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Thread: In Case There Are Any People Left Who Still Like Sarah Palin

  1. #1
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    In Case There Are Any People Left Who Still Like Sarah Palin

    In the event there are any of you out there who still care for Sarah Palin, and those who don't, please look at the video on the Defender for Wildlife website. If you weren't sickened before, you will surely be now! I knew of her background on this issue before she became the Vice Presidental candidate and her views followed the previous governor of Alaska.

    Carol

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    WOW! I thought that was a joke I was seeing on Saturday Night Live about shooting wolves from helicopters in Alaska. Now I know that it isn't. :mad: This is sick!!! A very disturbing video.

  3. #3
    http://www.defendersactionfund.org/

    Not that I needed more reasons to dislike that woman. :mad:

    Warning: The long video is graphic, and heartbreaking.

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    Very horrible and disturbing.

    And yet I must wonder how people can support a candidate (Obama) who is in favor of a woman's right to do essentially the same thing, from a results point of view, to her unborn baby: to stop a beating heart by performing a violent, painful, sickening killing. Given the choice, I'll pick human-life protection from this very imperfect slate of candidates. I'm not excited about the Republican choices this year--I'm not a blind, Republican-right-or-wrong voter, for example--but I do see terrible irony in people's horror (including mine) at hunting in this manner, and yet an absence of horror at exactly what goes on during an abortion procedure on a human being.
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    Quote Originally Posted by testkitchen45 View Post
    And yet I must wonder how people can support a candidate (Obama) who is in favor of a woman's right to do essentially the same thing.....
    Shoot people people from an airplane? I think not!!!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gumbeaux View Post
    Shoot people people from an airplane? I think not!!!!!
    Take the whole quote, Gumbeaux; really.

    ". . . to do essentially the same thing, from a results point of view, to her unborn baby: to stop a beating heart by performing a violent, painful, sickening killing."
    If you're afraid of butter, use cream. ~~ Julia Child

    As you cook, you enjoy omniscience about food that no amount of label reading can match. Having retaken control of the meal from the food scientists, you know exactly what is in it. (Unless you start w/cream of mushroom soup, in which case all bets are off.) To reclaim control over one's food, to take it back from industry & science, is no small thing; indeed, in our time, cooking from scratch qualifies as subversive. ~~ Michael Pollan

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    I don't know what the other side of that story is, but I still like Sarah Palin abd I still plan to vote for the McCain/Palin ticket.

    Some people detest the hunting of any wildlife for food, too. I don't have a problem with that either.
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    Quote Originally Posted by testkitchen45 View Post
    Very horrible and disturbing.

    And yet I must wonder how people can support a candidate (Obama) who is in favor of a woman's right to do essentially the same thing, from a results point of view, to her unborn baby: to stop a beating heart by performing a violent, painful, sickening killing. Given the choice, I'll pick human-life protection from this very imperfect slate of candidates. I'm not excited about the Republican choices this year--I'm not a blind, Republican-right-or-wrong voter, for example--but I do see terrible irony in people's horror (including mine) at hunting in this manner, and yet an absence of horror at exactly what goes on during an abortion procedure on a human being.
    Well said.

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    Quote Originally Posted by testkitchen45 View Post
    Take the whole quote, Gumbeaux; really.

    ". . . to do essentially the same thing, from a results point of view, to her unborn baby: to stop a beating heart by performing a violent, painful, sickening killing."
    OK, I'll take the whole quote. From a results point of view, (to use your very words ) the death penalty, which McCain wants to expand, does the same thing.

    Let's not obfuscate the issue of killing animals from airplanes.
    Last edited by Gumbeaux; 10-11-2008 at 07:30 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gumbeaux View Post
    OK, I'll take the whole quote. From a results point of view, (to use your very words ) the death penalty, which McCain wants to expand, does the same thing.

    Let's not obfuscate the issue of killing animals from airplanes.
    I think killing animals from airplanes (or luring them to deer blinds, or similar hunting activity) is terrible. But I don't believe that giving a bigger picture--another perspective on the same issue--is obfuscation; rather, it's conversation about various sides of the issue.

