etc.) and that's more just a relocation and a firm no. I don't make him stay on the stairs or anything at this point.

It's a tough age for these routine kinds of things. It won't be too long before you can employ the "no breakfast until your shoes/clothes are on" type of thing and you have a bit more leverage in getting things done. Hang in there!

Kim

[HRJ]

The good news is, your DD is completely on target, developmentally. Yes, it happens to everyone.

My DS is now 5; I think we survived the toddler years fairly well and he's a generally well-behaved preschooler at this point. with, of course, occasional lapses on both our parts ;) I'm a big "researcher" my nature, and I ended up reading *way* too many toddler discipline/behavior books -- in the end, I found that I (and my DH) just couldn't completely "buy into" any specific philosophy.

I've become convinced that the key to any sort of discipline/behavior issue is acknowledging a child's particular temperament -- I know that all toddler's can be stubborn/willful/etc, but, some much more so than others -- just like adults. There are some kids who will be quite satisfied to be given a choice of two coats, and will feel empowered making the choice between the two coats, and offering two coats solves the problem. And I think too many child-rearing books/articles give the idea that *all* children will respond appropriately to the two-coat option.

But there lots of kids (mine among them), who realize that there is indeed an "obligatory other," as we like to say here on the CLBB -- that they can continue to refuse all coats. They may be doing this because they are continuing to challenge your authority, or because they feel overwhelmed having to make the choices, or whatever -- but, with these kids, offering endless choices is not going to work. (Or, maybe it will work three months, or six months hence, but it's not going to work now.) So, unpleasant as it may be, the child is going to have to learn that s/he is wearing coat A, and that's that. And it *will* be unpleasant, for both of you, and it may mean you have to literally stuff the kid into the coat. (And I'm not advocating any kind of physical punishment or mistreatment here). I'll admit, maybe there are other options that would work in this situation that I never thought of or tried, but I just know that the "choice" thing didn't work with us. I guess my approach ended up being somewhat similar to what testkitchen mentions, without any of the theological underpinnings.

About time-outs -- we never found them particularly useful, but, even for people who do use and like them, I think 22 months is a little too young for the child to fully "get it." My problem with time-outs, particularly at age 2 or 3, was this: most often, the situation you're facing with a strong-willed toddler is not that they won't *stop* doing something (ie, "stop throwing those toys or you're going to get a time-out"), but that they won't *start* doing something (ie, "put your coat on, or you're going to get a time-out").

So, the child refuses to put on his/her coat. You give a time-out (assuming that you have the time to do that, and that you're not already way too late getting out the door). The kid sits in a chair, on a step, or whatever, for two minutes. Then what? Maybe for some kids, this serves to calm them down, or re-direct their attention, or they say to themselves, "boy, sitting on this step is horrible, I better get my coat on because I don't want to do this again."

But for many kids (again, mine among them :rolleyes: ), they "serve their time;" discover that sitting on a step for a few minutes isn't so bad; and then they go right back to refusing to put the coat on. I just don't understand how time-out does anthing in this situation (except maybe give the parent a breather for a few minutes.) I also think kids can learn to use time-outs as a way to stall doing something they don't want to do. So don't feel bad if time-out isn't working for you.

I don't know if anything I've said here is helpful -- I know it's a lot about what *didn't* work for us; sorry I can't give too much advice about what always *did* work. My favorite child-rearing book is "Raising your Spirited Child," which I've written about on the toddler/preschooler threads, but, that's not really a "discipline" book -- it's more about helping kids cope with certain situations, and understanding how your child's personality "works." It's also more geared to kids age 3 and up.

Good luck,

Helene

[HRJ]

I'm glad to see that Kim posted while I was writing my (way-too-long) response: her comment about "sometimes you have to sit on your kids to get their shoes on" helped me through many a dark moment. ;) :)

H.

[beacooker]

I agree with RunnerKim and HRJ. Time-outs aren't very helpful for the behaviors you describe, and the best way to deal with it is just to power through it and do whatever you have to do to get them to do what you need them to do. As long as you aren't reinforcing the temper tantrums by not doing whatever it is your DD doesn't want to do. Eventually, she will realize that her temper tantrums aren't working, and she will give up. Then she'll find something else to drive you crazy with! :D

[lhall]

Katy

Have you looked at the Positive Discipline series? I read Positive Discipline for Preschoolers when my DD1 was a 4 -5. I think there's one for toddlers too. I liked the book because is stresses rewarding good behavior, not just disipline bad behavior.

Leigh

[Beth Y]

What worked for us was John Rosemond's books, particulary Parent Power and Six Rules. Basically, his theory is consistent discipline, etc. He really talks about making every kid understand their role in the family and in keeping the family working (personal responsibility). I have three kids, 4,4 and 8, with very different personalities. We have found his basic theories, when we remember to follow them, very effective. If nothing else, check parent power of out of the library and read the basics. Good info to keep in the back of your head.

