Etiquette Question

**beejayw1** · 08-12-2003, 06:11 AM

I'm passing an etiquette question on for discussion.

Here's the situation:

At a sit-down dinner at a friend's house, a woman, one of the guests at that dinner, said that she was thinking of having a dinner party with a medieval theme on November 1 (which is a Saturday this year) with everyone dressing up in medieval theme. It was to be an adults-only party for various reasons (house is not child-proof, dog is unfriendly to children). The man hosting the dinner party where she mentioned this idea said, "Well, if my children can't come, I won't, either!"

(The situation with him is that he is divorced, and he gets his kids the first weekend of every month. This arrangement has been adjusted when necessary for him or for ex.)

So here's the question: what was the right thing to say or do? Other people were sitting at the table listening, people who also had children. (By the way, this isn't about disliking children: she loves kids, but her house is not suitable for them and she has a dog that she doesn't trust around kids. If kids do come to visit - family or friends - she takes steps to make things OK, but this party was contemplated as an adults-only party.)

Let's hear what you think!

(BTW, my comment was that he shouldn't have said that the way he did, and she was justified in smiling regretfully (and sincerely) and saying, "I'm sorry you won't be there.")

Edited to clarify the situation

**lhall** · 08-12-2003, 06:17 AM

I have to agree with you Diana. There's nothing wrong with hosting a no-kids event when that is announced in advance. I've been to several Murder Mystery Dinners that are adults only, and the host couple has a daughter.

I think it was wrong of him to respond the way he did. He could have asked if another weekend would be possible because he had his kids that weekend, but to say "Well, if my children can't come I won't either" was just rude.

Leigh

**ChristineVA** · 08-12-2003, 06:19 AM

Diana,
I think your thoughts on this are correct. He should have said either "oh, that party sounds great but I'm not going to be able to make it because I'll have my kids that weekend" or he should have said nothing at all and sent his regrets later. The first option would have allowed the hostess to change her weekend if she so desired his company, yet still would have let everyone "look" good shoudl they not be able to accommodate him.

As far as these people who try to bully others into having their children included, I really hate that. There is certainly nothing wrong with an adults only party and if you can't abide by that, then tough!
Christine

**lakelady1** · 08-12-2003, 06:19 AM

"Oh, we shall certainly miss you," is absolutely the correct response!

**clairea** · 08-12-2003, 06:21 AM

I don't think there is anything wrong with limiting a party to adults-only. I love my children dearly and am very fond of all my friends children, but there are times when I want to give or attend an adults-only function. That said, there have also been times when we have declined an invitation to an adults-only party because, for whatever reason, we wanted to spend that time as family time. When that happens, I tell the host(ess) quietly that we are unable to attend, and either say that we need the time as a family (if I am sure they will understand and not be offended by that), or just give the generic "I'm afraid we have another obligation". It sounds like the man in question made his statement in a somewhat abrasive manner, and I certainly think that was inappropriate, as was making it in front of a group of other people. I think the hostess in your scenario handled it perfectly. She is under no obligation to adjust her plans to accomodate children, particularly given the difficulties involved.

Claire

**claire797** · 08-12-2003, 06:22 AM

I'm sure Weekend Dad was just trying to make it clear that he had obligations he had to fulfill. What's he going to do? Tell his kids "Sorry, can't be with you tonight because I'm going to an adults only party." Still, he probably shouldn't have said it at the table because he put the hostess in an awkward position. I'm glad she stood her ground.

Beejay, I agree with you. However, I'm sure Miss Manners would say they were both out of line for making plans for next month's party at the dinner table in front of all the guests.

**wallycat** · 08-12-2003, 06:36 AM

I agree with you Diana.

I also think that the man could have waited and talked to the ex to see if she would have agreed to switching a weekend--you indicated that these changes had been done in the past.
This could have been a non-issue if he simply waited to discuss the whole thing first, in private.

**MrsReber** · 08-12-2003, 06:41 AM

I agree with everyone. That was kind of rude and I'm sure made things a bit awkward. He should've addressed the issue privately.