    And I will never equate the as-humane-as-possible execution of a convicted criminal who has taken lives, when the criminal is attended by physicians and others who are ensuring that he, monster though he may be, suffers little, with the painful, horrific, ripping-apart-while-alive killing of an innocent, albeit very tiny, human being. No way are they the same thing.
    If you're afraid of butter, use cream. ~~ Julia Child

    As you cook, you enjoy omniscience about food that no amount of label reading can match. Having retaken control of the meal from the food scientists, you know exactly what is in it. (Unless you start w/cream of mushroom soup, in which case all bets are off.) To reclaim control over one's food, to take it back from industry & science, is no small thing; indeed, in our time, cooking from scratch qualifies as subversive. ~~ Michael Pollan

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    Palin engages in a disgusting act of killing animals for sport--not food, not protection (what're they gonna do, jump into the helicopter?), not any sort of necessity. Now, whether it is legal or not, I think it is ethically wrong. However, until such a time that it IS illegal, I will only question her judgement and consider what it says about her character from my perspective. Oh, and I come from a hunting/fishing background, so none of this claptrap about "you just don't understand," please. I am comfortable with where my food comes from. In fact, I favor eating wild-caught fish, fowl and meat. But I was raised better than to think killing for entertainment is sport.

    Obama supports a woman's right to choose--no, he supports a woman's right to control her own reproductive system. The same as there may be lawmakers who support the above-referenced behavior of Palin. Supporting the RIGHT and favoring the ACTION are two entirely different things.
    As the arc of history bends towards justice, it's a new, more progressive day. --Steve Benen, The Maddow Blog, 11-07-12

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    Quote Originally Posted by leebee View Post

    Obama supports a woman's right to choose--no, he supports a woman's right to control her own reproductive system. The same as there may be lawmakers who support the above-referenced behavior of Palin. Supporting the RIGHT and favoring the ACTION are two entirely different things.
    Leebee makes an important distinction -- Obama supports programs that will make the incidence of abortions lower. Adequate funds for sex education for starters.

    As to making abortion illegal -- Technically the repeal of Roe v Wade would not do this but would enable states to prohibit abortion since the right would not longer by guaranteed by the Federal constitution -- Many states recognize the right constitutionally and/or through statute -- it would be a cold day in hell before it became illegal in civilized states .

    In those states in which abortion is made illegal, poor women would suffer -- and we would be back in the days of back alley abortions since middle class and wealthy women would be able to obtain abortions -- as they did PRIOR to Roe by going to Canada/England/another state or going through the subterfuge of claiming medical reasons for same.

    The Catholic Church is at least consistent in its rationale as it is against both capital punishment and abortion -- give me consistency over hypocrisy.
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  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by leebee View Post
    Supporting the RIGHT and favoring the ACTION are two entirely different things.
    Are they? If someone doesn't choose abortion for themselves, it's likely because they feel it's ethically or morally wrong, right? Or is there another reason that someone might not choose abortion - because I can't think of one but maybe I'm not considering all possible angles.

    So, assuming the reason someone does not choose abortion is because it feels wrong then if it's wrong for them, why is it okay for someone else?

    And if you want to take the VERY emotionally charged issue of abortion out of it - I choose not to cheat on my spouse but it's okay if you want to.

    ETA: Oh, and I CANNOT believe that I just posted on a political thread that mentions abortion!

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by testkitchen45 View Post
    I think killing animals from airplanes (or luring them to deer blinds, or similar hunting activity) is terrible. But I don't believe that giving a bigger picture--another perspective on the same issue--is obfuscation; rather, it's conversation about various sides of the issue.

    And I will never equate the as-humane-as-possible execution of a convicted criminal who has taken lives, when the criminal is attended by physicians and others who are ensuring that he, monster though he may be, suffers little, with the painful, horrific, ripping-apart-while-alive killing of an innocent, albeit very tiny, human being. No way are they the same thing.
    I agree, especially with this particular paragraph. I've seen clips of partial birth abortions and I can't imagine comparing this with the criminal that is given his choice of execution, at least in some states.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lindrusso View Post
    Are they? If someone doesn't choose abortion for themselves, it's likely because they feel it's ethically or morally wrong, right? Or is there another reason that someone might not choose abortion - because I can't think of one but maybe I'm not considering all possible angles.

    So, assuming the reason someone does not choose abortion is because it feels wrong then if it's wrong for them, why is it okay for someone else?

    And if you want to take the VERY emotionally charged issue of abortion out of it - I choose not to cheat on my spouse but it's okay if you want to.

    ETA: Oh, and I CANNOT believe that I just posted on a political thread that mentions abortion!
    I believe that each woman should be able to choose for herself whether or not she wants to have an abortion. My morals/ethics/personal choices should not stop YOU from your choice. Would I chose to abort a child that would have medical problems and die at an early age? Probably. Would I chose to abort a healthy infant that was conceived at the wrong time? I don't know, I would like to think I would give the baby up for adoption. But those are MY choices, not necessarily YOUR choices and I shouldn't impose my will on you.