[LA98]

I'm glad to see that Kim posted while I was writing my (way-too-long) response: her comment about "sometimes you have to sit on your kids to get their shoes on" helped me through many a dark moment. ;) :)

Oh me too, definitely!! It has really stuck in my head and I think it's the truth. I've often thought it when I see a parent trying to endlessly negotiate with a kid over something like putting on a coat...

I've rarely used time-outs, but when I did I saved them for something major, like hitting or biting, not the little day to day stuff. I thought they might be more effective that way, like he'd understand he really did something wrong if he got a time-out.

We've had very good results with "1-2-3 Magic". Basically, you're giving them a couple of chances to obey you before there's a consequence of some kind. It's a fairly short, easy to read and easy to understand book. DS, who is very strong-willed and stubborn, caught on to the concept pretty quickly. Some days he gives in before 3 and some days he doesn't -- this is a kid who would sometimes rather give up something he really, really loves than just do what I'm asking him to do. I've found that I need to be very consistent with him, and no about-faces when I've decided on something, and I think that helps a lot. With his personality, he'd run circles around me if he knew I might change my mind about a request of some kind.

And I do remember that the insane tantrums over *every * little * thing* did peak somewhere around 24 months, and now that he's turned 3 the tantrums have really diminished and he's much more agreeable to things he knows he just has to do. Hang in there!

[MinEaston]

I am sooooo glad you posted, because I am dealing with the same exact issues (my DD is 21 months old). I'm glad to hear it's normal, and that other mommies have survived it and have done what I've been doing somewhat instinctively.

It's a real test of patience, for sure. Especially when you have the rest of your daily lives to deal with!

Thanks again, I look forward to reading more responses.

[Kathy B]

While our society says to give little kids all sorts of choices to let them feel that they have some control in their life, and to mitigate the fact that so many choices are really made for them, this approach increases the testing of wills b/c the kids aren't morally ready to accept choices without rejecting your authority. The GKGW approach (Biblical, but you don't have to be a Christian to accept its basic logic) is to keep children's choices extremely minimal, and only enlarge the child's world (her available choices) when she gradually matures into the ability to have choices w/o blowing you off.



This was very interesting. I have a 3 year old nephew who can be quite a handful for his mom. She does give him a lot of choices, and I have thought that doing so seems to give him the idea that he should have some say in every decision that needs to be made. I may mention your book to her, although I would imagine it would be hard to back track now after he has had 3-1/2 years with lots of choices.

[Terri_A]

Okay, I'm just going to say upfront that I know that some people here are going to say I'm a terrible parent for what I do, but it works in my family...here goes -

For my DD timeouts have never worked. It just doesn't bother her and isn't a punishment or deterent for anything. So, starting around age 2 I began counting to 3 ( my counting slows if she begins doing what she should ). I made it very clear that if I got to 3 it would be followed by a spanking. I spank on the bottom ( covered by clothing ) with my bare hand - one swat only. She got the message quickly and I can't tell you the last time I got past 2! She's 4 1/2 now - quite well behaved although she has her moments just as they all do. I know my method is not what most choose these days, but it has worked tremendously well in our family.

For the record - prior to having DD and her turning 2, I was adamently against spanking and I understand if others are too.

[testkitchen45]

:) This was very interesting. I have a 3 year old nephew who can be quite a handful for his mom. She does give him a lot of choices, and I have thought that doing so seems to give him the idea that he should have some say in every decision that needs to be made. I may mention your book to her, although I would imagine it would be hard to back track now after he has had 3-1/2 years with lots of choices.
But imagine how hard this child will be to handle after, say, 13 1/2 years with lots of choices. :eek: Or after 23 1/2 years of thinking that his authority is supreme. :eek: :eek: :eek:

The GKGW series addresses how to backtrack if you've given your kids more freedom than they can handle, and need to pull back until they can respect your authority. I'd highly recommend that she consider changing her approach. If he doesn't respect her at 3, how will he respect teachers? friends' parents? laws? God? a future boss? We've all been there--I used the term "survived" [parenting] in my initial post for a reason! :) --and I like the GKGW approach b/c not only does it work in the younger years, I now see the results in the teen years: kids who (while not being perfect, of course; we now deal with older-kid challenges) are a joy for other families to be around as well as your own.

And, when all else fails, remember the wise words of my mom: "It gets better." ;)

[katygirl]

Thanks, all! And especially thanks for making me feel like others have been through this and survived! I picked up a copy of 1-2-3 Magic which got good reviews on Amazon and we have been trying it. Things have been getting a bit better, I'm sure it could be a honeymoon period, but I'll take the good!

Thanks again!