**stefania4** · 08-12-2003, 08:11 AM

Agreed. I'm sure that our "no kids" policy at our wedding reception was the reason for at least a few of the declines we received. They simply said they were on vacation, couldn't attend or whatever, and didn't make a big deal out of it. We said we were sorry they couldn't make it and we hoped we could get together another time.

For what it's worth I think the hostess was smart to let people know that it's an adults-only event. I've been astounded at the audacity of people bringing their kids to what are clearly adults-only events (e.g. dinner parties, 40th birthday party in a bar, weddings where only the parents' names were listed on the inner envelope, etc.).

**CompassRose** · 08-12-2003, 08:13 AM

He should have addressed the issue? I beg your pardon, he has no issue. She is having a party, and she chooses whom to invite. It's not a matter of liking or disliking children, either. If the children are not invited, FOR WHATEVER REASON, they are not invited. If his Aunt Flossie isn't invited, she can't come either.

If he can't come because of his children, it's his loss. He sends his regrets. Politely, I might add.

(I'm assuming that everyone else there was also invited to the medieval party. Otherwise, yeah, it was a bit rude of her to talk about it...)

**KristinK** · 08-12-2003, 08:22 AM

Originally posted by claire797
However, I'm sure Miss Manners would say they were both out of line for making plans for next month's party at the dinner table in front of all the guests.

That was actually my first thought too.

Perhaps the host was offended not that his guest announced that her upcoming party would be adults-only, but rather that she announced it at HIS dinner, especially if she had prior knowledge that he would be with his children that particular weekend. His statement may reflect his hurt feelings, or he may not have even intended to come across as rude. Regardless, he responded harshly, and I think in turn, she responded appropriately.

**Leslie Ferguson** · 08-12-2003, 08:56 AM

Too bad for him and his childish reaction. Good on the hostess for putting the marker on the table early.

I could make a cynical comment but that would be poor etiquette from me.
Les

**sneezles** · 08-12-2003, 09:34 AM

I think the host might have been a bit stressed with his reaction but it was still rude, none the less.
If the conversation at the table was about parties then I don't think the woman was wrong bringing it up but if it just her way of making conversation then she was rude as well. Simply mentioning a party that is 2 months away would have been fine. The actual invitations could have said "Adults Only"

So were the guests of this dinner party not friends to start with? Or was the guest just an acquiantence of the host? If they have set a date for this future party then I think it's pretty much a done deal and not something she's thinking about.

As friends, our group gets together often and many times discuss ideas for the next party. Four of the couples have no children living at home anymore, DH and I have one teeenager and the last couple have 3 boys at home (oldest 16 youngest 8). One of the four child-free (

) couples hs their grandaughter many times and another has a grand-nephew (major age span in the family).
No one is offended by leaving the children home because we have many occasions where they are included (even at the bar, in Texas children can be in a beer joint as opposed to a full bar). But if for some reason the mom isn't clear on any given party she calls to find out if the kids are welcome or not.

**lindrusso** · 08-12-2003, 10:12 AM

I find it interesting that some folks are offended when kids are not invited.

We have a group of friends who get together regularly and although often time kids ARE included, there are times when they are not (would you really want to go to a nice wine tasting, for example, with lots of kids running around????). We are NEVER offended. If anything, we look forward to getting together without the kids and having more time to chat without constant interruptions or without having to traipse after toddlers all evening!

Alysha

**stefania4** · 08-12-2003, 10:25 AM

Originally posted by lindrusso
I find it interesting that some folks are offended when kids are not invited.

It's unreal; there are people who consider leaving their house without their kids to be equivalent to child abuse. I've ended up distancing myself from some former friends because of this issue; if we're planning a cookout, then by all means bring the kids. If we're planning an evening of ballroom dancing, it is NOT all right to bring the toddler.

I had one acquaintance, prior to our wedding reception, tell me in no uncertain terms that her 2-year-old had BETTER be invited to our adults-only reception because "everyone knows we don't go anywhere without the baby." We did indeed know that, which is part of why the parents weren't on the guest list at all.

