Harry Potter musings (no spoilers)

**badunnin** · 06-25-2003, 10:56 PM

I was just pondering how clever J.K. Rowling is in her writing, especially with character names and place names. Mary Kate and I were talking earlier about "Durmstrang", how much it is like the German literary movement of Sturm and Drang - storm and stress. Minerva is the Roman goddess of learning and the arts. Albus means white in latin. Voldemort is similar to the French Vol = flight and Mort = death - flight of death. How Lily is the Christian flower for purity. Remus was one of the two brothers raised by wolves who founded Rome (the other being Romulus). Sirius is the dog star. Guy Fawkes tried to blow up the Tower of London, starting the tradition of Bonfire Night. Hermes is the Greek god of messages and thieves (Roman equivilant is Mercury). Hermione was the daughter of Helen of Troy. Mrs. Norris is a bitter figure in Jane Austen's "Mansfield Park" who tries to destroy the much more sympathetic heroine. Veelas are storm and weather spirits in Slavic cultures, bringing hail and rain. Sybill was the Roman designation for a fortune teller. Even Sir Cadogan actually existed - he was an 18th century Earl. In mythology, both Greek and Roman, a three-headed dog guards the gates to hell. And don't get me started on the Malfoys....

This is why I love Harry Potter. Ok, one of the many reasons.

**Molli526** · 06-26-2003, 05:56 AM

So how do you love Order of the Phoenix?

Do tell about the Malfoys!

I was a science major down to the core, so I never had any lit classes or anything fun. Well, I could have taken a class or two, but then it would have put me behind for my requirements, so it would have taken me longer to graduate, which I wasn't about to do.

**Gracie** · 06-26-2003, 06:10 AM

Bethany, that is so interesting. I'm a science major, too, so I never took any lit classes. The only reference I've ever thought about is how Diagon Alley is so close to Diagonally, as in a direction, but off the straight path. Are there others (yes please share the Malfoys!).

Loren who is not feeling very smart right now!

**lakelady1** · 06-26-2003, 06:24 AM

One of the things I've liked about the books is all the literary, historical, mythological, etc. illusions that she makes. She really is very smart! I enjoy books that can be read on many different levels -- how many children understand that "Alice in Wonderland" is also a satire on cultural mores of the time??

I bought the book on Monday; but have to finish Hilary's book before I start Harry. One book at a time for me. And then my mother is insisting I read "The DaVinci Code". Busy summer with my nose in a book!

**yorkshirepud** · 06-26-2003, 06:37 AM

I can't wait to start mine. I received it yesterday. I almost attacked the delivery guy!

I'm refraining from starting it until Saturday (thankfully I received another book yesterday to stop me from peeking) when I intend to sunbathe out on the boat (going up to our cottage) while DH fishes and I indulge in some Harry Potter time. I can't wait!!!!!!

I agree with you all. She is a wonderful writer. I initially bought the books to one day give to my own kids, who knew I'd become an addict myself!!??

**badunnin** · 06-26-2003, 07:20 AM

I'm a geek of all sorts - science and linguistics.

Ok, the Malfoys. Mal in French is bad. Foi is conviction, faith. So, Malfoy would be bad faith. Draco can be compared to Dragon, the mother, Narcissa, from the Greek legend Narcissus: the best-known version of his legend is as follows. Narcissus, an extremely handsome young man, rejected the love of every girl, who fell in love with him, and they asked gods for vengeance. Once Narcissus bent over a stream to take a drink and saw his own face. He fell in love and indifferent to the world he stayed watching and talking with his own reflection until he died. Lucius is awful close to Lucifer.

Oh, and Lupin comes from the Latin Lupe, wolf. Also the name Argus (as in Filch) comes from the Greek Argos, who was a monstrous creature whose body was covered in eyes. Nicholas Flamel was a 14th century French alchemist and calligrapher.

She uses Latin a lot in spells of course, and the creatures she uses are usually right out of local folklore, myths and legends. Kappas, for example, are water demons from Japanese Shintoism who pull children under the water and drown them (ugh). And to go with Diagon Alley, there is Knockturn Alley = nocturnally.

BTW - I really enjoyed the 5th book. I read it straight through to find out how it ended, now I'm reading again for the details.

*edited to add: oops, my bad. Guy Fawkes tried to blow up Parliament, not the Tower. I always mess that up - I just had to confirm.

**paula** · 06-26-2003, 07:25 AM

Ya'll may be interested in this book.

The Science of Harry Potter How Magic Really Works
Roger Highfield
Viking, New York, 2002. 344 pp. $23.95, C$34.99. ISBN 0-670-03153-4. Headline, London, �12.99. ISBN 0-7553-1150-7. Paper, Penguin, New York, 2003. $14, C$21. ISBN 0-14-200355-7. Headline, London, �6.99. ISBN 0-7553-1151-5.

