Silly thing that's bothering me...

[JulieM]

This is a silly thing I guess, but it's bothering me so if you don't mind I will share it with you.

Since May, DH has been going to physical therapy twice a week, and I tag along and catch up on notes or phone calls while I wait for him. There's a diner nearby that specializes in breakfast, so we've been going there afterwards for a late breakfast since the beginning, and we use these days since we're already out to run errands and pick up groceries and supplies for our boatwork.

The restaurant has been there for decades and the waitresses there are really friendly and nice. They chat and tease with us and are constantly trying to refill our coffee cups. We have felt so comfortable and welcomed there that we've gotten into the routine of reviewing our notes of what supplies we're picking up, and putting our plan in order for the rest of the day while we sip our coffees. Or maybe we just sit and discuss a personal family problem. It's sort of a peaceful break from our hectic life. The place is rarely very busy and I'd say we stay about an hour and a half and we always leave extra tip for keeping the table so long, even though there were not enough customers to have caused the waitress to lose any tip money.

So here's the problem. Yesterday as we were preparing to leave, the woman who handles the cash register (who I think is the owner) came over and very rudely informed us that the restaurant was not an office and we were habitually staying too long and then rushed off before we could say anything. We immediately got up and paid the bill. We apologized to her and tried to tell her in a polite way that we had always been made to feel it was fine for us to take our time, and had always left extra tip, but she was flustered by the incident and just kept repeating her phrase "this is not an office." Ironically there was almost no one in the restaurant, so this was clearly not an issue that we were having any affect on business. Plus, the place has free wi-fi and we see customers there using their computers sometimes. It's a big place with two rooms, and during the week, the second room is open and available but always empty.

I'm not used to being treated like this, and it shook me up and made me feel sad and somehow thinking we'd done something wrong. Admittedly I'm an overly sensitive person. I thought I'd be over it by this morning but I woke up thinking about it. The other problem for me is that we are very friendly with three of the four waitresses there (the fourth one rarely waits on us, I guess because of the table we sit at). And so it feels weird to simply never go back without apologizing to them if they feel we had taken advantage in some way. I really can't imagine they do though because they would be constantly trying to refill our cups and chatting with us at our table right up until we left each time. The classic symbol that it's time to move on is when there are no more refills and no one comes by the table any more. And of course you pay attention to whether the restaurant has gotten busy and you're taking up a table.
Okay, I've purged. Maybe I'll feel better now. In the scheme of things to worry over I know this one is miniscule. Thanks for listening!

[Robyncz]

Uggggghhhhhhhhhhh.

I can totally understand why this would bother you.

I can also totally understand why the place isn't busier if this is how the manager (the OWNER???) treats regular customers. It just doesn't make a bit of sense.

If it were me, I would take my business elsewhere. I might be compelled to write a letter--in the event that WASN'T the owner--to say you were disturbed and disappointed by the treatment and that you wonder why in the world they would provide free WiFi if they didn't expect people to stay awhile. The whole POINT of a place providing WiFi is to get them in the door and keep them there. I'd finish off by saying that having enjoyed the place and the great service for so long, you're sorry to say that you won't be returning.

A good business owner will scramble to make amends. Someone looking to go out of business will ignore it altogether.

[LakeMartinGal]

Y'know, this would bother me, too! I can't think of any reason the owner/manager/anyone would try to discourage you from being there, as long as you've actually ordered and eaten, and are leaving a tip -- and not keeping other customers from doing the same!

I totally agree with Robyn's assessment of this, and how to handle it.

[sparrowgrass]

It might not be you, or anything you were doing. Maybe the woman's car broke down that morning, or her kid got in trouble at school, or yadda yadda yadda, and you were just in the wrong place at the wrong time.

If you like the place and feel comfortable there, go back.

(But if it happens again, find a new place. )

[bobmark226]

I understand how you feel, Julie, and the situation certainly didn't warrant her behavior. But somehow...maybe there are just people like "us" out there...if it were my business and I saw people sitting there for an hour and a half doing what you were, I think that my nose would get out of joint about it too. Maybe it's territoriality, maybe it's preventing a lot of such activity starting there, maybe it's a mental issue , but, really, to repeat myself, I kind of understand her "what do they think this is?" feelings too. If she's just a manager or employee, though, it's one thing; if she's the owner, it's quite another.