**NancyR** · 08-12-2003, 10:26 AM

My friends recently had a family reunion including immediate family - grandparents, 3 kids & spouses, numerous toddlers and pets. Their son's large, lovable dog was completely freaked out by July 4 fireworks and thunder at same time. He locked him up and warned all that the dog was locked up in the next room. Their daughter forgot and took her toddlers in there to change out of wet bathing suits. Her 1 yr old was badly bitten....stitches.....blood.....tears.....emotion s stretched to the limit.
This guy should be thankful she has the sense to exclude kids if she is unsure of her pet.

**MrsReber** · 08-12-2003, 10:33 AM

I wouldn't be offended if my children weren't invited. It's ultimately up to me what I decide to do with my own time and it's ultimately up to the host or hostess to decide if they want children present. If I decide I'd rather be with my kids, then I would politely decline. And I most certainly agree that if this woman is uncertain of her dog around children, she is doing the right thing.

**Vanessa** · 08-12-2003, 10:52 AM

In our group of friends there are some with kids and other without kids. I think there are many instances that activities are for adults only. I am sure this man could have discussed with ex wife or make other arrangements. I agree the lady saying with a smile sorry you cannot join us or whatever was ok.
I remember for our wedding we specify no children except DH's nephews and nieces and what we did was they ate then we had a room and an adult supervising so the kids could go upstairs to the hotel room and have cake ice cream tv etc and adults could enjoy specially the parents.
I do know some get offended when an invitation is no children but they should realize that many times some places are not suitable for kids and the kids will be bored.

**beacooker** · 08-12-2003, 10:57 AM

I agree that the man was rude to say what he did. And I really agree that adults-only events are perfectly acceptable.

I was invited to a wedding a few years ago, and the invitation specified adults only at the reception. This was fine, but I thought it was kind of rude that the groom's 5 year old son WAS at the reception. I mean, obviously they wanted his son there, and I certainly don't argue with that, but I just wondered how people who had gotten babysitters for their kids felt about it. I didn't have kids at the time, so it wasn't an issue for me, but it still kind of bugged me. Do you guys think that was rude of the bride and groom, to exclude all kids but their own?

**Jessica** · 08-12-2003, 11:12 AM

We do not have children and our house is not at all childproofed--steep stairs, cleaning products under the sink, etc. Our parties are strictly adults-only, and our friends with kids know they can decline if they can't or won't get a sitter. We do invite families with kids but only to smaller events where I can monitor where the kids go. I don't want to be responsible for someone getting hurt in my house.

Anne, IMHO, the bride and groom were not rude to include his son and not other children. I think that is a special case. If they had invited some guests to bring kids and not others, that would be a different story. It might have been nice to have other children to play with the groom's son, but I don't think their decision was rude to the other guests.

**stefania4** · 08-12-2003, 11:35 AM

Anne, I think it was fine. I don't know where the "invite all or none" idea comes from - I didn't invite my entire graduating class because I invited two friends from college, I didn't invite my entire department just because I invited a coworker, and I can't imagine inviting thirty kids just because I invited two.

**tbb113** · 08-12-2003, 11:48 AM

The ONLY time I was angry over my son (who was 4 months and still nursing round the clock) not being invited, was when I showed up without him and there was another infant (that had just been adopted that week) that was included. Excuse me...they could have gotten a sitter just as easily as I did, or my son should have been able to come since I was still nursing or they could have declined the invitation.

But to have an adult only party...I'm fine with that

**hlao23** · 08-12-2003, 12:31 PM

Interesting thing regarding weddings:
I was leafing thru an etiquette book a few weeks ago (famous name from the 1930's...don't think it's Miss Manners tho') and she said that one should never have one's children from a previous marriage present at a second wedding unless the person had been widowed. Just thought it was an interesting tidbit.

**Wendy w** · 08-12-2003, 01:10 PM

My friends do have functions both with and without kids, we also have "girl's nights" too and so do the guys. There is a time and a place for everything. It is up to the hostess and she is well aware of how her dog is. I do remember several times as a child where I was the only child present at adult functions. The hosts allowed me to attend because I was well-behaved. The reality was that I was raised to behave or else.