It was reviewed this week in the journal Science. It appears that it may be a bit dry for the average Harry Potter fan, but for those of you looking for connections to the Muggle world....

Paula

**gertdog** · 06-26-2003, 07:41 AM

Bethany, this is fascinating! I've picked up on a few of those references, but not nearly to the extent that you just explained them. Thank you for sharing! I like your new avatar, by the way.

Why should I read a book when Bethany can do all the work for me?

Just kidding- Paula, thanks for the book reference. I'm going to see if our library carries it.

**badunnin** · 06-26-2003, 07:54 AM

Originally posted by gertdog
Thank you for sharing!

You are very welcome! I've done some for the new book as well, but I will save those for the upcoming book discussion. Don't want to let anything slip.

**Terrytx** · 06-26-2003, 08:41 AM

Originally posted by gertdog
Bethany, this is fascinating! I've picked up on a few of those references, but not nearly to the extent that you just explained them. Thank you for sharing!

ditto!! I am soooo impressed.

**kirkbyky** · 06-26-2003, 09:07 AM

I can see some of the references in her books that reflect on other myths, classical stories, etc. Even the bits that are almost parallel to other stories (it has be said that JK Rowling has done a bit of plagarizing for the HP stories from other books). I think that she's Genius. I've already read #5 (9 straight hours on Saturday

) and will begin to re-read parts of it again this weekend. I also think that #5 was written a bit more 'Maturely' than the others and may be because of the large amount of adults reading the series (and HP is 15 now).

On a less appropriate note... I've heard this before and just looked it up to confirm. "Muggle" is old slang for marijuana cigarette. "Muggles" can actually be traced back to the 13th century as a Kentish word for "tail," and more famously the word was used by 1930's jazz musicians to refer to a marijuana cigarette. Reefer-smoking jazz great Louis Armstrong titled one of his records Muggles as a tribute to his favorite herb.

It's odd that JKR would use this in a childrens book, considering how much research that she has done for the series as a whole--I'm sure she ran across this info prior to publication.

Anyways, I'm looking forward to #6 now, and hopefully it won't take 3 more years!

Kyle

**colleency** · 06-26-2003, 10:58 AM

Thank you so much for that information! I don't think I'm paying enough attention.

**MKSquared** · 06-26-2003, 11:20 AM

From my AWAD email on Monday ....

muggle (MUHG-uhl) noun

With the fifth Harry Potter book out last weekend, the young wizard
continues his magic on children and adults alike. It's a sign of his
hold on popular culture that muggle, a word coined by the author of
the series, recently made it into the Oxford English Dictionary (OED).
To be precise, the word muggle has been a part of the dictionary for
a long time, even before Harry was born. The OED lists a number of
senses for this word (resembling a fish tail; a young woman; marijuana)
spanning the 13th to 20th century. But Harry Potter books gave a new
meaning to the term.

**MKSquared** · 06-26-2003, 11:23 AM

Some of the animal names are brilliant, too. A hippogriff draws from hippo (Greek for horse, right?) and griffin. (I love when Harry exclaims, "I'm so hungry, I could eat a hippogriff!")

And the spells, jinxes and curses! Their names are so much fun! My favorite is probably Tarantallegra!, which causes someone's legs to dance uncontrollably. I'm sure it comes from the tarantella (a dance) and allegro (quickly).

**Shirley Panek** · 06-26-2003, 11:33 AM

Bethany -

I read your post last night when you first posted, and have to agree with everything you've said. I think Rowling has done an excellent job weaving fact and fiction together - and making such an interesting read. Every time I reread one of her books, I notice another bit (clue if you will). I'll have to say that I've actually been listening to the second and third book with my son (as we read along), and picked up more bits with hearing the pronunciations. (I hear in my head how the words sound, so listening to the narrator speak the words differently (and correctly) is very helpful as well.

**badunnin** · 06-26-2003, 12:24 PM

Originally posted by Shirley Panek
Bethany -

I read your post last night when you first posted, and have to agree with everything you've said. I think Rowling has done an excellent job weaving fact and fiction together - and making such an interesting read. Every time I reread one of her books, I notice another bit (clue if you will). I'll have to say that I've actually been listening to the second and third book with my son (as we read along), and picked up more bits with hearing the pronunciations. (I hear in my head how the words sound, so listening to the narrator speak the words differently (and correctly) is very helpful as well.