Is there perhaps not a coffee house, a Starbucks, say, in the area where people do exactly what you were doing and it's routine?

Bob

[Shugness]

I'd be upset over that too. What Robyn has suggested is spot on.

[avariell]

Originally Posted by bobmark226

I understand how you feel, Julie, and the situation certainly didn't warrant her behavior. But somehow...maybe there are just people like "us" out there...if it were my business and I saw people sitting there for an hour and a half doing what you were, I think that my nose would get out of joint about it too. Maybe it's territoriality, maybe it's preventing a lot of such activity starting there, maybe it's a mental issue , but, really, to repeat myself, I kind of understand her "what do they think this is?" feelings too. If she's just a manager or employee, though, it's one thing; if she's the owner, it's quite another.

Is there perhaps not a coffee house, a Starbucks, say, in the area where people do exactly what you were doing and it's routine?

Bob

I would go out of my way to figure out if she is the owner or a manager. If she is not the owner, I would explain the situation to them. If they hold the party line, I would return to the restaurant, seek out the servers I really enjoyed and explain to them why I won't be returning. I wouldn't do it in a dramatic way - just more to say thanks and that it wasn't personal (with the servers). I would do this with my head held high and no embarrassment but I am kinda brash that way

And I agree with something else Bob said - while the little cafe was part of the reason why you enjoyed the routine, I think spending quality time with your dh was probably the bigger reason. Find somewhere else to continue the habit because it has to be wonderful for your relationship and mental health

[bobmark226]

I should also have said that it's possible that this was once a problem for them, the problem was corrected, and they don't want to see it start again. For example, how do you differentiate it from, say, a bunch of kids stopping in after school and spending a similar amount of time? It's not a "hangout," really, for anyone; it's a restaurant.

Looking at it from another point of view, I know I wouldn't be comfortable doing what you did in a restaurant of any kind, which is not to say it's wrong, just that I wouldn't feel right about it.

Bob

[HejazSunKat]

If they're offering free wifi then they're encouraging people to linger. It sounds to me like you and your husband have been very sensitive to the situation and an hour and a half doesn't sound like a very long time to me to sit in a coffee shop. Even if her perception of your behavior is different from yours she handled the situation extremely poorly. There are polite ways to get a message across and she could have started by telling you with a smile that she was glad you liked it there but if you intended to sit for X amount of time then she'd appreciate it if you'd spend a little more money (assuming that was her problem) before going defcon1 on regular customers who will now not only never come back but also tell people why (I would!). Is the economy that good where you are that she can afford to lose business? She was a fool to do what she did. I know everyone can have a bad day but I would never feel comfortable in there again. I would probably go back briefly to explain to the waitresses I was friendly with why you wouldn't be coming in anymore then I'd find another place to drink my coffee.

[bobmark226]

Originally Posted by HejazSunKat

If they're offering free wifi then they're encouraging people to linger.

Really, Linda, "linger," as opposed to avail themselves of a convenience when they came to eat? Where is this written or implied, except maybe in some people's heads?

Remember when B&N reopened their spiffy new stores and they were loaded with chairs and before you knew it, people were buying coffee, parking themselves in for long periods and reading? B&N removed all the chairs. The books were there and they serve beverages. Does that give people a right to sit and read them for long periods of time?

(In Manhattan, people moved up to the signings area where there were always folding chairs. I guess they figured they were still being encouraged to linger?)

Bob

[HejazSunKat]

Just my opinion Bob and you don't have to agree with it. What does a business THINK is going to happen if they offer free wifi? They're effectively turning themselves into internet cafes by doing it. I think it IS implied that 'we'd like you to stay awhile' and I think it's naive of them to think that everyone who walks in there intuitively understands what the business wants them to do. If they want people to spend X amount of money per hour to sit in their coffee shop and surf the web, run their business or study then post it where everyone can see it and understand the 'rules' otherwise take out the wifi because there are ALWAYS going to be people who will abuse a privilege and others who will be scrupulous and sensitive to what their implied obligation is.