    Back to the OP's original post. I didn't see the video but I suppose if you hunt, it doesn't make much difference in the mode of transportation. I dislike the idea of hunting for sport, but if you are going to hunt for food, IMHO it is okay. (Again my opinion, my choices vs your opinion, your choice)
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  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by tbb113 View Post
    I believe that each woman should be able to choose for herself whether or not she wants to have an abortion. My morals/ethics/personal choices should not stop YOU from your choice. Would I chose to abort a child that would have medical problems and die at an early age? Probably. Would I chose to abort a healthy infant that was conceived at the wrong time? I don't know, I would like to think I would give the baby up for adoption. But those are MY choices, not necessarily YOUR choices and I shouldn't impose my will on you.
    But see that's where I don't know if it's really an honest examination of the subject matter. First, if you wouldn't choose abortion for yourself, you have to ask yourself why. If it's because you feel it's morally or ethically wrong then I'm not sure how you can say that it's okay for someone else to make that choice.

    Again, using my more removed example of adultery. If you think that adultery is morally wrong and choose not to commit adultery, is it okay if your spouse commits adultery? Well, that's probably not a good example, so is it okay if your son/mother/daughter/friend commits adultery? Or if someone confessed to cheating on their spouse, would you say - well, that's OK, it's your choice?

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    Okay, a) I can’t believe I’m getting involved in another political debate.
    And b) a few months ago DH’s hospital was interviewing an individual for a position; we went out to dinner with him; and somewhere in the conversation we asked what his parents did. He said his dad flew in aircraft and would shoot either wolves, coyotes (I honestly don’t remember). But in that conversation it didn’t strike me as odd at all.

    If there are predatory animals wiping out ranch animals, then I don’t understand why trying to control their population is seen as such an extreme negative point?? I mean, surely there have been other attempts in the past of trying to control one population of animals for the sake of another group. Now if you don’t eat meat at all, then I can totally understand why any loss of animal life is unacceptable….but if you DO eat meat……how do you expect to keep that supply steady if you’re totally for the rights-to-life of their predators?
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    Quote Originally Posted by lindrusso View Post
    But see that's where I don't know if it's really an honest examination of the subject matter. First, if you wouldn't choose abortion for yourself, you have to ask yourself why. If it's because you feel it's morally or ethically wrong then I'm not sure how you can say that it's okay for someone else to make that choice.

    Again, using my more removed example of adultery. If you think that adultery is morally wrong and choose not to commit adultery, is it okay if your spouse commits adultery? Or is it okay if your son/mother/daughter/friend commits adultery? If someone came up to you and confessed to cheating on their spouse, would you say - well, that's OK, it's your choice?
    I personally don't condone adultery since I honestly believe that if I have an affair I'm are not committed to my marriage any longer. But those are my beliefs and I try not to condemn others for their choices. And truthfully, I could see some situations where I could see an affair (husband physically incapable of having sex due to permanent illness or disability but not wanting to divorce him so he would still have medical insurance, etc). And not everybody values monogamy like I do, if you have an agreement that it isn't a deal breaker, why should I judge you on your moral choices? I think that is the problem with trying to make laws about ethical behavior, you are imposing your morals/ethics on other people.

    And to be perfectly honest, in my early 20's I did have a fling with a couple of married men. But I WASN'T committing adultery...they were so it didn't stop me. In hindsight, I probably wouldn't do it again, but I'm not 100% sure. Sometimes being a kept woman sounds pretty good to me
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  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by tbb113 View Post
    I think that is the problem with trying to make laws about ethical behavior, you are imposing your morals/ethics on other people.
    Point taken. When you wrote that I thought of the girls in college that were very promiscuous and while it was not something I could choose for myself, it was their life to lead.

    But it does seem to me that some moral/ethical choices are easier to "let slide" than others. I guess where abortion differs from other moral or ethical issues is that many people feel it is the taking of a life and if you believe that, there's a lot less room for being accepting of someone else's actions/decisions.

    And as to the issue of marriage and monogamy - I would say that if someone does not value monogamy, then it's fairly hypocritical to get married in the first place - at least if it's a religious ceremony where vows are made.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lindrusso View Post
    But see that's where I don't know if it's really an honest examination of the subject matter. First, if you wouldn't choose abortion for yourself, you have to ask yourself why. If it's because you feel it's morally or ethically wrong then I'm not sure how you can say that it's okay for someone else to make that choice.