Shirley - I majored in German Lit in college, so I learned to read for symbolism and things like that (really gets in the way of reading trashy romance novels!) and it taught me a lot about mythology - especially Goethe's "Faust" - that is all mythology based. I think the fact that I've only ever read them in German (except for Book 5) means that I had to pay even closer attention as well. I pick up more every time I read the books. With the last one, I just wanted to know who was going to die (hey, that's no big secret that someone was/is going to die). Now I'm re-reading, slower, to pick up things that I missed. A few things are translated in the German (like Rita Skeeter's name, as I found out) but most are the same.

For all you science people, my minor is math, and my first 3 years of undergrad were done as an engineering major. A great book along the lines of "Alice in Wonderland" is "Alice in Quantumland" - it's an allegory of quantum mechanics. I love quantum theory.

**RobinC** · 06-26-2003, 01:25 PM

I love all things Harry Potter!! This is a great thread.

Here is my small contribution. And a very minor spoiler.

I Order of the Phoenix, at the bit during which Arthur and Harry are entering the Ministry of Magic through the phone booth, the numbers
Arthur clicks to get in are 62442 - on a phone here in the US (and I'm assuming, in the UK as well) that spells out MAGIC.

I can't wait until we have a Order of the Phoenix discussion thread.

**gertdog** · 06-26-2003, 01:34 PM

Originally posted by RobinC
I love all things Harry Potter!! This is a great thread.

Here is my small contribution. And a very minor spoiler.

I Order of the Phoenix, at the bit during which Arthur and Harry are entering the Ministry of Magic through the phone booth, the numbers
Arthur clicks to get in are 62442 - on a phone here in the US (and I'm assuming, in the UK as well) that spells out MAGIC.

I can't wait until we have a Order of the Phoenix discussion thread.

Okay, I now have a much greater appreciation for the amount of time it took J.K. Rowling to finish the book.

That is so cool!

I think I had better re-read the book a second time before the discussion begins!

Anyone have origins for "Severus Snape"? Severus I can guess, but does Snape have a meaning?

**MKSquared** · 06-26-2003, 02:07 PM

Originally posted by gertdog
Anyone have origins for "Severus Snape"? Severus I can guess, but does Snape have a meaning?

I've just always chalked it up to its closeness to "snake." He is, after all, the head of Slytherin.

Nice call on the phone booth/MAGIC buttons.

**badunnin** · 06-26-2003, 02:09 PM

Mary Kate - I agree. The name Severus actually means "serious" (severe).

Robin - good call (ha ha - get it?) on the phone booth thing!

**MKSquared** · 06-26-2003, 02:11 PM

I'm just curious - if you look at the back of your Order of the Phoenix book, there's a page with all the printing details. Have everyone's books been bound in Willard, OH, or is it regional? Willard's this small town north of Columbus....

**badunnin** · 06-26-2003, 02:14 PM

Mary Kate - mine was bound in Indiana.

Oooh! Oooh! Can we discuss the Mirror of Erised? (doesn't translate well AT ALL, by the way)

**Molli526** · 06-26-2003, 02:18 PM

Mirror of Erised = Mirror of Desire

**badunnin** · 06-26-2003, 02:20 PM

Originally posted by Molli526
Mirror of Erised = Mirror of Desire

The full inscription is Erised stra ehru oyt ube cafru oyt on wohsi

In German, it's der Spiegel Nerhergeb (begehren) and the inscription is nergebeb z reh nie drebaz tilt naniedth cin

**MKSquared** · 06-26-2003, 02:20 PM

Originally posted by badunnin
Oooh! Oooh! Can we discuss the Mirror of Erised? (doesn't translate well AT ALL, by the way)

*snicker* What is the German word for desire?

I can't imagine too many words in the language looking vaguely pronouncable backwards.

**Molli526** · 06-26-2003, 02:21 PM

Originally posted by badunnin
Mary Kate - mine was bound in Indiana.

Mine too - Crawfordsville,IN

**Molli526** · 06-26-2003, 02:21 PM

Hey Bethany-

Pardon my ignorance, but what does Trudi misses home mean?

**badunnin** · 06-26-2003, 02:26 PM

Originally posted by Molli526
Hey Bethany-

Pardon my ignorance, but what does Trudi misses home mean?

No problem! Trudi is my nickname that most people call me. And I miss home - Michigan isn't home to me - the UP is what i call home. Thus the aurora avatar.

**Molli526** · 06-26-2003, 02:27 PM

Ah, I get it.

Why Trudi?

**badunnin** · 06-26-2003, 02:30 PM

When I was in high school, I took German at Troy High even though I went to Athens. I only knew the people in my class by the German names they had chosen, and they knew me by mine - Trudi. I'm still friends with a lot of those people, and my other friends have just caught on (except for one friend who refuses to use it).

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