[bobmark226]

Originally Posted by HejazSunKat

Just my opinion Bob and you don't have to agree with it. What does a business THINK is going to happen if they offer free wifi? I think it IS implied that 'we'd like you to stay awhile' and I think it's naive of them to think that everyone who walks in there intuitively understands what the business wants them to do. If they want people to spend X amount of money per hour to sit in their coffee shop and surf the web then post it where everyone can see it and understand the 'rules' otherwise take out the wifi because there are ALWAYS going to be people who will abuse a privilege and others who will be scrupulous and sensitive to what their implied obligation is.

LOL, Linda, I know it's just your opinion and I don't have to agree with it. I just didn't!

How did the restaurant make money from Julie and her husband with free coffee refills? Weren't they stopping there anyway? Wouldn't they have done so wiithout the wi-fi?

You've ignored all my other points before this, like how do you know it wasn't a problem, or what's the difference between folks availing themselves of the wi-fi after spending a couple dollars and a bunch of kids hanging out for the same amount of time after a burger and a coke? Is that acceptable?

And again, I am NOT being critical of Julie, or you, I just feel it's not something I would ever do, but then I tend to be a bit self-conscious that way and I feel there's another side to it, which is not to excuse the cashier's behavior.

Bob

[Rae]

For me, restaurants are social gathering spots and places where I meet my busy friends and family to catch up while also having lunch, dinner, etc. I would never linger while others are waiting, but we tend to go out later and this doesn't usually seem to be a problem. And while I rarely have obvious business discussions (laptops, folders, etc.) over meals, I do see people who do and do not see anything wrong with it. I also do not see anything wrong with sitting at a restaurant table for 90 minutes - nothing at all. In fact, seems like it would help out a restaurant that isn't all that busy, to make it look like they have loyal customers, etc.

All of that being said, seems like there is likely something else afoot here. Maybe the manager did just have a really bad day? Maybe the fourth waitress has been griping that she isn't getting her share of your large tips, and the manager had finally had enough? I don't know what her issue is, but seems to me that it's pretty unlikely related to your time at the table.

[HejazSunKat]

Originally Posted by bobmark226

LOL, Linda, I know it's just your opinion and I don't have to agree with it. I just didn't!

How did the restaurant make money from Julie and her husband with free coffee refills? Weren't they stopping there anyway? Wouldn't they have done so wiithout the wi-fi?

You've ignored all my other points before this, like how do you know it wasn't a problem, or what's the difference between folks availing themselves of the wi-fi after spending a couple dollars and a bunch of kids hanging out for the same amount of time after a burger and a coke? Is that acceptable?

And again, I am NOT being critical of Julie, or you, I just feel it's not something I would ever do, but then I tend to be a bit self-conscious that way and I feel there's another side to it, which is not to excuse the cashier's behavior.

Bob

Well, you assume I READ all your other points. No, agreed, perhaps the business did not make any money on Julie and DH on this (or previous) occasions if they just came in and had a leisurely cup of coffee but what the business has been doing by allowing it is generating goodwill which I think is extremely important for them. Because they felt comfortable and welcomed there they would have been likely to eat a meal there in future and to tell their friends what a great place it was. As for the wifi, I only mention it because Julie said the business offers it even if Julie and her husband weren't availing themselves of it. In my opinion it encourages people to stick around. I think the fact that the waitresses were so welcoming and friendly, repeatedly refilling the coffee cups, also encouraged people to linger. If that's a problem in the manager's eyes and she thought Julie and her husband were abusing the privileges she should have encouraged the wait staff not to refill the cups. I don't really see the harm in Julie and DH's behavior if there weren't a ton of customers in the shop. It's not like it was Sunday morning at Lowell's Owl Diner with a line out the door and they were sitting there with nothing but coffee cups and laptops in front of them. I think the loser is the restaurant in this case.

[Robyncz]

Originally Posted by bobmark226

I should also have said that it's possible that this was once a problem for them, the problem was corrected, and they don't want to see it start again. For example, how do you differentiate it from, say, a bunch of kids stopping in after school and spending a similar amount of time? It's not a "hangout," really, for anyone; it's a restaurant.

