Young Girls and "Old" Men

[RiverFarm]

I completely agree with Kim (VAcooker) as I think that girls are in danger if they are socialized to be polite.

....

You are attempting to teach her to not listen to her inner voice telling her that something is not right about the encounter. It is better for her to be "rude" than for her to be abducted or put into a compromising situation.

Amarante, I'm NOT attempting to teach her not to listen to her inner voice etc. My first thought was to tell her to say that she didn't know the person and that he was being rude. Some people thought THAT was too rude on her part, and it could escalate the situation, so I asked for some better ideas.

I'm going to read Protecting the Gift when it comes, and discuss some of the author's points with her as well as having her read any passages that seem especially helpful. Recently there was an exchange in Caroline Hax's advice column in which the writer asked what to do in a situation wherein her BF kept bringing up episodes in the writer's past, which had occurred long before she met him, and expressing strong disapproval of them and of her. Hax told her to run from the relationship because this man was making her question herself and her worth and undermining her ability to see herself as a valuable human being...etc. She stressed that a good relationship makes a person feel supported and good about herself. I showed it to DGD to help her see what one should expect from a BF and what one should avoid. So we do have these discussions when the occasion presents itself.

[PurplePotato]

Protecting the Gift is a good read. But we also have to pay attention to the fact that every male is not a predator. They aren't. To treat them all as they are is a disservice to them and yourself.

I completely agree with Kim (VAcooker) as I think that girls are in danger if they are socialized to be polite.

When is it ever okay to approach a female stranger out of the blue and make conversation and so the best thing to do is to teach someone that it is okay to ignore. It's really not that different from teaching young kids that their privates are their privates and no touch is okay.

Not identical I realize but why does an inappropriate male deserve to be treated with courtesy.

There are situations in which it is not strange - i.e. if you are sitting next to each other or standing on line to exchange a few pleasantries but when in the world is it appropriate for a strange man to approach ANY woman - let alone a younger woman - and start up a conversation out of the blue.
I think the sooner girls learn that it's okay to be "rude" when people are inappropriate the better.

You are attempting to teach her to not listen to her inner voice telling her that something is not right about the encounter. It is better for her to be "rude" than for her to be abducted or put into a compromising situation.

I think that there is nothing wrong with one person approaching another person to exchange a bit of small talk in life. I have no problem with that.

I think that a person approaching another person they find attractive to offer a flirtatious line is just fine.

There is no reason to respond to polite conversation with rudeness.

But when someone approaches you in an aggressive, creepy, predatory manner that is when our instincts kick in and a response to shut the person down is needed.

And women can be just as creepy, aggressive and predatory as men. They do not all get a free pass. I'm not overly happy with some of the assumptions being made in this thread. All men are not predators. And we do ourselves more harm than good to treat them all that way. When we are overly paranoid we can then fail to recognize the truly dangerous ones when we see them.

[VAcooker]

Obviously not all men are predators. No one here has said that. Obviously there are creepy women out there too. The OP was asking for input on what her DGD could say b/c the DGD indicated older men were hitting on her. For goodness sake, how inappropriate is that?

I have two daughters, one a teen and one a preteen. And they were taught that they absolutely have my permission to pick and choose to whom they speak and that there is no requirement to be nice to a stranger. I trust their instincts and I could really care less about either one of them potentially insulting a stranger.

[amarante]

I am not saying that all people or men are predators and that people should never communicate with strangers. I tried to give examples of when stuff like that is normal.

However, in my opinion, if the situation makes you feel weird, then there is no need to be polite.

And I think older men approaching a nubile young woman at a grocery store for what appears to be extended and/or in some way inappropriate conversation doesn't require the recipient to give the person a second guess.

I didn't get the impression that the men in question were exchanging a pleasantry at the check out line or even asking an appropriate question in context. What I understood was that strange older men were approaching the girl in a way that she was probably CORRECTLY interpreting as somewhat of a sexual pick up kind of thing.

Anyone can be predatory of course although in general women are less likely to be sexually offensive and in general I don't think teenage girls are at much, if any, risk from women.

[RiverFarm]

VAcooker and Amarante, that's exactly what I was saying. Thanks!

It's always interesting to watch how these threads evolve, isn't it?

[LakeMartinGal]

How about just saying, "I'm sorry, I don't talk to strangers." And walking away?

[LakeMartinGal]

I took one of these classes with DD when she was 13 or so. The best class I ever took. For the final class, the policemen teaching the class 'padded up' and then one by one, each person walked into the gym and was tackled/grabbed from behind by the the policeman. The person had to fight off the attacker. It was hard to watch DD get grabbed, even though I knew it was a simulation. However, to watch my baby take down the padded policeman brought tears to my eyes! I was so proud of her. Here was this over 6 foot tall, big, heavy, padded man and my daughter kicked his a$$. At 13 years old. In fact, I took him down too when it was my turn! He tackled me and was on top of me and I kicked out his legs and flipped him off of me and got away. It was a very intense class and very physical.

This was our final exam, too -- we didn't defend ourselves by the book, but we each passed the final, taking down a 300+ guy dressed like the Michelin man. It was very empowering!

[RiverFarm]

How about just saying, "I'm sorry, I don't talk to strangers." And walking away?

Kay, I like that. I'll suggest it to her!

[amarante]

Simple is generally good and who cares what some random stranger who is probably being "rude" in the first place thinks.

I also think social aplomb in terms of fending off unwanted situations hopefully comes as one gets older and more socially knowledgable. I don't think that a 15 year old should have to worry about being "rude" or being completely "tactful" if some guy is being inappropriate.

I think any guy who actually was being appropriate would understand completely if they were rebuffed.

[VAcooker]

This was our final exam, too -- we didn't defend ourselves by the book, but we each passed the final, taking down a 300+ guy dressed like the Michelin man. It was very empowering!

I found this class to be wonderful, yet very emotional for me, for some reason. It definitely took me out of my comfort zone. One of the more difficult parts of the class for me was becoming comfortable with screaming "No" at the 'attacker'. The instructor explained that as little girls, we are cautioned to be quiet, respect adults, don't talk back, etc. and many women, old and young, are really uncomfortable with yelling for help or otherwise attracting attention to themselves when they need help. Thus, in the class, we were taught that when being threatened, to scream 'No' pretty much constantly, (with every blow), which not only attracts attention, but forces us to breathe (really!), which in turn helps us to be able to think and fight to get away from someone who has a hold on us. The instructor said too many women get so nervous they hold their breath and do not breathe regularly--so screaming 'No' is supposed to be very effective.

I am really glad that the OP created this thread, b/c it reminded me to schedule another class for my younger DD to attend, now that she is near the minimum age for the class.

And to RiverFarm--you are a truly wonderful grandmother to put so much thought into helping out/guiding your DGD!

[foodfiend]

I started doing martial arts in my mid-20s and a lot of my problems with male attention went away. Our dojo taught us to walk with purpose, stay away from problem areas and people who look like they might cause problems. It also taught me how to handle myself physically in a difficult situation.

[1grl1by]

How about just saying, "I'm sorry, I don't talk to strangers." And walking away?

Except right there, you have proved yourself wrong, because you are speaking to a stranger and engaging them.