I remember several years ago where the company that I was working at the time would have an elaborate adult formal holiday party. I remember hearing that one person had a fit because he and his wife could not bring their daughter to the party and she would go everywhere with them. I think that the host was out of line and should arrange w/the ex if he wants to attend.

Another thing: Remember 10 years ago when they were trying to make Las Vegas a "family" vacation spot? Ten years later, it has failed and is back to being an adult get-away. As I said, there is a time and place for everything.

**slknight** · 08-12-2003, 01:30 PM

Originally posted by Wendy w
As I said, there is a time and place for everything.

Oh, definitely! If someone told me it was an adults-only party, I'd think oh, cool, an evening without kids! It's not that I don't love DS, but it's still nice to have some time away from him, you know?

And I may get flamed for saying this, but is it really healthy to take your child everywhere? I think that some time away from parents teaches children to be a little more independent. But that's just MHO.

Yes, Diana, that person was certainly rude.

**Peggy** · 08-12-2003, 10:55 PM

I'll throw in my two-cents worth...

When I remarried, my DD was 6 years old. We had our wedding and reception at a winery in the evening and it was adults only affair. However, I chose to have my DD be my "Maid of Honor". She was there for the ceremony as my sole attendent (and behaved beautifully, I might add!!

). As soon as the ceremony was over and pictures were taken, she was picked up by a friend and left before the dinner and dance began. I felt this was appropriate, but one of my sisters has still not forgiven me for not inviting her two chldren to the ceremony (a 5 year old boy and a 1 year old girl). I can live with her anger. I still feel that it was totally unappropriate to have her children attend the ceremony. My DD was an important part of it. I don't think her kids would have had a clue what was going on and could have cared less. It was more about her than anything else.

To the actual question, I think the hostess handled the situation perfectly by stating that they would miss him.

Peggy

**Peggy C.** · 08-13-2003, 06:10 AM

Can everyone with children who are not offended to be invited to ADULT ONLY parties please move to NE Ohio?[/SIZE]

Our friends are very offended to not have their children included in every event or party that happens. I am completely ok with parties that include kids as long as it is appropriate. We had a party and called it a Happy Hour party. And people asked to bring their kids. Ummm would you stop with them after work and hit a bar for Happy Hour? I hope not.

Diana I don't her response "I'm sorry we'll miss you" was wrong at all, it is a shame he had to react so quickly, because I've been on the receiving end of it and it's no fun. I don't feel anyone should have to explain why they can or can not attend a function or why or why not someone is/isn't invited.

Wendy you'll like this. Every year I go to Put-in-Bay with a bunch of girlfriends (actually going sat.) and when we invited one of our friends (see above) she said oh great Rachel will love it. Umm no rachel is 1yo and I don't think she'll tolerate a full day of dancing and drinking!

**Peggy C.** · 08-13-2003, 06:15 AM

Originally posted by slknight

And I may get flamed for saying this, but is it really healthy to take your child everywhere? I think that some time away from parents teaches children to be a little more independent. But that's just MHO.

Not by me, I agree with you 100%. When I tell my Dad (and when my Mom was alive) that our friends almost never get sitters they think that is the strangest thing.

**claire797** · 08-13-2003, 06:26 AM

Originally posted by slknight

And I may get flamed for saying this, but is it really healthy to take your child everywhere? I think that some time away from parents teaches children to be a little more independent. But that's just MHO.

I totally agree. I had to end a friendship with someone over this. She was one of those people who insisted on bringing her son to every single event, including evening concerts and adult dinners. I take my DD everywhere too during the day, but I feel it's important to have some time alone with other adults. It's really hard to give an adult friend your full attention when you're trying to look after a 2 year old.

**Leisa M** · 08-13-2003, 11:10 AM

I don't have kids, but I do feel that Adult-Only is a good thing. My house is certainly not child-proof, also, my dog is not too happy around young childern. She feels that she has to protect us.

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