    Going back to this one...I would have an abortion if it was putting my life at risk to deliver the child. But I may or may not have one for convenience/timing or because of the baby's health. In those cases, I would have the child and either raise it myself or give it up for adoption. But again, your choices may differ and its okay with me. What isn't okay is you making my choices for me.
    And as to the issue of marriage and monogamy - I would say that if someone does not value monogamy, then it's fairly hypocritical to get married in the first place - at least if it's a religious ceremony where vows are made.
    I agree with you...but I'm not sure I took vows of monogamy at my wedding (I can't find my vows to double check and it was a religious ceremony). I know that my finance and I had discussed it since he had affairs in his previous marriages. I wanted him to understand that if he did have an affair, as far as I was concerned the marriage was over. While the marriage did end, adultery was not the reason
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    Wow. Equating hunting with abortion is really, really a stretch.
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    Abortion is a difficult issue from a legal perspective as well as a moral perspective. I am the mother of identical twins. Identical twins during pregnancy are at an increased risk of developing twin-to-twin transfusion where one twin essentially supports the life of the other. It can develop at any point during pregnancy. I met a woman (whom I became good friends with) during a multiple birth pregnancy class. She developed this condition - she had to decide whether to lose both of her daughters or save one. So...it is easy to say all abortion should be outlawed, but she should get to decide whether she gets to have a daughter or no kids.

    Once again, my state has a ballot initiative to outlaw abortion. Under this law, the my friend would not have been able to decide - the law would have provided that she ended up with no kids.

    I abhor abortion as a form of birth control, but I think it is easy to forget that there are other circumstances that are impacted by laws banning abortion.
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    In Case There Are Any People Left Who Still Like Sarah Palin

    I am the original poster. I did not present the subject of Sarah Palin's despicable support of animal killing for sport to have this post turn into the subject of abortion. Let's keep these subjects separate, please!

    Carol

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blissful_in_TX View Post
    Okay, a) I can’t believe I’m getting involved in another political debate.
    And b) a few months ago DH’s hospital was interviewing an individual for a position; we went out to dinner with him; and somewhere in the conversation we asked what his parents did. He said his dad flew in aircraft and would shoot either wolves, coyotes (I honestly don’t remember). But in that conversation it didn’t strike me as odd at all.

    If there are predatory animals wiping out ranch animals, then I don’t understand why trying to control their population is seen as such an extreme negative point?? I mean, surely there have been other attempts in the past of trying to control one population of animals for the sake of another group. Now if you don’t eat meat at all, then I can totally understand why any loss of animal life is unacceptable….but if you DO eat meat……how do you expect to keep that supply steady if you’re totally for the rights-to-life of their predators?
    It is too bad this legitimate debate got sidetracked on abortion. :mad: Anyhoo I think this is a fair point. I bet you would not want to watch the slaughter of a cow, even a humanely slaughtered one--it would not be pleasant. Until and unless I know why she was hunting the wolves I would not jump on this issue--unless you are a PETA/vegan type. If you want to post an article about her hunting wolves, I am all for discussion, but a video is a terrible place to start. it has no context and I am sure is very upsetting to watch.

    And FWIW, ethics and the law are not at all the same thing. Sure our ethics inform our law, but not all of it and people certainly do not agree. Contrary to what some of you seem to think, the death penalty is an excellent example. For some people murder is murder; for others it is not black and white and there are cases where taking a life is permissible. 2 different codes of ethics trying to apply to the same legal situation.
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  25. #25
    Yes, sorry for the sidetrack......back to the original idea.......

    Quote Originally Posted by ljt2r View Post
    I bet you would not want to watch the slaughter of a cow, even a humanely slaughtered one--it would not be pleasant. Until and unless I know why she was hunting the wolves I would not jump on this issue--unless you are a PETA/vegan type. If you want to post an article about her hunting wolves, I am all for discussion, but a video is a terrible place to start. it has no context and I am sure is very upsetting to watch.
    I agree. It's inflammatory.

    If we're going to cry out for the poor animals, why don't we all take a field trip to a slaughter house or a CAFO and take a good look at how the meat most of us eat comes to our table. And don't take that as me not being sympathetic toward the humane treatment of animals either, I'm just trying to make a point. If we're going to skewer Palin for her hunting practices, let's all be really honest and take a hard look and make sure there's not blood on our own hands.

    I also wonder if all the hoopla is because she's a woman? It's more unusual for women to hunt (I've known plenty of men who do but very few women). I'm not keen on hunting for sport either, but it seems like people who might not normally take much notice about the whole issue of hunting are suddenly quite indignant. Or maybe it's just an example of trying to shred the opponent, no matter what the issue - even if it's an issue - humane treatment of animals - that I'll bet a vast majority of Americans spend very little time worrying over as a rule.
    Last edited by lindrusso; 10-12-2008 at 06:40 AM.