Looking at it from another point of view, I know I wouldn't be comfortable doing what you did in a restaurant of any kind, which is not to say it's wrong, just that I wouldn't feel right about it.

Bob

I think this is interesting. So, you've never ordered breakfast at a diner and then sat and chatted for a long time with a friend? Maybe had a meal with a real estate agent and then gone over a bunch of listings before heading out? Ate breakfast or lunch on a day trip and then spent some time looking over maps and guidebooks trying to decide what to do next?

Because, really, around here at least, that kind of behavior is NOT out of the ordinary. That's what people do at diners. And, in my hood, there's always the table of retirees that come in every single morning who order a bowl of oatmeal and a coffee and then sit there for the whole morning.

Diners ARE hangouts, by cultural definition. Add wifi, and I believe the invitation is implicit.

[Robyncz]

Originally Posted by JulieM

There's a diner nearby that specializes in breakfast, so we've been going there afterwards for a late breakfast

They're EATING breakfast there. They're not just going in and having a glass of water!

[bobmark226]

Originally Posted by Robyncz

I think this is interesting. So, you've never ordered breakfast at a diner and then sat and chatted for a long time with a friend? Maybe had a meal with a real estate agent and then gone over a bunch of listings before heading out? Ate breakfast or lunch on a day trip and then spent some time looking over maps and guidebooks trying to decide what to do next?


Diners ARE hangouts, by cultural definition. Add wifi, and I believe the invitation is implicit.

No, I can't say that I have, Robyn. Looking at Julie's situation, she specifically said it was a stop before they went on to do other errands, shopping, etc. Using that, no, I wouldn't linger, I'd be out and about doing those things, then I'd be going home, using my own computer or wi-fi connection, talking the issues or whatever needed to be done there too. I certainly wouldn't presume to sit there for an hour and a half. If I was traveling, I'd probably have the plans all set when the day began. I guess I'm a compulsive type that way, prefer to keep moving and am not a hanger-outer.

Whatever you think the "cultural definition" is, you don't know that that particular diner is a hangout, do you? Isn't what it is, how it's used or what it becomes the owner's business? AGAIN, if it were my place, it isn't something I'd be comfortable with, nor would I be comfortable hanging out. A group of seniors having their oatmeal and chatting, yes, I understand, but that's THAT place and it's established behavior that certainly happens in small towns.

And again, the apparent owner was obviously rude since Julie says they apologized at length and she continued to be so. She could have handled it better, made the policy clear nicely, been more gracious, but I also don't think it's anybody else's place to determine what a restaurant is or isn't. Don't like their practices, don't go!

Bob

[Robyncz]

Originally Posted by bobmark226

Don't like their practices, don't go!

Bob

I COMPLETELY agree with this. There's no way I'd go back there.

[JulieM]

Thanks all for the feedback! I was telling DH what you guys said and he reminded me of something I didn't mention earlier. On more than one occasion I've apologized to the waitress about us hanging out so long, and each time we have been very reassured that it's no problem for us to hang out as long as we like. So again, we are not insensitive to the fact that some places are not cool with customers just hanging out, but we had totally been made to feel that it was fine. And the times when they were busy, we did what any decent customer would do and that is eat and leave to free up the table.

I'm pretty certain the woman who spoke to us was the owner. It seems strange to me that she didn't simply tell the wait staff not to automatically continue topping off coffee cups after a customer has passed a reasonable sit time at the table. And certainly not reassure us that it's ok for us to sit as long as we like.

So while I absolutely agree with what Bob said, I think in this case we did nothing wrong. Having put it into words and then follow this discussion, I feel much better about it and realize the problem is with the owner and her lack of instruction to her staff and apparent inability to advise a customer about something politely. I witnessed her being upset with another customer a few weeks ago, and she was visibly upset with the customer however the customer totally deserved it so I didn't think anything of it. (It was a screaming baby situation that was unbelievable and the mother refused to hold the child to quiet him/her. I thought the child was going to start hyperventilating.)

So thanks all for letting me get this off my chest. The place had become an "old friend" and the situation was like a slap in the face--such a shock! I don't know why I took it so personal but I did, and I can tell DH did too. He said he woke up in the middle of the night and it was on his mind.

[bobmark226]

Originally Posted by JulieM

So thanks all for letting me get this off my chest. The place had become an "old friend" and the situation was like a slap in the face--such a shock! I don't know why I took it so personal but I did, and I can tell DH did too. He said he woke up in the middle of the night and it was on his mind.

I can certainly understand that. I'm likely to take any kind of situation like that to bed with me, Julie, and maybe for a day or two longer.

I really appreciate that you didn't take my different POV personally either.

Bob

[Canice]

As dear old mum used to say, "It ain't what ya say, it's the way what ya say it."
If the owner has a problem with lingering guests there is an appropriate way to address it. And that was not it.

Personally, I would rather have customers in my restaurant than have it empty - more appealing to passers-by.

[TKay]

Originally Posted by Canice

As dear old mum used to say, "It ain't what ya say, it's the way what ya say it."
If the owner has a problem with lingering guests there is an appropriate way to address it. And that was not it.

Personally, I would rather have customers in my restaurant than have it empty - more appealing to passers-by.

I completely agree. Btw, I don't think you're overreacting to the situation at all. I would be upset as well. You thought you had a good relationship with the people at this restaurant. For this person to treat you so rudely makes it look like you were wrong. I agree with Canice, though. If the owner/manager had a problem with your "loitering," there was a more respectful way to handle it.

[Gilgamesh37]

Originally Posted by bobmark226

No, I can't say that I have, Robyn.
Bob

I find this sort of amazing, Bob. I like you just fine on the BB, but if I ever tried to eat a meal with you, I think I might have to kill you.

I'd be upset too Julie. I think the owner handled it incredibly poorly, and the establishment is sending very mixed signals. To paraphrase George Constanza: it's not you, it's them.

I do think WiFi extends the implicit invitation to sit and linger a while (assuming there's not a line of people waiting). I live in a college town, so people in coffee shops and cafes and diners for hours with coffee and study materials and laptops is an absolute given. Yesterday I stopped to grab a sandwich from a place downtown--it's actually 2 places that share a big open (but indoor) seating area. There were so many students along one wall using their laptops that the staff had brought out a power strip so there would be enough outlets for everyone to plug in.

[ljt2r]

There is a big difference between having the policy and how the woman handled it. That's appalling--to be so rude to regular customers!

I actually do not ever think of diners as places to linger--I think of them as in and out places. Having said that, if the place were empty it would never occur to me it was a problem either. And I agree that wifi is an invitation to linger. Basically, while I sympathize with parts of Bob's POV, I ultimately don't think that it addresses the real issue here: how unbelievably rude the woman was and how little warning the you were given how considerate you tried to be.

PS The B&Ns I've been, or at least many of them, still have the chairs. FWIW.

[bobmark226]

Originally Posted by Gilgamesh37

I find this sort of amazing, Bob. I like you just fine on the BB, but if I ever tried to eat a meal with you, I think I might have to kill you.

Adding to my list of eccentricities here, I pretty much refuse to eat breakfast or, often, even brunch out, excepting traveling, because I can do my own eggs, pork products, pancakes, French toast just fine myself and more cheaply.

We can make that lunch or dinner then, but if you start hanging out, expect me to start twitching. Certainly after several cups of coffee, which I mostly don't order out along with dessert either.

Laura, I said several times that the woman's behavior was inexcusable. And honestly, we had so many exchanges about bad manners here, which no one here apparently has ever had , or admitted to, I felt there was another issue here, especially since Julie wrote a very long post about it.

And again, no matter what anyone else thinks is "implicit," it's the owner who determines policy, like it or not.

Bob

[ljt2r]

Originally Posted by bobmark226

Adding to my list of eccentricities here, I pretty much refuse to eat breakfast or, often, even brunch out, excepting traveling, because I can do my own eggs, pork products, pancakes, French toast just fine myself and more cheaply.

We can make that lunch or dinner then, but if you start hanging out, expect me to start twitching. Certainly after several cups of coffee, which I mostly don't order out along with dessert either.