  26. #26
    Many Alaskans, especially natives, are subsistence hunters. That means they actually hunt, kill and butcher meat for their needs. If the wolf packs get too large the amount of available meat, elk, deer, etc gets reduced due to the wolves killing more of them. So, what natives used to do was actually go to the wolve's dens and kill the pups thus stopping the process at the very beginning. Is that a better option? It seems the managed killing of wolves in order to maintain a balance of predator and prey is good for all involved. (Except for certain wolves, I guess) Perhaps shooting from helicopters isn't "fair" but not sure what other methods are available or accessible given the inaccessibility of some areas of Alaska.

    I'm not necessarily for Palin for VP so my reply isn't about that at all. I tend to agree with Lindrusso in that this thread seems like a tempest in a teapot. Are any of you really going to vote, or not vote, for Palin based on this subject?

    I didn't read all of the replies thoroughly, so if this was already brought up, my apologies.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lindrusso View Post
    Yes, sorry for the sidetrack......back to the original idea.......


    I also wonder if all the hoopla is because she's a woman? It's more unusual for women to hunt (I've known plenty of men who do but very few women). I'm not keen on hunting for sport either, but it seems like people who might not normally take much notice about the whole issue of hunting are suddenly quite indignant. Or maybe it's just an example of trying to shred the opponent, no matter what the issue - even if it's an issue - humane treatment of animals - that I'll bet a vast majority of Americans spend very little time worrying over as a rule.
    No -- it's not because she is a woman -- It's because shooting an animal from an airplane is like shooting fish in a barrel -- much like the other "fake" type of hunting experiences -- What part of the human spirit is it supposed to appeal to and why shouldn't I be appalled that someone would find this to be a fun way to spend time.

    I am not a hunter but my understanding is that many hunters get a sense of satisfaction from using their skills in terms of tracking etc.
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    Quote Originally Posted by lindrusso View Post

    But it does seem to me that some moral/ethical choices are easier to "let slide" than others. I guess where abortion differs from other moral or ethical issues is that many people feel it is the taking of a life and if you believe that, there's a lot less room for being accepting of someone else's actions/decisions.
    .
    It's only a "life" as determined by certain religions. Making the act illegal is driven by those religions and is not universally viewed by most religions (and even people practicing those religions) as unethical.
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  29. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by blazedog View Post
    No -- it's not because she is a woman -- It's because shooting an animal from an airplane is like shooting fish in a barrel -- much like the other "fake" type of hunting experiences -- What part of the human spirit is it supposed to appeal to and why shouldn't I be appalled that someone would find this to be a fun way to spend time.

    I am not a hunter but my understanding is that many hunters get a sense of satisfaction from using their skills in terms of tracking etc.
    Yes, but wasn't her hunting an issue even before this whole wolf from the helicopters thing came out? So is it more about HOW she hunts rather than an issue of animal rights?

    And I've never hunted, but I would think that shooting from an airplane would actually be quite difficult wouldn't it? I can't imagine it's easy to take a shot from a moving object. I guess I'm not seeing how it's all that different from hunting for sport in general.

    Regardless, I kind of with Hammster on this one - it doesn't really seem all that relevant to the election. If we are supposed to look the other way when Clinton has oral sex in the oval office or when an elected official has an extramarital affair and say it's a private matter and has nothing to do with their ability to be serve, then why should this be any different?

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    Quote Originally Posted by lindrusso View Post
    Yes, but wasn't her hunting an issue even before this whole wolf from the helicopters thing came out? So is it more about HOW she hunts rather than an issue of animal rights?

    And I've never hunted, but I would think that shooting from an airplane would actually be quite difficult wouldn't it? I can't imagine it's easy to take a shot from a moving object. I guess I'm not seeing how it's all that different from hunting in general.

    Regardless, I kind of with Hammster on this one - it doesn't really seem all that relevant to the election. If we are supposed to look the other way when Clinton has oral sex in the oval office or when an elected official has an extramarital affair and say it's a private matter and has nothing to do with their ability to be serve, then why should this be any different?
    I have never heard anything about her hunting except as a way of appealing to the NRA and base -- dressing a moose in the field etc.

    For me, it's a disgusting sport -- but I find Palin so appalling on every level, that it's a non-issue for me. As a reason to not vote for a candidate, I find her stance on substantive issues reason enough.
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