Laura, I said several times that the woman's behavior was inexcusable. And honestly, we had so many exchanges about bad manners here, which no one here apparently has ever had , or admitted to, I felt there was another issue here, especially since Julie wrote a very long post about it.

And again, no matter what anyone else thinks is "implicit," it's the owner who determines policy, like it or not.

Bob

Sorry I think I missed it by the end.

Why I think I should give advice and direct toddlers at the same time is beyond me!

[Gecko]

I think that the manager or owner handled this badly. Even if there is a policy about not overstaying your welcome I find most places here don't bother to enforce it unless the place is busy, and then I think they have the right to do so. Canice's mom was right on the mark - there is a nice way and a rude way of saying what needs to be said. I overheard one server at a cafe here say something like "we have enjoyed having you here today and hope you have enjoyed it too but we do have some other customers waiting for seats now so if you wouldn't mind finishing up soon we would appreciate it". However, if it is almost empty I don't see the harm in letting your customers linger and enjoy their time. Also, you mentioned that you left a generous tip for the waitresses so I guess the manager really sabotaged that for them, and if they aren't busy, they aren't going to recoup that loss.

[Kristilyn1]

I'm confused as to why it would be okay to hang out with a cup of coffee and your laptop at a coffee shop that offers wifi and not a diner.

I'm also puzzled by the idea that having wifi is NOT an implied offer of a hangout. If you want people to eat and leave.......you wouldn't offer a service that is so decidedly *not* needed in order to accomplish that. I can't think of any urgent reason to shovel in your food while you spend 3 minutes doing work on a laptop. Wifi is routinely offered at places where it is expected or invited for you to "hang out". A reasonable person would expect that. If it is your place of business, and you don't want people "hanging out", availing themselves of the "free service" then don't offer it.

While Bob is right, if the person owns the business they are welcome to do whatever the heck they want and we all have to like it or lump it......I do think they are sending a mixed message and that's a problem. The person is a dumbass and I'd be the first person to point that out in a letter---first, because they may NOT own the business and be representing the business in a manner that the owner would not like, and two, I think it's important to at least point out YOUR point of view and how their behavior was perceived and what it means for said business. A simple discreet sign about what your expectation of table use is, would go a long way toward elminating any issues on either side.

Bob, I believe you when you say that you must not go out for breakfast very often, because the idea of lingering in a diner, assuming it is not busy---is the very nature of the experience in just about every corner of New England that I have lived in or visited. I would have to assume this could be the case in other areas of the country as well.

Kristi

[VAcooker]

Originally Posted by Kristilyn1

I'm confused as to why it would be okay to hang out with a cup of coffee and your laptop at a coffee shop that offers wifi and not a diner.

I'm also puzzled by the idea that having wifi is NOT an implied offer of a hangout. If you want people to eat and leave.......you wouldn't offer a service that is so decidedly *not* needed in order to accomplish that. I can't think of any urgent reason to shovel in your food while you spend 3 minutes doing work on a laptop. Wifi is routinely offered at places where it is expected or invited for you to "hang out". A reasonable person would expect that. If it is your place of business, and you don't want people "hanging out", availing themselves of the "free service" then don't offer it. Kristi

I agree with Kristi--if you dont want people to linger--do not offer an inducement to encourage them to do so.

I also am curious as to how long is 'reasonable' to spend eating a meal at a diner. 45 minutes? One hour? Let's assume that it is reasonable to spend one hour eating your breakfast at a diner. So the owner is busting the OP's chops for spending an extra 1/2 hour during a time when the diner is not crowded? Geesh. At the diner I frequent, I spend at least an hour--maybe more if my DDs and I get involved in a good conversation--and I think we eat too quickly! I would be really bothered if we were rushed out. I can understand why the OP is upset.

[oct2189]

Julie,
I totally agree with your shock and horror at being treated in such a way by a business where you'd consistantly been a revenue source.
My only thought is that in your OP you mentioned that the waitresses chat with you, tease and keep trying to give you refills, which could mean that they spend too much time at your table, when they could be doing something else. (as a former waitress, I know that coffee shop waitresses do a lot of clean up when not busy.) Just a thought.